A recent house fire on an acreage has forced the need to hook a
pressure tank directly to the submersible pump to supply outside
water. I have purchased a new bladderless tank and have a 220 source
to power the pump. I am looking for some guidance or some source of
information (diagrams, instructions, etc.), and an idea where to
obtain this info. Have checked into having a plumber do this and the
estimates I received were pretty high. If all else fails- I guess
I'll go that route. Thanks

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:02:20 GMT, mchoghead wrote:

A recent house fire on an acreage has forced the need to hook apressure tank directly to the submersible pump to supply outsidewater. I have purchased a new bladderless tank and have a 220 sourceto power the pump. I am looking for some guidance or some source ofinformation (diagrams, instructions, etc.), and an idea where toobtain this info. Have checked into having a plumber do this and theestimates I received were pretty high. If all else fails- I guessI'll go that route.

Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure tank on one
side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you with water,
while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot. I have
something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The pressure
tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about 80 ft from
the house, along with the whole house filter.

My setup is with the pump and line to the house across the top of the T and
the pressure tank comes off the bottom of the T - a little ASCII art may help
(best viewed with a fixed size font).

pump--------------------house (spigot in your case)
|
|
pressure tank

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


Please send all email as text - HTML is too hard to decipher as text.

You can save a bundle by doing the installation yourself. All you need
is to uncover enough of the line coming from the well to insert a T.

In addition to what Michael said:

If the tank is where it is subject to freezing, you will need to add a
shut-off valve (use 1/4 turn ball valve) and a method of draining the
tank. .

You really don't need another tank (assuming you already have one)
unless you are after more storeage. Just a frost-free standpipe at the
well or other convenient spot along the line to the house.

If you do install a tank you will need to pre-charge it with air before
it fills with water. Proper pressure is 2psi below the cut-in pressure
of the pressure switch.

Harry K

(Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure tank
on one
side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you with
water,
while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot. I
have
something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The
pressure
tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about 80
ft from
the house, along with the whole house filter.)

When originally talking to a plumber about doing the work of
installing the pressure tank he had talked about pulling the cap off
the top of the sub.pump and adding a section thereby bypassing? the
area where the lines run out of shaft underground and into the house.
Is this a better option? I only plan on using this setup in the summer
months. Sorry really dont know much about this. Do you mean to dig
up the line running from the pump to the house,bring the house end to
the surface and then add a tee connecting the line the spigot and the
tank. Then I would supply current to the pump? I plan on just
running the wires from the pump to a 220v plugin source by the way.
Also the plumber told me to purchase a bladderless tank with a bung
hole for a vollume control valve(not sure what the purpose of this
is). Then would I charge the tank with air before or after hooking up
the water/pump and filling the tank with watter? Thanks for any and
all help. Neal

mchoghead wrote:
(Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure tank
on one
side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you with
water,
while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot. I
have
something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The
pressure
tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about 80
ft from
the house, along with the whole house filter.)

When originally talking to a plumber about doing the work of
installing the pressure tank he had talked about pulling the cap off
the top of the sub.pump and adding a section thereby bypassing? the
area where the lines run out of shaft underground and into the house.
Is this a better option? I only plan on using this setup in the summer
months. Sorry really dont know much about this. Do you mean to dig
up the line running from the pump to the house,bring the house end to
the surface and then add a tee connecting the line the spigot and the
tank. Then I would supply current to the pump? I plan on just
running the wires from the pump to a 220v plugin source by the way.
Also the plumber told me to purchase a bladderless tank with a bung
hole for a vollume control valve(not sure what the purpose of this
is). Then would I charge the tank with air before or after hooking up
the water/pump and filling the tank with watter? Thanks for any and
all help. Neal

There are things going on with your system that seem odd. You
apparently have a submersible pump running to the house. To clarify
what you need to do:

Do you currently have a pressure tank? If so, where is it?
Will there be a problem of freezing in the winter time? If so,
anything you do will need to be drained.

To answer your question abouit the tee: It goes where you want the
standpipe.

I don't understand why you would need to run wires. You must already
have power to the pump.

The advice to purchase a bladderless tank seems odd. Why add
maintenance problems into the system? I will repeat what I said prior.
If you have a pressurized system running now, there is no need to
install a tank at all.

