"James Sweet" wrote in message news:rzYyf.15937$h47.10775@trnddc08
mm wrote:
On 16 Jan 2006 08:17:07 -0800, " wrote:
....

I've opened hard drives again and again in very filthy rooms and
they've never shown any ill effects over the days, or in some cases
weeks, that I operated them. I do this all the time with old drives
because I can see what's happening inside the drive while I test my
control circuitry.

If I was manufacturing hundreds of thousands of drives and had to worry
about warranties and customer satisfaction, I'd be doing it in a clean
room. And I would buy a new drive before attempting to repair a damaged
one. But you definitely can operate a hard drive without the cover for
a while; probably long enough to do whatever you want if you don't dawdle.


My drive is clicking, and one important partition has a very bad
directory structure. I'm not sure I can copy over even the good
partitions before it "fails". If I open it, what would I want to do
to stop the clicking, or to keep the clicking syndrome from preventing
me from copying the data to a good drive.


There's nothing you can do by opening it.

If it's clicking that means it's unable to read the disc

due to a hardware failure.

Nonsense.
If it's clicking it means it does a rezero every time it retries a read operation.
It does that on ECC errors and also on CRC errors on the interface.
Neither is necessarily caused by a hardware failure.
Bad power supply, overheated drive or bad data cable can cause this too.

I've had some luck placing the whole drive in the freezer for a couple hours
and then copying the important stuff off immediately but if that doesn't
work either pay the $ for professional recovery or throw away the drive
because I can guarantee you won't fix it by opening it.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
According to Folkert Rienstra :

Please, do not use Reply-To addresses in attribution lines. Get a decent newsclient, or change your attribution line, like everyone
else.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
According to mm :
My drive is clicking, and one important partition has a very bad
directory structure. I'm not sure I can copy over even the good
partitions before it "fails". If I open it, what would I want to do
to stop the clicking, or to keep the clicking syndrome from preventing
me from copying the data to a good drive.

The best way to ensure that you can copy over the good partitions
is to _not_ open the drive first.

The safest way is to image copy the whole drive to a new drive. Put
the old drive in a safe place, and try to repair the new drive's
directory structure. Preferably doing a backup of the image you copied
to the new drive before you diddle it, so you can start over _without_
touching the old drive.

The clicking is most likely retries

(ie: gouged media, weak magnetics).

Just any unrecoverable read error (which isn't necessarily a physical one,
it can just be a bad write, ie a logical error).

You _can't_ fix that.

Yes you _can_, for the logical bad blocks.

Not by opening the drive... About the only thing that someone that
doesn't have major equipment can accomplish by opening it up is to
replace the drive electronics. Some of our support people are quite
good at resurrecting drives by swapping the electronics (they keep
electronics sets from head-crashed drives).

But the OPs problem is not the electronics.

Who says.


Perhaps most of these types of failures (drive clicking - retries)
can be "fixed" by causing the drive to write on the bad blocks, and
then doing a fixdisk or equivalent. I'm familiar with somewhat
older gear under UNIX, where you take the sector number from the error
messages and use "dd" or write a small program to write a single
block over the bad sector. Then run the file system repair utilities
(ie: fsck) to clear/reclaim it.

These days with smarter controllers, they sometimes automatically
self-repair (spare out the bad sector),

Only if the sector is readable with retries.
Unrecoverable read error bad sectors are only reallocated on writes.

or a simple low-level reformat of the drive will fix or spare it out.
You might find a suitable procedure on the manufacturer's web site.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message et
In article ews.net, "Folkert Rienstra" obscured wrote:

And another idiot with a broken newsclient showing Reply-To addresses.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
In article , "Handi" wrote:
I'd dare to guess that if this fellow doesn't recognize a Torx screw
that he isn't aware that he should never open a hard drive.

I guess you can't recognize one either. :-)

The same to you.

Try again.

What he has is not a Torx screw.

Yes it is, as someone else showed from the Wiha page.

No, it's not. This is a five-pointed star. Torx screws have six points.

And the 5 pointed star is a Torx too.
There is no such thing as *the* "torx" screw.

"chrisv" wrote in message
Rita Ä Berkowitz wrote:

To avoid this problem in the future

Ignore the SCSI troll.

It was, until you gave it attention.

In article L44zf.13116$Zo.11468@trnddc07,
com says...

"John McGaw" wrote


If you want to buy Torx Plus tools you must, in theory anyway, be a
legitimate user as defined by Textron although if you know anyone who
works with them they should be pretty easily obtained at the cost of a
case of beer. ;-)


http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com...p.aspx?id=7957

Doesn't appear to include 5-pointed Torx, only 6-pointed.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Books for Bicycle Mechanics and Tinkerers:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bikebooks.html

According to Mark Lloyd :
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 04:54:34 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to mm :
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:12:48 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

I still think they should make the manufacture and sale of slotted and
phillips screws a capital offence.

That would be like making digitial tv the standard, and non-digital
tv's dificult to use.

You did know that the US Congress was mandating digital-only TV
(I think) April 2009 didn't you?

That date keeps slipping, and can be expected to slip some more. It
was in 2006 once.

It looked like the April 2009 date was becoming much more solid
than previous efforts (as much as your government can ever be),
being brought up a few months from one of the two main proposals,
and scheduled specifically to avoid a basketball game.

The remaining sticking point is some sort of fund that US Congress
wants to form to subsidize digital-analog converters for those who
won't/can't upgrade their tvs by then. Most people don't think
the subsidy is high enough - the equipment doesn't exist yet.

Think of all the screwdrivers that would have to go on welfare.

Screwdriver smugglers.

