I am a member of the local natural foods co-op in the small town of
Bemidji Minnesota. They have a very small deli and the health
department is requiring them to install a vent hood. The manager
noticed that I am handy and has asked me to install the thing. He has
not bought it yet but is hoping to find a used one. I asked him if he
was planning to go through the roof but he said he wants to go through
the wall. I told him that I had never installed one but he said that
he wants me to do it anyway.


It is a commercial style building probably of 1920's vintage. I am
almost certain the interior walls and ceiling are plaster over lathe.
The exterior walls are brick and the roof is flat. There is a very
small space between the co-op and the neigboring building, just enough
for a ladder I'm guessing. They only use a small kitchen style stove
in this very small deli. I am a fine handyman and I figure I have all
the tools and skills neccesary to complete the job. I am, however,
concerned with some of the details. I want to do a very professional
job for the co-op especially since there are some damn fine women who
work there that I would like to impress.


What criteria should be used to select the hood? That is, how large
should the hood itself be and how large should the fan be? Do you
think it makes sense to go through the wall in this situation? I have
seen other hoods that vent throught a wall but not in such a small
space. What technique should be used to make a neat hole in a such a
wall or ceiling? Plaster and brick can be somewhat unforgiving
materials. How should the hood be attached to the wall or ceiling?
I'm thinking it should be screwed directly to the studs. Would wall
anchors be adequate? These people are super concerned with energy
efficiency. How can I mitigate any heat loss created by punching a
hole in the exterior of the building? What about the electric? I'm
guessing that the hood will need to be on it's own devoted circuit. I
think the panel is in the basement. Shold I just try to fish some
Romex through the wall into the basement? Thanks any advance for any
ideas or advice.


Lawrence

wrote:
I am a member of the local natural foods co-op in the small town of
Bemidji Minnesota. They have a very small deli and the health
department is requiring them to install a vent hood. The manager
noticed that I am handy and has asked me to install the thing. He has
not bought it yet but is hoping to find a used one. I asked him if he
was planning to go through the roof but he said he wants to go through
the wall. I told him that I had never installed one but he said that
he wants me to do it anyway.

It is a commercial style building probably of 1920's vintage. I am
almost certain the interior walls and ceiling are plaster over lathe.
The exterior walls are brick and the roof is flat. There is a very
small space between the co-op and the neigboring building, just enough
for a ladder I'm guessing. They only use a small kitchen style stove
in this very small deli. I am a fine handyman and I figure I have all
the tools and skills neccesary to complete the job. I am, however,
concerned with some of the details. I want to do a very professional
job for the co-op especially since there are some damn fine women who
work there that I would like to impress.

Post a picture. If they're that damn fine, you might get someone on
here to do it for you!

What criteria should be used to select the hood? That is, how large
should the hood itself be and how large should the fan be? Do you
think it makes sense to go through the wall in this situation? I have
seen other hoods that vent throught a wall but not in such a small
space. What technique should be used to make a neat hole in a such a
wall or ceiling? Plaster and brick can be somewhat unforgiving
materials. How should the hood be attached to the wall or ceiling?
I'm thinking it should be screwed directly to the studs. Would wall
anchors be adequate? These people are super concerned with energy
efficiency. How can I mitigate any heat loss created by punching a
hole in the exterior of the building? What about the electric? I'm
guessing that the hood will need to be on it's own devoted circuit. I
think the panel is in the basement. Shold I just try to fish some
Romex through the wall into the basement? Thanks any advance for any
ideas or advice.

It's really not that big of a deal as far as punching the holes. Use a
chisel or screwdriver with a hammer and cut the perimeter of the duct
opening in the plaster. Then use a keyhole saw to cut the lath. Use a
hammer drill or rotary hammer to drill the brick, then cut the
sheathing with a keyhole saw or reciprocating saw.

The real deal with the installation is getting the details right. You
will need to look up your state's mechanical code and read up on the
exhaust hood requirements.
http://www.doli.state.mn.us/bc_minne...ding_code.html
You'll need to get a permit and there will be probably be at least one
inspection to verify the air flow.

Tell the manager that he should check with a used equipment or
restaurant supply house. It's obviously important to know what you
need before he goes out and buys something.

Venting into that side alley may or may not be a problem, depending on
whether there are windows on your building or the neighboring one and
whether your code/inspector will allow it.

Good luck with it.

R

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am a member of the local natural foods co-op in the small town of
Bemidji Minnesota. They have a very small deli and the health
department is requiring them to install a vent hood. The manager
noticed that I am handy and has asked me to install the thing. He has
not bought it yet but is hoping to find a used one. I asked him if he
was planning to go through the roof but he said he wants to go through
the wall. I told him that I had never installed one but he said that
he wants me to do it anyway.


