I live in an economically depressed area of the NE US where a decent
old six-room home averages 80K and up.

I found a very old but apparently well-maintained FSBO bungalow-style
home that literally can't be inspected by a home inspector. There are
several reasons for this.

1) The kitchen, bath, and laundry room are in the cellar. This is
because the (large) lot the bungalow is on is on a hillside. The
"upper" story is actually the story with the door and mailbox that face
the street. On the lower floor, new tile flooring, a new (raised)
bath, and inexpensive berber carpet on the (raised) dining area make it
impossible to see the subflooring and/or concrete and/or stone this
major part of the living area rests on.

2) The square footage of the home is so small that the upper story (or
street-level floor) has no access at all to the crawl-space attic. The
roof is not architectural but shows no stain, and there are new vinyl
soffits and gutters.

3) The interior of the home is entirely clad in cheapo composite
panelling. I asked the seller if a pest or home-inspector would be
allowed to remove a piece of the panelling in an unobtrusive part of
the home, perhaps the laundry room in the crevice at the front of the
lower/cellar. He said no.

4) The breaker box is 25 years old--an I.T.E. I noticed what seemed
an unusual amount of outlets for a home this size and this age. There
were all grounded, but the wiring is all hidden behind the panelling
and/or dropped ceilings.

5) This FSBO seller does not realize that I know he owns a major strip
mall in a well-trafficked, high-income area. He also does not know
that I'm aware he's affluent. He will not give me his home address,
but because our local newspaper makes public the property tax records
for the county (something I think is an invitation to disaster in the
wrong hands, BTW), through a little sleuthing I was able to find out
who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really is.

From the next-door neighbor to this bungalow, I learned that this
enterpreneur purchased this home as a Fannie Mae foreclosure in August
for 48K, laid the berber carpet, redid the bathroom, and is selling it
for a price in the low 60s.

The neighbor has told me about past owners and has assured me the home
was always well-maintained. I am always suspicious though of homes
were the seller or realtor stresses "newly painted" and "new carpet,"
as these are the cheapest, easiest fixes.

Well, thank you for reading this. The seller is almost strangely
reluctant to continue with the sale, having twice cancelled scheduled
"pre-sales-agreement" walk-throughs by my electrician.

I have concentrated on the questionable or negative aspects of this
property, and I'm not sure they are questionable or negative at all. I
don't intend to offer what he's asking, but the size of the lot alone
would make the property desirable; and as far as depressed communities
in my region are concerned, this community is among the most desirable
because of a county community college.

Again, thanks for reading and maybe posting your thoughts.

I've only bought two houses in my life, and based only on that, I'm not sure
removing pieces of paneling is something that's normally done as part of an
inspection, unless you've got a very cooperative seller. There are some
mysteries you just have to discover after you've bought a house.

BUT: If this seller won't even keep an appointment with your electrician,
I'd be suspicious, or at least prepared to bargain very heavily. Ask the
electrician this question: "If this were YOUR house, and you had plenty of
time & extra money to rip out everything & start from scratch, what would
you do here? And, what would that job be worth if you were doing it for me?"
Subtract that from the selling price.

Pay a roofer to at least climb up top and check out the shingles.

Measure the rooms (including ceiling height) where you think there might be
trouble with the walls. Call a contractor and ask "If I tore the walls out
down to the beams, what would it cost to sheetrock the room, assuming no
unusual problems?" Subtract that from the selling price.

Explain to all these people why you're asking, so they don't think you're
wasting their time.

If the seller balks at all this, tell him to start cooperating like the vast
majority of normal humans who are selling their homes. He's playing
hardball, so there's no reason not to say "Ya know, this is my mistake.
You're just sort of showing the house. I thought you wanted to sell it. Let
me know when that's the case". All of this assumes that there's something
about the house or the location that's got you hooked. If not, move on.

In article . com, wrote:
I live in an economically depressed area of the NE US where a decent
old six-room home averages 80K and up.

I found a very old but apparently well-maintained FSBO bungalow-style
home that literally can't be inspected by a home inspector. There are
several reasons for this.

Doesn't matter what the reasons are -- that's reason enough to walk away.
[snip]
4) The breaker box is 25 years old--an I.T.E. I noticed what seemed
an unusual amount of outlets for a home this size and this age. There
were all grounded, but the wiring is all hidden behind the panelling
and/or dropped ceilings.

More reason to walk away.
[snip]

Well, thank you for reading this. The seller is almost strangely
reluctant to continue with the sale, having twice cancelled scheduled
"pre-sales-agreement" walk-throughs by my electrician.

Gee, do you think the seller is afraid the electrician won't like what he
sees?

Do you *really* need anyone else's opinions on whether this is a good idea?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

seems like you already know that this is a bad deal, or you wouldn't be
asking here, right? I agree with the two Dougs posting above me:
unless there is some sort of hidden appeal to this property, find
something else. This house is being "flipped" by a guy who makes money
by buying up foreclosed property, putting in new carpets and paint and
selling it for profit. To add to matters, what you describe is a
somewhat unconventional design and may be hard to resell in the future.
The things you describe by themselves aren't dealbreakers, but taken
together with the seller's shady behavior - move on and let this guy
find another sucker.

"I found a very old but apparently well-maintained FSBO bungalow-style
home that literally can't be inspected by a home inspector. There are
several reasons for this. "

In everything I've read, I can't understand this. Regardless of how
the house is put together, you certainly can have a home inspector do
an inspection. Depending on the construction, he won't be able to see
everything, but they never can anyway. Some houses they can see more
than others, but that isn't a reason for not getting it inspected by a
good home inspector. Certainly he can evaluate the roof, gutters,
heating system, siding, grading, electric system, etc. Then you'll be
in a better position.

Without seeing this, knowing the area, etc, it's impossible to give an
opinion. Some are saying it's a bad deal. But if it's going in the
60s and similar houses cost 80K+, that gives you a lot of discount.
Plus, you can't get much for that price hardly anywhere today. And it
depends what your objectives are. Rent it out, fix it up and resell,
live in it, etc.