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

You'll not be getting your illegal screwdrivers from Canada this time,
unlike the organized toilet smuggling racket.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Keith Williams :

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

If I need one, it's across the borDER to Canuckistan. Hmm, I guess
I'll need a passport...

The only reason why we have phillips screwdrivers is because _you_
guys use 'em. If it wasn't for that southern influence, it'd
all be Robertson or better. So, if you banned 'em, we'd probably
all gladly toss our phillips drivers out.

Americans don't need a passport to come to Canada. The problem
is getting _back_ into the US.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

If I need one, it's across the borDER to Canuckistan. Hmm, I guess
I'll need a passport...

The only reason why we have phillips screwdrivers is because _you_
guys use 'em. If it wasn't for that southern influence, it'd
all be Robertson or better.

AIUI the Robertson patent licenses were deemed too expensive. I've
used Roberson head screws whenever possible for about thirty years.
Unfortunately, they're not ubiquitous. Note, Robertsons aren't
perfect (clutch and Torx are better, though more expensive).

So, if you banned 'em, we'd probably all gladly toss our phillips
drivers out.

BTW, I was referring to the 1.6Gal flush and "outlaw" toilets, not
the screwdrivers.

Americans don't need a passport to come to Canada. The problem
is getting _back_ into the US.

Aw, you don't want us to go home? Well, that is sorta the problem.
;-)

--
Keith

According to Folkert Rienstra :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
According to Folkert Rienstra :

Please, do not use Reply-To addresses in attribution lines. Get a decent newsclient, or change
your attribution line, like everyone else.

I assure you, trn 4 is a decent news reader, and substituting in the Reply-To for
From: is actually the right thing to do if the attribution line is to have anything
in it resembling the followup'd to user's address.

Spammers aren't stupid enough to ignore Reply-To headers - in fact, smart
ones would be scraping them in _preference_ to From: headers.

And those that scrape the whole message (which is why you're worried about
my attribution, right?) will scrape the reply-to _too_. So, you're shooting
yourself in the foot far more than the occasional followup from someone
using reasonable newsreader attribution defaults like me.

If you want to avoid Usenet scrapers, you need to not mention your real
email address AT ALL, or munge it.

Eg: "folkertdashrienstra (at) wanadoo.nl", or ".

Reply-To is not a useful approach for evading Usenet email address scrapers.
If you don't want to get it scraped, _don't_ imagine that Reply-To will hide it.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Rob B :
"chrisv" wrote in message

You haven't tried big/strong ones, then. I have some that are 1"
diameter and 1/4" thick, and I guarantee you that they'll give you a
pinch you will not soon forget! They are also extremely difficult to
seperate, once locked-together.

well the ones i tried were small button type maybe 1/3" diameter and 1/8"
thick they certainly were strong they hold more to the fridge than those
crap magnets and prettier too

The Lee Valley catalog has a variety of rare earth magnets from 1/4" to
1" in diameter. The 3/8 & 1/2" ones are great for fridge magnets.

The 1" ones are used for cargo strap tie-downs, which should give you
an idea of how strong they are. Need special techniques for prying
two of them apart. If they're allowed to come together unrestrained,
they _will_ chip and throw chunks. I wouldn't want to get a small
fold of skin between two of those!

[I have 5 of them, I just haven't gotten around to making the separation
jig yet.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage mc wrote:

"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...

Torx is optimised for maximum torque without damaging the
tool or screw and easier insertion than the standard 6-way
symmetric format. IMO ist qualifies as possibly the best
all around screw head format.

Yes... you can actually hold the screw with the screwdriver... that is, put
the screw on the end of the screwdriver, then move it into position.

Exactly.

Arno

According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

If I need one, it's across the borDER to Canuckistan. Hmm, I guess
I'll need a passport...

The only reason why we have phillips screwdrivers is because _you_
guys use 'em. If it wasn't for that southern influence, it'd
all be Robertson or better.

AIUI the Robertson patent licenses were deemed too expensive. I've
used Roberson head screws whenever possible for about thirty years.
Unfortunately, they're not ubiquitous. Note, Robertsons aren't
perfect (clutch and Torx are better, though more expensive).

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

Strictly speaking, McFeeley's (for example) sells square drive in the US,
not Robertson.

So, if you banned 'em, we'd probably all gladly toss our phillips
drivers out.

BTW, I was referring to the 1.6Gal flush and "outlaw" toilets, not
the screwdrivers.

Either way ;-)

Americans don't need a passport to come to Canada. The problem
is getting _back_ into the US.

Aw, you don't want us to go home? Well, that is sorta the problem.
;-)

Actually, it's US immigration that gets sticky about southward travel
without a passport - even of their _own_ citizens. We're happy to be
rid of you.

just joking
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Chris Lewis wrote:
According to mm :
On 16 Jan 2006 18:15:57 GMT, Arno Wagner wrote:

Definitely correct. For anti-tamper there is Torx with a pin
in the middle that needs a Torx driver with a hole. Standard
Torx is just very well suited for automated mounting and also

I hadn't thought about that, but I had noticed that it stays on the
tip without magnetism, even when the tip is horizontal.

Square drive (eg: Canadian "Robertson") are almost as good. I drove several
hundred 3" deck screws through flooring yesterday - once put on the driver,
they stayed put on the driver and could be started and driven without touching
the screw.

No cam-out either.

I still think they should make the manufacture and sale of slotted and
phillips screws a capital offence.

Careful! Outlawing stupidity, while highly desirable, would lead to
chaos.

Arno

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Isaac Wingfield wrote:
In article ,
Arno Wagner wrote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage wrench wrote:
Torx screws are seldom used for no other purpose then to keep the
prying eyes of consumers from sensitive stuff. Thats why they're
used in elevators.

