I would like to dig a trench/ditch 10 feet deep, 5-10 feet wide, 35-50 feet
long. The space between the neighbor's fence and my air conditioner is as
little as 6 feet wide, so there is a limit to the space available to store
dug-up dirt.

So, my questions a

1. What kind of equipment should I get? Backhoe, trencher?
Bucket width if backhoe? Since my width is as little as 6 feet, I can't
have too much dug-up dirt to deal with.
I understand trenchers only go down about 30 inches and have wheels 5-6 feet
wide, so does the dug-up dirt go outside that width?
Should I rent the equipment or engage a contractor to run the equipment?

2. Any idea of the cost? I'm hoping for a few hundred dollars tops.

Here's what I'm doing, if you care to know: The terrain slopes toward our
house. The house has had water problems for years. Water has swirled
through the crawlspace and it looks like some of the supports have been
replaced and some rotted crossbeams have been replaced. The crawlspace has
been enclosed with concrete blocks, obviously after some of these other
problems have been fixed. I found that they were not properly waterproofed
and had holes caused by huge roots from a neighbor's tree, which seem to
have been undetected because they were hidden behind the gas meter and some
enormous azalea bushes. I dug around the outside to a foot or two below the
concrete blocks, waterproofing with stucco paint (stretches to 6X) and a
6-mil vinyl liner. So far, all this seems to have completely eliminated
moisture in the crawlspace.

However, in working on the back corner of the foundation at the end of the
waterproofing project, I dug to 2 feet and got some moisture. Dug to 4 feet
and I had a pond. The top of the water would still only come to 2 feet
below the surface. No matter how furiously I tried to empty the water, it
would maintain that level at 2 feet below the surface. Once it began to
seep, it continually increased in flow rate. Downhill, the soil under the
deck was always wet; I never knew why until now. And the door below the
deck began rubbing on the deck above it recently, so the deck is sinking. I
dug four-foot holes at various places uphill from the original point of
discovery and found that the water level is always 2 feet below the surface.
Understand that I don't know how deep this water table is. But I think the
house will be fine if I can keep any groundwater/water table at least a
couple of feet below the foundation.

So, my plan is to dig this trench 10 feet deep. Since I expect the trench
is going to fill up with water to 2 feet below the surface, I would attach
metal fence posts to 10 foot wide 6 mil vinly sheeting to weigh it down and
pull it to the bottom of the water-filled trench. Now, I have this vinyl
going to the bottom of the trench; but the seeping water might build up at
the vinyl sheeting and try to find its way around it. To prevent this, I
would attach a 4-inch slotted pipe with sock (as used in french drains) at
about 5 feet down the 10-foot sheet to carry the built-up water downhill to
a leech field. I would staple the top of the 10-foot sheet to old wood that
would hold the sheet up while I filled in the trench. If I have to use a
trencher (and thus gamble that the 30-inch cut will be enough to carry the
groundwater away), I would modify the size of the sheeting and the placement
of the pipe. I don't see any point in hauling stone in for the trench; the
ground is quite pourous and the stone thing would introduce a whole new
world of installation problems. Anyway, with a few days' work, I think I
can satisfactorily control the problem.

Andy replies:

If I were you, I would hire a registered engineer to evaluate
your problem. You may NOT be able to do this without
injuring your neighbor's property, either thru excavation and
possible cave-in, or water drainage damage. And be assured
that if you do something to YOUR OWN property that damages
YOUR NEIGHBOR'S property, you will have bigger problems
to solve.....

Also, a registerd engineer can tell you where all this
extra water is supposed to go to. It may not be allowed
to drain the local water table into the local sewer system,
or into the street, or into the neighbor's yard....

Get over the idea that you can do anything you want
to your property. There are both civil and criminal laws
which prevent your actions if they cause damage to
anyone else....

Andy in Eureka, Texa

If I ever had any intention of hiring a "registered engineer" to do this
project, I wouldn't have posted my question on alt.home.repair.

John

"Andy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Andy replies:

If I were you, I would hire a registered engineer to evaluate
your problem. You may NOT be able to do this without
injuring your neighbor's property, either thru excavation and
possible cave-in, or water drainage damage. And be assured
that if you do something to YOUR OWN property that damages
YOUR NEIGHBOR'S property, you will have bigger problems
to solve.....

Also, a registerd engineer can tell you where all this
extra water is supposed to go to. It may not be allowed
to drain the local water table into the local sewer system,
or into the street, or into the neighbor's yard....

