A son has a garage that is about 25 ft. from his house. Previous owner ran a
direct burial 2-12 w/ground wire to it. It is a 20a 110v circuit. I am
wondering about changing it to 220v by using the ground wire as the neutral,
white wire to one side of the breaker box, black wire to other then putting
down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new ground wire from
it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available so he can do some
modest shop work??

Thanks for any help,

Walt Conner

Wire is so cheap why not do it right?

use a 10 gauge wire for less voltage drops.

tools like a circiular saw are a BIG current draw and common in the
home shop

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:15:53 GMT, WConner wrote:


A son has a garage that is about 25 ft. from his house. Previous owner ran a
direct burial 2-12 w/ground wire to it. It is a 20a 110v circuit. I am
wondering about changing it to 220v by using the ground wire as the neutral,
white wire to one side of the breaker box, black wire to other then putting
down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new ground wire from
it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available so he can do some
modest shop work??

You'll never get such a kluge to pass inspection and if the place burns
down you'll never collect insurance and may face criminal charges.

I'd recomend spending the 40 bucks for wire and paying a kid the 4 hours labor
to dig the trench to burry a new wire.

"You'll never get such a kluge to pass inspection and if the place burns
down you'll never collect insurance and may face criminal charges."

Mind explaining your rationalization? Might want to re-read my post.

Walt Conner

WConner wrote:
"You'll never get such a kluge to pass inspection and if the place
burns down you'll never collect insurance and may face criminal
charges."
Mind explaining your rationalization? Might want to re-read my post.

Well for a start, I don't believe that an un-insulated neutral is
allowed. I am not sure about your grounding idea either. I don't think it
meets code.

I have to agree with those who are suggesting to do it right. The added
cost would be well worth it to me.


Walt Conner

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"I am not sure about your grounding idea either. "

I think if you check your house wiring, you will find it is grounded this
way, if you have a house built within the last 30 years or so at least.

"You forgot zoned heat piping and an underground tunnel so he never has to
go
outside. LOL"

ditto

Most likely the existing wire will be used for lighting circuit and a new
line run. For those talking about how "cheap wire is" have you priced 10-3
w/ground direct burial wire lately? It will take a season or two to
re-establish a nice lawn over the trench also.

Now for the "black tape, etc" comment, do you run two black wires to/from
your wall switches? Since you break the black, this is what you should do,
right? Better check to see all of yours are that way.

I wasn't very clear, the thought was to come from a new 220V breaker. The
problem is the neutral would not have individual insulation, but would be
insulated within the bundle, which in the case of the neutral, shouldn't
make that much difference.

Thanks,

Walt Conner

WConner wrote:
"I am not sure about your grounding idea either. "

I think if you check your house wiring, you will find it is grounded
this way, if you have a house built within the last 30 years or so at
least.
"You forgot zoned heat piping and an underground tunnel so he never
has to go
outside. LOL"

ditto

Most likely the existing wire will be used for lighting circuit and a
new line run. For those talking about how "cheap wire is" have you
priced 10-3 w/ground direct burial wire lately? It will take a season
or two to re-establish a nice lawn over the trench also.

Now for the "black tape, etc" comment, do you run two black wires
to/from your wall switches? Since you break the black, this is what
you should do, right? Better check to see all of yours are that way.

I wasn't very clear, the thought was to come from a new 220V breaker.
The problem is the neutral would not have individual insulation, but
would be insulated within the bundle, which in the case of the
neutral, shouldn't make that much difference.

This is enough to indicate you should not be attempting this work. Your
plan does not meet code. Code is there for a good reason. Neutral is a
current carrying line NOT a ground. Oh sure you may say, it is connected to
the ground so it is ground, but NO. That is a common comment from someone
who does not understand that there is a good reason for every part of the
code. If the connection to the ground should become separated, that
:neutral may well be carrying 120V.

Please for your own good, follow the good advice you have been given and
do the job right. In fact I suggest it would be a lot safer if you would
chose to hire a professional to do it for you. Note all those who have
responded to your suggestions and how many have found fault with your ideas.

Look over the usual responses and you will find that most of the time we
agree with good save ideas. That should tell you that your plan is not good
and safe.



Thanks,

Walt Conner

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

WConner posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

"I am not sure about your grounding idea either. "

I think if you check your house wiring, you will find it is grounded this
way, if you have a house built within the last 30 years or so at least.

"You forgot zoned heat piping and an underground tunnel so he never has to
go
outside. LOL"

ditto

Most likely the existing wire will be used for lighting circuit and a new
line run. For those talking about how "cheap wire is" have you priced 10-3
w/ground direct burial wire lately? It will take a season or two to
re-establish a nice lawn over the trench also.

Now for the "black tape, etc" comment, do you run two black wires to/from
your wall switches? Since you break the black, this is what you should do,
right? Better check to see all of yours are that way.