Not an accurate statement. Torx drive screws have been used on
vehicles for ten years plus. They are not (in their standard form)
an anti tamper fastener.

Definitely correct. For anti-tamper there is Torx with a pin
in the middle that needs a Torx driver with a hole.

Or a little work with a strong, small flat blade, to bend it back and
forth until it breaks off.

Should work as well, agreed. Unless you want to make warranty
claims afterwasrds ;-)

Arno

In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

If I need one, it's across the borDER to Canuckistan. Hmm, I guess
I'll need a passport...

The only reason why we have phillips screwdrivers is because _you_
guys use 'em. If it wasn't for that southern influence, it'd
all be Robertson or better.

AIUI the Robertson patent licenses were deemed too expensive. I've
used Roberson head screws whenever possible for about thirty years.
Unfortunately, they're not ubiquitous. Note, Robertsons aren't
perfect (clutch and Torx are better, though more expensive).

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.

Strictly speaking, McFeeley's (for example) sells square drive in the US,
not Robertson.

They may sell them, but aren't they still the "Robertson head"?

So, if you banned 'em, we'd probably all gladly toss our phillips
drivers out.

BTW, I was referring to the 1.6Gal flush and "outlaw" toilets, not
the screwdrivers.

Either way ;-)

The "outlaw toilets" are outlawed in the US. Actually their sale
is outlawed, hence the trip north (less than 50mi.) if I need to
replace one.


"When toilets are outlawed, only outlaws will have toilets."

Americans don't need a passport to come to Canada. The problem
is getting _back_ into the US.

Aw, you don't want us to go home? Well, that is sorta the problem.
;-)

Actually, it's US immigration that gets sticky about southward travel
without a passport - even of their _own_ citizens.

Understand.

We're happy to be rid of you.

Whew! That's what I thought.

just joking

;-)

--
Keith

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
According to Folkert Rienstra :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
According to Folkert Rienstra :

Please, do not use Reply-To addresses in attribution lines.
Get a decent newsclient, or change your attribution line, like everyone else does.


I assure you, trn 4 is a decent news reader,

Obviously not if it is straying from standard practice.

and substituting in the Reply-To for From: is actually the right thing to do

No, it is not.

if the attribution line is to have anything in it resembling the to user's address.

Nonsense. Obviously Reply-To is for replying-to/following-up.
Contributor attribution has nothing got to do with follow-up.

Any decent news/email client automatically uses the Reply-To from the header
if you choose email reply (reply to sender) and reverts to From: if it is empty.
No point whatsoever to use it in attribution lines.
Any news/email client that relies on attribution lines for replies is obviously broken.


Spammers aren't stupid enough to ignore Reply-To headers - in fact, smart
ones would be scraping them in _preference_ to From: headers.

Practice says different.


And those that scrape the whole message (which is why you're worried about
my attribution,

right?)

Wrong. I don't want my Reply address used in bodies.

will scrape the reply-to _too_.

So, you're shooting yourself in the foot

Nope, it is you who is shooting me in the foot.

far more than the occasional followup from someone
using reasonable newsreader attribution defaults like me.

If it was reasonable every other newsreader would use it. Guess what.


If you want to avoid Usenet scrapers, you need to not mention your real
email address AT ALL, or munge it.

Or use that what was intended to use and isn't normally used in usenet bodies
(not the header).


Eg: "xxxxxxxx (at) yyyyyyy.zz", or .

I told you not to use my Reply addres in usenet messages and here you
go again. It's bloody obvious how to undo the spamtraps from that.


Reply-To is not a useful approach for evading Usenet email address scrapers.
If you don't want to get it scraped, _don't_ imagine that Reply-To will hide it.

I don't imagine, you are. I just see what happens in practice.

In article , (Joshua Putnam) writes:
| In article L44zf.13116$Zo.11468@trnddc07,
| com says...
|
| "John McGaw" wrote
|
|
| If you want to buy Torx Plus tools you must, in theory anyway, be a
| legitimate user as defined by Textron although if you know anyone who
| works with them they should be pretty easily obtained at the cost of a
| case of beer. ;-)
|
|
| http://www.stanleysupplyservices.com...p.aspx?id=7957
|
| Doesn't appear to include 5-pointed Torx, only 6-pointed.

How about this:

http://sjdiscounttools.com/sk84231.html

(The SK84231 set is available from many sites, but this one had a short URL.)

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:41:06 -0500, Keith Williams
wrote:

In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

If I need one, it's across the borDER to Canuckistan. Hmm, I guess
I'll need a passport...

The only reason why we have phillips screwdrivers is because _you_
guys use 'em. If it wasn't for that southern influence, it'd
all be Robertson or better.

AIUI the Robertson patent licenses were deemed too expensive. I've
used Roberson head screws whenever possible for about thirty years.
Unfortunately, they're not ubiquitous. Note, Robertsons aren't
perfect (clutch and Torx are better, though more expensive).

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.


I have a screwdriver that comes with a lot of bits. It has standard,
Phillips, Torx (no 5-pointed though) and square. Then there's some
even stranger ones. There's one that looks like Phillips except the 4
points aren't quite aligned, and one with 3 points. Plus the security
bits with the recess in the middle. And I almost forgot, some shaped
like a bowtie.

Strictly speaking, McFeeley's (for example) sells square drive in the US,
not Robertson.

They may sell them, but aren't they still the "Robertson head"?


[snip]
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On 17 Jan 2006 18:52:04 GMT, Arno Wagner wrote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Chris Lewis wrote:
According to mm :
On 16 Jan 2006 18:15:57 GMT, Arno Wagner wrote:

Definitely correct. For anti-tamper there is Torx with a pin
in the middle that needs a Torx driver with a hole. Standard
Torx is just very well suited for automated mounting and also

I hadn't thought about that, but I had noticed that it stays on the
tip without magnetism, even when the tip is horizontal.

