Bob Engelhardt wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote:
I have never seen a vacuum break on a water supply line to a hot water
tank, and it sounds completely useless.

I have seen plenty of them. As to "useless", I can't personally say.

First if your fire truck scenario even worked, it would be the
responsibility of the water system to install backflow preventers at
the turnouts to the houses.

Yeah, right.

Second, collapse of a tank is virtually
impossible because I don't know how you would be able to suck the
water out through the supply line. Water has a relatively low
adhesion rate, so a strong enough pull (vacuum) would break the water
column.

Second, if hot water tank lines did have vacuum breaks and there were
no back flow preventers and the firetruck made the water flow
"backwards," then the truck would soon be pumping water and air.

What would happen to the water if one end of a tangled system of pipes
filled with water is closed and a strong vacuum is put on the other
end? Nothing significant. Yes if you got a low enough pressure the
water would boil and vapor would be slowly drawn off.

Don't take "vacuum" too literally. They would more accurately be called
"negative pressure preventers". They let air in as soon as the water
pressure is less than atmospheric. So there is still absolute positive
pressure in the pipe and on the water.

What do you mean don't take it literally. I said
put a vacuum on one end, that's what I meant.
What negative pressure preventer? I didn't say
anything about a negative pressure preventer? I
set up a scenario and said what would happen. You
change the scenario? What's with that?

You are not going to crush a water tank (or any part of your water
system) by putting a vacuum on the system.

Water heaters are designed to hold pressure. It is very easy for a thin
wall tank to hold pressure (e.g., soda bottle). A thin wall does not
hold negative pressure ("vacuum") at all. I don't have figures, but I
would guess that a couple of psi would crush a tank. For example, a
tank 50" high and 30" in circumference has an area of 1500 sq in. 1 psi
would exert 1500 pounds force on the tank.

Awaiting an experienced reply,
Bob

At a perfect vacuum you are correct, with a
correction for the two ends the total pressure
would be 1500 pounds spread evenly over the
surface. And that impresses you? Do you know
that women in high heals can exert 200-300 psi on
the walking surface with each step. That
impresses me.

Seems like you have an experienced reply, George. You're doing enough of
it.

Bob Swinney
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote:
I have never seen a vacuum break on a water supply line to a hot water
tank, and it sounds completely useless.

I have seen plenty of them. As to "useless", I can't personally say.

First if your fire truck scenario even worked, it would be the
responsibility of the water system to install backflow preventers at the
turnouts to the houses.

Yeah, right.

Second, collapse of a tank is virtually
impossible because I don't know how you would be able to suck the water
out through the supply line. Water has a relatively low adhesion rate,
so a strong enough pull (vacuum) would break the water column.

Second, if hot water tank lines did have vacuum breaks and there were no
back flow preventers and the firetruck made the water flow "backwards,"
then the truck would soon be pumping water and air.

What would happen to the water if one end of a tangled system of pipes
filled with water is closed and a strong vacuum is put on the other end?
Nothing significant. Yes if you got a low enough pressure the water
would boil and vapor would be slowly drawn off.

Don't take "vacuum" too literally. They would more accurately be called
"negative pressure preventers". They let air in as soon as the water
pressure is less than atmospheric. So there is still absolute positive
pressure in the pipe and on the water.

What do you mean don't take it literally. I said put a vacuum on one end,
that's what I meant. What negative pressure preventer? I didn't say
anything about a negative pressure preventer? I set up a scenario and
said what would happen. You change the scenario? What's with that?

You are not going to crush a water tank (or any part of your water
system) by putting a vacuum on the system.

Water heaters are designed to hold pressure. It is very easy for a thin
wall tank to hold pressure (e.g., soda bottle). A thin wall does not
hold negative pressure ("vacuum") at all. I don't have figures, but I
would guess that a couple of psi would crush a tank. For example, a tank
50" high and 30" in circumference has an area of 1500 sq in. 1 psi would
exert 1500 pounds force on the tank.

Awaiting an experienced reply,
Bob

At a perfect vacuum you are correct, with a correction for the two ends
the total pressure would be 1500 pounds spread evenly over the surface.
And that impresses you? Do you know that women in high heals can exert
200-300 psi on the walking surface with each step. That impresses me.

"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Seems like you have an experienced reply, George. You're doing enough of
it.

Bob Swinney
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote:
I have never seen a vacuum break on a water supply line to a hot water
tank, and it sounds completely useless.

I have seen plenty of them. As to "useless", I can't personally say.

First if your fire truck scenario even worked, it would be the
responsibility of the water system to install backflow preventers at
the turnouts to the houses.

Yeah, right.

Second, collapse of a tank is virtually
impossible because I don't know how you would be able to suck the water
out through the supply line. Water has a relatively low adhesion rate,
so a strong enough pull (vacuum) would break the water column.

Second, if hot water tank lines did have vacuum breaks and there were
no back flow preventers and the firetruck made the water flow
"backwards," then the truck would soon be pumping water and air.

What would happen to the water if one end of a tangled system of pipes
filled with water is closed and a strong vacuum is put on the other
end? Nothing significant. Yes if you got a low enough pressure the
water would boil and vapor would be slowly drawn off.

Don't take "vacuum" too literally. They would more accurately be called
"negative pressure preventers". They let air in as soon as the water
pressure is less than atmospheric. So there is still absolute positive
pressure in the pipe and on the water.

What do you mean don't take it literally. I said put a vacuum on one
end, that's what I meant. What negative pressure preventer? I didn't say
anything about a negative pressure preventer? I set up a scenario and
said what would happen. You change the scenario? What's with that?

You are not going to crush a water tank (or any part of your water
system) by putting a vacuum on the system.

Water heaters are designed to hold pressure. It is very easy for a thin
wall tank to hold pressure (e.g., soda bottle). A thin wall does not
hold negative pressure ("vacuum") at all. I don't have figures, but I
would guess that a couple of psi would crush a tank. For example, a
tank 50" high and 30" in circumference has an area of 1500 sq in. 1 psi
would exert 1500 pounds force on the tank.

Awaiting an experienced reply,
Bob

At a perfect vacuum you are correct, with a correction for the two ends
the total pressure would be 1500 pounds spread evenly over the surface.
And that impresses you? Do you know that women in high heals can exert
200-300 psi on the walking surface with each step. That impresses me.


1 psi of pressure would exert 1 pound of force on the tank. Besides, water
tanks are not glorified soda cans, they have liners, insulation, and some
limited cross bracing.

I bet if you calculated the total force needed to crush a water tank under
vacuum it would be around 1000 psi

Eigenvector wrote:
1 psi of pressure would exert 1 pound of force on the tank. ...

I bet if you calculated the total force needed to crush a water tank under
vacuum it would be around 1000 psi

!!! Good one! I needed a good laugh! But please don't tell me that
you teach high school physics, that would take all the humor out of it
entirely. Hahahahaha ...

Bob