I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
with me many small electronic devices that worked just fine in my old
house.
When I moved in I noticed that 2 elements of my electric stove failed
to heat. My new neighbor claims that the previous owner replaced the
stove 3 times in 8 years, but I can't confirm.
In September, my Yamaha bookshelf stereo system (3 yrs old) slowly died
- I first noticed that it would play one song, then shut off, then half
a song and shut off, then wouldn't power on.
In October, my hair dryer (maybe 2 years old) stopped working. No
power at all.
In October, my iron(6 years old?) failed, power light came on but no
heat.
In November, my coffee maker (2 years old, Braun) failed, power light
came on but no heat.
In December, my electric hand mixer (8 years old?) failed, no power at
all.
In January, I asked my electric company to come out and investigate.
They tested at the meter and said that all voltage was within 5% of
acceptable voltage. I bought a tester and plugged it into every
electrical outlet in the house and the lights lit up correctly on the
tester for ground/neutral/whatever. In February I had an electrician
come out and inspect. He said that there is a surge protector on the
circuit box (not sure if terminology is exact, but the in house surge
is there) and that he couldn't find any problems.
In April, the coffee maker that I just bought in November (Mr. Coffee)
failed. Again, the power light comes on but it won't heat up!
The electrical appears to have been updated, in that there is a circuit
box with breakers and it's not full and all that.
Do I just have really bad luck with electronics, or is something
strange going on here?

I would recommend having an electrician come and check all the neutral
connections in your service equipment



"catlyns" wrote in message
ps.com...
I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
with me many small electronic devices that worked just fine in my old
house.
When I moved in I noticed that 2 elements of my electric stove failed
to heat. My new neighbor claims that the previous owner replaced the
stove 3 times in 8 years, but I can't confirm.
In September, my Yamaha bookshelf stereo system (3 yrs old) slowly died
- I first noticed that it would play one song, then shut off, then half
a song and shut off, then wouldn't power on.
In October, my hair dryer (maybe 2 years old) stopped working. No
power at all.
In October, my iron(6 years old?) failed, power light came on but no
heat.
In November, my coffee maker (2 years old, Braun) failed, power light
came on but no heat.
In December, my electric hand mixer (8 years old?) failed, no power at
all.
In January, I asked my electric company to come out and investigate.
They tested at the meter and said that all voltage was within 5% of
acceptable voltage. I bought a tester and plugged it into every
electrical outlet in the house and the lights lit up correctly on the
tester for ground/neutral/whatever. In February I had an electrician
come out and inspect. He said that there is a surge protector on the
circuit box (not sure if terminology is exact, but the in house surge
is there) and that he couldn't find any problems.
In April, the coffee maker that I just bought in November (Mr. Coffee)
failed. Again, the power light comes on but it won't heat up!
The electrical appears to have been updated, in that there is a circuit
box with breakers and it's not full and all that.
Do I just have really bad luck with electronics, or is something
strange going on here?

"catlyns" wrote in message
ps.com...
I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
(tale of woe snipped)
Again, the power light comes on but it won't heat up!
The electrical appears to have been updated, in that there is a circuit
box with breakers and it's not full and all that.
Do I just have really bad luck with electronics, or is something
strange going on here?

Spikes? Testing at the service entrance only tells the quality of the power
there, right then when they did the test. If you have a whole-house surge
protector, it may have crapped out. (You are talking about an extra ring
under the glass meter dome, right?) How long was the electrician there? Did
he open stuff up, or just check outlets with a meter? Call the electric
company back, and find out if they would be willing to leave a recording
device on site and plugged in, to monitor the power over 48 hours or so. If
they won't, an electrical contractor that does commercial work could do the
same, but it wouldn't be cheap. Quiz all your neighbors, especially those
fed off the same pole transformer as your house, and see if they had any
problems. If the mains power is dirty or off-spec, likely they will have had
problems, too. If not, something is fubar'd in your drop or inside wiring.

aem sends...