Square drive (eg: Canadian "Robertson") are almost as good. I drove several
hundred 3" deck screws through flooring yesterday - once put on the driver,
they stayed put on the driver and could be started and driven without touching
the screw.

No cam-out either.

I still think they should make the manufacture and sale of slotted and
phillips screws a capital offence.

Careful! Outlawing stupidity, while highly desirable, would lead to
chaos.


It would. Also, it would require building a lot more prisons.

Arno
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

In article ews.net, "Folkert Rienstra" wrote:

And the 5 pointed star is a Torx too.

Not correct.

There is no such thing as *the* "torx" screw.

Also not correct. But you seem impervious to logic, so I'm done.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I'd have to side with Odie here. About 15 'years' ago I pulled apart an (now)
old 85meg RLL hard drive because the auto park wouldn't release. This was on
the kitchen table & that drive is still working today .... you'd think it would
have just plain worn out by now.

I noticed it had filters inside it to clean the air moving inside it so I expect
it was all clean again within seconds if not minutes of firing up again.

The 'new' drives I've pulled apart for the magnets seem to have the air filters
as well although I'd expect today's technology to be less tolerant to dirty air
what with the amount of data that they pack into the smaller space but I still
wouldn't expect it to die in "a few days or weeks".


On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:48:28 -0000, "David C. Partridge"
wrote:

Cough! I said class 1 not class 100!

Sure a drive will function for a while with the case off, but it will die
soonish (maybe a few days or weeks, but it will die).

If OTOH all you are doing is extracting the magnets from old drives - then
go right on ..

Dave
"Odie Ferrous" wrote in message
...
"David C. Partridge" wrote:

Hmmmm why do you want to open the case of the drive? If you open it
outside a class 1 clean room, the drive WILL die.

Or are you talking about the drive mounting screws?

Perhaps the drive already *is* dead.

Don't overestimate clean rooms - they contain 100 particles per cubic
meter as opposed to an "average" room containing 600 particles. A
"clean" "average" room will contain far less than the 600 particles.

For what it's worth, I've had a drive running non-stop for over a week
without its cover (platters exposed) and haven't had any hiccups. This
hype about "clean rooms" is a load of drivel.

There are those who will say "if you get one single particle of dust on
your platters, your drive will be irretrievably damaged."

Bollox. And bollox to FR, who will no doubt disagree.


Odie
--
Retrodata
www.retrodata.co.uk
Globally Local Data Recovery Experts

--

Australia isn't "down under", it's "off to one side"!


www.cobracat.com (home of the Australian Cobra Catamaran)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cobra-cat/

chrisv wrote:
Rob B wrote:


Hard drives have very powerful neodymium magnets in the servo actuator
for the read/write head assembly. You have to be careful not to pinch
your fingers between them but they're cool to play with.

has anyone ever pinched the fingers ? i bought some of these neodynium
"warning extra strong" magnets from hardware store and skeptical i tried to
pinch my fingers and have had no luck, well if that is the label to give
such actions



Yes I've gotten nasty blood blisters on several occasions. Take apart
any 3.5" hard drive and pull the magnets out, they'll stick to each
other very strongly. If you can find an old 5.25" SCSI drive you'll
likely find even bigger magnets.

Arno Wagner wrote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Isaac Wingfield
wrote:
In article ,
Arno Wagner wrote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage wrench wrote:
Torx screws are seldom used for no other purpose then to keep the
prying eyes of consumers from sensitive stuff. Thats why they're
used in elevators.

Not an accurate statement. Torx drive screws have been used on
vehicles for ten years plus. They are not (in their standard form)
an anti tamper fastener.

Definitely correct. For anti-tamper there is Torx with a pin
in the middle that needs a Torx driver with a hole.

Or a little work with a strong, small flat blade, to bend it back and
forth until it breaks off.

Should work as well, agreed. Unless you want to make warranty
claims afterwasrds ;-)

Hey, not his fault that the blasted screw was defective.

Arno

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Stan Blazejewski wrote:

I'd have to side with Odie here. About 15 'years' ago I pulled apart an
(now)
old 85meg RLL hard drive because the auto park wouldn't release. This was
on the kitchen table & that drive is still working today .... you'd think
it would have just plain worn out by now.

I noticed it had filters inside it to clean the air moving inside it so I
expect it was all clean again within seconds if not minutes of firing up
again.

Examine that filter carefully and you will find that its primary function is
to filter the tiny amount of air moving through the pressure-equalization
hole and that there is no mechanism by which all or any significant portion
of the air circulating inside the capsule can be made to pass through it.

The 'new' drives I've pulled apart for the magnets seem to have the air
filters as well although I'd expect today's technology to be less tolerant
to dirty air what with the amount of data that they pack into the smaller
space but I still wouldn't expect it to die in "a few days or weeks".

It dies as soon as something hard enough to scratch the platter or head and
small enough to get wedged between them finds its way into that space.

In the real world people have tried this, and the drives typically died in
anywhere from a few hours to a few weeks.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:48:28 -0000, "David C. Partridge"
wrote:

Cough! I said class 1 not class 100!

Sure a drive will function for a while with the case off, but it will die
soonish (maybe a few days or weeks, but it will die).

If OTOH all you are doing is extracting the magnets from old drives - then
go right on ..

Dave
"Odie Ferrous" wrote in message
...
"David C. Partridge" wrote:

Hmmmm why do you want to open the case of the drive? If you open it
outside a class 1 clean room, the drive WILL die.

Or are you talking about the drive mounting screws?

Perhaps the drive already *is* dead.

