When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA

Just a couple of real WAGs.

Surges on the supply line?
Vermin crawling through the breaker box?
A prankster in the house?

Were the handles of the breakers found in the "tripped" position or the
"off" position, and what brand circuit breaker?


"Ajax" wrote in message
...

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA

In many breakers like Cutler-Hammer, they trip all the way to the off
position.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Were the handles of the breakers found in the "tripped" position or the
"off" position, and what brand circuit breaker?


"Ajax" wrote in message
...

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA

"Ajax" wrote in message
...

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA

IF all the tests and visual inspections were done competently, then my first
course of action would be to replace the breakers. Cheap or defective
breakers trip easily. Power fluctuation from the utility are common, and if
a breaker can't take a normal fluctuation without tripping it is a nuisance.
My other concern would be the fridge. It seems to be the likely suspect here
(assuming the wiring tests out OK). If the capacitor in the fridge is on
it's way out it would cause intermittent surges. You might get it tested.
Many a fire has been started by a failing fridge.

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:03:28 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Were the handles of the breakers found in the "tripped" position or the
"off" position, and what brand circuit breaker?

They were tripped, not just simply turned off.




"Ajax" wrote in message
.. .

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:16:02 -0500, "Bob" wrote:

In many breakers like Cutler-Hammer, they trip all the way to the off
position.

This is a GE main panel.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Were the handles of the breakers found in the "tripped" position or the
"off" position, and what brand circuit breaker?


"Ajax" wrote in message
...

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:43:03 GMT, Al Moran
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:10:55 -0500, Ajax wrote:



Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA


I know exactly why, somethings ****ed up and they need to get the
contractor back out there before the house burns down.

Thanks for the insightful review of the problem, Al. The contractor
and the electrician have both been to the job and both are baffled.
The electrician spent hours testing the system with everything testing
perfectly.

change breakers that tripped with brand new ones. if another trip
occurs on the fridge circuit move it to another location. if fridge
trips breaker at new location then you know its the cause.

intermittent troubles can be a pia

Ajax wrote:
When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA

My first thought is to wonder if they pulled those breakers out of some
condemed house, and they are used and warn.

My second thought is somebody is pulling your leg. Though tripping a
60A breaker would take a bit of courage.

My third thought is that I need more coffee.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

....
:
: It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power
to the
: subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six
weeks ago
: and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.
:
: Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an
anomaly
: that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred.
But
: the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has
caused my
: friends some concern.
:
: Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the
problems that
: they experienced?
:
: TIA

All the "testers" in the world, great as they are most of the
time, are only as good as their design and the users.

I'd say it's time to put the testers away and get down to some
real world troubleshooting with eyeballs and good old analog
meters after eyeballing what's about to be measured.
I just got thru with a 4-trip "fix" for a battery discharging
problem in my Buick. They pronounced it fixed each time I picked
the car up. It wasn't, and it took me all of about 5 minutes to
get out my Triplett, disconnect the positive terminal of the
battery, and see in excess of 3 Amps flowing with everything
turned off and the doors closed. But it tested perfectly every
time on their "tester". It's $650 later right now, it's fixed
finally, and I'm waiting for them to respond to see if I take
them to small claims court or they drop the phoney fixes that
weren't fixes, thanks to their computer diagnostics et al.

I have no idea what your source of the problem may be though.
Can't see it, and wondering if the testers are doing what they
need to do in this particular case.

HTH,

Pop

According to Ajax :

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

then stuff about a subpanel breaker going.

Sounds to me that they have to go over the innards of the main,
and the feed line to the subpanel inch by inch. Wearing
eye protection and gloves, wiggle the cable on every staple and
box clamp. Check for wire exposure on the inside of every box,
gaps in tape covering of splice connectors etc.

It could be a piece of defective cable, or an over tightened
box clamp that only causes a short when the cable moves (thru
temperature changes, wind shake or whatever).

I have encountered defective cable where it's not possible to see the
defect, even after it's blown the breaker multiple times. In
my case, it was a solid short. In this case it sounds like an
externally-induced intermittent.

