"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , cayoung61-
says...
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire
and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

First, I'd replace the dangerous and illegal [for this use] 12-2 cable
with 12-3, with the red and black wires connected to a two-pole 240V
breaker. Then I'd wire the space heater across the black and white, and
the hair dryer across the red and white.

That's 15A in the black wire, 14A in the red wire, and (15A - 14A) = 1A
in the white wire.

If you don't understand how that works, and why it's safe, and why the
setup you described is not ... then you oughta stop offering electrical
advice.
I'll second what Doug said. I make no claims to be an electrician, and know
just enough to be dangerous. But in any wiring or other repair, I don't go
by what will 'be safe for me, because I know how it is set up.' I go by what
will be safe for any guests, or for the next owner of the place. A wiring
setup can easily be in place for 50+ years or more. Are you gonna be
around that long, to make sure everyone knows about your 'good enough'
shortcut? Spend the few extra bucks, wire it to code or better, and never
have to worry about it again. If nothing else, when it comes time for you or
your heirs to sell, the buyer's inspector will likely catch it anyway, and
you'll have to pay more to redo the work at that point.

aem sends...

wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:13:46 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
m...


Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
gy.com...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:


With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even junior high
Science class...


Steve Scott wrote:

Actually he's right on this one. This fails code on two points.

You can't have a ground act as a current carrying wire.

You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it hasn't
met code in some time.

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:19 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:



Article 100 Definitions.


Dear Tom The Electrician : PAY SOME ****ING ATTENTION !!!

No one asked for a ****ing description of basic theory, the
point is the rig Mormy described is dangerous, illegal, and either
suicidal or homicidal depending on who exactly he plans to kill with
his little experiments in household wiring.

Sincerely,

Paul

The Licensed Master Electrician.





Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more
ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded
conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded
conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or
grounded conductor of the system.

It is a little like running one twelve volt bulb and two six volt bulbs

from two six volt batteries connected in series. I can ground the

common point of the two batteries to make the example even more
representative. If I want to run a six volt load I connect it across
only one battery by applying it between the outer end and common point
of either battery. If I want to run a twelve volt load I connect it to
the outer ends of both batteries. For this arrangement to work the
batteries must be connected in series with one batteries negative
connected to the other batteries positive. If the two batteries are
connected with both positive poles or both negative poles together than
the voltage across the non common ends of the two batteries is zero.

The original Edison circuits had DC on them but instead of batteries
they had two DC generators running in series with their common point
grounded. Originally used to reduce voltage drop in distribution Edison
circuits continue to be used today as a labor and materials conservation
technique. DC batteries arranged in Edison arrays are still used to
supply single phase emergency lighting panels in older buildings. When
the power fails the contactor supplying AC 208/120 single phase power to
those panels drops out and connects the three conductors of the single
phase feeder to 120 two volt wet cells connected in series and grounded
at the common point between batteries sixty and sixty one. That leaves
120 volts between each ungrounded conductor and the neutral and 240
volts between the two ungrounded conductors.



Paul
You might take your own advise. Steve Scott, the poster I was replying
to, said
You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it
hasn't met code in some time.
I was correcting that bad information. You can in fact run two or three
circuits of of a single neutral. I could understand your being so upset
if I had only quoted the OPs question but I also quoted the misstatement
that I was responding to so get a grip.

Take a chill pill.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:22:33 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:


Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 15:46:40 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:



Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.



That's 1A in the neutral if they're on opposite phases. However, how
are you going to make sure noone ever moves a breaker wrong, butting


I guess you figured out that last word was supposed to be "putting".
Spelling checkers can do bad stuff like that.


them on the same phase and making it 29A?



How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.com...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:


With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

Any feeder or branch circuit that supplies loads that are connected to
two or three ungrounded conductors must be protected by common trip
breakers or breakers equipped with listed handle ties. To disarrange
the circuit you would have to move at least one of the conductors to a
different breaker rather than just moving the breaker and that isn't
very likely.