Don't overestimate clean rooms - they contain 100 particles per cubic
meter as opposed to an "average" room containing 600 particles. A
"clean" "average" room will contain far less than the 600 particles.

For what it's worth, I've had a drive running non-stop for over a week
without its cover (platters exposed) and haven't had any hiccups. This
hype about "clean rooms" is a load of drivel.

There are those who will say "if you get one single particle of dust on
your platters, your drive will be irretrievably damaged."

Bollox. And bollox to FR, who will no doubt disagree.


Odie
--
Retrodata
www.retrodata.co.uk
Globally Local Data Recovery Experts

--

Australia isn't "down under", it's "off to one side"!


www.cobracat.com (home of the Australian Cobra Catamaran)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cobra-cat/

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

According to Mark Lloyd :
On 17 Jan 2006 18:52:04 GMT, Arno Wagner wrote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Chris Lewis wrote:
I still think they should make the manufacture and sale of slotted and
phillips screws a capital offence.

Careful! Outlawing stupidity, while highly desirable, would lead to
chaos.

It would. Also, it would require building a lot more prisons.

I did say capital offence, didn't I? ;-)
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

As far as I know, the patents are still in effect - reengineering or something
silly like that.

Robertson's primary patent claims are a very precise taper on the tip,
so as to be better at gripping and releasing the screw. Square drive
normally has no taper.

Years ago the taper probably mattered more, because of manufacturing
tolerance meaning that a taper was _necessary_ to get a good interference
fit. These days manufacturing is more accurate, so a no-taper tip will
grip too. Particularly in screws made to Robertson specs.

I recently bought some fairly high-grade square drive bits (these were
part of a very large surplus shipment sent up from the states and resold
here). They grip "real" domestic robertson screws real well. In fact, too
well at times, and you have to give a bit of a yank to get them to disengage.

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.

A recent bit set I bought had three distinct "cross heads" with slightly
different geometries (and 3 sizes of each). One geometry was classic
phillips. One, I believe, Pozidrive. Don't know what the other was
called. Any, of a given size, would work more-or-less on a screw.
But if you wanted a good tight grip to minimize cam-out (especially
when you were going to drive a lot), you have to experiment with all three
types (at one or two sizes each) to see which one did best.

At least with square/Robertson they're interchangeable at a given size,
and if you pick the wrong size, it's real obvious (won't fit, or will
be _very_ sloppy).

Strictly speaking, McFeeley's (for example) sells square drive in the US,
not Robertson.

They may sell them, but aren't they still the "Robertson head"?

No. "Square drive" - interoperable with Robertson, but still not
Robertson. The name is trademarked too.

BTW, I was referring to the 1.6Gal flush and "outlaw" toilets, not
the screwdrivers.

Either way ;-)

The "outlaw toilets" are outlawed in the US.

I'm aware of that.

Actually their sale
is outlawed, hence the trip north (less than 50mi.) if I need to
replace one.

If you need one, you'd probably have to hurry. Most toilets
sold here these days are low flow too.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:Lhjzf.28658$MG1.26001@trnddc05...
chrisv wrote:
Rob B wrote:


Hard drives have very powerful neodymium magnets in the servo actuator
for the read/write head assembly. You have to be careful not to pinch
your fingers between them but they're cool to play with.

has anyone ever pinched the fingers ? i bought some of these neodynium
"warning extra strong" magnets from hardware store and skeptical i tried
to
pinch my fingers and have had no luck, well if that is the label to give
such actions



Yes I've gotten nasty blood blisters on several occasions. Take apart
any 3.5" hard drive and pull the magnets out, they'll stick to each
other very strongly. If you can find an old 5.25" SCSI drive you'll
likely find even bigger magnets.


ok curiosity has the better of me , i have several pandora drives stuffed in
a box, couple of old 420 mb scsi out of old sun classics some old 180 -
1.2GB drives lying around, i will be going on the magnet hunt shortly. too
bad i just recently dumped an old 1 GB 5 1/2 full height scsi out of old
HP/UX box it made a great desk anchor

Folkert Rienstra wrote:
"James Sweet" wrote in message news:rzYyf.15937$h47.10775@trnddc08

mm wrote:

On 16 Jan 2006 08:17:07 -0800, " wrote:
....


I've opened hard drives again and again in very filthy rooms and
they've never shown any ill effects over the days, or in some cases
weeks, that I operated them. I do this all the time with old drives
because I can see what's happening inside the drive while I test my
control circuitry.

If I was manufacturing hundreds of thousands of drives and had to worry
about warranties and customer satisfaction, I'd be doing it in a clean
room. And I would buy a new drive before attempting to repair a damaged
one. But you definitely can operate a hard drive without the cover for
a while; probably long enough to do whatever you want if you don't dawdle.


My drive is clicking, and one important partition has a very bad
directory structure. I'm not sure I can copy over even the good
partitions before it "fails". If I open it, what would I want to do
to stop the clicking, or to keep the clicking syndrome from preventing
me from copying the data to a good drive.


There's nothing you can do by opening it.


If it's clicking that means it's unable to read the disc


due to a hardware failure.


Nonsense.
If it's clicking it means it does a rezero every time it retries a read operation.
It does that on ECC errors and also on CRC errors on the interface.
Neither is necessarily caused by a hardware failure.
Bad power supply, overheated drive or bad data cable can cause this too.



Every single time I've ever had a hard drive clicking it was caused by a
failure of the drive, I've never even heard of it caused by those other
issues, with the exception being a couple of early very hot running 10K
rpm drives. Bad drive is 99% the reason.

According to Folkert Rienstra oh all right, this time :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
According to Folkert Rienstra :
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
According to Folkert Rienstra :

Please, do not use Reply-To addresses in attribution lines.
Get a decent newsclient, or change your attribution line, like everyone else does.