It is a commercial style building probably of 1920's vintage. I am
almost certain the interior walls and ceiling are plaster over lathe.
The exterior walls are brick and the roof is flat. There is a very
small space between the co-op and the neigboring building, just enough
for a ladder I'm guessing. They only use a small kitchen style stove
in this very small deli. I am a fine handyman and I figure I have all
the tools and skills neccesary to complete the job. I am, however,
concerned with some of the details. I want to do a very professional
job for the co-op especially since there are some damn fine women who
work there that I would like to impress.


What criteria should be used to select the hood? That is, how large
should the hood itself be and how large should the fan be? Do you
think it makes sense to go through the wall in this situation? I have
seen other hoods that vent throught a wall but not in such a small
space. What technique should be used to make a neat hole in a such a
wall or ceiling? Plaster and brick can be somewhat unforgiving
materials. How should the hood be attached to the wall or ceiling?
I'm thinking it should be screwed directly to the studs. Would wall
anchors be adequate? These people are super concerned with energy
efficiency. How can I mitigate any heat loss created by punching a
hole in the exterior of the building? What about the electric? I'm
guessing that the hood will need to be on it's own devoted circuit. I
think the panel is in the basement. Shold I just try to fish some
Romex through the wall into the basement? Thanks any advance for any
ideas or advice.


Lawrence

Better start with your health department instead of asking general questions
to the world.
Then call some licensed contractors in your area. This might be bigger
than your talents.

If there is a grill then there could be interlocks needed. Last grill I did
had a sail switch, as long as the hood operated the gas would work. If the
hood was shut down then the grill shut down. Same applies to electric
grills.

Some hoods required by the Health Dept require make up air on the roof,
something like 3 times the exhaust volume.

Commercial work where I live is done with conduit and wire NOT Romex. Your
location will probably be the same when you enter into the health department
rules. You have not even mentioned the tile for the floors and the
stainless steel for the walls.

Thank you for those replies. "RicodJour"
said:
Post a picture. If they're that damn fine, you might get someone on
here to do it for you!

LOL, now that is funny. I appreciate any humor in these forums where
you are just as likely to get flames and insults. I posted to a forum
called sci.engr.heat-vent-ac and got a very disrespecful reply. Now
I'm kind of sorry I said anything about the women of the co-op but I'm
telling you I get a woody every time I go in there. I don't have any
pics but I wish I did.

He also said:
You will need to look up your state's mechanical code and read up on the
exhaust hood requirements.
http://www.doli.state.mn.us/bc_minne...ding_code.html
You'll need to get a permit and there will be probably be at least one
inspection to verify the air flow.

Thanks for the link. I searched that site and am unable to find any
information specific to exhaust hood requirements. If you can find
this specific information, I would be most interested and grateful.

He also said:
You'll need to get a permit and there will be probably be at least one
inspection to verify the air flow

Now I know it's not right but here's the deal. I'm pretty sure this
guy wants to do this job "under the table". Up here in the northwoods
folks do thinks differently than anywhere else I have ever seen. Our
population is thin and money is short. While it is true that the
health department is requiring this hood to be installed, it is not
like you think.

This health department guy has given us a year to install the hood.
The year is almost up. He is a good friend of the co-op and a very
nice guy and probabley just needs to see a hood to cover his ass. He
is unlikely to be concerned with a lot of details like codes and
inspections.

It may not be right, but such things are routinely ignored in our area
for practical reasons. Since there is no budget for inspections and no
enforcement people build whatever they want and sort out any problems
after. Having said that, I would surely want to do a good job that
would stand up to whatever the applicable codes and requirements may
be, within reason.

He also said:
Tell the manager that he should check with a used equipment or
restaurant supply house. It's obviously important to know what you
need before he goes out and buys something. Venting into that side
alley may or may not be a problem, depending on
whether there are windows on your building or the neighboring one and
whether your code/inspector will allow it. Good luck with it

Yea, he is looking into it. There is a company in our rural area which
deals in used equipment. I'm guessing the main things which need to be
known are the size of the hood, size of the fan, and whether it is wall
venting or roof venting. Does that sound right? The wall vent would
not be venting into an alley but into a small space between buildings.
There are no windows on either building in that in that in between
area. Thank you.

"SQLit" also gave a helpful relpy. He said:
Better start with your health department instead of asking general questions
to the world. Then call some licensed contractors in your area. This
might be bigger
than your talents

That is a good idea. See my above rant for my thoughts in this area.
This deli is very,very small. There is only a small (electric) stove
like you would find in a residential kitchen. They only use it a few
hours each day.