That's what I wanted to know. I have a shared neutral circuit in my
house that's working OK now (different phases). I need to fix the
breakers.

The breakers only need fixing if the circuit supplies loads that are not
line to neutral or if the circuit supplies both ungrounded conductors to
devices mounted on the same yoke or strap. A qualified person is
supposed to know that three and four wire circuits must be supplied from
different voltages or phases. Any person who does not understand multi
wire branch circuits has absolutely no business removing the cover from
a panel cabinet.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 16:33:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:13:46 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
om...


Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
igy.com...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:


With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even junior high
Science class...


Steve Scott wrote:

Actually he's right on this one. This fails code on two points.

You can't have a ground act as a current carrying wire.

You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it hasn't
met code in some time.

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:19 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:



Article 100 Definitions.


Dear Tom The Electrician : PAY SOME ****ING ATTENTION !!!

No one asked for a ****ing description of basic theory, the
point is the rig Mormy described is dangerous, illegal, and either
suicidal or homicidal depending on who exactly he plans to kill with
his little experiments in household wiring.

Sincerely,

Paul

The Licensed Master Electrician.





Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more
ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded
conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded
conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or
grounded conductor of the system.

It is a little like running one twelve volt bulb and two six volt bulbs

from two six volt batteries connected in series. I can ground the

common point of the two batteries to make the example even more
representative. If I want to run a six volt load I connect it across
only one battery by applying it between the outer end and common point
of either battery. If I want to run a twelve volt load I connect it to
the outer ends of both batteries. For this arrangement to work the
batteries must be connected in series with one batteries negative
connected to the other batteries positive. If the two batteries are
connected with both positive poles or both negative poles together than
the voltage across the non common ends of the two batteries is zero.

The original Edison circuits had DC on them but instead of batteries
they had two DC generators running in series with their common point
grounded. Originally used to reduce voltage drop in distribution Edison
circuits continue to be used today as a labor and materials conservation
technique. DC batteries arranged in Edison arrays are still used to
supply single phase emergency lighting panels in older buildings. When
the power fails the contactor supplying AC 208/120 single phase power to
those panels drops out and connects the three conductors of the single
phase feeder to 120 two volt wet cells connected in series and grounded
at the common point between batteries sixty and sixty one. That leaves
120 volts between each ungrounded conductor and the neutral and 240
volts between the two ungrounded conductors.



Paul
You might take your own advise. Steve Scott, the poster I was replying
to, said
You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it
hasn't met code in some time.
I was correcting that bad information. You can in fact run two or three
circuits of of a single neutral. I could understand your being so upset
if I had only quoted the OPs question but I also quoted the misstatement
that I was responding to so get a grip.

Take a chill pill.

OK, my bad. :-)


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Steve Scott wrote:
Actually he's right on this one. This fails code on two points.

You can't have a ground act as a current carrying wire.


What about those adapters that convert the 220 for an electric stove
into 110 for the electrical side of a gas stove (lights, timer, clock,
ignitor, etc...?
Aren't they using the ground in that way?

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 16:39:07 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:22:33 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:


Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 15:46:40 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:



Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.



That's 1A in the neutral if they're on opposite phases. However, how
are you going to make sure noone ever moves a breaker wrong, butting


I guess you figured out that last word was supposed to be "putting".
Spelling checkers can do bad stuff like that.


them on the same phase and making it 29A?



How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
gy.com...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:


With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

Any feeder or branch circuit that supplies loads that are connected to
two or three ungrounded conductors must be protected by common trip
breakers or breakers equipped with listed handle ties. To disarrange
the circuit you would have to move at least one of the conductors to a
different breaker rather than just moving the breaker and that isn't
very likely.


That's what I wanted to know. I have a shared neutral circuit in my
house that's working OK now (different phases). I need to fix the
breakers.