An intermittent short of this nature won't be detectable with any
kind of metering until its fried the insulation enough to provide
a carbonized conduction path. You don't want to let it go
that far...

Either that, or they have gremlins.

Run the thermal detector over the inside of the main panel
and subpanel too.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Ajax :

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.


then stuff about a subpanel breaker going.


Sounds to me that they have to go over the innards of the main,
and the feed line to the subpanel inch by inch. Wearing
eye protection and gloves, wiggle the cable on every staple and
box clamp. Check for wire exposure on the inside of every box,
gaps in tape covering of splice connectors etc.

It could be a piece of defective cable, or an over tightened
box clamp that only causes a short when the cable moves (thru
temperature changes, wind shake or whatever).

I have encountered defective cable where it's not possible to see the
defect, even after it's blown the breaker multiple times. In
my case, it was a solid short. In this case it sounds like an
externally-induced intermittent.

An intermittent short of this nature won't be detectable with any
kind of metering until its fried the insulation enough to provide
a carbonized conduction path. You don't want to let it go
that far...

Either that, or they have gremlins.

Run the thermal detector over the inside of the main panel
and subpanel too.

That thought just occured to me as well. Breakers are not electronic
but thermal in nature. If that room of the house became very hot for
whatever reason, you could get a lot of trips from odd circuits.

Also check for water or other conductive fluid leaks in the area of the
panel.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

BP wrote:
"Ajax" wrote in message
...

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA


IF all the tests and visual inspections were done competently, then my first
course of action would be to replace the breakers. Cheap or defective
breakers trip easily. Power fluctuation from the utility are common, and if
a breaker can't take a normal fluctuation without tripping it is a nuisance.
My other concern would be the fridge. It seems to be the likely suspect here
(assuming the wiring tests out OK). If the capacitor in the fridge is on
it's way out it would cause intermittent surges. You might get it tested.
Many a fire has been started by a failing fridge.


Even if a power fluctuation caused the problem,
how would you know it was a normal fluctuation;
could have been a one in 20 year fluctuation.

"Many a fire has been started......." Like how
many? Out of every 100,000 home fires, how many
started by a failing refrigerator? In fact, how
many started by any failing large appliance
propertly installed, including clothes dryers
which do start fires?

After the OP's test the obvious course of action
is to be watchful but do nothing.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
BP wrote:
"Ajax" wrote in message
...

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

The Garage circuit was about 12 years old and the hot tub circuit was
only weeks old. The two breakers are not in close proximity to each
other in the main panel.

They reset both breakers and they have not tripped since [two weeks].

Today the sixty amp double pole breaker that is feeding a recently
built master bedroom / bathroom tripped. This breaker feeds from the
main panel to a subpanel that houses the breakers for the addition.

The subpanel includes two 20 amp single pole Arc-Fault breakers for
the bedroom, two twenty amp single pole breakers that feed directly to
two GFCI type outlets in the bathroom and two unassigned breakers.

At the time the 60 amp breaker tripped only the two Arc-Fault
breakers were turned on. Neither of the Arc-Fault breakers tripped.
Therefore it seems unlikely that an event from the new room caused the
60 amp breaker to trip.

At the time of the trip, the total load on the 60 amp breaker, via
the new addition subpanel, was comprised of one digital one analog
alarm clock.

Prior to and after the 60 amp breaker tripped the branch circuits
served by the new addition subpanel were tested with an Ideal #61-155
circuit analyzer.

This device tests for a host of electrical problems, including: True
RMS, voltage drop, line voltage, peak voltage, frequency, ground
impedance, hot and neutral impedance, ground-neutral voltage, false
and false grounds. Everything tested perfectly.

It also successfully tested the GFCI outlet devices and the Arc-
Fault breakers.

This test runs the entire circuit, including the conductors used
between the main panel and the new subpanel and the new 60 amp double
pole breaker in the main panel that supplies the new subpanel.