Your questions do make sense if the fire wiped out the wiring and tank.
If that is the case, the advice to install a bladderless tank is even
more strange.

A short bit on the physics behind a water system using a tank:

Tank contains a certain amount of air.
Pump pumps water that compresses the air bubble.
Pump run is controlled by a pressure switch that is set to turn on at
some low setting and off at a higher one. Common are 30/50, 40/60
The compressed air bubble pushes the water through the system to point
of use.
*It does not matter where the tank is located - pressure (static) will
be identical at all points in the system even at very remote
locations.*

There are constant pressure set-ups but I am not familiar with them.


Harry K

Harry Kwrote:
mchoghead wrote:
(Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure
tank
on one
side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you
with
water,
while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot.
I
have
something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The
pressure
tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about
80
ft from
the house, along with the whole house filter.)

When originally talking to a plumber about doing the work of
installing the pressure tank he had talked about pulling the cap
off
the top of the sub.pump and adding a section thereby bypassing? the
area where the lines run out of shaft underground and into the
house.
Is this a better option? I only plan on using this setup in the
summer
months. Sorry really dont know much about this. Do you mean to
dig
up the line running from the pump to the house,bring the house end
to
the surface and then add a tee connecting the line the spigot and
the
tank. Then I would supply current to the pump? I plan on just
running the wires from the pump to a 220v plugin source by the way.
Also the plumber told me to purchase a bladderless tank with a bung
hole for a vollume control valve(not sure what the purpose of this
is). Then would I charge the tank with air before or after hooking
up
the water/pump and filling the tank with watter? Thanks for any
and
all help. Neal

There are things going on with your system that seem odd. You
apparently have a submersible pump running to the house. To clarify
what you need to do:

Do you currently have a pressure tank? If so, where is it?
Will there be a problem of freezing in the winter time? If so,
anything you do will need to be drained.

To answer your question abouit the tee: It goes where you want the
standpipe.

I don't understand why you would need to run wires. You must already
have power to the pump.

The advice to purchase a bladderless tank seems odd. Why add
maintenance problems into the system? I will repeat what I said
prior.
If you have a pressurized system running now, there is no need to
install a tank at all.

Your questions do make sense if the fire wiped out the wiring and
tank.
If that is the case, the advice to install a bladderless tank is
even
more strange.

A short bit on the physics behind a water system using a tank:

Tank contains a certain amount of air.
Pump pumps water that compresses the air bubble.
Pump run is controlled by a pressure switch that is set to turn on at
some low setting and off at a higher one. Common are 30/50, 40/60
The compressed air bubble pushes the water through the system to
point
of use.
*It does not matter where the tank is located - pressure (static)
will
be identical at all points in the system even at very remote
locations.*

There are constant pressure set-ups but I am not familiar with them.


Harry K[/quote:1a6fb8c8a6]

To help clarify a bit.--- The water lines from the pump ran
underground and into the house to the pressure tank. Also the wiring
to the pump comes off the utility pole into the house breaker box and
back out to the pump(also underground). The pressure tank in the house
is a loss-very hot fire-hence the need for a new tank. The wiring
will need to be connected from the utility pole to the pump as there
is no electricity running the the house anymore and the house will be
buried soon. This is a temporary setup to supply water for outside
use. I was told I needed a bladderless tank with a volume controll
to make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnected
for winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook this
up. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiar
with the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer months
and draining for winter months. Thanks for all the help and would
appreciate anymore. Thanks Neal

mchoghead wrote:
Harry Kwrote:
mchoghead wrote:
(Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure
tank
on one
side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you
with
water,
while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot.
I
have
something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The
pressure
tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about
80
ft from
the house, along with the whole house filter.)

When originally talking to a plumber about doing the work of
installing the pressure tank he had talked about pulling the cap
off
the top of the sub.pump and adding a section thereby bypassing? the
area where the lines run out of shaft underground and into the
house.
Is this a better option? I only plan on using this setup in the
summer
months. Sorry really dont know much about this. Do you mean to
dig
up the line running from the pump to the house,bring the house end
to
the surface and then add a tee connecting the line the spigot and
the
tank. Then I would supply current to the pump? I plan on just
running the wires from the pump to a 220v plugin source by the way.
Also the plumber told me to purchase a bladderless tank with a bung
hole for a vollume control valve(not sure what the purpose of this
is). Then would I charge the tank with air before or after hooking
up
the water/pump and filling the tank with watter? Thanks for any
and
all help. Neal

There are things going on with your system that seem odd. You
apparently have a submersible pump running to the house. To clarify
what you need to do:

Do you currently have a pressure tank? If so, where is it?
Will there be a problem of freezing in the winter time? If so,
anything you do will need to be drained.