The breakers only need fixing if the circuit supplies loads that are not
line to neutral or if the circuit supplies both ungrounded conductors to
devices mounted on the same yoke or strap. A qualified person is
supposed to know that three and four wire circuits must be supplied from
different voltages or phases. Any person who does not understand multi
wire branch circuits has absolutely no business removing the cover from
a panel cabinet.


Something still needs to be fixed. There is no way to tell from
looking at the panel, that different phases are required.

As I said in another pose, it shouldn't be too hard to rewire an
outlet, eliminating the (shared neutral) situation. I'll do that.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

“However it is my experience that those who believe it to be overkill just
don't understand why it was written the way it is.”



I have a strong suspicion that a considerable amount of it was for “Turf
Protection” for Electrical Contractors and Union Installers.



There are several things I did not mention in the previous post about “This
is enough to show that you should not attempt this installation yourself”.
One of the new houses I wired from scratch happened to be one of the very
first in our area to have a fully grounded system. The “Professional”
electricians were not yet installing fully grounded systems. Where would I
get the idea to do such a thing? From my Handy-Dandy Sears “Home Wiring
Simplified”, or some such title, hand book.



Also for those who reacted so hysterically about “ungrounded” neutral wire,
in this molded plastic wire, typical of much or most today, that particular
wire is actually as well insulated as the conductors, it just does not have
a separate sleeve with the sleeved conductors then having thinner body
insulation. Might want to check the construction of 6 Ga. and larger wire of
not too long ago, what comprised the Neutral. Never heard of any problem
with it.



By the way, does everyone here feel it is necessary to post complete
messages that are being responded too?



Walt Conner

WConner wrote:
"However it is my experience that those who believe it to be overkill
just don't understand why it was written the way it is."



I have a strong suspicion that a considerable amount of it was for
"Turf Protection" for Electrical Contractors and Union Installers.



You can suspect what you want, but from my experience, every rule,
including those that on first look sound suspicious have very good sound
safety and electrical reasons for being there. I repeat my opinion that
ignoring any part of the code is foolish.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

That's a fascinating approach. I can see that working. Didn't even think of
that -- effectively making a 220 volt space heater / hair dryer. Neat
technique!

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , cayoung61-
says...
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

First, I'd replace the dangerous and illegal [for this use] 12-2 cable
with 12-3, with the red and black wires connected to a two-pole 240V
breaker. Then I'd wire the space heater across the black and white, and
the hair dryer across the red and white.

That's 15A in the black wire, 14A in the red wire, and (15A - 14A) = 1A
in the white wire.

If you don't understand how that works, and why it's safe, and why the
setup you described is not ... then you oughta stop offering electrical
advice.

"Steve Scott" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 16:33:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:13:46 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
message
om...


Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black
wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire
and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
igy.com...
In article , "Stormin
Mormon"
wrote:


With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the
neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even
junior high
Science class...


Steve Scott wrote:

Actually he's right on this one. This fails code on two points.

You can't have a ground act as a current carrying wire.

You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it hasn't
met code in some time.

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:19 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:



Article 100 Definitions.


Dear Tom The Electrician : PAY SOME ****ING ATTENTION !!!

No one asked for a ****ing description of basic theory, the
point is the rig Mormy described is dangerous, illegal, and either
suicidal or homicidal depending on who exactly he plans to kill with
his little experiments in household wiring.

Sincerely,

Paul

The Licensed Master Electrician.





Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or
more
ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded
conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded
conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or
grounded conductor of the system.

It is a little like running one twelve volt bulb and two six volt bulbs

from two six volt batteries connected in series. I can ground the

common point of the two batteries to make the example even more
representative. If I want to run a six volt load I connect it across
only one battery by applying it between the outer end and common point
of either battery. If I want to run a twelve volt load I connect it to
the outer ends of both batteries. For this arrangement to work the
batteries must be connected in series with one batteries negative
connected to the other batteries positive. If the two batteries are
connected with both positive poles or both negative poles together than
the voltage across the non common ends of the two batteries is zero.

The original Edison circuits had DC on them but instead of batteries
they had two DC generators running in series with their common point
grounded. Originally used to reduce voltage drop in distribution
Edison
circuits continue to be used today as a labor and materials
conservation
technique. DC batteries arranged in Edison arrays are still used to
supply single phase emergency lighting panels in older buildings. When
the power fails the contactor supplying AC 208/120 single phase power
to
those panels drops out and connects the three conductors of the single
phase feeder to 120 two volt wet cells connected in series and grounded
at the common point between batteries sixty and sixty one. That leaves
120 volts between each ungrounded conductor and the neutral and 240
volts between the two ungrounded conductors.



Paul
You might take your own advise. Steve Scott, the poster I was replying
to, said
You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it
hasn't met code in some time.
I was correcting that bad information. You can in fact run two or three
circuits of of a single neutral. I could understand your being so upset
if I had only quoted the OPs question but I also quoted the misstatement
that I was responding to so get a grip.

Take a chill pill.

Tom, yes you can run 2 or a hundred circuits off a single neutral.
Does it meet the NEC? No, but feel free to wire your home in any
fashion you desire.


Steve,

Local codes may vary, but suggest first start with reading NEC 210-4(b)
before making any comments regarding NEC noncompliance.

A fairly good discussion can be found here :

http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/multiwir.htm

Assuming a balanced load and opposite "hot legs", no current flows within
the neutral conductor.....and even in the case where one side has no
connected load, the current carried by the neutral won't rise above what is
being drawn by the individual feeder.

--

SVL

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
. com...



Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
digy.com...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:



With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even junior high
Science class...


Steve Scott wrote:


Actually he's right on this one. This fails code on two points.

You can't have a ground act as a current carrying wire.

You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it hasn't
met code in some time.

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:19 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:



Article 100 Definitions.


Dear Tom The Electrician : PAY SOME ****ING ATTENTION !!!

No one asked for a ****ing description of basic theory, the
point is the rig Mormy described is dangerous, illegal, and either
suicidal or homicidal depending on who exactly he plans to kill with
his little experiments in household wiring.

Sincerely,

Paul

The Licensed Master Electrician.






Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more
ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded
conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded
conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or
grounded conductor of the system.

It is a little like running one twelve volt bulb and two six volt bulbs

from two six volt batteries connected in series. I can ground the


common point of the two batteries to make the example even more
representative. If I want to run a six volt load I connect it across
only one battery by applying it between the outer end and common point
of either battery. If I want to run a twelve volt load I connect it to
the outer ends of both batteries. For this arrangement to work the
batteries must be connected in series with one batteries negative
connected to the other batteries positive. If the two batteries are
connected with both positive poles or both negative poles together than
the voltage across the non common ends of the two batteries is zero.

The original Edison circuits had DC on them but instead of batteries
they had two DC generators running in series with their common point
grounded. Originally used to reduce voltage drop in distribution Edison
circuits continue to be used today as a labor and materials conservation
technique. DC batteries arranged in Edison arrays are still used to
supply single phase emergency lighting panels in older buildings. When
the power fails the contactor supplying AC 208/120 single phase power to
those panels drops out and connects the three conductors of the single
phase feeder to 120 two volt wet cells connected in series and grounded
at the common point between batteries sixty and sixty one. That leaves
120 volts between each ungrounded conductor and the neutral and 240
volts between the two ungrounded conductors.


Paul
You might take your own advise. Steve Scott, the poster I was replying
to, said

You can't run two circuits off one neutral. You used to but it
hasn't met code in some time.

I was correcting that bad information. You can in fact run two or three
circuits of of a single neutral. I could understand your being so upset
if I had only quoted the OPs question but I also quoted the misstatement
that I was responding to so get a grip.

Take a chill pill.

Steve Scott wrote:
Tom, yes you can run 2 or a hundred circuits off a single neutral.
Does it meet the NEC? No, but feel free to wire your home in any
fashion you desire.