Assuming that any trouble in the new addition would have tripped the
Arc-Fault breakers, we guessed that the problem must lie somewhere
between the new subpanel and the existing main panel. This would
reduce the scope of the search to the conductor, the new 60 amp double
pole breaker and the main panel.

The conductor is brand new copper UF cable. The Ideal meter test
showed no indication of high impedance. An inspection of the main
panel showed no indication of a short circuit, arcing or overheating.

When the 60 amp double pole breaker was turned back on it stayed on
and was cold to the touch. When checked thirty minutes later with an
infrared thermometer, the temperature was normal, as were the rest of
the breakers.

It should be noted that the 60 amp circuit that supplies power to the
subpanel for the room addition had been turned on over six weeks ago
and had operated flawlessly until this afternoon.

Any one of the single pole breakers tripping would just be an anomaly
that would not need to be answered unless the problem recurred. But
the 60 amp double pole breaker tripping under no load has caused my
friends some concern.

Can anyone think of a circumstance that would cause the problems that
they experienced?

TIA


IF all the tests and visual inspections were done competently, then my
first course of action would be to replace the breakers. Cheap or
defective breakers trip easily. Power fluctuation from the utility are
common, and if a breaker can't take a normal fluctuation without tripping
it is a nuisance.
My other concern would be the fridge. It seems to be the likely suspect
here (assuming the wiring tests out OK). If the capacitor in the fridge
is on it's way out it would cause intermittent surges. You might get it
tested. Many a fire has been started by a failing fridge.
Even if a power fluctuation caused the problem, how would you know it was
a normal fluctuation; could have been a one in 20 year fluctuation.

"Many a fire has been started......." Like how many? Out of every
100,000 home fires, how many started by a failing refrigerator? In fact,
how many started by any failing large appliance propertly installed,
including clothes dryers which do start fires?

After the OP's test the obvious course of action is to be watchful but do
nothing.

So many shots. So little time.

An apartment building in my town burned to the ground last year, started by
a fridge. Old compressors overheat....lots of dust....
There is a great little gadget on the web called Google. You should try it.
Just type in "Refrigerator fire" and see what you get.

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:22:05 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Ajax :

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

then stuff about a subpanel breaker going.

Sounds to me that they have to go over the innards of the main,
and the feed line to the subpanel inch by inch. Wearing
eye protection and gloves, wiggle the cable on every staple and
box clamp. Check for wire exposure on the inside of every box,
gaps in tape covering of splice connectors etc.

It could be a piece of defective cable, or an over tightened
box clamp that only causes a short when the cable moves (thru
temperature changes, wind shake or whatever).

I have encountered defective cable where it's not possible to see the
defect, even after it's blown the breaker multiple times. In
my case, it was a solid short. In this case it sounds like an
externally-induced intermittent.

An intermittent short of this nature won't be detectable with any
kind of metering until its fried the insulation enough to provide
a carbonized conduction path. You don't want to let it go
that far...

Either that, or they have gremlins.

Run the thermal detector over the inside of the main panel
and subpanel too.

Chris, I think that you were very close to what we discovered was the
problem. After replacing the 60 amp double pole breaker with another
new breaker, it continued to trip.

Thinking that one of the Arc-Fault breakers in the subpanel could
somehow be at fault, all breakers were removed from that panel and the
60 amp breaker continued to trip after about ten minutes.

When the conductors were removed from the 60 amp breaker, it didn't
trip. A test of the resistance in the conductors (underground UF
cable) were within normal ranges.

Next step: excavate the UF cable.

Problem: One of the homeowners buddies who had helped him install a
PVC line for a sewage pump had nicked the UF cable with a saw while
cutting the existing PVC line. He just drove the saw into the ground
as he cut the pipe, even though he had been warned that there were
electric lines in that area.

The cut in the insulation was enough to cause some arcing between one
of the hot legs and ground. We suspect that the recent we weather
enhanced the ability of the conductors to arc. Part of the mystery is
that he did this work last Wednesday and it took until the following
Tuesday to start tripping the 60 amp breaker.