Doug Miller's right about Doug Kanter being right. Run away! Tom

Doug, Doug, and Non-Dougs: Thanks for the input. I particularly liked
the Gee, I Made a Mistake line of reasoning and will memorize it.

Our family attorney often says that instead of paying a home inspector,
it's a better idea to do exactly what one of "yooz" said--get
individual experts at whatever may need renovation, and get an
estimate.

Thanks again, very much.

"tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doug Miller's right about Doug Kanter being right. Run away! Tom


Or, bargain like a lunatic. Time sometimes has value to sellers. Drag it
out...drag it out....

I wouldn't encourage you to buy a house you are not sure of, and
certainly not one you "can't" have inspected. But... you seem to be a
bit picky he

1) The kitchen, bath, and laundry room are in the cellar.

In other words, the house has a unique design. So? Do you like it or
not like it? Is it a good design, or will it just be annoying and hard
to resell?

the street. On the lower floor, new tile flooring, a new (raised)
bath, and inexpensive berber carpet on the (raised) dining area make it
impossible to see the subflooring and/or concrete and/or stone this
major part of the living area rests on.

I don't know what kind of house you want to buy that you will be able
to see what is beneath the flooring. Do you expect a sell to tear up
the floor so you can see the concrete or subfloor?

2) The square footage of the home is so small that the upper story (or
street-level floor) has no access at all to the crawl-space attic.

So? Many houses have no access to the attic. Is this a problem for you?
Did you want a bigger attic so you can store things up there? If so,
then this must not be the right house for you.

The
roof is not architectural but shows no stain, and there are new vinyl
soffits and gutters.

This description fits about three quarters of the houses in this state.
You seem to be looking for something else though...

3) The interior of the home is entirely clad in cheapo composite
panelling.

And I take it you want a house that doesn't have cheapo composite
panelling, right? For 50K I can't image you are going to get much
better though.

I asked the seller if a pest or home-inspector would be
allowed to remove a piece of the panelling in an unobtrusive part of
the home, perhaps the laundry room in the crevice at the front of the
lower/cellar. He said no.

If I were the seller, I would say no too. Tearing up the walls is not
part of the home selling process.

4) The breaker box is 25 years old

Again, completely normal. Most houses are 25 years old, and few will
get a new breaker box ever, or at least not in the first 40 years or
so.

--an I.T.E.

I don't know anything about I.T.E. But you apparently don't want a
house with and I.T.E. box.

I noticed what seemed
an unusual amount of outlets for a home this size and this age. There
were all grounded,

So the house has a good number of correctly installed outlets. But you
wanted fewer outlets. Or maybe ungrounded ones?

but the wiring is all hidden behind the panelling
and/or dropped ceilings.

.... and you must have had your heart set on exposed wiring.

5) This FSBO seller does not realize that I know he owns a major strip
mall in a well-trafficked, high-income area. He also does not know
that I'm aware he's affluent.

So? How does the sellers income, lifestyle, or occupation affect the
house? Are you trying to say he doesn't deserve a fair price?

He will not give me his home address,

I wouldn't either. Why should he until you make an offer or start
negotiating?

but because our local newspaper makes public the property tax records
for the county (something I think is an invitation to disaster in the
wrong hands, BTW), through a little sleuthing I was able to find out
who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really is.

And unless there is something shady about who "(Blank) + (Blank)"
really is, what is the problem? Are you buying from the mob? Was it
"really" owned by someone of an ethnicity or religion you don't want to
be associated with? When I bought, I certainly didn't ask the sellers
for a home address (they had already moved out), and didn't ask for
their realators home address either. And when I did a little sleuthing,
I found out who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really was: a company that
sells and buys houses, owned by some people that live in a nearby city.
So what?


From the next-door neighbor to this bungalow, I learned that this
enterpreneur purchased this home as a Fannie Mae foreclosure in August
for 48K, laid the berber carpet, redid the bathroom, and is selling it
for a price in the low 60s.

Which seems like reasonable fair thing to do. Put a few thousand in
materials and labor, plus time and risk, and ask about 10k more than
you purchased it. In fact, sounds downright entreprenurial.

The neighbor has told me about past owners and has assured me the home
was always well-maintained.

And you were hoping for...?

I am always suspicious though of homes

I can tell.

Well, thank you for reading this. The seller is almost strangely
reluctant to continue with the sale,

I would be too, especially since "the sale" doesn't exist and won't
exist until you make an offer and begin negotiating.

having twice cancelled scheduled
"pre-sales-agreement" walk-throughs by my electrician.

How many walk-throughs have you had? And why did you schedule a
walk-through for an electrician, but not a home inspector?

I have concentrated on the questionable or negative aspects of this
property, and I'm not sure they are questionable or negative at all.

Yes you have, an no they are not.


I
don't intend to offer what he's asking, but the size of the lot alone
would make the property desirable;

Desirable in what sort of way? You want a big house with ordinary
layout, exposed wiring, architectural shingles, no flooring, a few
ungrounded outlets, and previous owners that didn't maintain the place.
So this house isn't for you. I might like it myself, it sounds pretty
good for the price.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Doug, Doug, and Non-Dougs: Thanks for the input. I particularly liked
the Gee, I Made a Mistake line of reasoning and will memorize it.

Our family attorney often says that instead of paying a home inspector,
it's a better idea to do exactly what one of "yooz" said--get
individual experts at whatever may need renovation, and get an
estimate.

Thanks again, very much.


My home inspector totally missed the fact that part of my kitchen was built
over a crawl space instead of the basement. So, while pointing out minor
little things that would make the house warmer, they forgot the one big
thing - I can keep a case of beer on my dining area floor in the winter and
it'll be at perfect drinking temperature. I pointed this out to them (two of
them!) and they sorta blushed. They still spotted some worthwhile things,
but inspectors are not the be-all and end-all of resources.