Steve
You keep making the assertion that multi wire branch circuits in which
two or three ungrounded conductors share a neutral violates code. Would
you please quote chapter and verse to back up your position. If you
read my previous posting that is quoted above you will see that I have
provided the quote from the US National Electric Code (NEC) to back up
my assertion that this is a permitted practice. I expect you to do the
same.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

In article Aliwf.16920$v84.189@trnddc06, "WConner" wrote:
“However it is my experience that those who believe it to be overkill just
don't understand why it was written the way it is.”


I have a strong suspicion that a considerable amount of it was for “Turf
Protection” for Electrical Contractors and Union Installers.

The National Electrical Code is published by the National Fire Protection
Association. That should tell you something about the motives of its authors.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:
That's a fascinating approach. I can see that working. Didn't even think of
that -- effectively making a 220 volt space heater / hair dryer. Neat
technique!

Ummm.... no.

It's clear you still don't understand. As I suggested before, Google on
"Edison circuit" and learn something new.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:34:46 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Go look at your wires coiming into the house. Your whole house runs
on one neutral and it is smaller than either phase..

If he drove a ground rod at the second building connected to the
grounded conductor and installed a 2 pole disconnect the real issue
would boil down to the bare neutral.

It's wrong but it is far from the most dangerous thing in the world.


It is dangerous I fear you also subscribe to the idea that if
you don't understand they they wrote the code that way, you can
ignore it.

--

The code does allow a 3 wire feeder to s second building with no other
parallel metalic paths so the real issue is whether the grounded
conductor is insulated or not. I agree it is not code compliant. I
also have a hard time identifying the hazard definitively.

If that third wire is the un-insulated "ground" wire and if it is used
as a neutral (not the same as a ground) it is a current carrying wire. You
will have a situation where that un-insulated wire can be HOT. Maybe you
might recognize this fact, but would someone else who might want to change
some wiring in the garage know what was done???

The code is there for a reason, a very good reason. Ignoring it because
the danger is not understood, is foolish and dangerous.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:46:47 -0500, wrote:


On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:34:46 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Go look at your wires coiming into the house. Your whole house runs on
one neutral and it is smaller than either phase..

If he drove a ground rod at the second building connected to the
grounded conductor and installed a 2 pole disconnect the real issue
would boil down to the bare neutral.

It's wrong but it is far from the most dangerous thing in the world.


It is dangerous I fear you also subscribe to the idea that if you
don't understand they they wrote the code that way, you can ignore it.

--

The code does allow a 3 wire feeder to s second building with no other
parallel metalic paths so the real issue is whether the grounded
conductor is insulated or not. I agree it is not code compliant. I
also have a hard time identifying the hazard definitively.

neutral != ground.

There may be enough of a voltage difference that grounding the neutral may
present a fire hazard.

I have a strong suspicion that a considerable amount of it was for “Turf
Protection” for Electrical Contractors and Union Installers.

The National Electrical Code is published by the National Fire Protection
Association. That should tell you something about the motives of its
authors.

Who published the Code has nothing what-so-ever to do with who lobbied to
have certain "Turf Protection" included.

Now for all you people who are running around frantically waving your CODE
books, I am sure the next time you step into your car or truck and head down
the highway, you will remember there is a code involved here also. Part of
this code is posted on signs along the way and read - SPEED LIMIT 20, 35,
50, 55. etc, MPH. If you are running 56 MPH in 55 zone, you are breaking the
code. Ignoring the code may lead to arrest, personal injury or death. To
quote someone here - "The code is there for a reason, a very good reason.
Ignoring it because the danger is not understood, is foolish and dangerous"
anyone recognize this?

Walt Conner

Over and Out

Steve
You keep making the assertion that multi wire branch circuits in which
two or three ungrounded conductors share a neutral violates code. Would
you please quote chapter and verse to back up your position. If you
read my previous posting that is quoted above you will see that I have
provided the quote from the US National Electric Code (NEC) to back up
my assertion that this is a permitted practice. I expect you to do the
same.

It is not only permitted practice, but done in nearly every home in this
country. At your service, you have only ONE neutral returning.

Neutrals have to be properly sized, by trained electricians who can make
sure they balance correctly, but it's common.

A Neutral should NEVER, EVER be a non-insulated conductor in your home.
It's carrying 120 V (or whatever) and the same current as the wire
coming from your breaker. 3 wire systems with equal loads on both hots
(but supplied out-of-phase of each other) will 'cancel' current out..
but it's not a given and imbalances routinely occur... which present
hazardous current on the neutral.

A Neutral should NEVER, EVER be grounded ANYWHERE but at the panel where
it enters your property (called a service entrance). Doing otherwise
exposes you to electrocution and fire hazards.

Jake

wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:30:45 GMT, AZ Nomad
wrote:


There may be enough of a voltage difference that grounding the neutral may
present a fire hazard.


A fire hazard, let's not get silly here. 250.32 DOES allow a 3 wire
feed to a remote building. That is a fact. The issue is whether it is
insulated or not. Bear in mind it is connected to grounding electrodes
at BOTH ends along with the equipment grounding system at the far
end..

I will not say it is legal but I also can't put my finger on the
hazard.

In addition to my bread work as an electrician I also crawl down long
snotty hallways looking for other peoples children at 0dark30. In other
words I am a volunteer firefighter / rescuer. I have run a rescue call
for an electrocution caused by an open neutral in a three wire feeder to
a detached garage. The victim was found by his wife when he failed to
come in for supper. He had a three wire drill in his hand, he had been
working in hot weather and was sweating, he was kneeling on a concrete
floor, there were no drilled holes in the piece of stock that was set up
for drilling. The slab on grade concrete floor was a better path to
ground then the driven rod electrode at the garages building
disconnecting means. The investigator from the state department of
industrial safety, that the fire department called on to help determine
the cause of the death, concluded that a failure of a neutral
termination had raised the entire garage's grounding system to 120 volts
above ground. The victim had marked and set up the stock for drilling,
laid out the drill, plugged it in, knelt down and picked up the drill
and immediately suffered a fatal shock. A four pole fall of potential
ground resistance test of the garage's driven rod electrode measured 78
ohms to earth. Several things could have been done to avoid that death.
One of those things would have been the use of a four wire feeder so
that it would have taken two or more failures to energize the garages
grounding system.

It is also true that if the garage floor had been reinforced and the
reinforcing steel had been used for grounding the floor would not have
been at a different voltage then the garages grounding system but I have
yet to encounter an existing garage were the reinforcing steel was used
as an electrode. With the adoption of the 2005 version of the NEC that
will become more common. As normally found detached garages with
concrete floors, three wire feeders, and driven rod electrodes if any
are only one wiring failure from dangerous.

When a four wire feeder is used it takes two or three failures to
energize the building's grounding system above earth potential. First
the neutral has to fail open. Second there must be a ground fault on
the neutral. Third the Equipment Grounding (Bonding) Conductor of the
feeder has to be open. I'll take the three failure possibility over the
single failure possibility on my best day.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:55:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:30:45 GMT, AZ Nomad
wrote:


There may be enough of a voltage difference that grounding the neutral may
present a fire hazard.


A fire hazard, let's not get silly here. 250.32 DOES allow a 3 wire
feed to a remote building. That is a fact. The issue is whether it is
insulated or not. Bear in mind it is connected to grounding electrodes
at BOTH ends along with the equipment grounding system at the far
end..

I will not say it is legal but I also can't put my finger on the
hazard.

In addition to my bread work as an electrician I also crawl down long
snotty hallways looking for other peoples children at 0dark30.

Say WHAT ?????

In other
words I am a volunteer firefighter / rescuer.

Whew ! For a second there I thought you were admitting to
being a pervert ! :-)


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Jake wrote:


A Neutral should NEVER, EVER be grounded ANYWHERE but at the panel where
it enters your property (called a service entrance). Doing otherwise
exposes you to electrocution and fire hazards.


One of the ways to wire a feeder to a garage, or other separate
building, is to run hots and a neutral and connect the neutral to a
grounding electrode (ground rod) at the garage (similar to a service
entrance). 2005NEC 250.32B2

bud--

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:44:39 -0500, wrote:


On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:59:18 GMT, "WConner"
wrote:

Ignoring the code may lead to arrest

This is really getting silly now.

Really? If there's a fatality and it comes to light that you did electrical
work without pulling a permit, nobody is going to care?

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:55:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:30:45 GMT, AZ Nomad
wrote:


There may be enough of a voltage difference that grounding the neutral
may
present a fire hazard.


A fire hazard, let's not get silly here. 250.32 DOES allow a 3 wire
feed to a remote building. That is a fact. The issue is whether it is
insulated or not. Bear in mind it is connected to grounding electrodes
at BOTH ends along with the equipment grounding system at the far
end..

I will not say it is legal but I also can't put my finger on the
hazard.

In addition to my bread work as an electrician I also crawl down long
snotty hallways looking for other peoples children at 0dark30.

Say WHAT ?????

In other
words I am a volunteer firefighter / rescuer.

Whew ! For a second there I thought you were admitting to
being a pervert ! :-)


Yup...

One should NEVER admit to THAT !!!!

G

--

SVL

Just TRY to sell that house, home inspectors love stuff like that

wrote:

Just TRY to sell that house, home inspectors love stuff like that


They love houses wired to the National Electrical Code?

bud--

wrote:
Just TRY to sell that house, home inspectors love stuff like that


They love houses wired to the National Electrical Code?

bud--


No houses with shortcuts..... home inspectors love finding them, and
buyers really enjoy running the price down.

do it right the first time, its safer, and elminates long term hassles

wrote:
Just TRY to sell that house, home inspectors love stuff like that


They love houses wired to the National Electrical Code?

bud--


No houses with shortcuts..... home inspectors love finding them, and
buyers really enjoy running the price down.

do it right the first time, its safer, and elminates long term hassles

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:55:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:


In addition to my bread work as an electrician I also crawl down long
snotty hallways looking for other peoples children at 0dark30.


Then you know about the NEC proposal process. If you want to make 3
wire feeders illegal, write a proposal, see what they say.

What led you to the conclusion that I "want to make 3 wire feeders illegal?"
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

The Tom Horne wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:55:16 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:

In addition to my bread work as an electrician I also crawl down long
snotty hallways looking for other peoples children at 0dark30.


Then you know about the NEC proposal process. If you want to make 3
wire feeders illegal, write a proposal, see what they say.



What led you to the conclusion that I "want to make 3 wire feeders illegal?"
--
Tom Horne

Because that's Greg. :-)

WConner posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

"I am not sure about your grounding idea either. "

I think if you check your house wiring, you will find it is grounded this
way, if you have a house built within the last 30 years or so at least.

"You forgot zoned heat piping and an underground tunnel so he never has to
go
outside. LOL"

ditto

Most likely the existing wire will be used for lighting circuit and a new
line run. For those talking about how "cheap wire is" have you priced 10-3
w/ground direct burial wire lately? It will take a season or two to
re-establish a nice lawn over the trench also.

Now for the "black tape, etc" comment, do you run two black wires to/from
your wall switches? Since you break the black, this is what you should do,
right? Better check to see all of yours are that way.

I wasn't very clear, the thought was to come from a new 220V breaker. The
problem is the neutral would not have individual insulation, but would be
insulated within the bundle, which in the case of the neutral, shouldn't
make that much difference.

Thanks,

Walt Conner



Walt, you ask a question (which has been asked & answered SOOOO many times)
didn't do ANY research get good answers then argue with them and will do it the
way you want. Go away.
--
My boss said I was dumb and apathetic.
I said I don't know and I don't care...

Tekkie

using a transformer for the 110 would be safer but cost more
what's you life worth

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:19 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
.. .
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even junior high
Science class...