To answer your question abouit the tee: It goes where you want the
standpipe.

I don't understand why you would need to run wires. You must already
have power to the pump.

The advice to purchase a bladderless tank seems odd. Why add
maintenance problems into the system? I will repeat what I said
prior.
If you have a pressurized system running now, there is no need to
install a tank at all.

Your questions do make sense if the fire wiped out the wiring and
tank.
If that is the case, the advice to install a bladderless tank is
even
more strange.

A short bit on the physics behind a water system using a tank:

Tank contains a certain amount of air.
Pump pumps water that compresses the air bubble.
Pump run is controlled by a pressure switch that is set to turn on at
some low setting and off at a higher one. Common are 30/50, 40/60
The compressed air bubble pushes the water through the system to
point
of use.
*It does not matter where the tank is located - pressure (static)
will
be identical at all points in the system even at very remote
locations.*

There are constant pressure set-ups but I am not familiar with them.


Harry K[/quote:1a6fb8c8a6]

To help clarify a bit.--- The water lines from the pump ran
underground and into the house to the pressure tank. Also the wiring
to the pump comes off the utility pole into the house breaker box and
back out to the pump(also underground). The pressure tank in the house
is a loss-very hot fire-hence the need for a new tank. The wiring
will need to be connected from the utility pole to the pump as there
is no electricity running the the house anymore and the house will be
buried soon. This is a temporary setup to supply water for outside
use. I was told I needed a bladderless tank with a volume controll
to make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnected
for winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook this
up. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiar
with the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer months
and draining for winter months. Thanks for all the help and would
appreciate anymore. Thanks Neal


Thkanks, that clears things up. I can now see the problems.

Wiring. If the pole is near the house, the easiest installation would
probably be to connect to the underground lines near it. Dig up the
old pipe/wire line and install breaker box. May need an electrician
for that. You will need to connect the wiring at the well to the
pressure switch on the tank also. Simple wiring diagram

Pole---breaker---well---pressure switch---pump.
Of course if you install a pole and breaker at the well you wouldn't
have to dig up the line at the house.

Standpipe = just the technical term for a faucet on a pipe sticking up
out of the ground. Best for outdoor use are the frost-free ones. When
you turn them off, they automatically drain.

I now see the plumber's point of coming straight out of the well by
eliminating (or at least bypassing) the pitless adapter. That is a
diagonal slip connection that slides together and connects the well
pipe with the pipe leading to the house.

Bladderless tank does make some sense there. Should help get air into
the tank when it is draining.

Sounds like the tank is just going to be setting in the open. In that
case all you need on it is a hose bib, no standpipe needed.

This does not sound like a DIY job unless you are fairly experienced
with both wiring and plumbing.

Harry K

Harry Kwrote:
mchoghead wrote:
Harry Kwrote:
mchoghead wrote:
(Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure
tank
on one
side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you
with
water,
while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the
spigot.
I
have
something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The
pressure
tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about
80
ft from
the house, along with the whole house filter.)

When originally talking to a plumber about doing the work of
installing the pressure tank he had talked about pulling the cap
off
the top of the sub.pump and adding a section thereby bypassing? the
area where the lines run out of shaft underground and into the
house.
Is this a better option? I only plan on using this setup in the
summer
months. Sorry really dont know much about this. Do you mean to
dig
up the line running from the pump to the house,bring the house end
to
the surface and then add a tee connecting the line the spigot and
the
tank. Then I would supply current to the pump? I plan on just
running the wires from the pump to a 220v plugin source by the way.
Also the plumber told me to purchase a bladderless tank with a bung
hole for a vollume control valve(not sure what the purpose of this
is). Then would I charge the tank with air before or after hooking
up
the water/pump and filling the tank with watter? Thanks for any
and
all help. Neal

There are things going on with your system that seem odd. You
apparently have a submersible pump running to the house. To
clarify
what you need to do:

Do you currently have a pressure tank? If so, where is it?
Will there be a problem of freezing in the winter time? If so,
anything you do will need to be drained.