I would agree with Trad, get home inspection. It is not reasonable, in
my view, to expect major discounts for features which you may not like,
ie paneling. Only for things which are clearly violations, eg wiring
that is actually non compliant. You would need lawyer to make sure
title, etc are in order. You can bargain, certainly look at other
houses. Then decide.

"kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
I wouldn't encourage you to buy a house you are not sure of, and
certainly not one you "can't" have inspected. But... you seem to be a
bit picky he

1) The kitchen, bath, and laundry room are in the cellar.

In other words, the house has a unique design. So? Do you like it or
not like it? Is it a good design, or will it just be annoying and hard
to resell?

the street. On the lower floor, new tile flooring, a new (raised)
bath, and inexpensive berber carpet on the (raised) dining area make it
impossible to see the subflooring and/or concrete and/or stone this
major part of the living area rests on.

I don't know what kind of house you want to buy that you will be able
to see what is beneath the flooring. Do you expect a sell to tear up
the floor so you can see the concrete or subfloor?

2) The square footage of the home is so small that the upper story (or
street-level floor) has no access at all to the crawl-space attic.

So? Many houses have no access to the attic. Is this a problem for you?
Did you want a bigger attic so you can store things up there? If so,
then this must not be the right house for you.

The
roof is not architectural but shows no stain, and there are new vinyl
soffits and gutters.

This description fits about three quarters of the houses in this state.
You seem to be looking for something else though...

3) The interior of the home is entirely clad in cheapo composite
panelling.

And I take it you want a house that doesn't have cheapo composite
panelling, right? For 50K I can't image you are going to get much
better though.

I asked the seller if a pest or home-inspector would be
allowed to remove a piece of the panelling in an unobtrusive part of
the home, perhaps the laundry room in the crevice at the front of the
lower/cellar. He said no.

If I were the seller, I would say no too. Tearing up the walls is not
part of the home selling process.

4) The breaker box is 25 years old

Again, completely normal. Most houses are 25 years old, and few will
get a new breaker box ever, or at least not in the first 40 years or
so.

--an I.T.E.

I don't know anything about I.T.E. But you apparently don't want a
house with and I.T.E. box.

I noticed what seemed
an unusual amount of outlets for a home this size and this age. There
were all grounded,

So the house has a good number of correctly installed outlets. But you
wanted fewer outlets. Or maybe ungrounded ones?

but the wiring is all hidden behind the panelling
and/or dropped ceilings.

... and you must have had your heart set on exposed wiring.

5) This FSBO seller does not realize that I know he owns a major strip
mall in a well-trafficked, high-income area. He also does not know
that I'm aware he's affluent.

So? How does the sellers income, lifestyle, or occupation affect the
house? Are you trying to say he doesn't deserve a fair price?

He will not give me his home address,

I wouldn't either. Why should he until you make an offer or start
negotiating?

but because our local newspaper makes public the property tax records
for the county (something I think is an invitation to disaster in the
wrong hands, BTW), through a little sleuthing I was able to find out
who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really is.

And unless there is something shady about who "(Blank) + (Blank)"
really is, what is the problem? Are you buying from the mob? Was it
"really" owned by someone of an ethnicity or religion you don't want to
be associated with? When I bought, I certainly didn't ask the sellers
for a home address (they had already moved out), and didn't ask for
their realators home address either. And when I did a little sleuthing,
I found out who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really was: a company that
sells and buys houses, owned by some people that live in a nearby city.
So what?


From the next-door neighbor to this bungalow, I learned that this
enterpreneur purchased this home as a Fannie Mae foreclosure in August
for 48K, laid the berber carpet, redid the bathroom, and is selling it
for a price in the low 60s.

Which seems like reasonable fair thing to do. Put a few thousand in
materials and labor, plus time and risk, and ask about 10k more than
you purchased it. In fact, sounds downright entreprenurial.

The neighbor has told me about past owners and has assured me the home
was always well-maintained.

And you were hoping for...?

I am always suspicious though of homes

I can tell.

Well, thank you for reading this. The seller is almost strangely
reluctant to continue with the sale,

I would be too, especially since "the sale" doesn't exist and won't
exist until you make an offer and begin negotiating.

having twice cancelled scheduled
"pre-sales-agreement" walk-throughs by my electrician.

How many walk-throughs have you had? And why did you schedule a
walk-through for an electrician, but not a home inspector?

I have concentrated on the questionable or negative aspects of this
property, and I'm not sure they are questionable or negative at all.

Yes you have, an no they are not.


I
don't intend to offer what he's asking, but the size of the lot alone
would make the property desirable;

Desirable in what sort of way? You want a big house with ordinary
layout, exposed wiring, architectural shingles, no flooring, a few
ungrounded outlets, and previous owners that didn't maintain the place.
So this house isn't for you. I might like it myself, it sounds pretty
good for the price.

Thanks Kevin! I enjoyed your interpretation.

Brigitte

wrote in message
ups.com...

4) The breaker box is 25 years old--an I.T.E. I noticed what seemed
an unusual amount of outlets for a home this size and this age. There
were all grounded, but the wiring is all hidden behind the panelling
and/or dropped ceilings.

By the way, how did you determine that the outlets were properly grounded?
Hopefully not just by seeing that they had the 3rd prong opening. Home
supply stores sell cheap little devices you can plug in, and a series of
LEDs light up, telling you what's what.

wrote:
Doug, Doug, and Non-Dougs: Thanks for the input. I particularly liked
the Gee, I Made a Mistake line of reasoning and will memorize it.

Our family attorney often says that instead of paying a home inspector,
it's a better idea to do exactly what one of "yooz" said--get
individual experts at whatever may need renovation, and get an
estimate.

Thanks again, very much.


This is incredibly bad advice. Suppose the house doesn't need
renovation or only the kitchen does? Following this logic, you would
have no inspection or bring in a kitchen renovation company. What is
that going to tell you about the foundation, drainage, roof, electric
system, plumbing, furnace, etc? A good home inspector has the
ability to inspect everything. He may identify some areas where you
then want to bring in another expert, say for a foundation issue. But
for the average homebuyer to skip an inspection or only look at areas
that you think need renovation is a very big mistake.