A few splice connectors with heat shrink insulation and the circuit
is purring like a kitten.

Lesson: Never trust a plumber with anything sharper than a can of PVC
glue.

In retrospect, what is really strange is that the saw cut never
tripped the breaker and he nicked both a hot leg and ground. I looked
at his saw and there was no sign of arcing that is so indicative of a
metal object hitting a live cable.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone for their input.

"Ajax" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:22:05 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Ajax :

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

then stuff about a subpanel breaker going.

Sounds to me that they have to go over the innards of the main,
and the feed line to the subpanel inch by inch. Wearing
eye protection and gloves, wiggle the cable on every staple and
box clamp. Check for wire exposure on the inside of every box,
gaps in tape covering of splice connectors etc.

It could be a piece of defective cable, or an over tightened
box clamp that only causes a short when the cable moves (thru
temperature changes, wind shake or whatever).

I have encountered defective cable where it's not possible to see the
defect, even after it's blown the breaker multiple times. In
my case, it was a solid short. In this case it sounds like an
externally-induced intermittent.

An intermittent short of this nature won't be detectable with any
kind of metering until its fried the insulation enough to provide
a carbonized conduction path. You don't want to let it go
that far...

Either that, or they have gremlins.

Run the thermal detector over the inside of the main panel
and subpanel too.

Chris, I think that you were very close to what we discovered was the
problem. After replacing the 60 amp double pole breaker with another
new breaker, it continued to trip.

Thinking that one of the Arc-Fault breakers in the subpanel could
somehow be at fault, all breakers were removed from that panel and the
60 amp breaker continued to trip after about ten minutes.

When the conductors were removed from the 60 amp breaker, it didn't
trip. A test of the resistance in the conductors (underground UF
cable) were within normal ranges.

Next step: excavate the UF cable.

Problem: One of the homeowners buddies who had helped him install a
PVC line for a sewage pump had nicked the UF cable with a saw while
cutting the existing PVC line. He just drove the saw into the ground
as he cut the pipe, even though he had been warned that there were
electric lines in that area.

The cut in the insulation was enough to cause some arcing between one
of the hot legs and ground. We suspect that the recent we weather
enhanced the ability of the conductors to arc. Part of the mystery is
that he did this work last Wednesday and it took until the following
Tuesday to start tripping the 60 amp breaker.

A few splice connectors with heat shrink insulation and the circuit
is purring like a kitten.

Lesson: Never trust a plumber with anything sharper than a can of PVC
glue.

In retrospect, what is really strange is that the saw cut never
tripped the breaker and he nicked both a hot leg and ground. I looked
at his saw and there was no sign of arcing that is so indicative of a
metal object hitting a live cable.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone for their input.

Maybe someone was smart enough to turn off the power before working around
electrical lines?
The fact that the lines were installed that close makes my head hurt.
Anyway, thanks for posting the solution. It isn't often we get to see that
in these groups. And we can all use the knowledge!

Ajax wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:22:05 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:


According to Ajax :

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

then stuff about a subpanel breaker going.

Sounds to me that they have to go over the innards of the main,
and the feed line to the subpanel inch by inch. Wearing
eye protection and gloves, wiggle the cable on every staple and
box clamp. Check for wire exposure on the inside of every box,
gaps in tape covering of splice connectors etc.

It could be a piece of defective cable, or an over tightened
box clamp that only causes a short when the cable moves (thru
temperature changes, wind shake or whatever).

I have encountered defective cable where it's not possible to see the
defect, even after it's blown the breaker multiple times. In
my case, it was a solid short. In this case it sounds like an
externally-induced intermittent.

An intermittent short of this nature won't be detectable with any
kind of metering until its fried the insulation enough to provide
a carbonized conduction path. You don't want to let it go
that far...

Either that, or they have gremlins.

Run the thermal detector over the inside of the main panel
and subpanel too.


Chris, I think that you were very close to what we discovered was the
problem. After replacing the 60 amp double pole breaker with another
new breaker, it continued to trip.