Get over the idea that you can do anything you want
to your property. There are both civil and criminal laws
which prevent your actions if they cause damage to
anyone else....

Andy in Eureka, Texa

I'm with you John on the whole hiring of the Engineer. That sounds
very expensive. But it is a very valid point. You don't want to get
fined for dumping into the sewer or anything like that, and you
probably don't want your neighbour to take you to court for damaging
their property. I think the solution would be to do the work yourself,
but do some research (like talking to a building inspector, land
scaper, etc) in your area to see how they would solve the problem and
what the options are. That way you would keep the costs down, only use
up a little of your time, and protect yourself. As for diggind the
trech itself, what about one of those mini excavators? They're not too
wide (but I'm not sure on the width) and should be able to dig down 10
feet. Your plan sounds good to me but I'm no expert (and maybe that's
why it sounds good).

Several problems with your idea.

A ten foot deep trench is unsafe, many people have been killed with
cave-ins, it will have to be shored. If you dig next to a fence, the fence
will fall in carrying some of your neighbor's yard, digging this deep next
to your house will cause the foundation to collapse unless it is deeper than
the hole you dig, which is doubtful. All that water will soften the edges
adding to the cave-in problem.

A leach field will not handle all the water that you are talking about, you
will need to drain to a watercourse that can handle it.

"Tom W" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm with you John on the whole hiring of the Engineer. That sounds
very expensive. But it is a very valid point. You don't want to get
fined for dumping into the sewer or anything like that, and you
probably don't want your neighbour to take you to court for damaging
their property. I think the solution would be to do the work yourself,
but do some research (like talking to a building inspector, land
scaper, etc) in your area to see how they would solve the problem and
what the options are. That way you would keep the costs down, only use
up a little of your time, and protect yourself. As for diggind the
trech itself, what about one of those mini excavators? They're not too
wide (but I'm not sure on the width) and should be able to dig down 10
feet. Your plan sounds good to me but I'm no expert (and maybe that's
why it sounds good).

The fence isn't the concern as much as the house(s).

First off, what kind of fence is it? Will the neighbor let you take it
down?

Second, why so deep? Why not 4-5 feet?

How far away are the houses? Yours must be within 6 or 7 feet or where
you will be working. Do you have a basement? How deep are your
footers?

Can you go around the other side of your house to keep away from your
neighbor?

What kind of soil do you have?

Where will the water go? Is it legal? Do you care?

That said, where I live, we have lots of water. We have about 2 feet
of crappy soil over pure clay. So for me, there would be no use in
going down over 2 feet -- just to hit the clay line. Going down 10
feet seems awfully deep.

At 10 feet, you have to worry about collapses. If the trench goes,
will it effect your house (or your neighbors)?

Do you have a septic tank? If so, don't send water towards your
leachfield.

Also, if you start on the bottom and work uphill, it might help contol
your water during excavation. And don't forget some hay bales or
plastic to control erosion and sediment.

In all likelihood, you will need a backhoe with an extendable arm so
you can reach past your A/C and not have to be right next to it.

Good luck. If you give some more info, someone might be able to help
more.

I did a DIY water project once to avoid the intrusive building
inspection dept.

.......................................BIG MISTAKE
the contractor I hired only installed the corrugated drain pipe on TOP
of the footer, and didnt backfill to my specs, which were all gravel
where a sidewalk was being replaced.... so the new sidewalk wouldnt
crack

I fired the original contractor and ended up paying for the same job
twice contractor 2 noted the pipe on top of the footer, it should of
been a little below it so underground water wouldnt percolate up thru
the basement floor. well I was out of $ so left it as is, he only redid
part of the job.

that fall the basementy flooded again and I was forced to spend 6 grand
on interior french drain.

If I had used the building inspector I might have paid a bit more for
the initial job but would oif saved contractor 2 and 3 who did the
interior waterproffing...

lessons learned with a big job those rules are there for a reason.....

on this fellows house, if he is only trying to keep a crawl space dry
why dig down 10 feet deep, a couple feet may be all thats necessary....

a 10 foot deep execvation close to the property line may well cause
settling or collapse of his neighbors property, house, driveway,
sidewalks may sink settle and crack. $ liability for repairs

probably better to surround crawl space with a 3 foot deep trench with
drainpipe on bottom landscape cloth to prevent pipe clogging and
backfilled with mostly gravel landscape cloth over top covered by a
foot of topsoil, having one or two leads going under home to redirect
any water pooling under home, cover crawlspace with 10 mil overlaped
poly sealed with tape, provide lots of vents under home so moisture
cant accumulate

the goal is not have water under home, what happens 5 or 10 feet down
really doesnt matter, in many areas thats the water table.