Plus, in many cases the inspection is free, because the inspector will
find more wrong than the cost of the inspection. With the report in
hand, you can usually get the seller to negotiate more than enough off
the price to pay for the inspection. Anyone selling a house pretty
much expects this.

If you cant inspect it, walk.

wrote:

5) This FSBO seller does not realize that I know he owns a major strip
mall in a well-trafficked, high-income area. He also does not know
that I'm aware he's affluent. He will not give me his home address,
but because our local newspaper makes public the property tax records
for the county (something I think is an invitation to disaster in the
wrong hands, BTW), through a little sleuthing I was able to find out
who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really is.

In Fl all county property tax records are a matter of public record via
the county's property appraisers website.

wrote:

For most people, a house is the single largest investment they make
... they have neither the time nor the abilities to renovate or
build ... the house has to be right.

First, thanks for all the input, but particularly to Ken. All the
suffering caused by purchasing a home with rose-colored
glasses--whether it's a shack for 30K or a million-dollar mansion--
Well, all you have to do is see the shiny happy middle-aged-and-older
folks chained to Home Depot or Lowe's on the first nice spring weekend.


I didn't make the post to sound picayune, as a few of you seem to
think. In my younger years, I bought a house in the frame of mind
that, "Well, all I'll have to do in this room is--" and "All I'll have
to do in that is--" It took fifteen years off my life, I ended up
selling because of unfathomably huge masonry issues (them old-timers
really had a hankering for pouring all the cement they could lay their
hands on, it seems), and now I'm super-critical.

But I don't begrudge any enterpreneur the chance to make a few bucks.
I think more than anything, I'm just puzzled as to why a rich guy would
ever have bought this place to begin with and why he seems so
unmotivated in regard to selling it. Maybe he's just eccentric.

Getting back to what Doug with the beer-cooler dining room said-- I
honestly have been through enough "lemons" (and owned one!) to know
what to be wary of without the benefit (notice I say BENEFIT) of a home
inspector. For example, what kind of mold problems might be
encountered in a home where there is no access to the attic at all?
That's when you start with the, "Well, I'll only have to cut a hold yay
big in the corner of the back room, and get out my 8 foot ladder...and
lay joists...and plywood...in the dark...and maybe with the company of
hornest whose home I've just disturbed..."

God, I think I just talked myself out of it. But how do you find an
old or older home where vital systems are accessible to inspectors
(and/or professionals)? I don't think most people realize how fond
home builders prior to the 90's were of sealing up everything so that
inspection is at best perfunctory.

wrote:
wrote:

For most people, a house is the single largest investment they make
... they have neither the time nor the abilities to renovate or
build ... the house has to be right.

First, thanks for all the input, but particularly to Ken. All the
suffering caused by purchasing a home with rose-colored
glasses--whether it's a shack for 30K or a million-dollar mansion--
Well, all you have to do is see the shiny happy middle-aged-and-older
folks chained to Home Depot or Lowe's on the first nice spring weekend.


I didn't make the post to sound picayune, as a few of you seem to
think. In my younger years, I bought a house in the frame of mind
that, "Well, all I'll have to do in this room is--" and "All I'll have
to do in that is--" It took fifteen years off my life, I ended up
selling because of unfathomably huge masonry issues (them old-timers
really had a hankering for pouring all the cement they could lay their
hands on, it seems), and now I'm super-critical.

But I don't begrudge any enterpreneur the chance to make a few bucks.
I think more than anything, I'm just puzzled as to why a rich guy would
ever have bought this place to begin with and why he seems so
unmotivated in regard to selling it. Maybe he's just eccentric.

Getting back to what Doug with the beer-cooler dining room said-- I
honestly have been through enough "lemons" (and owned one!) to know
what to be wary of without the benefit (notice I say BENEFIT) of a home
inspector. For example, what kind of mold problems might be
encountered in a home where there is no access to the attic at all?
That's when you start with the, "Well, I'll only have to cut a hold yay
big in the corner of the back room, and get out my 8 foot ladder...and
lay joists...and plywood...in the dark...and maybe with the company of
hornest whose home I've just disturbed..."

God, I think I just talked myself out of it. But how do you find an
old or older home where vital systems are accessible to inspectors
(and/or professionals)? I don't think most people realize how fond
home builders prior to the 90's were of sealing up everything so that
inspection is at best perfunctory.



The age of a home shouldn't have much impact on the home being
accessible to inspectors. I've seen a lot of older homes and it's
unusual not to have a way to access the attic. There is no reason an
inspection should be perfunctory. But, go ahead and listen to your
lawyer if you like, and skip an inspection. A search of this
newsgroup will uncover lots of folks that made that mistake.

wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
wrote:

For most people, a house is the single largest investment they make
... they have neither the time nor the abilities to renovate or
build ... the house has to be right.

First, thanks for all the input, but particularly to Ken. All the
suffering caused by purchasing a home with rose-colored
glasses--whether it's a shack for 30K or a million-dollar mansion--
Well, all you have to do is see the shiny happy middle-aged-and-older
folks chained to Home Depot or Lowe's on the first nice spring weekend.


I didn't make the post to sound picayune, as a few of you seem to
think. In my younger years, I bought a house in the frame of mind
that, "Well, all I'll have to do in this room is--" and "All I'll have
to do in that is--" It took fifteen years off my life, I ended up
selling because of unfathomably huge masonry issues (them old-timers
really had a hankering for pouring all the cement they could lay their
hands on, it seems), and now I'm super-critical.

But I don't begrudge any enterpreneur the chance to make a few bucks.
I think more than anything, I'm just puzzled as to why a rich guy would
ever have bought this place to begin with and why he seems so
unmotivated in regard to selling it. Maybe he's just eccentric.

Getting back to what Doug with the beer-cooler dining room said-- I
honestly have been through enough "lemons" (and owned one!) to know
what to be wary of without the benefit (notice I say BENEFIT) of a home
inspector. For example, what kind of mold problems might be
encountered in a home where there is no access to the attic at all?
That's when you start with the, "Well, I'll only have to cut a hold yay
big in the corner of the back room, and get out my 8 foot ladder...and
lay joists...and plywood...in the dark...and maybe with the company of
hornest whose home I've just disturbed..."