Thinking that one of the Arc-Fault breakers in the subpanel could
somehow be at fault, all breakers were removed from that panel and the
60 amp breaker continued to trip after about ten minutes.

When the conductors were removed from the 60 amp breaker, it didn't
trip. A test of the resistance in the conductors (underground UF
cable) were within normal ranges.

Next step: excavate the UF cable.

Problem: One of the homeowners buddies who had helped him install a
PVC line for a sewage pump had nicked the UF cable with a saw while
cutting the existing PVC line. He just drove the saw into the ground
as he cut the pipe, even though he had been warned that there were
electric lines in that area.

The cut in the insulation was enough to cause some arcing between one
of the hot legs and ground. We suspect that the recent we weather
enhanced the ability of the conductors to arc. Part of the mystery is
that he did this work last Wednesday and it took until the following
Tuesday to start tripping the 60 amp breaker.

A few splice connectors with heat shrink insulation and the circuit
is purring like a kitten.

Lesson: Never trust a plumber with anything sharper than a can of PVC
glue.

In retrospect, what is really strange is that the saw cut never
tripped the breaker and he nicked both a hot leg and ground. I looked
at his saw and there was no sign of arcing that is so indicative of a
metal object hitting a live cable.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone for their input.



well the saw blade would have been spinning so fast you wouldnt see the
arching. Anyway, If he hit the 220 I'm surprised he didnt feel it.
Maybe he was high, lol.

Im surprised 220 will jump like that. There is the possibility that the
voltage was so lowered by the cut that the appliances on the other end
pulled more current to satisfy their needs. But that should have
tripped the sub-panel too.

The arching was between a leg and ground, or between a hot leg and the
neutral? This was a 3-wire or 4-wire 220 setup?



Nice to know you found and fixed it. It was an entertaining puzzle.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

On Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:38:09 -0500, "BP" wrote:


"Ajax" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:22:05 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Ajax :

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

then stuff about a subpanel breaker going.

Sounds to me that they have to go over the innards of the main,
and the feed line to the subpanel inch by inch. Wearing
eye protection and gloves, wiggle the cable on every staple and
box clamp. Check for wire exposure on the inside of every box,
gaps in tape covering of splice connectors etc.

It could be a piece of defective cable, or an over tightened
box clamp that only causes a short when the cable moves (thru
temperature changes, wind shake or whatever).

I have encountered defective cable where it's not possible to see the
defect, even after it's blown the breaker multiple times. In
my case, it was a solid short. In this case it sounds like an
externally-induced intermittent.

An intermittent short of this nature won't be detectable with any
kind of metering until its fried the insulation enough to provide
a carbonized conduction path. You don't want to let it go
that far...

Either that, or they have gremlins.

Run the thermal detector over the inside of the main panel
and subpanel too.

Chris, I think that you were very close to what we discovered was the
problem. After replacing the 60 amp double pole breaker with another
new breaker, it continued to trip.

Thinking that one of the Arc-Fault breakers in the subpanel could
somehow be at fault, all breakers were removed from that panel and the
60 amp breaker continued to trip after about ten minutes.

When the conductors were removed from the 60 amp breaker, it didn't
trip. A test of the resistance in the conductors (underground UF
cable) were within normal ranges.

Next step: excavate the UF cable.

Problem: One of the homeowners buddies who had helped him install a
PVC line for a sewage pump had nicked the UF cable with a saw while
cutting the existing PVC line. He just drove the saw into the ground
as he cut the pipe, even though he had been warned that there were
electric lines in that area.

The cut in the insulation was enough to cause some arcing between one
of the hot legs and ground. We suspect that the recent we weather
enhanced the ability of the conductors to arc. Part of the mystery is
that he did this work last Wednesday and it took until the following
Tuesday to start tripping the 60 amp breaker.

A few splice connectors with heat shrink insulation and the circuit
is purring like a kitten.

Lesson: Never trust a plumber with anything sharper than a can of PVC
glue.