I wasn't very clear, the thought was to come from a new 220V breaker. The
problem is the neutral would not have individual insulation, but would be
insulated within the bundle, which in the case of the neutral, shouldn't
make that much difference.

Thanks,

Walt Conner



Walt, you ask a question (which has been asked & answered SOOOO many times)
didn't do ANY research get good answers then argue with them and will do it the
way you want. Go away.
--
My boss said I was dumb and apathetic.
I said I don't know and I don't care...

Tekkie

My definition of "modest shop work", is a few power tools for home projects.
Even at that, you're still probably going to be tripping a 20 amp breaker.
If you need several pieces of 230volt equipment, then do it right.

"WConner" wrote in message
news:JMhvf.6482$Yc2.4004@trnddc04...
A son has a garage that is about 25 ft. from his house. Previous owner ran
a
direct burial 2-12 w/ground wire to it. It is a 20a 110v circuit. I am
wondering about changing it to 220v by using the ground wire as the
neutral,
white wire to one side of the breaker box, black wire to other then
putting
down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new ground wire
from
it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available so he can do
some
modest shop work??

Thanks for any help,

Walt Conner

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:15:53 GMT, "WConner"
wrote:

down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new ground wire from
it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available so he can do some
modest shop work??

If you keep it at 110, he'll be even more modest!

Thanks for any help,

Walt Conner



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

No problem just mark the white wire with black tape and wrap the ground with
white, any idiot knows whats going on including the inspector.
"mm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:15:53 GMT, "WConner"
wrote:

down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new ground wire
from
it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available so he can do
some
modest shop work??

If you keep it at 110, he'll be even more modest!

Thanks for any help,

Walt Conner



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

"WConner" wrote in message
news:JMhvf.6482$Yc2.4004@trnddc04...
A son has a garage that is about 25 ft. from his house. Previous owner ran
a direct burial 2-12 w/ground wire to it. It is a 20a 110v circuit. I am
wondering about changing it to 220v by using the ground wire as the
neutral, white wire to one side of the breaker box, black wire to other
then putting down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new
ground wire from it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available
so he can do some modest shop work??

Like everyone else, I would advise you to not be so cheap and do it
properly; not to mention legally.
But, if you put all the 120v stuff on GFCI outlets, I can't see it is
particularly dangerous. The GFCI would prevent ground loops; so the major
problem would be that the neutral is a potential shock hazzard, but I have
legal (well in 1982 when the were installed) "uninsulated neutrals" and they
haven't caused any problems. But of course, my cables say "uninsulated
neutral" all over them, so no one working on them would be surprised; yours
wouldn't.

I would recommend running the new wire for two reasons
-Larger Gauge will keep voltage steadier and less likely to heat up and
cause more problems while running alot of tools
-Saftey first... Uninsulated neutral is just one step away from an
uncomfortable experience with AC current.
Its worth the extra cost and effort in the long run...!


http://www.LivingAutomated.com

not permitted.
after you call the local where is my underground utility company to
mark stuff, think about trenching and include some water, sewer for a
sink, phone, internet, cable. maybe upgrade to that subpanel you want.
see wiring faq at:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

You forgot zoned heat piping and an underground tunnel so he never has to go
outside. LOL

"buffalobill" wrote in message
oups.com...
not permitted.
after you call the local where is my underground utility company to
mark stuff, think about trenching and include some water, sewer for a
sink, phone, internet, cable. maybe upgrade to that subpanel you want.
see wiring faq at:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

Wire is so cheap why not do it right?

use a 10 gauge wire for less voltage drops.

tools like a circiular saw are a BIG current draw and common in the
home shop

In article JMhvf.6482$Yc2.4004@trnddc04, "WConner" wrote:
A son has a garage that is about 25 ft. from his house. Previous owner ran a
direct burial 2-12 w/ground wire to it. It is a 20a 110v circuit. I am
wondering about changing it to 220v by using the ground wire as the neutral,
white wire to one side of the breaker box, black wire to other then putting
down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new ground wire from
it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available so he can do some
modest shop work??

Multiple violations of the National Electrical Code here. Code does not permit
the use of an uninsulated neutral. The separate ground wire doesn't meet Code
either, as it fails the requirement that all conductors on a given circuit
must be in the same cable or conduit. Do it right: run a new, proper 220V
circuit using 10-3 WG direct-burial cable.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral in
a big way.

Probably the original wire wasn't a clad ground, so it's not totally sure to
be clean and not corroded thrugh.

Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. I'd suggest like the other say, to
run a new wire. I can't remember if it's UF, or what they call it. But there
is wire th at is designed to be burried. I like the other fellow's suggestio
to go with 10 gage. Greater capacity, lower line loss.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"WConner" wrote in message
news:JMhvf.6482$Yc2.4004@trnddc04...
A son has a garage that is about 25 ft. from his house. Previous owner ran a
direct burial 2-12 w/ground wire to it. It is a 20a 110v circuit. I am
wondering about changing it to 220v by using the ground wire as the neutral,
white wire to one side of the breaker box, black wire to other then putting
down a new ground rod out from the garage and running a new ground wire from
it for ground in the garage making 220v and 110v available so he can do some
modest shop work??