God, I think I just talked myself out of it. But how do you find an
old or older home where vital systems are accessible to inspectors
(and/or professionals)? I don't think most people realize how fond
home builders prior to the 90's were of sealing up everything so that
inspection is at best perfunctory.



The age of a home shouldn't have much impact on the home being
accessible to inspectors. I've seen a lot of older homes and it's
unusual not to have a way to access the attic. There is no reason an
inspection should be perfunctory. But, go ahead and listen to your
lawyer if you like, and skip an inspection. A search of this
newsgroup will uncover lots of folks that made that mistake.


At the very least, bring in 2-3 friends whose opinions you trust. They're
not emotionally involved with the house. By the way, did you lift any of the
dropped ceiling tiles and peek inside with a serious flashlight, to see why
there are dropped ceilings? Aside from commercial installations, or finished
basements, there's almost always a nasty reason why dropped ceilings are
installed. Aside from bad taste, that is.

On 16 Mar 2006 04:49:14 -0800, wrote:

I live in an economically depressed area of the NE US where a decent
old six-room home averages 80K and up.

I found a very old but apparently well-maintained FSBO bungalow-style
home that literally can't be inspected by a home inspector. There are
several reasons for this.

1) The kitchen, bath, and laundry room are in the cellar. This is
because the (large) lot the bungalow is on is on a hillside. The
"upper" story is actually the story with the door and mailbox that face
the street. On the lower floor, new tile flooring, a new (raised)
bath, and inexpensive berber carpet on the (raised) dining area make it
impossible to see the subflooring and/or concrete and/or stone this
major part of the living area rests on.

2) The square footage of the home is so small that the upper story (or
street-level floor) has no access at all to the crawl-space attic. The
roof is not architectural but shows no stain, and there are new vinyl
soffits and gutters.

3) The interior of the home is entirely clad in cheapo composite
panelling. I asked the seller if a pest or home-inspector would be
allowed to remove a piece of the panelling in an unobtrusive part of
the home, perhaps the laundry room in the crevice at the front of the
lower/cellar. He said no.

4) The breaker box is 25 years old--an I.T.E. I noticed what seemed
an unusual amount of outlets for a home this size and this age. There
were all grounded, but the wiring is all hidden behind the panelling
and/or dropped ceilings.

5) This FSBO seller does not realize that I know he owns a major strip
mall in a well-trafficked, high-income area. He also does not know
that I'm aware he's affluent. He will not give me his home address,
but because our local newspaper makes public the property tax records
for the county (something I think is an invitation to disaster in the
wrong hands, BTW), through a little sleuthing I was able to find out
who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really is.

From the next-door neighbor to this bungalow, I learned that this
enterpreneur purchased this home as a Fannie Mae foreclosure in August
for 48K, laid the berber carpet, redid the bathroom, and is selling it
for a price in the low 60s.

The neighbor has told me about past owners and has assured me the home
was always well-maintained. I am always suspicious though of homes
were the seller or realtor stresses "newly painted" and "new carpet,"
as these are the cheapest, easiest fixes.

Well, thank you for reading this. The seller is almost strangely
reluctant to continue with the sale, having twice cancelled scheduled
"pre-sales-agreement" walk-throughs by my electrician.

I have concentrated on the questionable or negative aspects of this
property, and I'm not sure they are questionable or negative at all. I
don't intend to offer what he's asking, but the size of the lot alone
would make the property desirable; and as far as depressed communities
in my region are concerned, this community is among the most desirable
because of a county community college.

Again, thanks for reading and maybe posting your thoughts.


It sounds as if the seller is looking for a sucker. HE knows
what he thinks he can move the house for, do you know something
he doesn't? Didn't think to.

Figure each thing that you can't look at has got something wrong
with it that's going to cost you about $5,000 to fix if you do it
yourself, or $10,000 if you hire it done. Is it still a good
deal on that basis?

Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
wrote:

For most people, a house is the single largest investment they make
... they have neither the time nor the abilities to renovate or
build ... the house has to be right.

First, thanks for all the input, but particularly to Ken. All the
suffering caused by purchasing a home with rose-colored
glasses--whether it's a shack for 30K or a million-dollar mansion--
Well, all you have to do is see the shiny happy middle-aged-and-older
folks chained to Home Depot or Lowe's on the first nice spring weekend.


I didn't make the post to sound picayune, as a few of you seem to
think. In my younger years, I bought a house in the frame of mind
that, "Well, all I'll have to do in this room is--" and "All I'll have
to do in that is--" It took fifteen years off my life, I ended up
selling because of unfathomably huge masonry issues (them old-timers
really had a hankering for pouring all the cement they could lay their
hands on, it seems), and now I'm super-critical.

But I don't begrudge any enterpreneur the chance to make a few bucks.
I think more than anything, I'm just puzzled as to why a rich guy would
ever have bought this place to begin with and why he seems so
unmotivated in regard to selling it. Maybe he's just eccentric.

Getting back to what Doug with the beer-cooler dining room said-- I
honestly have been through enough "lemons" (and owned one!) to know
what to be wary of without the benefit (notice I say BENEFIT) of a home
inspector. For example, what kind of mold problems might be
encountered in a home where there is no access to the attic at all?
That's when you start with the, "Well, I'll only have to cut a hold yay
big in the corner of the back room, and get out my 8 foot ladder...and
lay joists...and plywood...in the dark...and maybe with the company of
hornest whose home I've just disturbed..."

God, I think I just talked myself out of it. But how do you find an
old or older home where vital systems are accessible to inspectors
(and/or professionals)? I don't think most people realize how fond
home builders prior to the 90's were of sealing up everything so that
inspection is at best perfunctory.



The age of a home shouldn't have much impact on the home being
accessible to inspectors. I've seen a lot of older homes and it's
unusual not to have a way to access the attic. There is no reason an
inspection should be perfunctory. But, go ahead and listen to your
lawyer if you like, and skip an inspection. A search of this
newsgroup will uncover lots of folks that made that mistake.


At the very least, bring in 2-3 friends whose opinions you trust. They're
not emotionally involved with the house.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that the 3 friends are not emotionally involved
will mean they can give good opinions as to the state of the
foundation, the roof and the furnace! LOL



By the way, did you lift any of the
dropped ceiling tiles and peek inside with a serious flashlight, to see why
there are dropped ceilings? Aside from commercial installations, or finished
basements, there's almost always a nasty reason why dropped ceilings are
installed. Aside from bad taste, that is.

wrote in message
ups.com...

At the very least, bring in 2-3 friends whose opinions you trust. They're
not emotionally involved with the house.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that the 3 friends are not emotionally involved
will mean they can give good opinions as to the state of the
foundation, the roof and the furnace! LOL

You're right. Nobody could possibly have anything of value to say,
regardless of their background or experience.

sounds like he is a pittsburger, county tax records on the net,
hillside homes and depressed prices. in some areas 50 grand can get you
a decent home.

sounds like a good deal the buyer bought it to flip, buy low fix up
selll and make a profit.

some like me would enjoy the project just dont get in over your head!!

and have fun fixing up houses can be rewarding both $ and more
important for self satisfaction..........

wrote:
sounds like he is a pittsburger, county tax records on the net,
hillside homes and depressed prices. in some areas 50 grand can get you
a decent home.

Where I live $50,000 won't even buy you a small nice duplex, much less
a home. By duplex I mean only ONE side.

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:48:11 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...
Doug, Doug, and Non-Dougs: Thanks for the input. I particularly liked
the Gee, I Made a Mistake line of reasoning and will memorize it.

Our family attorney often says that instead of paying a home inspector,
it's a better idea to do exactly what one of "yooz" said--get
individual experts at whatever may need renovation, and get an
estimate.

That gives you a real price, and puts you ahead on time if you do buy
it.

But if you start calling experts for parts of the house that are fine,
they'll stop coming out.

Thanks again, very much.

My home inspector totally missed the fact that part of my kitchen was built
over a crawl space instead of the basement. So, while pointing out minor
little things that would make the house warmer, they forgot the one big
thing - I can keep a case of beer on my dining area floor in the winter and
it'll be at perfect drinking temperature. I pointed this out to them (two of
them!) and they sorta blushed. They still spotted some worthwhile things,
but inspectors are not the be-all and end-all of resources.

And termite inspectors only inspect what they can see (no removing of
panelling) This house only has one room that is unfinished, so what
if the termites had been in the other room?

I'd be quite cautious about whether the house fits what is
common and customary in the market. If there are no others
like it, then you might have a terrible time selling it
later on. It also sounds like a lot of the house was
"homemade" by some owner and I'd be quite worried about what
was hidden behind the walls. That includes not only
construction defects, but also mold.

Mark

wrote in message
ups.com...
I live in an economically depressed area of the NE US where a decent
old six-room home averages 80K and up.


Would I buy it? No.

Should you buy it? Maybe.

Considerations:
Worst case scenario, can the house be taken down and the property still be
worth the price paid?

Can you live in it for a few years "as is" and do what work is needed? Will
that increase the value over cost?

Sounds like it will need some work, perhaps major. Can you handle that
emotionally as well as financially?

Mark and Gloria Hagwood wrote:
I'd be quite cautious about whether the house fits what is
common and customary in the market. If there are no others
like it, then you might have a terrible time selling it
later on. It also sounds like a lot of the house was
"homemade" by some owner and I'd be quite worried about what
was hidden behind the walls. That includes not only
construction defects, but also mold.

Very interesting that you should say this. I called the seller, got
his voicemail, and left a lengthy explanation of why I wouldn't be
pursuing the purchase. I said "If I can't trot the horse, I can' t
risk him on the harness." I also said that if he lowered the asking
price 20K, to keep my number. I enumerated *all* of the reasons folks
on this thread have discussed; and I certainly never expected to hear
from him again.

Well, lo and behold, I got an immediate response, saying Why Worry
About Plumbing (when there's so little of it)? Yeah, the wiring is 35
years old... (And then nothing about having 35 year old wiring even
examined.) You Can Always Take Off a Block of Soffit If You Ever Have
to See Into the Attic. Those were his exact words.

Apparently this guy is either much more inept or much more practiced at
flipping homes than I thought, and had no reaction whatever to my
calling to his attention the fact that the inability to examine even
*ONE* of the home's money-swallowing systems would most likely impact
other potential buyers negatively.

I am so glad I made this post. Yeah, I suppose I knew what I was going
to do all along, but I needed help articulating it. Thanks lots,
a.h.r. folks. Happy St. Patrick's Day!

wrote in message
oups.com...

Yeah, the wiring is 35
years old... (And then nothing about having 35 year old wiring even
examined.)

As you look at other houses, don't obsess about the age of the wiring. It's
not the age that counts - its how it was done. My house was built in 1956
and has original wiring. The wiring's in gorgeous shape, and except for the
garage, it's all original. The way it's bundled and stapled in place, it's
obvious the electrician was obsessive about details. By way of comparison, I
recently added a new circuit in the basement of a friend's 10 year old
house. I found that someone had run 3 wires in one side of a heating duct
and out the other.Sharp metal edges, in other words. Idiots.

wrote in message:
I am so glad I made this post.

Me, too! This thread has been an interesting read!

U.R. Hosed


*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

wrote in message
oups.com...
Doug Kanter wrote:

As you look at other houses, don't obsess about the age of the wiring.
It's
not the age that counts - its how it was done. My house was built in 1956
and has original wiring. The wiring's in gorgeous shape, and except for
the
garage, it's all original. The way it's bundled and stapled in place,
it's
obvious the electrician was obsessive about details.