To answer your question abouit the tee: It goes where you want the
standpipe.

I don't understand why you would need to run wires. You must
already
have power to the pump.

The advice to purchase a bladderless tank seems odd. Why add
maintenance problems into the system? I will repeat what I said
prior.
If you have a pressurized system running now, there is no need to
install a tank at all.

Your questions do make sense if the fire wiped out the wiring and
tank.
If that is the case, the advice to install a bladderless tank is
even
more strange.

A short bit on the physics behind a water system using a tank:

Tank contains a certain amount of air.
Pump pumps water that compresses the air bubble.
Pump run is controlled by a pressure switch that is set to turn on
at
some low setting and off at a higher one. Common are 30/50, 40/60
The compressed air bubble pushes the water through the system to
point
of use.
*It does not matter where the tank is located - pressure (static)
will
be identical at all points in the system even at very remote
locations.*

There are constant pressure set-ups but I am not familiar with
them.


Harry K

To help clarify a bit.--- The water lines from the pump ran
underground and into the house to the pressure tank. Also the wiring
to the pump comes off the utility pole into the house breaker box and
back out to the pump(also underground). The pressure tank in the
house
is a loss-very hot fire-hence the need for a new tank. The wiring
will need to be connected from the utility pole to the pump as there
is no electricity running the the house anymore and the house will be
buried soon. This is a temporary setup to supply water for outside
use. I was told I needed a bladderless tank with a volume controll
to make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnected
for winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook this
up. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiar
with the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer months
and draining for winter months. Thanks for all the help and would
appreciate anymore. Thanks Neal
[/quote:1c311aaf3f]

Thkanks, that clears things up. I can now see the problems.

Wiring. If the pole is near the house, the easiest installation would
probably be to connect to the underground lines near it. Dig up the
old pipe/wire line and install breaker box. May need an electrician
for that. You will need to connect the wiring at the well to the
pressure switch on the tank also. Simple wiring diagram

Pole---breaker---well---pressure switch---pump.
Of course if you install a pole and breaker at the well you wouldn't
have to dig up the line at the house.

Standpipe = just the technical term for a faucet on a pipe sticking
up
out of the ground. Best for outdoor use are the frost-free ones.
When
you turn them off, they automatically drain.

I now see the plumber's point of coming straight out of the well by
eliminating (or at least bypassing) the pitless adapter. That is a
diagonal slip connection that slides together and connects the well
pipe with the pipe leading to the house.

Bladderless tank does make some sense there. Should help get air
into
the tank when it is draining.

Sounds like the tank is just going to be setting in the open. In
that
case all you need on it is a hose bib, no standpipe needed.

This does not sound like a DIY job unless you are fairly experienced
with both wiring and plumbing.

Harry K[/quote:1c311aaf3f]


Yeah I guess im kinda leaning towards experience on this one but
thanks so much for all your help. It was most appreciated. Neal

mchoghead wrote:

snip


This does not sound like a DIY job unless you are fairly experienced
with both wiring and plumbing.

Harry K[/quote:1c311aaf3f]


Yeah I guess im kinda leaning towards experience on this one but
thanks so much for all your help. It was most appreciated. Neal

The installation of the tank and wiring are not all that technical. If
you have done some, and your tank/pressure switch came with good
instructions you should be able to do it.

The problem for DIY is bypassing the pitless adaptor. That can be
avoided by simply digging out the pipe/wiring next to the well head and
connecting there. I would tend to go that route even if I was hiring
the job out.

Harry K

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:01:53 GMT, mchoghead wrote:

This is a temporary setup to supply water for outsideuse. I was told I needed a bladderless tank with a volume controllto make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnectedfor winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook thisup. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiarwith the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer monthsand draining for winter months.

You'll probably be required by your electric company to install a "temporary
service" which is simply a post (4X4 was used when they built my house) with
an electrical box mounted on it which holds some breakers and a spot for the
electric company to install a meter. You can simply hook the wiring from the
pump to one or two breakers depending on whether it is 120V or 240V. Need to
make sure the breakers are rated high enough for the pump.