It can be hard to hire someone in our very rural area. There are only
a few contractors in our area and they seem to fall into two
undesirable categories. Those who want the work but are drunk all the
time and those who don't need the work and may not even have the time
to answer calls. I would be happy to leave the job to a pro but Greg
the manager seems to have ruled that option out. You are correct to
say that this might be too big a job for me but I have good skills and
all the tools. With that said, I am planning to make a careful
analysis of the job requirements before accepting this challenge.

he also said:

Some hoods required by the Health Dept require make up air on the roof,

something like 3 times the exhaust volume. Commercial work where I live
is done with conduit and wire NOT Romex. Your
location will probably be the same when you enter into the health
department
rules. You have not even mentioned the tile for the floors and the
stainless steel for the walls.

As stated above, this kitchen is very, very small. They only use the
stove a few hours each day. There is no grill. The health department
guy just wants to see a hood. It sound like you are saying that two
holes might be required by some health departments so that an intake
would be provided. That sound reasonable for a true commercial kitchen
but may be more than is neccesary or required in this situation.

Having said that, I still would want to do the job in such a way that
it would fulfill any codes or requirement that may exist, within
reason. The co-op doesn't have much money. I have not mentioned tile
on the floor or steel for the walls because we have not been asked to
do these things by the health department and have not considered them.
Do you think it would be neccessary or desireable to make these
improvements if they are not required? Using conduit is an affordable
option and probably easier to install than Romex but there are unlikely
to be any permits or inspections of these items.

In summary, I'm pretty sure the health guy just wants to see some kind
of hood and is unlikely to be concerned with a lot of details like
codes or inpections. It may be a good idea to ask him for the actual
requirements but more likely that he will be satified with whatever we
install. If we were to ask for the requirements in advance he might be
obliged to actually enforce such requirements which might be a
situation worth avoiding. Thanks.

wrote:
Thank you for those replies. "RicodJour"
said:
Post a picture. If they're that damn fine, you might get someone on
here to do it for you!

LOL, now that is funny. I appreciate any humor in these forums where
you are just as likely to get flames and insults. I posted to a forum
called sci.engr.heat-vent-ac and got a very disrespecful reply. Now
I'm kind of sorry I said anything about the women of the co-op but I'm
telling you I get a woody every time I go in there. I don't have any
pics but I wish I did.

C'mon, man, you're not trying. Walk in with your digital camera and
take some pictures of the location where the vent hood needs to go, and
use a likely lass to show the scale. It's research.

If the guy is that relaxed about the requirement, you should just ask
the guy. I doubt he's going to get tight just because you asked what's
the easiest, cheapest way to do what he needs to see. Might help if
you had one a brace of likely lasses looking all concerned and looking
to him for help. He's the guy that will tell you what's typical in
exhaust tech in your neck of the woods.

Don't rule out eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-Stainless-P...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/stainless-steel-...QQcmdZViewItem
That category is the one you want.

R

RicodJour said:
Walk in with your digital camera and
take some pictures of the location where the vent hood needs to go, and

use a likely lass to show the scale. It's research.

Ha ha, OK. I will take a pic of that kitchen even though it might be
tricky to get one of the babes in the pic. You have to be careful these
days not to come off as a stalker. I don't go to town again until
Thursday so look for my post after that.

he also said:
If the guy is that relaxed about the requirement, you should just ask
the guy. Don't rule out eBay.

Thanks for the reply. As far as I know, the only requirement is that
we have a hood. The rest is probably just up to us. It is Greg's job
to interface with the authorities and he has the skills to do so. I am
just a backwoods guy and my social skills are minimal. I will look to
him for any requirements but I doubt if there are any.

Concerning ebay: Obtaining the unit is also outside my responsiblity.
These folks are in the ultra politically correct category and probably
want to deal locally if possible. They likely also need a liberal
return policy which seems to rule out ebay.

Lawrence

On 30 Jan 2006 13:19:14 -0800, "
wrote:


Some hoods required by the Health Dept require make up air on the roof,

Don't hire hoods. Next thing you know you'll be in the middle of
loan-sharking and protection and all kinds of mob problems

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Lawrence,

Sorry to be negative but I think you should pass up this job. You don't
know how to cut the holes in the wall. You don't know what the requirements
for the hood are. You don't know what permits will be needed. Your belief
that the health dept (and the building inspector, and the building's owner)
will accept anything, no matter how bad does not seem likely. You do not
seem prepared to do it right so you should not do it. Since the co op has a
limited amount of time to do this they should hire experienced labor.

Dave M.

You know I don't mind a negative post as long a you are polite, and
you have been. I don't mind pointing out, however, that I have not
asked for opinions on whether or not to accept the job. What I have
asked for is advice and suggestions on the actual job.

I'm quite sure my post makes me look more inexperienced than I am. Be
assured that I am a professional and well equipped handyman. The
reason I have asked so many basic questions is not because I don't know
how to do the job. It is because I am just today starting to think
about this job and am looking for any ideas and suggestions that others
may have.

I am always learning and one thing I have learned is that there is more
than one way to skin a cat or to perform a task. Another thing I have
learned is that it is can be quite helpful to ask questions in order to
learn new things and quit possiblly to improve upon my techique and the
technique of others. If I have come off as ingorant in the process,
it is a small price to pay in pursuit of the larger goal of doing a
good job.

A lot of contractors and handypeople think they know it all or that the
way they do things is the only way. I think this is wrongheaded. OK,
just because I asked a lot of questions doesn't mean I don't know what
I"m doing. The pupose of this forum is for asking questions and you
have answered none.

While I have not installed a range hood before, I do know how to cut
holes in the wall and have performed the task for other purposes. I
have performed the basic carpentry that will be needed and I know how
to install the neccesary wiring. I have divided the task in to thees
threee basic areas in order to plan the task effectively.

I do not know what permits are needed but this is not my area of
responsiblity. I have not suggested than anyone be willing to accept a
bad job. What I have suggested is that codes and permits may not be
particularly relevant in my situation since there is no budget for
inspections or enforcement in our very rural area, making such thing
less important than what you or most people may be used to.

You say that I am not prepared to do the job right. That is true at
this exact moment but this process of asking questions and
brainstorming the project is the first step towards that preparation
and will be helpful to m in any truly well planned project. You can be
sure that I will not take the job unless I am confident I can and will
do so. If you have any ideas or suggestion, I welcome them.

I have come up with a few ideas of my own since my last post. For
example, there are hoods and there are hoods and I have come to the
conclustion after looking at a lot of range hood websites that a
commercial hood would be uneccesary in my example. The type of stove
being and the amount of btu's being used does not justify it. A high
quality residential hood would be plenty. Since this example is more
like a residential intallation than a commercial one perhaps this will
temper your opinion of my ability to complete the project.

"Commercial style" residential hoolds come in all sizes and the fans
range in speed from 400cfm to 600cfm and come with extensions and
other accessories making them suitable for any height ceiling. It may
be necessary to open up the wall enough to intall blocking to
accomodate the wall mounted hood. These are the type of detail I am
looking for and have researched without your help. So you see, I am
not a total ******. I am just someone who like to examine and
re-examine all the details in my effort to achieve a well done job. I
encourage and ideas or suggestions that are are out there but for sure
can do the job and flesh out the details without it. It is just my
attempt to be thoughtful about it and to ask some basic question that
has made me look like a dumbass. I hope this explantion will help to
dispel that notion.

Lawrence

Lawrence,

My first suggestion is to find out if the co op has the building owners
permission to do this project. If this was a home DIY job I'd advise looking
here
http://www.easy2diy.com/cm/easy/diy_...&parent2=Brand
for a general idea on how to approach it. I admit that I was taken aback by
your initial questions since they were so basic. Don't understand why you
feel it's necessary for the fan motor to be on it's own circuit breaker.
But I have no idea about the requirements for a commercial restaurant.
I'm not sure that this is the right newsgroup to ask about such stuff. I
don't think sizing the hood to meet the stove's BTU output is wise since the
stove may be replaced some day.
Don't presume that the small town does not have inspectors, assume that
the county does. The co op is putting in this hood because the inspector
warned them. Do the work up to code.

Dave M.

David Martel said: My first suggestion is to find out if the co op
has the building owners
permission to do this project. If this was a home DIY job I'd advise
looking
here
http://www.easy2diy.com/cm/easy/diy_...d=35720146&par...

for a general idea on how to approach it.

The co-op owns the building and has been in the same location for
almost 30 years. Thanks for the helpful link.

he also said:
Don't understand why you
feel it's necessary for the fan motor to be on it's own circuit breaker

I just try to be conservative when running new circuits since I am not
a real electrician. One thing is that the existing circuits likely
have refrigeration and freezers on them. I would not want to place
an additional load on such critical circuits. I haven't looked at the
breaker box yet but if there are no free breaker locations available
then I am capable of performing an inventory of the existing circuits
and their cooresponding breakers in order to determine what is
appropriate.

he also said:
But I have no idea about the requirements for a commercial restaurant. I
don't think sizing the hood to meet the stove's BTU output is wise
since the
stove may be replaced some day.

This is not a commercial restaurant but a very small kitchen with one
residential style stove which they only use a few hours each day. I
have considered the fact that the stove might eventually be upgraded
and plan to suggest that this might be an opportunity to upgrade to a
bigger stove, possibly a gas range. But I doubt if they want to spend
any extra money because the co-op doesnt have much extra money and also
they plan to be in a larger building someday and therfore may want to
limit the dough they spend on this one.

he also said:
Don't presume that the small town does not have inspectors, assume that
the county does. The co op is putting in this hood because the
inspector
warned them. Do the work up to code

I don't presume anything, actually. I'm just saying that such things
are routinely ignored where I live. Inspections and enforcment
receive little funding. I don't defend it. I am not a liscensed
contractor and don't claim to be one. The co-op will be acting as
contractor in this case and I work for an hourly rate or even for
barter. It is their job to be concerned with codes and inspections and
I do not have that responsibility.

I know that is is the standard advice to be concerned with all
relevant codes and and regulations and that it would be irresponsible
to give any other advice so that is the advice I expect. My place is
to plan the job as best as possiible and to get it done. It is their
responsibility as contractor to supervise me in any way they wish and
to change the plan according to what they think is appropriate.

By the way, we were not warned by the building inspector but by the
health department, which is totally different.

Thank you for your ideas and for giving me consideration.

Lawrence

wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks any advance for any
ideas or advice.


A couple months ago I installed a residential range hood that vents throught
the wall. Not a huge deal. I cut away a large area of lath and plaster to
install studs in the necessary locations to hang the hood. Cut a 6" dia hole
through the ext wall (in your case, you'll drill holes in the brick and
chisel out the hole). Run a 15A dedicated circuit into a box behind the
hood. Patch the area w/ drywall, run your ductwork (I had a little trouble
sourcing a 6" dia exterior vent with a self closing closing flapper), hang
the hood. Obviously, you want the unit in hand before you start cutting
anything.

Thank you for that helpful reply.

Ranieri said: A couple months ago I installed a residential range
hood that vents throught
the wall. Not a huge deal. I cut away a large area of lath and
plaster to
install studs in the necessary locations to hang the hood.

Some of the worries I have include the condition of the wall. I just
took a quick look see today and it looks like there is some rough sawn
wood paneling over part of the plaster. This makes me think that it
was placed there to hold the old crumbling plaster in place and to
prevent it from further crumbling. I have to take a closer look at
the wall to be sure of what it's like but if this is the case then it
will complicate matters. My concern is that the plaster dust may
contain lead or other contaminants that should be prevented from
getting on any surfaces or foodstuffs as much as possible.

The stove will be moved to a wall where there are now a lot of shelves
and foodstuffs. My current thinking is that it will be necessary to
remove any paneling and everthing else from the work area. This is
problematic because it may involve unecessarily expose this crappy
plaster but I think it might be a better idea than trying to cut
through the wood paneling.

Then I could enclose the work area with floor to ceiling polyethylene
plastic. I might use an old but sharp wood chisel or masonry chisel
in order to attempt to carefully score the perimeter of the hole and
then to do a neat job removing the plaster necessary to do the
blocking. I could use a helper with a HEPA shop vac to vacuum the dust
at the source during the actual demolition, actually have them hold the
vac right next to the chisel while I am working.

This is a food co-op and an organic kitchen and this plaster dust must
be prevented from getting on any food. This maybe part of the reason
they want to hire me ( a co-op member who obviously gets it) rather
than some contractor who may not feel they can afford the
inconvenience. If you have any ideas on how to carefullly enclose,
remove, and mitigate this plaster dust please let me know.

he also said:
Cut a 6" dia hole
through the ext wall (in your case, you'll drill holes in the brick and

chisel out the hole). Run a 15A dedicated circuit into a box behind the

hood. Patch the area w/ drywall, run your ductwork (I had a little
trouble
sourcing a 6" dia exterior vent with a self closing closing flapper),
hang
the hood. Obviously, you want the unit in hand before you start cutting

anything.

Thanks again for a nice post. After the demolition and carpentry are
complete I'm thinking I could just cover the entire wall with drywall
and paint. It would be better to cover the area behind the stove with
stainless and perhaps the entire wall and someone said that it may be
code but drywall could be installed in any case.

I will admit that I have never cut hole in a brick wall but it seems
straightforward enough. Just drill holes at close intervals around the
inside perimeter of the hole then use a masonry chisel to carfully
remove chisel the small part that can't be driled and to remove the
bricks in the middle.

Please let me know if you have any replies to my ideas or if you have
any other ideas or suggestions.

Lawrence