I assure you, trn 4 is a decent news reader,

Obviously not if it is straying from standard practice.

What standard? trn set _the_ standard for more years than your newsreader
has existed or you have been posting to Usenet.

There is no standard on attribution lines. Indeed, the only comments
on this topic I've been able to google say _exactly_ what trn is doing -
reply-to if present, From otherwise.

and substituting in the Reply-To for From: is actually the right thing to do

No, it is not.

Funny, in the 20+ years I've been posting on Usenet (largely to groups specific
to Usenet, Email and anti-spam standards, operations and practise), and the 10s
of thousands of postings I've made to Usenet, you're the first to suggest it's wrong.

Spammers aren't stupid enough to ignore Reply-To headers - in fact, smart
ones would be scraping them in _preference_ to From: headers.

Practice says different.

I don't think someone who uses Outlook as a newsreader should be lecturing
anyone on newsreader "practise", let alone lecturing _me_ on spammer practises...

Perhaps Outlook's braindamage leads you to believe that spammers can't see
reply-tos.

I assure you, spammers don't do this by hand. They use specialized
NNTP clients, and scan _everything_ in the message - headers, bodies,
everything. Valid Reply-tos are vastly more blaringly obvious than
arbitrary hand munging.

Any spammer with enough neurons to be able to
write a generalized demunger is sure going to notice
reply-to.

If you don't want your email address scraped, don't include
it in the posting.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:12:09 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Mark Lloyd :
On 17 Jan 2006 18:52:04 GMT, Arno Wagner wrote:

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Chris Lewis wrote:
I still think they should make the manufacture and sale of slotted and
phillips screws a capital offence.

Careful! Outlawing stupidity, while highly desirable, would lead to
chaos.

It would. Also, it would require building a lot more prisons.

I did say capital offence, didn't I? ;-)

OK, but they do put them in prison for up to several years first.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

In article ,
10 says...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:41:06 -0500, Keith Williams
wrote:

In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

If I need one, it's across the borDER to Canuckistan. Hmm, I guess
I'll need a passport...

The only reason why we have phillips screwdrivers is because _you_
guys use 'em. If it wasn't for that southern influence, it'd
all be Robertson or better.

AIUI the Robertson patent licenses were deemed too expensive. I've
used Roberson head screws whenever possible for about thirty years.
Unfortunately, they're not ubiquitous. Note, Robertsons aren't
perfect (clutch and Torx are better, though more expensive).

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.


I have a screwdriver that comes with a lot of bits. It has standard,
Phillips, Torx (no 5-pointed though) and square. Then there's some
even stranger ones. There's one that looks like Phillips except the 4
points aren't quite aligned, and one with 3 points. Plus the security
bits with the recess in the middle.

Haven't seen anythign that looks like an asymetrical Phillips.
Sounds like a dumb idea.

And I almost forgot, some shaped like a bowtie.

I believe this is a "Clutch head". I've seen them used in mobile
homes and RVs.

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

As far as I know, the patents are still in effect - reengineering or something
silly like that.

Do you have a reference (patent number or such

Robertson's primary patent claims are a very precise taper on the tip,
so as to be better at gripping and releasing the screw. Square drive
normally has no taper.

....learn something new every day. I thought the patent was on the
square drive itself, though the taper makes more sense, patent
wise.

Years ago the taper probably mattered more, because of manufacturing
tolerance meaning that a taper was _necessary_ to get a good interference
fit. These days manufacturing is more accurate, so a no-taper tip will
grip too. Particularly in screws made to Robertson specs.

I recently bought some fairly high-grade square drive bits (these were
part of a very large surplus shipment sent up from the states and resold
here). They grip "real" domestic robertson screws real well. In fact, too
well at times, and you have to give a bit of a yank to get them to disengage.

Sounds like an advantage to me. ;-)

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.

A recent bit set I bought had three distinct "cross heads" with slightly
different geometries (and 3 sizes of each). One geometry was classic
phillips. One, I believe, Pozidrive. Don't know what the other was
called. Any, of a given size, would work more-or-less on a screw.
But if you wanted a good tight grip to minimize cam-out (especially
when you were going to drive a lot), you have to experiment with all three
types (at one or two sizes each) to see which one did best.

At least with square/Robertson they're interchangeable at a given size,
and if you pick the wrong size, it's real obvious (won't fit, or will
be _very_ sloppy).

Strictly speaking, McFeeley's (for example) sells square drive in the US,
not Robertson.

They may sell them, but aren't they still the "Robertson head"?

No. "Square drive" - interoperable with Robertson, but still not
Robertson. The name is trademarked too.

Ok, so you can't call it a "Robertson", like you can't call it an
"Xerox". ;-)

BTW, I was referring to the 1.6Gal flush and "outlaw" toilets, not
the screwdrivers.

Either way ;-)

The "outlaw toilets" are outlawed in the US.

I'm aware of that.

Actually their sale
is outlawed, hence the trip north (less than 50mi.) if I need to
replace one.

If you need one, you'd probably have to hurry. Most toilets
sold here these days are low flow too.

Maybe they'll have 'em in the border BORGs just for yanks. ;-)

--
Keith

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Odie Ferrous wrote:
"David C. Partridge" wrote:

Hmmmm why do you want to open the case of the drive? If you open it
outside a class 1 clean room, the drive WILL die.

Or are you talking about the drive mounting screws?

Perhaps the drive already *is* dead.

Don't overestimate clean rooms - they contain 100 particles per cubic
meter as opposed to an "average" room containing 600 particles. A
"clean" "average" room will contain far less than the 600 particles.