John John@ wrote:
I would like to dig a trench/ditch 10 feet deep, 5-10 feet wide, 35-50 feet
long. The space between the neighbor's fence and my air conditioner is as
little as 6 feet wide, so there is a limit to the space available to store
dug-up dirt.

First off, and this is just my opinion, what
you are describing is *exceedingly* dangerous.
You have not mentioned any safety measures,
such as fencing to keep people and animals
from falling in and killing themselves. This
would not be a one-day job, so it would be
open over several nights (at least).

Second, you can't just dig 10 feet down and
expect to survive while installing pipe at the
bottom. A proper trench has to be 'cut back'
to provide a measure of safety for people
working at the bottom.

Your trench: a 'cut back' trench:
| | \ /
| | | |
-- --

There's no such thing as a 'safe' trench, only
deadly trenches and deadlier ones. I worked for
my local telco, and trench safety was
*mandatory*.

Third, consider the structural aspect of your
plan; your house was built based on solid
ground being in that location. If you remove
that much ground (even temporarily), will there
be structural movement or stress load on your
foundation?

Fourth, the water seepage is a *huge*
complicating factor! Plastic or no, you won't
get the walls of any trench to last if there's
any significant inflow, and it sounds like
there is. Key word: "mudslide"

If you don't have a Civil Engineer for an
in-law, have a few Contractors come over to
review the situation and give no-obligation
estimates. One of them may see a solution or
know of a product that will help.

There are more pleasant ways to die than
suffocating at the bottom of a collapsed trench.


So, my questions a

1. What kind of equipment should I get? Backhoe, trencher?
Bucket width if backhoe? Since my width is as little as 6 feet, I can't
have too much dug-up dirt to deal with.
I understand trenchers only go down about 30 inches and have wheels 5-6 feet
wide, so does the dug-up dirt go outside that width?
Should I rent the equipment or engage a contractor to run the equipment?

2. Any idea of the cost? I'm hoping for a few hundred dollars tops.

Here's what I'm doing, if you care to know: The terrain slopes toward our
house. The house has had water problems for years. Water has swirled
through the crawlspace and it looks like some of the supports have been
replaced and some rotted crossbeams have been replaced. The crawlspace has
been enclosed with concrete blocks, obviously after some of these other
problems have been fixed. I found that they were not properly waterproofed
and had holes caused by huge roots from a neighbor's tree, which seem to
have been undetected because they were hidden behind the gas meter and some
enormous azalea bushes. I dug around the outside to a foot or two below the
concrete blocks, waterproofing with stucco paint (stretches to 6X) and a
6-mil vinyl liner. So far, all this seems to have completely eliminated
moisture in the crawlspace.

However, in working on the back corner of the foundation at the end of the
waterproofing project, I dug to 2 feet and got some moisture. Dug to 4 feet
and I had a pond. The top of the water would still only come to 2 feet
below the surface. No matter how furiously I tried to empty the water, it
would maintain that level at 2 feet below the surface. Once it began to
seep, it continually increased in flow rate. Downhill, the soil under the
deck was always wet; I never knew why until now. And the door below the
deck began rubbing on the deck above it recently, so the deck is sinking. I
dug four-foot holes at various places uphill from the original point of
discovery and found that the water level is always 2 feet below the surface.
Understand that I don't know how deep this water table is. But I think the
house will be fine if I can keep any groundwater/water table at least a
couple of feet below the foundation.

So, my plan is to dig this trench 10 feet deep. Since I expect the trench
is going to fill up with water to 2 feet below the surface, I would attach
metal fence posts to 10 foot wide 6 mil vinly sheeting to weigh it down and
pull it to the bottom of the water-filled trench. Now, I have this vinyl
going to the bottom of the trench; but the seeping water might build up at
the vinyl sheeting and try to find its way around it. To prevent this, I
would attach a 4-inch slotted pipe with sock (as used in french drains) at
about 5 feet down the 10-foot sheet to carry the built-up water downhill to
a leech field. I would staple the top of the 10-foot sheet to old wood that
would hold the sheet up while I filled in the trench. If I have to use a
trencher (and thus gamble that the 30-inch cut will be enough to carry the
groundwater away), I would modify the size of the sheeting and the placement
of the pipe. I don't see any point in hauling stone in for the trench; the
ground is quite pourous and the stone thing would introduce a whole new
world of installation problems. Anyway, with a few days' work, I think I
can satisfactorily control the problem.

In article , "John" wrote:
If I ever had any intention of hiring a "registered engineer" to do this
project, I wouldn't have posted my question on alt.home.repair.

The whole point in the suggestion to hire a registered engineer is that if you
have to be asking these questions on Usenet, you're not qualified to evaluate
the potential for damage yourself.

John

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Andy replies:

If I were you, I would hire a registered engineer to evaluate
your problem. You may NOT be able to do this without
injuring your neighbor's property, either thru excavation and
possible cave-in, or water drainage damage. And be assured
that if you do something to YOUR OWN property that damages
YOUR NEIGHBOR'S property, you will have bigger problems
to solve.....

Also, a registerd engineer can tell you where all this
extra water is supposed to go to. It may not be allowed
to drain the local water table into the local sewer system,
or into the street, or into the neighbor's yard....

Get over the idea that you can do anything you want
to your property. There are both civil and criminal laws
which prevent your actions if they cause damage to
anyone else....

Andy in Eureka, Texa




--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

When I use the term "trench" I am simply looking for a cut in the dirt to
lower the vinyl sheeting into. No one will be going in the trench. I
really had a narrow cut in mind, but I understand there may be problems
working with a narrow backhoe bucket that deep. Also, I know the trench
will be half filled with water. For that reason, the trench will be filled
immediately, especially if I can come up with the best way to dig a narrow
trench.

As to the effect on others' property, I have already covered that with the
inspectors. Downhill from my lot is a creek. The inspector said there
would never be a house there. However, I am well aware that I can't have a
drop go on to this property.

Other unmentioned items include the fact that the neighbor's sewage goes
through a clay pipe across the "trench" location, then under my house on the
way to the street. It's really the city's problem, but the only way they
can fix it is to run a pipe through still another's property, though it
would not be under our house. It gets more interesting as we go, but the
bottom line is that the city will help me out as long as they don't have to
run the sewage pipe through another's property. I will be talking to them
about an alternative to the leach field.

I'm not worried about the neighbor's fence falling in the ditch. I've
already dug two holes five feet deep AT the fence. It is a stable
situation. Two other digs confirmed the soil condition and the extend of
the water table.

At this time, it seems more likely that I will have to use a trencher and
will thus only have a 30-inch cut. I'm not too sure if I can keep the water
away from my house with this shallow cut.

John


"EXT" wrote in message
anews.com...
Several problems with your idea.

A ten foot deep trench is unsafe, many people have been killed with
cave-ins, it will have to be shored. If you dig next to a fence, the fence
will fall in carrying some of your neighbor's yard, digging this deep next
to your house will cause the foundation to collapse unless it is deeper
than
the hole you dig, which is doubtful. All that water will soften the edges
adding to the cave-in problem.

A leach field will not handle all the water that you are talking about,
you
will need to drain to a watercourse that can handle it.

"Tom W" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm with you John on the whole hiring of the Engineer. That sounds
very expensive. But it is a very valid point. You don't want to get
fined for dumping into the sewer or anything like that, and you
probably don't want your neighbour to take you to court for damaging
their property. I think the solution would be to do the work yourself,
but do some research (like talking to a building inspector, land
scaper, etc) in your area to see how they would solve the problem and
what the options are. That way you would keep the costs down, only use
up a little of your time, and protect yourself. As for diggind the
trech itself, what about one of those mini excavators? They're not too
wide (but I'm not sure on the width) and should be able to dig down 10
feet. Your plan sounds good to me but I'm no expert (and maybe that's
why it sounds good).

"John" wrote:

1. What kind of equipment should I get? Backhoe, trencher?

How about trenchless boring? They can do amazing things with those
devices these days, I see a whole lot less trenching than I used to.
Only a hole at each end.

Look for a contractor in your area.

Pulling a drain tile would seem to be a quite doable task, and a lot
less mess than digging.

I don't think you need to go down to that depth. Is the water surface
water (aka rain) or sub-terrain (like a spring)? At some point, your
going to being trying to drain the water table, which may not be a good
thing.

--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

In article , John@NOSPAM
says...
At this time, it seems more likely that I will have to use a trencher and
will thus only have a 30-inch cut. I'm not too sure if I can keep the water
away from my house with this shallow cut.

John


You should be able to rent a larger trencher. The one I used made an 8" cut to
48" depth. They are only about 4 feet wide, and place the dirt neatly along one
side as they go.

--
Dennis

Based on your description of the problem, your would have to be crazy
to expect your solution to work.

1) 6mil plastic won't do anything for you. Over time, it will develop
holes and tears. This is unavoidable. Water will go under, around, and
through it.

2) trying to lower a water table is not a simple matter of draining
into a leach field. You are talking about millions of gallons of water.
You need to figure out what flow rate will be needed to lower the table
an adequate amount. What you have described (porous soil, rapid
seeping, very high water table) sounds like you would basically be
tring to drain an underground river with a few plastic sheets and some
4-inch pipes.

3) you described your "trench" as 5 feet wide and 10 feet deep, filled
8 feet deep with water. That is just plain crazy, and dangerous, and
undoable for "a few hundred dollars" in a "few days". That close to
your house, your foundation would crumble, the fence would fall in, the
neighbor kid and the mailman would fall in, drown, then sue you, your
backhoe would fall in and you'd go bankrupt, loose your house, not to
mention being dead. All unpleasant things.

4) Can I say again that this plan is crazy. You can't dig a trench in 8
feet of water. You didn't even mention pumping during construction.

5) Lowering the water table may cause cave-ins and sink holes, perhaps
under your house, under the street, under your neighbors house. Google
Images for "water table sink hole" to find some really amazing photos
of what can happen when water tables drop significantly. Locally, I
have seen sinkholes form after water mitigation was done wrong.

Since you don't seem likely to hire anyone to fix this problem, you are
going to have to go back to the drawing board. But before you start
thinking up plans and fixes, you really need to do some more research.


Try to figure out where the water is coming from, how much there is,
etc. Is it seasonal? Is it fed by surface water, a spring, etc? Do your
neighbors have water problems? Where will all the water go?

Just to give you some ideas for alternatives that might be more
appropriate (depending on what your research turns up):
- A sump-pump or three might be all you need, either under your house,
or near the house, to lower the table just a bit right around the
house.
- Diverting surface water somewhere upstream/uphill might be enough.
Water might be pooling up somewhere uphill from you, for example,
soaking the ground.
- You might have a non-porous layer of soil (clay?) a few feet down,
keeping the water too close to the surface. It might be enough to just
bore down through this layer in a few places, to let the water seep
down to a lower level.

All these ideas might be much cheaper, easier, and more effective than
what you want to do. Or they might be worse, or might even cause even
bigger problems. I don't konw, and it sounds like you don't either yet.
Good luck on your research and your project.

-Kevin

I am sometimes too blunt, so please don't take this the wrong way. I
think what the other posters are saying is that for an inexperienced
backhoe operater to work on the deep trench when you have saturated
ground may be a bit dangerous. Sorry to just blurt it out like that,
but I think they were saying that for your own good. Even experienced
operators have been known to land in the hole, on occasion.

If it is surface water, and not some huge spring under your house/yard,
4 feet or so should work fine. I think that most people also feel that
a trencher is safer because the cut is narrower. If, hypothetically,
you are digging and a dog goes in the ditch, you can't get it out
without endangering a person in such a narrow/deep cut. On a
commercial site, you would put a steel slip form into the trench to
keep workers safe.

If you are going to do this, try a trencher. Also, forget about the
plastic. Fill the ditch with crushed stone. That'll keep the water
moving and will be zero maintenance. Granted, it may eventually fill
in, but you won't own the house be then. But, put some landscaping
cloth on top to keep the topsoil from going into it. This would be a
simple and safe way to do it.

If you have clay soil, just go to the level of the clay.

If you start from downhill side and work up, it shouldn't fill up with
water -- but you will get more sediment running out and you should
control that (put in a bale a hay to slow the run-off.).

As for the sewer pipe. In all likelihood, you will break it. Almost
anyone would. So go to your local builder supply store and ask how to
fix it. Then get what you need before you start. You can always
return it.

If it were I, I would also rent a big-ol snake and snake out the line
since you have it open. Then it will be good and clear and won't cause
you any trouble in the future. After all, it goes under YOUR house.

I did trenches on both sides of my house and across the back about 3
years ago. But I didn't have to go too deep. I hired a couple of
local kids who were on the football team and had them dig it by hand.
Let's just say, by the time they were done, they would looking forward
to football practice and conditioning because it was so much easier!
(The kids bulked up pretty good and had a great football season)