My system was set up very similar to what you want to do while my house was
constructed. There was a wire which came from the temporary service to the
pressure switch. My well (6" drilled) has the casing coming all the way to
the surface, so the water pipe turned to one side after exiting the casing
cover to go to the pressure tank which was sitting on a couple of cement
blocks. There was a T by the pressure tank - one leg from the well, one to
the pressure tank and the other had a short pipe with a hose bib on it. This
was set up by the fella that drilled the well, I later added the
wellhouse/storage building, the changes in plumbing required to accomodate
the building and for mounting a whole house filter in the wellhouse and the
pipe to the house.

Slightly Off-Topic
I'm curious, since I don't have any personal experience with bladderless
tanks, why would a bladderless tank be easier to drain? Turn off the pump,
open a valve and the tank drains - right?

Any small amount of water that may be left in the tank would have plenty of
room to expand if it froze so no damage - pipes should drain to similar
condition if lowest point is opened. I'm not from a cold climate (NW GA),
mebby I'm missing something?

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


Please send all email as text - HTML is too hard to decipher as text.

Michael Strickland wrote:
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:01:53 GMT, mchoghead wrote:

This is a temporary setup to supply water for outsideuse. I was told I needed a bladderless tank with a volume controllto make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnectedfor winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook thisup. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiarwith the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer monthsand draining for winter months.

You'll probably be required by your electric company to install a "temporary
service" which is simply a post (4X4 was used when they built my house) with
an electrical box mounted on it which holds some breakers and a spot for the
electric company to install a meter. You can simply hook the wiring from the
pump to one or two breakers depending on whether it is 120V or 240V. Need to
make sure the breakers are rated high enough for the pump.

My system was set up very similar to what you want to do while my house was
constructed. There was a wire which came from the temporary service to the
pressure switch. My well (6" drilled) has the casing coming all the way to
the surface, so the water pipe turned to one side after exiting the casing
cover to go to the pressure tank which was sitting on a couple of cement
blocks. There was a T by the pressure tank - one leg from the well, one to
the pressure tank and the other had a short pipe with a hose bib on it. This
was set up by the fella that drilled the well, I later added the
wellhouse/storage building, the changes in plumbing required to accomodate
the building and for mounting a whole house filter in the wellhouse and the
pipe to the house.

Slightly Off-Topic
I'm curious, since I don't have any personal experience with bladderless
tanks, why would a bladderless tank be easier to drain? Turn off the pump,
open a valve and the tank drains - right?

Any small amount of water that may be left in the tank would have plenty of
room to expand if it froze so no damage - pipes should drain to similar
condition if lowest point is opened. I'm not from a cold climate (NW GA),
mebby I'm missing something?

Later, Mike
(substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly)
-----------------------------------


Please send all email as text - HTML is too hard to decipher as text.

I really don't see the bladderless tank either except that one will
drain faster as air will enter through the air control valve. A
bladder tank has to have the air bubble up through the water trying to
exit. I suppose his plumber has his reason but...

Harry K

A tank with a bladder has what it sys inside, a rubbery bladder that
separates air and water.

The bladder maintains a back pressure on the water, helping it to flo
out and up when the water drain is opened.

A bladder less tank is a simple reservoir, giving the system expansion
room as the temperature of the water changes. Yes, if the tank begins
to get full, the air above will dissolve in the water.


So, what does the application need, expansion room for fluctuating water
levels, or a pressure maintainer to give positive flow?

Robert Gammon wrote:
A tank with a bladder has what it sys inside, a rubbery bladder that
separates air and water.

The bladder maintains a back pressure on the water, helping it to flo
out and up when the water drain is opened.

A bladder less tank is a simple reservoir, giving the system expansion
room as the temperature of the water changes. Yes, if the tank begins
to get full, the air above will dissolve in the water.


So, what does the application need, expansion room for fluctuating water
levels, or a pressure maintainer to give positive flow?

You have a misconception of how the tanks work. They both work the
same way. A bubble of air is compressed by water pumped. The
compressed air bubble is what forces the water through the system when
the pump is off. The only difference between the two types is:

Bladder - has a membrade (actually more of a balloon) separating the
air and water.
Bladderless - only has an air bubble. Over time, the air is absorbed
into the water and disappears resulting in what is known as a
waterlogged tank. Thus the need for a "snifter valve" or float type
vavle to let more air into the tank.

Harry K