What was said.

You might even be able to find a program/card that would monitor the voltage
over time on yer PC.
And, I would see if I could glean what the wave-form of the voltage was, as
well--in addition to spikes, you might be getting DC surges as well.

And the point about neighbors is good--what is happening to you ought to be
happening to them, as well. Unless some protective component (surge, etc)
is absent on your equipment and not theirs. We don't have such stuff
here--around NYC.

The ground advice was good too. Sometimes a really bad ground can wind up
sending 220 into some 110 outlets.
A quick way to test the quality of your existing ground is to attach a wire
to the neutral bar in a panel, and touch the other end to the *street side*
of your water meter. Turn the lights out, and look for sparks/arcing. If
you see this, you don't have a good existing ground, which may or may not be
the source of your problem, but getting a good ground is always a good
start.
Often, you won't even have to turn the lights out to see the arcing. Ask
me...
If you are not comfortable with this, get someone who is comfortable with it
to do the test.

If the test is positive, find out from your power company why your neutral
connection to the pole (assuming your neutral bar to the weatherhead/outside
connection is OK) is so crappy.

On top of it all, if there is a real problem (and not just a run of bad
luck), it seems to be an intermittent one, which are the worst to diagnose.

Gary Lucas on alt.machines.cnc and on rec.crafts.metalworking is a real
sharp tack, electricity-wise. He might have some add'l insights. A few
people on rcm are good sparks.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"ameijers" wrote in message
...

"catlyns" wrote in message
ps.com...
I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
(tale of woe snipped)
Again, the power light comes on but it won't heat up!
The electrical appears to have been updated, in that there is a circuit
box with breakers and it's not full and all that.
Do I just have really bad luck with electronics, or is something
strange going on here?

Spikes? Testing at the service entrance only tells the quality of the
power
there, right then when they did the test. If you have a whole-house surge
protector, it may have crapped out. (You are talking about an extra ring
under the glass meter dome, right?) How long was the electrician there?
Did
he open stuff up, or just check outlets with a meter? Call the electric
company back, and find out if they would be willing to leave a recording
device on site and plugged in, to monitor the power over 48 hours or so.
If
they won't, an electrical contractor that does commercial work could do
the
same, but it wouldn't be cheap. Quiz all your neighbors, especially those
fed off the same pole transformer as your house, and see if they had any
problems. If the mains power is dirty or off-spec, likely they will have
had
problems, too. If not, something is fubar'd in your drop or inside wiring.

aem sends...

In article om, "catlyns" wrote:
I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
with me many small electronic devices that worked just fine in my old
house.
When I moved in I noticed that 2 elements of my electric stove failed
to heat. My new neighbor claims that the previous owner replaced the
stove 3 times in 8 years, but I can't confirm.

Probably a bad neutral connection at the incoming electrical service. In
addition to damaging appliances, this is also a safety hazard, and should be
corrected as soon as possible.

Have a different electrician come out, and check the neutral connection at the
service entrance panel -- if that checks out OK, make sure he checks the
neutral connections for *all* of the branch circuits.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Put a line monitor on for a week to see whats up.

Honestly I thinjk its just bad luck and things do die all the time.

have you had any of the failed items checked to see what happened?

Friend of mine had a similar problem that ended up being the
transformer on the pole. Not surprisingly the electric company at
first said everything was fine. After they eventually replaced the
transformer they surprisingly paid to have his TV fixed.

catlyns wrote:
I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
with me many small electronic devices that worked just fine in my old
house.

Malovelent foreign deity. You live in spooksville central.

But an intermittent neutral problem could very be doing this.

Here's what happens:
When a neutral goes out, 220 is fed across *both* 110 legs, with the loads
on each leg treated as if they are in series with each other.
Now, if the loads on one leg "match" the loads on the other leg, you won't
notice a problem.
But what if they are unequal? For example, suppose the load on leg is a 60
W bulb, and the load on the other leg is a 100 W bulb. With 220 connected
across both in series (the condition w/ no neutral), the 60 W is going to
get an unequal (higher) share of the voltage, and the 100 W bulb a smaller
share of the voltage.

So the problem will appear or go away w/ 1. an intermittent neutral
problem, and 2. w/ how the loads are balanced between the two legs.
Turning on the washing machine, for example, could shift the load balance,
stressing not only itself (w/ too low a voltage), but the other leg w/ now
too high a voltage.
But only while the washing machine is on.
However, a 220 V electric dryer or water heater will *not* affect other 110
V loads.

Or so I think.

Connecting neutrals to a good ground will help sleuth out this problem,
iffin you know what yer doing.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
wrote in message
oups.com...
Put a line monitor on for a week to see whats up.

Honestly I thinjk its just bad luck and things do die all the time.

have you had any of the failed items checked to see what happened?

On 30 Apr 2006 19:56:53 -0700, "catlyns"
wrote:

I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
with me many small electronic devices that worked just fine in my old
house.
When I moved in I noticed that 2 elements of my electric stove failed
to heat. My new neighbor claims that the previous owner replaced the
stove 3 times in 8 years, but I can't confirm.
In September, my Yamaha bookshelf stereo system (3 yrs old) slowly died
- I first noticed that it would play one song, then shut off, then half
a song and shut off, then wouldn't power on.
In October, my hair dryer (maybe 2 years old) stopped working. No
power at all.
In October, my iron(6 years old?) failed, power light came on but no
heat.
In November, my coffee maker (2 years old, Braun) failed, power light
came on but no heat.
In December, my electric hand mixer (8 years old?) failed, no power at
all.
In January, I asked my electric company to come out and investigate.
They tested at the meter and said that all voltage was within 5% of
acceptable voltage. I bought a tester and plugged it into every
electrical outlet in the house and the lights lit up correctly on the
tester for ground/neutral/whatever. In February I had an electrician
come out and inspect. He said that there is a surge protector on the
circuit box (not sure if terminology is exact, but the in house surge
is there) and that he couldn't find any problems.
In April, the coffee maker that I just bought in November (Mr. Coffee)
failed. Again, the power light comes on but it won't heat up!
The electrical appears to have been updated, in that there is a circuit
box with breakers and it's not full and all that.
Do I just have really bad luck with electronics, or is something
strange going on here?

Look outside at any tree branches that main feed wire may be rubbing.
A friend had a similar problem getting 220 volts in some recepticals.
Blew up a TV and some other stuff. A branch rubbed away the insulation
outside. New wire fixed it.

Thank you for all of your responses, even the one saying that I live in
spookville central -I'm not ruling anything out at this point!
I do have tree branches rubbing the main feed wire, I think the city
may take care of that. There are only 5 houses that are fed from this
transformer (I'm pretty sure), and I've talked to owners of 2 of them
who say they've not had any problems.
I'll get another electrician out here and at least now I can ask if
he's checked this and that based on your suggestions.

On 30 Apr 2006 19:56:53 -0700, "catlyns"
wrote:

I need your help! I moved into my 50 year home in September, brought
with me many small electronic devices that worked just fine in my old
house.

With 300,000,000 people in teh country, someone is bound to have
this many coincidences.

I moved into my 4 year old house in May and July 4th weekend I had 3
viistors and my AC, my water, and my electricity broke within 24
hours.

Then everything was fine for about 7 years and everything broke the
7th year.

When I moved in I noticed that 2 elements of my electric stove failed
to heat. My new neighbor claims that the previous owner replaced the
stove 3 times in 8 years, but I can't confirm.
In September, my Yamaha bookshelf stereo system (3 yrs old) slowly died
- I first noticed that it would play one song, then shut off, then half
a song and shut off, then wouldn't power on.
In October, my hair dryer (maybe 2 years old) stopped working. No
power at all.
In October, my iron(6 years old?) failed, power light came on but no
heat.
In November, my coffee maker (2 years old, Braun) failed, power light
came on but no heat.
In December, my electric hand mixer (8 years old?) failed, no power at
all.
In January, I asked my electric company to come out and investigate.
They tested at the meter and said that all voltage was within 5% of
acceptable voltage. I bought a tester and plugged it into every
electrical outlet in the house and the lights lit up correctly on the
tester for ground/neutral/whatever. In February I had an electrician
come out and inspect. He said that there is a surge protector on the
circuit box (not sure if terminology is exact, but the in house surge
is there) and that he couldn't find any problems.
In April, the coffee maker that I just bought in November (Mr. Coffee)
failed. Again, the power light comes on but it won't heat up!
The electrical appears to have been updated, in that there is a circuit
box with breakers and it's not full and all that.
Do I just have really bad luck with electronics, or is something
strange going on here?

If "another electrician out here", he should be measuring voltages at
suspect outlets. That means a multimeter. Outlet checker does not
test for any problem that would be causing failures. Furthermore, that
outlet tester can only test for and detect some problems; cannot report
any outlet good or sufficient. Outlet tester would do nothing useful.

Your problem appears to have symptoms that are intermittent. IOW
just measuring voltage is not enough. And measuring voltage where the
utility wire enters tells us nothing useful - other than the utility is
not at fault. You don't care who is at fault. You want to fix the
problem. That means first getting useful numbers.

You need a meter on suspect outlet monitoring constantly. A $20
multimeter can be run constantly so that you periodically read it. But
better is a 3.5 digit multimeter that locks onto both highest and
lowest voltage.

Your utility provided an important number. Voltage must not vary by
more than 5% from 120 volts. Inside, that voltage should not vary by
more than 8%. So do any lights change intensity at any time? A
noticeable change of light bulb intensity - brighter or dimmer -
suggests the neutral wire problem clearly exists.

That surge protector recommendation says the author does not even
know what such devices do. Numbers right from its box. Plug-in
protector ignores any voltage (acts like an open switch) until 120
volts rises to 330 volts. We are suggesting appliance failure because
120 volt outlets are rising for short times to maybe 150 volts. Those
would be numbers that say where the failure happens. But without
numbers and other useful facts (such as exactly what part inside each
appliance failed), then we can only speculate.

Finally, is your building properly earthed? Although not a likely
reason, still, strange failures due to something outside your building
can cause problems inside the building if building is not properly
earthed with a dedicated earth ground wire (bare copper wire) from
breaker box to earth ground rod near that box. That is a post 1990
code requirement.

Without numbers from a meter, especially one that monitors voltage
over long periods at the suspect outlets, then we can only speculate
what is or is not a problem. Even what part was damaged inside stove
was not defined meaning we are only speculating with insufficient
facts. Dead bodies are always best evidence.

But this you know. If the electrician is not taking voltage
measurements with a multimeter at suspect outlets, and he cannot find a
specific problem, then you need a different electrician.

What does that breaker box protector do? It responds to voltages far
higher (ie 300+ volts) than what is suspected. And if that 'whole
house' protector does not have a 'less than 10 foot' connection to an
adjacent earth ground rod, then it is doing nothing; electricity
requires upgrade to post 1990 NEC earthing requirements. You paid for
the electrician. Then he might as well do something useful such as
upgrade building's earthing.

catlyns wrote:
Thank you for all of your responses, even the one saying that I live in
spookville central -I'm not ruling anything out at this point!
I do have tree branches rubbing the main feed wire, I think the city
may take care of that. There are only 5 houses that are fed from this
transformer (I'm pretty sure), and I've talked to owners of 2 of them
who say they've not had any problems.
I'll get another electrician out here and at least now I can ask if
he's checked this and that based on your suggestions.