I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset? It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no contamination
in that regard.

"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no longer
be made after 2010.

If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset? It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:
"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no longer
be made after 2010.

If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset? It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

The Installers I've worked with on my last two projects were pretty much in
the Majority of going with the new R410a. There were a few Old Timers that
tried to convince me that R410a is crap and they don't install it, though I
think it was that they were not a certified R410a installer and didn't want
to get up to speed. The Bigger companies and the newer companies only
installed R410a. If you really wanted the R22 they would.

If you have to tear into walls and its going to cost you a bit to get it in
the wall, etc, then you might want to stick with R22, if you have easy
access to the lineset its not going to be that much to run a new one for the
R410a

Scott-


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...
Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:
"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.

If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset? It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

Is it not the case that newly made compressors are DESIGNED to work the
R410a refrigerant formula, and that using the R22 formula MAY cause
damage to the compressor?



Scott Townsend wrote:
The Installers I've worked with on my last two projects were pretty much in
the Majority of going with the new R410a. There were a few Old Timers that
tried to convince me that R410a is crap and they don't install it, though I
think it was that they were not a certified R410a installer and didn't want
to get up to speed. The Bigger companies and the newer companies only
installed R410a. If you really wanted the R22 they would.

If you have to tear into walls and its going to cost you a bit to get it in
the wall, etc, then you might want to stick with R22, if you have easy
access to the lineset its not going to be that much to run a new one for the
R410a

Scott-


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:

"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...

I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.



R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.


If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset? It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

Yes, but I think most companies are still offering both types of
compressors. I haven't gotten a comparitive estimate yet for a 410
system. The guy yesterday just wrote up an estimate for an R22 system
using the existing linesets. I didn't even know it was R22 until I
took a closer look at the model number and the brochure. I just
assumed all new systems were R410. Maybe he's trying to push an R22
system on me so as to get rid of them while he still can. For the next
estimate, I will be sure to ask about an R410 system. I'm hoping it
won't be much more expensive.

Robert Gammon wrote:
Is it not the case that newly made compressors are DESIGNED to work the
R410a refrigerant formula, and that using the R22 formula MAY cause
damage to the compressor?



Scott Townsend wrote:
The Installers I've worked with on my last two projects were pretty much in
the Majority of going with the new R410a. There were a few Old Timers that
tried to convince me that R410a is crap and they don't install it, though I
think it was that they were not a certified R410a installer and didn't want
to get up to speed. The Bigger companies and the newer companies only
installed R410a. If you really wanted the R22 they would.

If you have to tear into walls and its going to cost you a bit to get it in
the wall, etc, then you might want to stick with R22, if you have easy
access to the lineset its not going to be that much to run a new one for the
R410a

Scott-


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:

"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...

I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.



R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.


If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset? It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

Its nothing to do with the compressor(yes they are designed for specific
refrigerants).... its everything to do with the incompatability of the oils
and refrigerants.

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
om...
Is it not the case that newly made compressors are DESIGNED to work the
R410a refrigerant formula, and that using the R22 formula MAY cause damage
to the compressor?



Scott Townsend wrote:
The Installers I've worked with on my last two projects were pretty much
in the Majority of going with the new R410a. There were a few Old Timers
that tried to convince me that R410a is crap and they don't install it,
though I think it was that they were not a certified R410a installer and
didn't want to get up to speed. The Bigger companies and the newer
companies only installed R410a. If you really wanted the R22 they would.

If you have to tear into walls and its going to cost you a bit to get it
in the wall, etc, then you might want to stick with R22, if you have easy
access to the lineset its not going to be that much to run a new one for
the R410a

Scott-


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:

"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...

I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best
to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.



R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.


If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset?
It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no
contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:31:10 GMT, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:

The Installers I've worked with on my last two projects were pretty much in
the Majority of going with the new R410a. There were a few Old Timers that
tried to convince me that R410a is crap and they don't install it, though I
think it was that they were not a certified R410a installer and didn't want
to get up to speed. The Bigger companies and the newer companies only
installed R410a. If you really wanted the R22 they would.

If you have to tear into walls and its going to cost you a bit to get it in
the wall, etc, then you might want to stick with R22, if you have easy
access to the lineset its not going to be that much to run a new one for the
R410a

Scott-


Companys are driven not by what is right, but the bottom line.