In retrospect, what is really strange is that the saw cut never
tripped the breaker and he nicked both a hot leg and ground. I looked
at his saw and there was no sign of arcing that is so indicative of a
metal object hitting a live cable.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone for their input.

Maybe someone was smart enough to turn off the power before working around
electrical lines?
The fact that the lines were installed that close makes my head hurt.
Anyway, thanks for posting the solution. It isn't often we get to see that
in these groups. And we can all use the knowledge!


He never turned the power off - that we know for certain. It was a
point where the sewage pump line intersected the 60 amp circuits
conductors.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 08:39:48 -0500, dnoyeB
wrote:

Ajax wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:22:05 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:


According to Ajax :

When one of our neighbors came back from vacation they found that the
20 amp single pole breaker for their hot tub and the 20 amp single
pole breaker for their refrigerator in their detached garage had
tripped. Neither GFCI type outlet served by these breakers had
tripped.

then stuff about a subpanel breaker going.

Sounds to me that they have to go over the innards of the main,
and the feed line to the subpanel inch by inch. Wearing
eye protection and gloves, wiggle the cable on every staple and
box clamp. Check for wire exposure on the inside of every box,
gaps in tape covering of splice connectors etc.

It could be a piece of defective cable, or an over tightened
box clamp that only causes a short when the cable moves (thru
temperature changes, wind shake or whatever).

I have encountered defective cable where it's not possible to see the
defect, even after it's blown the breaker multiple times. In
my case, it was a solid short. In this case it sounds like an
externally-induced intermittent.

An intermittent short of this nature won't be detectable with any
kind of metering until its fried the insulation enough to provide
a carbonized conduction path. You don't want to let it go
that far...

Either that, or they have gremlins.

Run the thermal detector over the inside of the main panel
and subpanel too.


Chris, I think that you were very close to what we discovered was the
problem. After replacing the 60 amp double pole breaker with another
new breaker, it continued to trip.

Thinking that one of the Arc-Fault breakers in the subpanel could
somehow be at fault, all breakers were removed from that panel and the
60 amp breaker continued to trip after about ten minutes.

When the conductors were removed from the 60 amp breaker, it didn't
trip. A test of the resistance in the conductors (underground UF
cable) were within normal ranges.

Next step: excavate the UF cable.

Problem: One of the homeowners buddies who had helped him install a
PVC line for a sewage pump had nicked the UF cable with a saw while
cutting the existing PVC line. He just drove the saw into the ground
as he cut the pipe, even though he had been warned that there were
electric lines in that area.

The cut in the insulation was enough to cause some arcing between one
of the hot legs and ground. We suspect that the recent we weather
enhanced the ability of the conductors to arc. Part of the mystery is
that he did this work last Wednesday and it took until the following
Tuesday to start tripping the 60 amp breaker.

A few splice connectors with heat shrink insulation and the circuit
is purring like a kitten.

Lesson: Never trust a plumber with anything sharper than a can of PVC
glue.

In retrospect, what is really strange is that the saw cut never
tripped the breaker and he nicked both a hot leg and ground. I looked
at his saw and there was no sign of arcing that is so indicative of a
metal object hitting a live cable.

Anyhow, thanks to everyone for their input.



well the saw blade would have been spinning so fast you wouldnt see the
arching. Anyway, If he hit the 220 I'm surprised he didnt feel it.
Maybe he was high, lol.

He was using a handsaw that the plumbers use to cut PVC. It has a
plastic handle that would have provided some protection. But there
were no arc burns on the blade. Strange.

Im surprised 220 will jump like that. There is the possibility that the
voltage was so lowered by the cut that the appliances on the other end
pulled more current to satisfy their needs. But that should have
tripped the sub-panel too.

The circuit was never under any significant load. At the time it
first tripped the only load were two alarm clocks. The greatest load
that it ever received was from the motors on an adjustable bed.

The arching was between a leg and ground, or between a hot leg and the
neutral? This was a 3-wire or 4-wire 220 setup?