For what it's worth, I've had a drive running non-stop for over a week
without its cover (platters exposed) and haven't had any hiccups. This
hype about "clean rooms" is a load of drivel.

Interessting.

Arno

"James Sweet" wrote in message news:hLlzf.16289$sq.7248@trnddc01
Folkert Rienstra wrote:
"James Sweet" wrote in message news:rzYyf.15937$h47.10775@trnddc08
mm wrote:
On 16 Jan 2006 08:17:07 -0800, " wrote:
....
I've opened hard drives again and again in very filthy rooms and
they've never shown any ill effects over the days, or in some cases
weeks, that I operated them. I do this all the time with old drives
because I can see what's happening inside the drive while I test my
control circuitry.

If I was manufacturing hundreds of thousands of drives and had to worry
about warranties and customer satisfaction, I'd be doing it in a clean
room. And I would buy a new drive before attempting to repair a damaged
one. But you definitely can operate a hard drive without the cover for
a while; probably long enough to do whatever you want if you don't dawdle.

My drive is clicking, and one important partition has a very bad
directory structure. I'm not sure I can copy over even the good
partitions before it "fails". If I open it, what would I want to do
to stop the clicking, or to keep the clicking syndrome from preventing
me from copying the data to a good drive.


There's nothing you can do by opening it.
If it's clicking that means it's unable to read the disc

due to a hardware failure.

Nonsense.
If it's clicking it means it does a rezero every time it retries a read operation.
It does that on ECC errors and also on CRC errors on the interface.
Neither is necessarily caused by a hardware failure.
Bad power supply, overheated drive or bad data cable can cause this too.


Every single time I've ever had a hard drive clicking it was caused by a
failure of the drive,

So either you have a pathetically inadequate
small sample or you are killing all your drives.

I've never even heard of it

So you obviously should refrain from commen-
ting as if you are the resident expert on this.

caused by those other issues, with the exception being
a couple of early very hot running 10K rpm drives.

As if that can't happen to IDE drives.

Bad drive is 99% the reason.

In your case.
You are known as a 'pathetically inadequate sample'.

Arno Wagner wrote:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Odie Ferrous wrote:

"David C. Partridge" wrote:

Hmmmm why do you want to open the case of the drive? If you open it
outside a class 1 clean room, the drive WILL die.

Or are you talking about the drive mounting screws?


Perhaps the drive already *is* dead.


Don't overestimate clean rooms - they contain 100 particles per cubic
meter as opposed to an "average" room containing 600 particles. A
"clean" "average" room will contain far less than the 600 particles.


For what it's worth, I've had a drive running non-stop for over a week
without its cover (platters exposed) and haven't had any hiccups. This
hype about "clean rooms" is a load of drivel.


Interessting.



Interesting but the drive is running on borrowed time. Perhaps you
should store all your critical data on it and see how long it continues
to operate like that.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:08:11 -0500, Keith Williams
wrote:
newarkinone or others have security bit sets that mate to many of
these oddball types. I work in an instrument shop and have to
disassemble many tamper resistant things. Read carfully the
discriptions before you buy. The Wiha set I got is not there any
longer as it contains the posidrive. HTH
In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

As far as I know, the patents are still in effect - reengineering or something
silly like that.

Do you have a reference (patent number or such

Robertson's primary patent claims are a very precise taper on the tip,
so as to be better at gripping and releasing the screw. Square drive
normally has no taper.

...learn something new every day. I thought the patent was on the
square drive itself, though the taper makes more sense, patent
wise.

Years ago the taper probably mattered more, because of manufacturing
tolerance meaning that a taper was _necessary_ to get a good interference
fit. These days manufacturing is more accurate, so a no-taper tip will
grip too. Particularly in screws made to Robertson specs.

I recently bought some fairly high-grade square drive bits (these were
part of a very large surplus shipment sent up from the states and resold
here). They grip "real" domestic robertson screws real well. In fact, too
well at times, and you have to give a bit of a yank to get them to disengage.

Sounds like an advantage to me. ;-)

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.

A recent bit set I bought had three distinct "cross heads" with slightly
different geometries (and 3 sizes of each). One geometry was classic
phillips. One, I believe, Pozidrive. Don't know what the other was
called. Any, of a given size, would work more-or-less on a screw.
But if you wanted a good tight grip to minimize cam-out (especially
when you were going to drive a lot), you have to experiment with all three
types (at one or two sizes each) to see which one did best.

At least with square/Robertson they're interchangeable at a given size,
and if you pick the wrong size, it's real obvious (won't fit, or will
be _very_ sloppy).

Strictly speaking, McFeeley's (for example) sells square drive in the US,
not Robertson.

They may sell them, but aren't they still the "Robertson head"?

No. "Square drive" - interoperable with Robertson, but still not
Robertson. The name is trademarked too.

Ok, so you can't call it a "Robertson", like you can't call it an
"Xerox". ;-)

BTW, I was referring to the 1.6Gal flush and "outlaw" toilets, not
the screwdrivers.

Either way ;-)

The "outlaw toilets" are outlawed in the US.

I'm aware of that.

Actually their sale
is outlawed, hence the trip north (less than 50mi.) if I need to
replace one.

If you need one, you'd probably have to hurry. Most toilets
sold here these days are low flow too.

Maybe they'll have 'em in the border BORGs just for yanks. ;-)

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:08:11 -0500, Keith Williams
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:41:06 -0500, Keith Williams
wrote:

In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :

There was an article here once called "my outlaw toilet". Maybe it's
hiding screwdrivers.

If I need one, it's across the borDER to Canuckistan. Hmm, I guess
I'll need a passport...

The only reason why we have phillips screwdrivers is because _you_
guys use 'em. If it wasn't for that southern influence, it'd
all be Robertson or better.