Are R410a's more expensive? If so, then the profit margin would be
higher.

Do the math.

tom


"RAJ" wrote in message
ups.com...
Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:
"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.

If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset? It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

"RAJ" wrote in message
ups.com...
Yes, but I think most companies are still offering both types of
compressors.

Its a UNIT, not a compressor. The compressor does not care what refrigerant
is in it, or what oil is in it.
You can have one compressor that can handle 5 different refrigerants, but
R410A is NOT compatable with the oil in R22 units. How do you think the
compressor gets lubed? Its not magic, its by transfer and compatability of
the oil in the unit.

I haven't gotten a comparitive estimate yet for a 410
system. The guy yesterday just wrote up an estimate for an R22 system
using the existing linesets. I didn't even know it was R22 until I
took a closer look at the model number and the brochure. I just
assumed all new systems were R410. Maybe he's trying to push an R22
system on me so as to get rid of them while he still can. For the next
estimate, I will be sure to ask about an R410 system. I'm hoping it
won't be much more expensive.


R22 units are still being made. They didnt dissapear. I can get up to 16SEER
now in R22 and if thats what the person wants, after looking at both quotes,
thats what he gets.
Fine with me, since R22 is getting higher and higher, its his wallet, not
mine. You go with what you feel comfortable with in your home. No ones
complaining about R410A units when they are installed right. and they
install very similar to R22 units, it is when the unit has to be opened
after the install that REALLY matters.



Right now, Im getting 410A units for about the same price, but thats not the
point. You are thinking here and now pricing, not what it will cost in 4 or
5 years to repair it when it fails, and they DO fail.
Smart money is on R410A, and those that are going with R22 are going to be
surprised if the installer/repair tech in a few years is not using NU22 or
something similar, as the price of R22 is going up daily.
R410A prices are dropping.


R410A...its not crap. Its different, and those that are not trained in it
dont have a clue. They only know what they think they know, and not the
facts.

Robert Gammon wrote:
Is it not the case that newly made compressors are DESIGNED to work the
R410a refrigerant formula, and that using the R22 formula MAY cause
damage to the compressor?


Nope...you can not run R22 in a system designed for 410a..look up on google
how a unit is lubed, and how the refrigerant used, will determine the type
of oil used.
I figure in a couple more years, we are going to start to see all types of
failures from idiots putting R22 in R410 systems, EVEN THOUGH the units are
clearly marked.



Scott Townsend wrote:
The Installers I've worked with on my last two projects were pretty
much in
the Majority of going with the new R410a. There were a few Old Timers
that
tried to convince me that R410a is crap and they don't install it,
though I
think it was that they were not a certified R410a installer and didn't
want
to get up to speed. The Bigger companies and the newer companies only
installed R410a. If you really wanted the R22 they would.

If you have to tear into walls and its going to cost you a bit to get
it in
the wall, etc, then you might want to stick with R22, if you have easy
access to the lineset its not going to be that much to run a new one
for the
R410a

Scott-


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:

"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...

I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best
to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar
in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.



R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made
will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.


If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset?
It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no
contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if
you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

RAJ writes:

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

No. R22 is superior to R410 in every physical respect. The only issue is
availability of R22, which is to be artificially restricted by men with
guns (i.e., the gummint), not by the market. But this is not supposed to
happen for longer than your system today will last.

Go to epatest.com and get an EPA license and stock up on R-22 while it is
still legal. The people who did this with R-12 in 1992 made a fortune,
buying at $1/lb and reselling 5 or 10 years later for $50/lb.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
RAJ writes:

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

No. R22 is superior to R410 in every physical respect. The only issue is
availability of R22, which is to be artificially restricted by men with
guns (i.e., the gummint), not by the market. But this is not supposed to
happen for longer than your system today will last.

Go to epatest.com and get an EPA license and stock up on R-22 while it is
still legal. The people who did this with R-12 in 1992 made a fortune,
buying at $1/lb and reselling 5 or 10 years later for $50/lb.

With systems already being designed for the likes of NU22, Im not sure this
will be the case this time.

wrote in message
...
"aka-SBM" wrote:


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
1...
RAJ writes:

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

No. R22 is superior to R410 in every physical respect. The only issue
is
availability of R22, which is to be artificially restricted by men with
guns (i.e., the gummint), not by the market. But this is not supposed
to
happen for longer than your system today will last.

Go to epatest.com and get an EPA license and stock up on R-22 while it
is
still legal. The people who did this with R-12 in 1992 made a fortune,
buying at $1/lb and reselling 5 or 10 years later for $50/lb.

With systems already being designed for the likes of NU22, Im not sure
this
will be the case this time.



what you seem to be overlooking is the bazillions of existing
commercial and residentail systems that DO contain R-22.

Kinda like all those vehicles with R12?


Do you think that all this gas will be vented? Burned or destroyed?
Not recovered & reclaimed?

Ok...point taken...

But...

Look up NU22, from ICOR.


And what about the countries that havent signed on board the Montreal
Protocol? I'll bet they have gazillions more systems running r-22,
until hell freezes over.

On 14 Jun 2006 09:27:42 -0700, "RAJ" wrote:

It's difficult to understand because the guy today said it was TOTALLY
uneccesary. It's only necessary if you need a different sized tubing,
which I don't. Plus, who in the hell knows how much extra it would
cost to rip the thing out. Why would I want to pay for something extra
that I don't need??? That's the difficult part to understand.
He said there were concerns a few years ago about mixing the oils, but
basically those concerns have proven to be unfounded. Of he's going to
vacuum it out during the install, so that should get rid of most of it
anyway.

Carrier, who I think it's fair to say knows about 410 at least as much
as anyone else, is not as concerned about the oil as they were
initially. Replace the line set when switching to 410 if it's
practical. But, If the vertical sections are in walls, don't worry
about them but replace the accessible horizontal sections which are
more likely to have small amounts of oil trapped in them. That's
according to Carrier. I would recommend blowing nitrogen through the
lines that are being re-used anyway.

Anyone who makes a big deal about the price of either refrigerant must
be planning on going back to put lots more in. Your system will not
consume it like a car consumes gas, so why is that even an issue? The
average system holds maybe five or six pounds, so what's the big deal,
even if it all has to be replaced once in the life of the system?
Nothing wrong with 410 at all, and 22 will probably still be available
by the time your system needs to be replaced again. I would tend to
go with 410 just because the wider range of equipment choices at this
point is with 410.



Zephyr wrote:
Run a new lineset and abandon the old.... what's so difficult to understand
about that. [Otherwise, you could use the older lineset provided it has
less than 5% of the mineral oil left from the R-22 after the install.] But
I'd prefer a new lineset if its at all possible.

--
Zyp
"Scott Townsend" wrote in message
. com...
The Installers I've worked with on my last two projects were pretty much
in
the Majority of going with the new R410a. There were a few Old Timers
that
tried to convince me that R410a is crap and they don't install it, though
I
think it was that they were not a certified R410a installer and didn't
want
to get up to speed. The Bigger companies and the newer companies only
installed R410a. If you really wanted the R22 they would.

If you have to tear into walls and its going to cost you a bit to get it
in
the wall, etc, then you might want to stick with R22, if you have easy
access to the lineset its not going to be that much to run a new one for
the
R410a

Scott-


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...
Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:
"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best
to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.

If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset?
It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no
contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

Wise? Your call.

I will NOT have R410a in my house until I have NO OTHER choice. Personal
opinion.

R22 will be around for 14 more years. Before it's all gone, I think (feel,
hope, pray) there will be a better choice than R410a.

And if anyone's wondering, that's the last I will say on this, so don't ask
questions about why I won't have R410a in my house.


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...
Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:
"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best
to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.

If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset?
It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no
contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

I emailed my potential contractor (sales guy) with questions about
switching over and replacing the lineset. The installation manager
called me back within a short period of time and gave me some helpful
info on this:

1. In a switchover, they will replace the lineset if its easy. He said
the manf recomend changing the line, but that's nothing new, they've
ALWAYS recomended changing the line even in the old days.
2. If its not easy (i.e., a ceiling needs to be torn up), they will
only recommend a replace if they feel its necessary, i.e., if they see
that oil has been trapped in there or is dripping out of the horizontal
section. He said the oil usually doesn't settle in the horizontal
section anyway.
3. They will do a nitrogen purge of course. He said he's heard of using
a cleansing solvent as well, but said he usually doesn't use it, as it
can introduce foreign substances as well into the tubing.
4. He installed a 410 in his own house because he got a good deal on
it.
5. Also said he expects R22 to be around longer than either of us.
American Standard's 18 SEER is R22 so obviously they expect it to be
around a while.
6. The decison to switch over or not should be based more on the cost
or quality of the unit rather than the particular refrigerant involved.

Well, it was a pleasure talking to a professional who took the time to
explain things thoroughly. I look forward to receiving their quote in
the mail.



HeatMan wrote:
Wise? Your call.

I will NOT have R410a in my house until I have NO OTHER choice. Personal
opinion.

R22 will be around for 14 more years. Before it's all gone, I think (feel,
hope, pray) there will be a better choice than R410a.

And if anyone's wondering, that's the last I will say on this, so don't ask
questions about why I won't have R410a in my house.


"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...
Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

HeatMan wrote:
"RAJ" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to upgrade my AC, probably to a 13 or 14 SEER. Is is best
to
just stick with the R22 in this case? When will R22 become more
expensive than R410? From what I understand the units are similar in
price, so that shouldn't be an issue.


R22 refrigerant will be manufactured until 2020. They amount made will
drop
annually, but it will still be made. The equipment using R22 will no
longer
be made after 2010.

If I do stick with R22, is there any need to replace the lineset?
It's
15 years old? The compressor hasn't failed though, so no
contamination
in that regard.


If the lines are sized properly, they shouldn't need replacement if you
go
back with R22. If you go with R410a, you should have them replaced.

Anyone who makes a big deal about the price of either refrigerant must
be planning on going back to put lots more in. Your system will not
consume it like a car consumes gas, so why is that even an issue? The
average system holds maybe five or six pounds, so what's the big deal,
even if it all has to be replaced once in the life of the system?
Nothing wrong with 410 at all, and 22 will probably still be available
by the time your system needs to be replaced again. I would tend to
go with 410 just because the wider range of equipment choices at this
point is with 410.

The big deal is the old 10SEER systems that used to only that 5 or 6 pounds
are now gone, the new ones are 13+SEER and are holding 16 - 20 pounds of
refrigerent. The wholesale price of refrigerents have quadrupled in the last
year and a half.

In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote:

RAJ writes:

Do you think it would be wise to switch over to 410?

No. R22 is superior to R410 in every physical respect. The only issue is
availability of R22, which is to be artificially restricted by men with
guns (i.e., the gummint), not by the market.....

When R22 is no longer 'availiable' your local drug smuggler will be
happy to get you some....

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

RAJ writes:

No. R22 is superior to R410 in every physical respect.

Why do you say it is superior physically? How so?

Thermodynamic efficiency. Operating pressure.

"RAJ" wrote in message
ps.com...
I emailed my potential contractor (sales guy) with questions about
switching over and replacing the lineset. The installation manager
called me back within a short period of time and gave me some helpful
info on this:

1. In a switchover, they will replace the lineset if its easy. He said
the manf recomend changing the line, but that's nothing new, they've
ALWAYS recomended changing the line even in the old days.

If you go with R410a, replace the line set. Period, end of statement.

2. If its not easy (i.e., a ceiling needs to be torn up), they will
only recommend a replace if they feel its necessary, i.e., if they see
that oil has been trapped in there or is dripping out of the horizontal
section. He said the oil usually doesn't settle in the horizontal
section anyway.

If there's a sag, oil will be trapped.

3. They will do a nitrogen purge of course. He said he's heard of using
a cleansing solvent as well, but said he usually doesn't use it, as it
can introduce foreign substances as well into the tubing.

I don't use cleaners, I replace the line set.

4. He installed a 410 in his own house because he got a good deal on
it.

R i g h t

5. Also said he expects R22 to be around longer than either of us.
American Standard's 18 SEER is R22 so obviously they expect it to be
around a while.

That statement, I can agree with. Now the question is, will you be able to
afford it?

6. The decison to switch over or not should be based more on the cost
or quality of the unit rather than the particular refrigerant involved.

Whatever.


Well, it was a pleasure talking to a professional who took the time to
explain things thoroughly. I look forward to receiving their quote in
the mail.


Good luck.