Heck, I suppose I'd buy something with knob-and-tube if at least a good
solid run of it could be examined. A realtor I admire recently took me
through another of these bungalows, much more new than the one I posted
about. The owner had passed away just that week, and there were still
dishes in the sink.

Despite this, I fell in love with the construction and well-maintained
place. Then we went down into the huge cellar, and the realtor took a
look at the breaker box, and said, "Nope, I want you to pass on this
one." The box was Federal Pacific.

All I know is that when I sold my Concrete-Is-Us money pit, I just
stood back and let realtors and potential buyers prod, poke, and peel
back whatever they wanted (within reason). I don't think it matters
what your income or socioeconomic group, but to have major elements of
vital systems totally concealed from view-- Well, it's a risk I won't
post about here again. Next time I'll remind myself of the caution
flags on this thread.


If people would just be honest about this stuff, the results would amaze
them. When I bought my first house, the owners said there had been water
problems in the basement, and they hadn't been there long enough to figure
out why. OK. That satisfied me. The rest of the house was fine. I made sure
no water sensitive items were on the basement floor. I knew what to expect.
until a spring thaw had occurred and we saw the problem. Took us two years
to fix the problem, but we did it.

When I sold my 1992 Ford Taurus, I advertised it as "$1500.00 selling price.
Real cost $2500.000 - needs this & that". I had a dozen calls in two days
and it was sold on the third. People don't like surprises.

Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Yeah, the wiring is 35
years old... (And then nothing about having 35 year old wiring even
examined.)

As you look at other houses, don't obsess about the age of the wiring. It's
not the age that counts - its how it was done. My house was built in 1956
and has original wiring. The wiring's in gorgeous shape, and except for the
garage, it's all original. The way it's bundled and stapled in place, it's
obvious the electrician was obsessive about details. By way of comparison, I
recently added a new circuit in the basement of a friend's 10 year old
house. I found that someone had run 3 wires in one side of a heating duct
and out the other.Sharp metal edges, in other words. Idiots.


So she should buy a house with knob and tube wiring, because as long as
it was done correctly, it's still good? Geesh!

wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:

As you look at other houses, don't obsess about the age of the wiring. It's
not the age that counts - its how it was done. My house was built in 1956
and has original wiring. The wiring's in gorgeous shape, and except for the
garage, it's all original. The way it's bundled and stapled in place, it's
obvious the electrician was obsessive about details.

Heck, I suppose I'd buy something with knob-and-tube if at least a good
solid run of it could be examined. A realtor I admire recently took me
through another of these bungalows, much more new than the one I posted
about. The owner had passed away just that week, and there were still
dishes in the sink.

Despite this, I fell in love with the construction and well-maintained
place. Then we went down into the huge cellar, and the realtor took a
look at the breaker box, and said, "Nope, I want you to pass on this
one." The box was Federal Pacific.


More level headed thinking. On the advice of your attorney, don't hire
a home inspector. And then, on the advice of a realtor, walk on a
house because of the brand of breaker box. If I were you, I'd give up
on buying anything, because you are clueless.




All I know is that when I sold my Concrete-Is-Us money pit, I just
stood back and let realtors and potential buyers prod, poke, and peel
back whatever they wanted (within reason). I don't think it matters
what your income or socioeconomic group, but to have major elements of
vital systems totally concealed from view-- Well, it's a risk I won't
post about here again. Next time I'll remind myself of the caution
flags on this thread.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Doug Kanter wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Yeah, the wiring is 35
years old... (And then nothing about having 35 year old wiring even
examined.)

As you look at other houses, don't obsess about the age of the wiring.
It's
not the age that counts - its how it was done. My house was built in 1956
and has original wiring. The wiring's in gorgeous shape, and except for
the
garage, it's all original. The way it's bundled and stapled in place,
it's
obvious the electrician was obsessive about details. By way of
comparison, I
recently added a new circuit in the basement of a friend's 10 year old
house. I found that someone had run 3 wires in one side of a heating duct
and out the other.Sharp metal edges, in other words. Idiots.


So she should buy a house with knob and tube wiring, because as long as
it was done correctly, it's still good? Geesh!


What's knob & tube wiring?

In article , "Doug Kanter" wrote:

wrote in message
roups.com...

So she should buy a house with knob and tube wiring, because as long as
it was done correctly, it's still good? Geesh!


What's knob & tube wiring?

Google must be broken today. I *hate* it when that happens.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

So she should buy a house with knob and tube wiring, because as long as
it was done correctly, it's still good? Geesh!


What's knob & tube wiring?

Google must be broken today. I *hate* it when that happens.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Sheesh....I thought that of anyone here, you'd be sure to know what it was.
There goes my faith in humanity.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I live in an economically depressed area of the NE US where a decent
old six-room home averages 80K and up.

I found a very old but apparently well-maintained FSBO bungalow-style
home that literally can't be inspected by a home inspector. There are
several reasons for this.

1) The kitchen, bath, and laundry room are in the cellar. This is
because the (large) lot the bungalow is on is on a hillside. The
"upper" story is actually the story with the door and mailbox that face
the street. On the lower floor, new tile flooring, a new (raised)
bath, and inexpensive berber carpet on the (raised) dining area make it
impossible to see the subflooring and/or concrete and/or stone this
major part of the living area rests on.

2) The square footage of the home is so small that the upper story (or
street-level floor) has no access at all to the crawl-space attic. The
roof is not architectural but shows no stain, and there are new vinyl
soffits and gutters.

3) The interior of the home is entirely clad in cheapo composite
panelling. I asked the seller if a pest or home-inspector would be
allowed to remove a piece of the panelling in an unobtrusive part of
the home, perhaps the laundry room in the crevice at the front of the
lower/cellar. He said no.

4) The breaker box is 25 years old--an I.T.E. I noticed what seemed
an unusual amount of outlets for a home this size and this age. There
were all grounded, but the wiring is all hidden behind the panelling
and/or dropped ceilings.