AIUI the Robertson patent licenses were deemed too expensive. I've
used Roberson head screws whenever possible for about thirty years.
Unfortunately, they're not ubiquitous. Note, Robertsons aren't
perfect (clutch and Torx are better, though more expensive).

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.


I have a screwdriver that comes with a lot of bits. It has standard,
Phillips, Torx (no 5-pointed though) and square. Then there's some
even stranger ones. There's one that looks like Phillips except the 4
points aren't quite aligned, and one with 3 points. Plus the security
bits with the recess in the middle.

Haven't seen anythign that looks like an asymetrical Phillips.

It does lack bilateral symmetry, but is still radially symmetrical.
Somewhat like a propeller.

Sounds like a dumb idea.


A dumb idea. Probably to be used with dumb idea screws. That kind of
thing is supposedly used to restrict access (for "security" reasons).*

And I almost forgot, some shaped like a bowtie.

I believe this is a "Clutch head". I've seen them used in mobile
homes and RVs.

&&&

* - Thinking of that sort of stuff, I was just posting (on another
group) about the security check Windows Update is making. They call it
"Windows Genuine Advantage". I wish they'd quit using words that make
something look like an improvement, when all it does is REDUCE the
functionality of the Windows Update site.

A lock doesn't add anything to the thing that's locked. It takes
something away (access). Maybe it's something you WANT taken away, but
notice that such taking away it is actually a NEGATIVE contribution.
We don't need false labeling.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...

As far as I know, the patents are still in effect - reengineering or something
silly like that.

Do you have a reference (patent number or such

Turns out I wuz wrong, supposedly the last patent ran out in '64.

Wikipedia and other places have descriptions of why Robertson isn't more popular
these days.

Here's a good reference, with link to Wikipedia:

http://www.megginson.com/blogs/quode...-screwdrivers/

I identify very much with this comment:

If you've ever worked with a Robertson screw, you immediately feel the urge to kick
anyone who tries to make you use anything else, especially the Phillips screw with
its easy-to-strip head.

Classic "square drive" without taper is just a variation.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:08:11 -0500, Keith Williams
wrote:

In article ,
says...
According to Keith Williams :
In article ,
says...

There have been non-Robertson square drive screws and drivers available
for quite some time. They're so interoperable it's seldom possible
to tell them apart so we call them _all_ Robertson - but many of them
aren't really. Patent-wise at least.

Interesting. What's the difference? I thought the patents ran
out, which is why we're seeing them (for at least 30 years) in the
States.

As far as I know, the patents are still in effect - reengineering or something
silly like that.

Do you have a reference (patent number or such

Robertson's primary patent claims are a very precise taper on the tip,
so as to be better at gripping and releasing the screw. Square drive
normally has no taper.

...learn something new every day. I thought the patent was on the
square drive itself, though the taper makes more sense, patent
wise.

Years ago the taper probably mattered more, because of manufacturing
tolerance meaning that a taper was _necessary_ to get a good interference
fit. These days manufacturing is more accurate, so a no-taper tip will
grip too. Particularly in screws made to Robertson specs.

I recently bought some fairly high-grade square drive bits (these were
part of a very large surplus shipment sent up from the states and resold
here). They grip "real" domestic robertson screws real well. In fact, too
well at times, and you have to give a bit of a yank to get them to disengage.

Sounds like an advantage to me. ;-)


It often is. I get tired of screwdrivers that hold the screw just a
little (more common with small screws). This allows the screw to fall
off in an unexpected place, where it can be nearly impossible to find
and retrieve.

[Unlike the umpty-ump versions of Phillips which all behave noticably
differently.]

There are some that look like Phillips but are most certainly not.
HP used a screw that looked like a Phillips, but wasn't (IIRC it
had straight sides rather than curved). There were four radials
stamped in the head indicating the special head. I don't remember
the name of the head.

A recent bit set I bought had three distinct "cross heads" with slightly
different geometries (and 3 sizes of each). One geometry was classic
phillips. One, I believe, Pozidrive. Don't know what the other was
called. Any, of a given size, would work more-or-less on a screw.
But if you wanted a good tight grip to minimize cam-out (especially
when you were going to drive a lot), you have to experiment with all three
types (at one or two sizes each) to see which one did best.

At least with square/Robertson they're interchangeable at a given size,
and if you pick the wrong size, it's real obvious (won't fit, or will
be _very_ sloppy).

Strictly speaking, McFeeley's (for example) sells square drive in the US,
not Robertson.

They may sell them, but aren't they still the "Robertson head"?

No. "Square drive" - interoperable with Robertson, but still not
Robertson. The name is trademarked too.

Ok, so you can't call it a "Robertson", like you can't call it an
"Xerox". ;-)


I'll call it a Kleenex :-)

BTW, I was referring to the 1.6Gal flush and "outlaw" toilets, not
the screwdrivers.

Either way ;-)

The "outlaw toilets" are outlawed in the US.

I'm aware of that.

Actually their sale
is outlawed, hence the trip north (less than 50mi.) if I need to
replace one.

If you need one, you'd probably have to hurry. Most toilets
sold here these days are low flow too.

Maybe they'll have 'em in the border BORGs just for yanks. ;-)
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:18:59 GMT, jug wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:08:11 -0500, Keith Williams
wrote:
newarkinone or others have security bit sets that mate to many of
these oddball types. I work in an instrument shop and have to
disassemble many tamper resistant things. Read carfully the
discriptions before you buy. The Wiha set I got is not there any
longer as it contains the posidrive. HTH

I think there are several suppliers with names ending in "inone". The
place I got that screwdriver set (with a lot of strange bits, that
I've posted about before) is called "mcminone".

[snip]
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin