I have an outdoor patio 11x40. The concrete slab has some 1/32" heat
expansion cracks,
unsightly but not really structural.

To improve the appearance I would like to put a layer of split pavers
(bricks, 1 1/4" thick) on top
of the concrete slab, without gluing them down and without joining the
bricks by mortar or grout. By abutting the bricks it should not matter if
the small
cracks work a little in the future. The split pavers will be enclosed by
walls on all sides. Any tiny voids between the bricks will be filled in with
brushed sand.

I do not have vertical space for standard pavers (thresholds).

Is this feasible? Thank you for any input.


Walter
www.rationality.net


--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-

Walter R. wrote:
I have an outdoor patio 11x40. The concrete slab has some 1/32" heat
expansion cracks,
unsightly but not really structural.

To improve the appearance I would like to put a layer of split pavers
(bricks, 1 1/4" thick) on top
of the concrete slab, without gluing them down and without joining the
bricks by mortar or grout. By abutting the bricks it should not matter if
the small
cracks work a little in the future. The split pavers will be enclosed by
walls on all sides. Any tiny voids between the bricks will be filled in with
brushed sand.

I do not have vertical space for standard pavers (thresholds).

Is this feasible? Thank you for any input.

I know that you don't have much space, but try to get a layer of coarse
sand between the concrete and the pavers. In fact, concrete sand
pavers is how the pro's do paver driveways.

Walter R. wrote:
I have an outdoor patio 11x40. The concrete slab has some 1/32" heat
expansion cracks,
unsightly but not really structural.

To improve the appearance I would like to put a layer of split pavers
(bricks, 1 1/4" thick) on top
of the concrete slab, without gluing them down and without joining the
bricks by mortar or grout. By abutting the bricks it should not matter if
the small
cracks work a little in the future. The split pavers will be enclosed by
walls on all sides. Any tiny voids between the bricks will be filled in with
brushed sand.

I do not have vertical space for standard pavers (thresholds).

Is this feasible? Thank you for any input.


Walter
www.rationality.net



I demolished a patio about 12X15 that was brick over concrete slab
pretty much as you describe except that mine had the perimeter bricks
concreted into place. The patio seemed solid enough but the sanded
joints were always sprouting places for weeds and grasses and that
ruined the look. I salvaged all the thin paver bricks and am still
trying to figure out something useful to do with them.

BTW I had to demolish two patios of similar size on my house because
both of them were very cleverly built so they were (or shifted so that
they) pitched toward the house which made for interesting waterworks
during torrential downpours.

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

Walter R. wrote:
I have an outdoor patio 11x40. The concrete slab has some 1/32" heat
expansion cracks,
unsightly but not really structural.

To improve the appearance I would like to put a layer of split pavers
(bricks, 1 1/4" thick) on top
of the concrete slab, without gluing them down and without joining the
bricks by mortar or grout. By abutting the bricks it should not matter if
the small
cracks work a little in the future. The split pavers will be enclosed by
walls on all sides. Any tiny voids between the bricks will be filled in with
brushed sand.

I do not have vertical space for standard pavers (thresholds).

Is this feasible? Thank you for any input.


Walter
www.rationality.net


We put 1/2-inch of sand over an old, cracked concrete patio and then
laid pavers. All is well after 2+ years, but as others mentioned, some
weeds will try to sprout in the gaps between pavers.

Walter R. wrote:
I have an outdoor patio 11x40. The concrete slab has some 1/32" heat
expansion cracks,
unsightly but not really structural.

To improve the appearance I would like to put a layer of split pavers
(bricks, 1 1/4" thick) on top
of the concrete slab, without gluing them down and without joining the
bricks by mortar or grout. By abutting the bricks it should not
matter if the small
cracks work a little in the future. The split pavers will be enclosed
by walls on all sides. Any tiny voids between the bricks will be
filled in with brushed sand.

I do not have vertical space for standard pavers (thresholds).

Is this feasible? Thank you for any input.


Walter
www.rationality.net

I suggest a bed of sand under the brick.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

What would be the advantage of a layer of sand? How thick a layer do you
have in mind?

If I lay the brick directly on the concrete, albeit with hairline cracks,
would that not be more stable and less apt to generate weeds?

Thanks

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
...
Walter R. wrote:
I have an outdoor patio 11x40. The concrete slab has some 1/32" heat
expansion cracks,
unsightly but not really structural.

To improve the appearance I would like to put a layer of split pavers
(bricks, 1 1/4" thick) on top
of the concrete slab, without gluing them down and without joining the
bricks by mortar or grout. By abutting the bricks it should not
matter if the small
cracks work a little in the future. The split pavers will be enclosed
by walls on all sides. Any tiny voids between the bricks will be
filled in with brushed sand.

I do not have vertical space for standard pavers (thresholds).

Is this feasible? Thank you for any input.


Walter
www.rationality.net

I suggest a bed of sand under the brick.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Walter R. wrote:
What would be the advantage of a layer of sand? How thick a layer do you
have in mind?

Neither concrete slabs nor brick are perfectly flat. The high points
will concentrate stress and possibly crack the brick. Pavers are
stronger, so it'd be less of an issue, but the sand will make getting a
flat level surface to walk on easier. A 1/2" sand setting bed is fine.
Cheap insurance.

If I lay the brick directly on the concrete, albeit with hairline cracks,
would that not be more stable and less apt to generate weeds?

No. Those little hairline cracks are enough to let material enter.
Material that will consist of plant matter (read foor) and seeds (read
food eaters). You might not get growth right away, but when you do
it'll be tougher to get rid of the weeds.

If you're really concerned about stopping the weeds, they make
fortified sand mixes for filling the cracks between pavers. It's
brushed in, sets by sprinkling with water - best thing to prevent weeds
from getting started.

R

Great advice

Thank you

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...

Walter R. wrote:
What would be the advantage of a layer of sand? How thick a layer do you
have in mind?

Neither concrete slabs nor brick are perfectly flat. The high points
will concentrate stress and possibly crack the brick. Pavers are
stronger, so it'd be less of an issue, but the sand will make getting a
flat level surface to walk on easier. A 1/2" sand setting bed is fine.
Cheap insurance.

If I lay the brick directly on the concrete, albeit with hairline cracks,
would that not be more stable and less apt to generate weeds?

No. Those little hairline cracks are enough to let material enter.
Material that will consist of plant matter (read foor) and seeds (read
food eaters). You might not get growth right away, but when you do
it'll be tougher to get rid of the weeds.

If you're really concerned about stopping the weeds, they make
fortified sand mixes for filling the cracks between pavers. It's
brushed in, sets by sprinkling with water - best thing to prevent weeds
from getting started.

R

pe wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:02:48 GMT, "Walter R."
wrote:

Great advice

One or two layers of HEAVY roofing felt on the concrete will prevent
weeds, support the bricks, and prevent them from shifting.


It would not be my choice. I doubt if it would hold up nor provide the
ideal base.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

pe wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 20:02:48 GMT, "Walter R." wrote:

Great advice

One or two layers of HEAVY roofing felt on the concrete will prevent weeds,
support the bricks, and prevent them from shifting.

snip...


It probably won't stop the weeds, at least if his weeds are similar to
mine. Invariably I had weeds in the sanded cracks which resulted from
windblown seeds lodging there and sprouting. The warm bricks and damp
sand provided an ideal seed-sprouting environment. Having the roofing
felt under the bricks might actually make the environment warmer (a bit
of insulation from the slab) and moister (keeping water from running out
the bottom) thus accelerating the sprouting.

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

Walter,

You should have no problem doing this. I just finished a patio job over
Memorial Day weekend. I put 1-1/2" pavestones on top of an existing
concrete patio. I couldn't use the 2-3/8" thick pavestones because it
would put the patio too close to the level of my door threshold. I put
a 1" deep bed of sand on top of the patio and then laid the pavestone
brick on top of the sand. I then used a plate vibrator to tamp the
pavestones down and then swept sand into the cracks.

Don't just lay the brick on the concrete. The imperfections in the
concrete and brick will cause them "rock" and/or break when they are
walked on.

I actually made my patio larger than the existing concrete. I had to
excavate down about 4 to 6" where the concrete patio didn't cover and
then filled in with decomposed (crushed) granite. The granite was
tamped down tight and made level with the existing concrete patio.

Here are pictures of my project from start to finish:
http://s88848699.onlinehome.us/patio/Patio.htm

Regards,

Mike

Walter R. wrote:
I have an outdoor patio 11x40. The concrete slab has some 1/32" heat
expansion cracks,
unsightly but not really structural.

To improve the appearance I would like to put a layer of split pavers
(bricks, 1 1/4" thick) on top
of the concrete slab, without gluing them down and without joining the
bricks by mortar or grout. By abutting the bricks it should not matter if
the small
cracks work a little in the future. The split pavers will be enclosed by
walls on all sides. Any tiny voids between the bricks will be filled in with
brushed sand.

I do not have vertical space for standard pavers (thresholds).

Is this feasible? Thank you for any input.


Walter
www.rationality.net


--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-

n5psi wrote:
Walter,

You should have no problem doing this. I just finished a patio job over
Memorial Day weekend. I put 1-1/2" pavestones on top of an existing
concrete patio. I couldn't use the 2-3/8" thick pavestones because it
would put the patio too close to the level of my door threshold. I put
a 1" deep bed of sand on top of the patio and then laid the pavestone
brick on top of the sand. I then used a plate vibrator to tamp the
pavestones down and then swept sand into the cracks.

Don't just lay the brick on the concrete. The imperfections in the
concrete and brick will cause them "rock" and/or break when they are
walked on.

I actually made my patio larger than the existing concrete. I had to
excavate down about 4 to 6" where the concrete patio didn't cover and
then filled in with decomposed (crushed) granite. The granite was
tamped down tight and made level with the existing concrete patio.

Here are pictures of my project from start to finish:
http://s88848699.onlinehome.us/patio/Patio.htm

Looks nice. Good job.

R

Hi

Thank you very much for your excellent and detailed advice, especially the
photos.

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
n5psi wrote:
Walter,

You should have no problem doing this. I just finished a patio job over
Memorial Day weekend. I put 1-1/2" pavestones on top of an existing
concrete patio. I couldn't use the 2-3/8" thick pavestones because it
would put the patio too close to the level of my door threshold. I put
a 1" deep bed of sand on top of the patio and then laid the pavestone
brick on top of the sand. I then used a plate vibrator to tamp the
pavestones down and then swept sand into the cracks.

Don't just lay the brick on the concrete. The imperfections in the
concrete and brick will cause them "rock" and/or break when they are
walked on.

I actually made my patio larger than the existing concrete. I had to
excavate down about 4 to 6" where the concrete patio didn't cover and
then filled in with decomposed (crushed) granite. The granite was
tamped down tight and made level with the existing concrete patio.

Here are pictures of my project from start to finish:
http://s88848699.onlinehome.us/patio/Patio.htm

Looks nice. Good job.

R

Hi, again

In looking at you photos, it appears that you left a gap of about 1/2 inch
between brick. It looks like this gap was then filled with sand.

Is there a reason why you used gaps between bricks. Wouldn't it be more
stable if the bricks abutted each other?

Thanks again for all your help. You have saved me tons of time and money.

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
n5psi wrote:
Walter,

You should have no problem doing this. I just finished a patio job over
Memorial Day weekend. I put 1-1/2" pavestones on top of an existing
concrete patio. I couldn't use the 2-3/8" thick pavestones because it
would put the patio too close to the level of my door threshold. I put
a 1" deep bed of sand on top of the patio and then laid the pavestone
brick on top of the sand. I then used a plate vibrator to tamp the
pavestones down and then swept sand into the cracks.

Don't just lay the brick on the concrete. The imperfections in the
concrete and brick will cause them "rock" and/or break when they are
walked on.

I actually made my patio larger than the existing concrete. I had to
excavate down about 4 to 6" where the concrete patio didn't cover and
then filled in with decomposed (crushed) granite. The granite was
tamped down tight and made level with the existing concrete patio.

Here are pictures of my project from start to finish:
http://s88848699.onlinehome.us/patio/Patio.htm

Looks nice. Good job.

R

Walter R. wrote:
Hi, again

In looking at you photos, it appears that you left a gap of about 1/2 inch
between brick. It looks like this gap was then filled with sand.

Is there a reason why you used gaps between bricks. Wouldn't it be more
stable if the bricks abutted each other?

Thanks again for all your help. You have saved me tons of time and money.

Walter, you're replying to my post when n5psi is the one who posted the
link to his patio pictures.

If you look at one of his close-up pictures, you can see where two
parallel bricks but up against a perpendicular one, and you'll notice
that the joint lines all line up. If you buy paver brick, they're
usually made modular - the width is half of the length so you don't
need any joint space. n5psi used brick that wasn't modular and the
joint width is required to make things line up.

There are benefits and disadvantages of each style, but if you compact
the base and sweep in sand, compact again, then the wider joint will be
very stable.

R

Thanks for pinch-hitting, RicodJour :-)

Have a great Sunday

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...

Walter R. wrote:
Hi, again

In looking at you photos, it appears that you left a gap of about 1/2
inch
between brick. It looks like this gap was then filled with sand.

Is there a reason why you used gaps between bricks. Wouldn't it be more
stable if the bricks abutted each other?

Thanks again for all your help. You have saved me tons of time and money.

Walter, you're replying to my post when n5psi is the one who posted the
link to his patio pictures.

If you look at one of his close-up pictures, you can see where two
parallel bricks but up against a perpendicular one, and you'll notice
that the joint lines all line up. If you buy paver brick, they're
usually made modular - the width is half of the length so you don't
need any joint space. n5psi used brick that wasn't modular and the
joint width is required to make things line up.

There are benefits and disadvantages of each style, but if you compact
the base and sweep in sand, compact again, then the wider joint will be
very stable.

R

Walter,

The bricks are in fact placed against each other. There is a ridge on
the edges of the brick that makes the space about 1/8" between them
when they are butted up against each other as mine are. The brick I am
using is Pavestone brand and the model is the "Claylook Thin". They are
not shown on their website (http://www.pavestone.com) but Home Depot
carries them. They are the same size (width and length) as the Holland
Stone they carry, only thinner.

Regards,

Mike

Walter R. wrote:
Hi, again

In looking at you photos, it appears that you left a gap of about 1/2 inch
between brick. It looks like this gap was then filled with sand.

Is there a reason why you used gaps between bricks. Wouldn't it be more
stable if the bricks abutted each other?

Thanks again for all your help. You have saved me tons of time and money.

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
n5psi wrote:
Walter,

You should have no problem doing this. I just finished a patio job over
Memorial Day weekend. I put 1-1/2" pavestones on top of an existing
concrete patio. I couldn't use the 2-3/8" thick pavestones because it
would put the patio too close to the level of my door threshold. I put
a 1" deep bed of sand on top of the patio and then laid the pavestone
brick on top of the sand. I then used a plate vibrator to tamp the
pavestones down and then swept sand into the cracks.

Don't just lay the brick on the concrete. The imperfections in the
concrete and brick will cause them "rock" and/or break when they are
walked on.

I actually made my patio larger than the existing concrete. I had to
excavate down about 4 to 6" where the concrete patio didn't cover and
then filled in with decomposed (crushed) granite. The granite was
tamped down tight and made level with the existing concrete patio.

Here are pictures of my project from start to finish:
http://s88848699.onlinehome.us/patio/Patio.htm

Looks nice. Good job.

R

Thanks, Mike, for all your generous help. Now, all I have to do is build the
darned patio. Reminds me of Legoland! LOL (Right in our backyard here in San
Diego)

Your patio looks terrific. You did a precision job. Especially with the
herringbone pattern

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"n5psi" wrote in message
oups.com...
Walter,

The bricks are in fact placed against each other. There is a ridge on
the edges of the brick that makes the space about 1/8" between them
when they are butted up against each other as mine are. The brick I am
using is Pavestone brand and the model is the "Claylook Thin". They are
not shown on their website (http://www.pavestone.com) but Home Depot
carries them. They are the same size (width and length) as the Holland
Stone they carry, only thinner.

Regards,

Mike

Walter R. wrote:
Hi, again

In looking at you photos, it appears that you left a gap of about 1/2
inch
between brick. It looks like this gap was then filled with sand.

Is there a reason why you used gaps between bricks. Wouldn't it be more
stable if the bricks abutted each other?

Thanks again for all your help. You have saved me tons of time and money.

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
n5psi wrote:
Walter,

You should have no problem doing this. I just finished a patio job
over
Memorial Day weekend. I put 1-1/2" pavestones on top of an existing
concrete patio. I couldn't use the 2-3/8" thick pavestones because it
would put the patio too close to the level of my door threshold. I put
a 1" deep bed of sand on top of the patio and then laid the pavestone
brick on top of the sand. I then used a plate vibrator to tamp the
pavestones down and then swept sand into the cracks.

Don't just lay the brick on the concrete. The imperfections in the
concrete and brick will cause them "rock" and/or break when they are
walked on.

I actually made my patio larger than the existing concrete. I had to
excavate down about 4 to 6" where the concrete patio didn't cover and
then filled in with decomposed (crushed) granite. The granite was
tamped down tight and made level with the existing concrete patio.

Here are pictures of my project from start to finish:
http://s88848699.onlinehome.us/patio/Patio.htm

Looks nice. Good job.

R

"RicodJour" wrote:

-snip-
If you're really concerned about stopping the weeds, they make
fortified sand mixes for filling the cracks between pavers. It's
brushed in, sets by sprinkling with water - best thing to prevent weeds
from getting started.

I'd go with an Ortho product to kill weeds. You spray once a year &
it kills any existing weeds and prevents weed and grass seeds from
sprouting. The label says it is safe for pets and kids as soon as it
dries.

Jim

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:14:49 -0700, pe wrote:

One or two layers of HEAVY roofing felt on the concrete will prevent weeds,
support the bricks, and prevent them from shifting.

I doubt that it will do any of that. It certainly won't stop weeds
from growing between the pavers.

Jim

Walter R. wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
Walter R. wrote:

In looking at you photos, it appears that you left a gap of about 1/2
inch
between brick. It looks like this gap was then filled with sand.

Is there a reason why you used gaps between bricks. Wouldn't it be more
stable if the bricks abutted each other?

Thanks again for all your help. You have saved me tons of time and money.

Walter, you're replying to my post when n5psi is the one who posted the
link to his patio pictures.

If you look at one of his close-up pictures, you can see where two
parallel bricks but up against a perpendicular one, and you'll notice
that the joint lines all line up. If you buy paver brick, they're
usually made modular - the width is half of the length so you don't
need any joint space. n5psi used brick that wasn't modular and the
joint width is required to make things line up.

There are benefits and disadvantages of each style, but if you compact
the base and sweep in sand, compact again, then the wider joint will be
very stable.


Thanks for pinch-hitting, RicodJour :-)

The pinch-hitting would have been much more useful if I'd been correct.
The pictures obviously show modular brick, but my brain took a
vacation.

Let us know when you're done with the patio and what time we should be
over for the barbecue.

R