5) This FSBO seller does not realize that I know he owns a major strip
mall in a well-trafficked, high-income area. He also does not know
that I'm aware he's affluent. He will not give me his home address,
but because our local newspaper makes public the property tax records
for the county (something I think is an invitation to disaster in the
wrong hands, BTW), through a little sleuthing I was able to find out
who "(Blank) + (Blank) Realty" really is.

From the next-door neighbor to this bungalow, I learned that this
enterpreneur purchased this home as a Fannie Mae foreclosure in August
for 48K, laid the berber carpet, redid the bathroom, and is selling it
for a price in the low 60s.

The neighbor has told me about past owners and has assured me the home
was always well-maintained. I am always suspicious though of homes
were the seller or realtor stresses "newly painted" and "new carpet,"
as these are the cheapest, easiest fixes.

Well, thank you for reading this. The seller is almost strangely
reluctant to continue with the sale, having twice cancelled scheduled
"pre-sales-agreement" walk-throughs by my electrician.

I have concentrated on the questionable or negative aspects of this
property, and I'm not sure they are questionable or negative at all. I
don't intend to offer what he's asking, but the size of the lot alone
would make the property desirable; and as far as depressed communities
in my region are concerned, this community is among the most desirable
because of a county community college.

Again, thanks for reading and maybe posting your thoughts.

doesn't matter. Yes I would buy it.

-Doug Kanter wrote:


What's knob & tube wiring?

I included an overview of know and tube below. While we've done quite a
lot of electrical work at our house, we still have a bit of active knob and
tube wiring. We made certain to have our electrician inspect all visible
portions. Speaking from experience, it can be hard to insure a home with
knob and tube wiring.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduit

Knob and Tube
The earliest standardized method of wiring in buildings, from about 1880 to
the 1940s, was single cloth-insulated copper conductors run across interior
walls or within ceiling cavities, passing through joist and stud
drill-holes via protective porcelain insulating tubes, and supported along
their length on nailed-down porcelain "knob" insulators. This system is
known as "knob-and-tube" from the insulators used. Where conductors entered
a wiring device such as a lamp or switch, they were protected by flexible
cloth insulating sleeving. Wire splices in such installations were twisted
for good mechanical strength, then soldered and wrapped with "friction"
tape (asphalt saturated cloth), or made inside metal junction boxes.

Historically, the standards for installing electrical wiring were less
stringent in the age of knob-and-tube wiring than they are today. Compared
to modern electrical wiring standards, the main shortcomings of
knob-and-tube era wiring a knob-and-tube wiring never included a safety
ground conductor; knob-and-tube wiring did not confine switching to the hot
conductor; knob-and-tube wiring permitted the use of in-line-splices in
walls without using an accessible junction box to contain the splice.

Older homes may have knob-and-tube wiring for all or part of their
electrical system. Such wiring systems require replacement and
modernization, as it is inadequate for modern levels of power use. Wiring
may have been damaged by renovations done in the building, and insulation
covering the wires may be brittle due to age or may be damaged by rodents
or carelessness (for example, hanging objects off wiring running in
accessible areas like basements).

- Ron wrote:

wrote:
sounds like he is a pittsburger, county tax records on the net,
hillside homes and depressed prices. in some areas 50 grand can get you
a decent home.

Where I live $50,000 won't even buy you a small nice duplex, much less
a home. By duplex I mean only ONE side.

Prices in Pittsburgh are very affordable, but $50,000 may be a bit
misleading. As with anywhere, location, size and condition play a
significant role. In my neighborhood, most homes are still going for under
$100,000. In areas like Squirrel Hill, you'll find million-dollar homes
(as well as more affordable homes). Areas that are experiencing a
resurgence (such as Lawrenceville) have a range of prices, but are still
generally cheap.

The cost of living is a very appealing aspect of Pittsburgh. When my wife
and I bought our home, our monthly mortgage payment was lower than what we
had been paying for rent (which wasn't a lot).

mark

In article .com,
says...

Doug Kanter wrote:

As you look at other houses, don't obsess about the age of the wiring. It's
not the age that counts - its how it was done. My house was built in 1956
and has original wiring. The wiring's in gorgeous shape, and except for the
garage, it's all original. The way it's bundled and stapled in place, it's
obvious the electrician was obsessive about details.

Heck, I suppose I'd buy something with knob-and-tube if at least a good
solid run of it could be examined. A realtor I admire recently took me
through another of these bungalows, much more new than the one I posted
about. The owner had passed away just that week, and there were still
dishes in the sink.

Despite this, I fell in love with the construction and well-maintained
place. Then we went down into the huge cellar, and the realtor took a
look at the breaker box, and said, "Nope, I want you to pass on this
one." The box was Federal Pacific.

All I know is that when I sold my Concrete-Is-Us money pit, I just
stood back and let realtors and potential buyers prod, poke, and peel
back whatever they wanted (within reason). I don't think it matters
what your income or socioeconomic group, but to have major elements of
vital systems totally concealed from view-- Well, it's a risk I won't
post about here again. Next time I'll remind myself of the caution
flags on this thread.


I've been reading this thread, but still maybe I missed it. But my question is -
why are you looking at this house (I don't mean that in a snarky way.) Is it to
live in? Do you like the style and layout, as unconventional as it may be? Do
you plan to live in it for a long time? (If you like the layout and will be
there for a very long time, forget about the next buyer - someone like *you*
will come along..)

Because there is no perfect house (and, yes, I've buried more than ten thousand
for a foundation fix for my house). If you're looking at older construction,
which clearly you are, do you know what you really want, don't want to deal
with, are OK to deal with? And how much to worry, or not worry, about getting
it sold in the future?

Because some of these things seem a bit odd. For example, how often do you
think electric would be totally updated? It's not very often unless there's a
total remod or the system has become totally outmoded to the point of concerns
about safety (like Al wiring). If 35 year old electric scares you, you'd have
to walk away from every house built since 1970 unless it's been totally
remodelled. Which not many houses built in 1970 are. Because frankly that's
not really so old.

Do you have a good handle on what you want, what you are confortable dealing
with, etc? I think you may be outsmarting yourself here trying to get
everything 'right'.

Banty