The arcing was between, as best as we could determine, a hot leg and
ground. This was a four wire conductor - two hot, one neutral and one
ground. There is a possibility that neutral was involved too as some
of the insulation was damaged but we didn't see any arc burns on the
neutral conductor.



Nice to know you found and fixed it. It was an entertaining puzzle.

According to Ajax :

Chris, I think that you were very close to what we discovered was the
problem. After replacing the 60 amp double pole breaker with another
new breaker, it continued to trip.

Glad you found it. The issue here was that conditions were such that slight
moisture/movement variation provided intermittent conductivity (or arc)
between the nicked conductors, and at other times, there wasn't enough
carbon path to show up on the instruments.

Lesson: Never trust a plumber with anything sharper than a can of PVC
glue.

Heh. The last time I did a full house rewire (actually a major duplex
rewire, two systems), every time I came over for a wiring stint, the plumber
had managed to do something awful to the wiring I installed the previous
time. Like the time his 3" drill caught a wire, and pulled a _whole_
circuit, boxes and all, out of the wall.

At one point, about 50% of each day was spent fixing what the plumber
wrecked from the last time.

[He really was a damn good plumber. It was a huge and difficult job. He
apologized, I eventually forgave him ;-)]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:17:42 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Ajax :

Chris, I think that you were very close to what we discovered was the
problem. After replacing the 60 amp double pole breaker with another
new breaker, it continued to trip.

Glad you found it. The issue here was that conditions were such that slight
moisture/movement variation provided intermittent conductivity (or arc)
between the nicked conductors, and at other times, there wasn't enough
carbon path to show up on the instruments.

It was intermittent to the degree that it passed a test by an
Ideal(TM) circuit analyzer. If any of the conductors were shorted or
open at the time the Ideal tester would have found it.

This meter also measures ground to hot current and it was showing a
very low reading, something like .12 volts. Anything under 2 volts is
considered to be within the normal range. After the cable was repaired
the ground to hot voltage went to zero.

Aparently there was some leakage between ground and hot all of the
time, but it was not enough to cause the breaker to trip most of the
time.

Lesson: Never trust a plumber with anything sharper than a can of PVC
glue.

Heh. The last time I did a full house rewire (actually a major duplex
rewire, two systems), every time I came over for a wiring stint, the plumber
had managed to do something awful to the wiring I installed the previous
time. Like the time his 3" drill caught a wire, and pulled a _whole_
circuit, boxes and all, out of the wall.

At one point, about 50% of each day was spent fixing what the plumber
wrecked from the last time.

[He really was a damn good plumber. It was a huge and difficult job. He
apologized, I eventually forgave him ;-)]

I have always though that the electrician should be the last trade on
the job. Plumbers can do a lot of damage that often is not obvious
until someone finds a dead circuit or worse.

In article ,
Ajax wrote:

I have always though that the electrician should be the last trade on
the job. Plumbers can do a lot of damage that often is not obvious
until someone finds a dead circuit or worse.

Second that.

However, it's the low-voltage stuff, like phone, that is PARTICULARLY
vulnerable to damage by subsequent persons working around it.

Telephone is the "Rodney Dangerfield" of the utility world. It gets NO
RESPECT AT ALL from the other trades.

Gas: Boom

Electric: Zap

Water: Gush

Sewer: Ick

Phone: So?

Build a shed and cut the underground phone drop? No sweat.

Don't call the phone company and risk being held responsible, if it was your
mistake. You simply splice it back together with wire nuts and thermostat
cable, tape it up and put it back in the ground. It will last several months
until well after you've cashed the customer's check.

Moving a wall and need to extend the telephone cable? No sweat. Solder a
pipe and NUKE the phone cable? No problem.

Don't pay a professional. Just piece it out with a length of thermostat wire
and wire nuts and you're done! The customer won't discover the effect of your
shoddy work until well after you are long gone. (And it's ALL under
sheetrock, baby!)

Yes, Virginia, there IS a special way to make - and repair - phone cable.
There has been for almost a hundred years. Call before you dig!
--

JR