Thanks for any help,

Walt Conner

In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Stormin
Mormon" wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the
neutral in a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

But is the OP who appears to not give much credit to code, even know
there is more than one way they may be connected?

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black
wire and the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the
white wire and the bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.

If the space heater is on one phase and the hair dryer is on the other
phase that neutral (bare or otherwise) is carrying one amp. Of course that
means it is live and can produce injury and can be shorted out to ground.
Which is why you can use the same size wire and why it should never be
treated as a ground wire.

.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Stormin
Mormon" wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the
neutral in a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

Google on "Edison circuit".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even junior high
Science class...

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:19 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
.. .
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

First, I need to know if you're suicidal or homicidal ?

I know you're ONE of those two, but which ? I hope it's the
former - that is your right. The latter infringes on the rights of
others.



--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even junior high
Science class...


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

using a transformer for the 110 would be safer but cost more
what's you life worth

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:16:19 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
.. .
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)



Sounds like Stormy fell asleep in Basic Electricity 101 or even junior high
Science class...

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 15:46:40 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.


That's 1A in the neutral if they're on opposite phases. However, how
are you going to make sure noone ever moves a breaker wrong, butting
them on the same phase and making it 29A?

How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 15:46:40 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:


Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.



That's 1A in the neutral if they're on opposite phases. However, how
are you going to make sure noone ever moves a breaker wrong, butting
them on the same phase and making it 29A?


How would you wire it differently?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral in
a big way.

Not if they're connected properly.

Any feeder or branch circuit that supplies loads that are connected to
two or three ungrounded conductors must be protected by common trip
breakers or breakers equipped with listed handle ties. To disarrange
the circuit you would have to move at least one of the conductors to a
different breaker rather than just moving the breaker and that isn't
very likely.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 15:46:40 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black
wire and the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the
white wire and the bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.


That's 1A in the neutral if they're on opposite phases. However, how
are you going to make sure noone ever moves a breaker wrong, butting
them on the same phase and making it 29A?

How would you wire it differently?

--


This is another example of what can happen when you want to ignore a
code requirement because you don't understand. If it is code, you follow
it. End of discussion.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

In article , cayoung61-
says...
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

First, I'd replace the dangerous and illegal [for this use] 12-2 cable
with 12-3, with the red and black wires connected to a two-pole 240V
breaker. Then I'd wire the space heater across the black and white, and
the hair dryer across the red and white.

That's 15A in the black wire, 14A in the red wire, and (15A - 14A) = 1A
in the white wire.

If you don't understand how that works, and why it's safe, and why the
setup you described is not ... then you oughta stop offering electrical
advice.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , cayoung61-
says...
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire
and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

First, I'd replace the dangerous and illegal [for this use] 12-2 cable
with 12-3, with the red and black wires connected to a two-pole 240V
breaker. Then I'd wire the space heater across the black and white, and
the hair dryer across the red and white.

That's 15A in the black wire, 14A in the red wire, and (15A - 14A) = 1A
in the white wire.

If you don't understand how that works, and why it's safe, and why the
setup you described is not ... then you oughta stop offering electrical
advice.
I'll second what Doug said. I make no claims to be an electrician, and know
just enough to be dangerous. But in any wiring or other repair, I don't go
by what will 'be safe for me, because I know how it is set up.' I go by what
will be safe for any guests, or for the next owner of the place. A wiring
setup can easily be in place for 50+ years or more. Are you gonna be
around that long, to make sure everyone knows about your 'good enough'
shortcut? Spend the few extra bucks, wire it to code or better, and never
have to worry about it again. If nothing else, when it comes time for you or
your heirs to sell, the buyer's inspector will likely catch it anyway, and
you'll have to pay more to redo the work at that point.

aem sends...

That's a fascinating approach. I can see that working. Didn't even think of
that -- effectively making a 220 volt space heater / hair dryer. Neat
technique!

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , cayoung61-
says...
Well, supposing I'm running a space heater (15 amps) on the black wire and
the bare wire. And running a hair dryer (14 amps) on the white wire and
the
bare wire. That's 29amps in a bare piece of 12 ga.

How would you wire it differently?

First, I'd replace the dangerous and illegal [for this use] 12-2 cable
with 12-3, with the red and black wires connected to a two-pole 240V
breaker. Then I'd wire the space heater across the black and white, and
the hair dryer across the red and white.

That's 15A in the black wire, 14A in the red wire, and (15A - 14A) = 1A
in the white wire.

If you don't understand how that works, and why it's safe, and why the
setup you described is not ... then you oughta stop offering electrical
advice.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the neutral
in
a big way.


If the neutral is the same size as the hot wire it is impossiable to
overheat it unless you are overheating one of the hot wires in normal
operation.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
With two hots and one neutral, you'd be possible to overheat the
neutral in a big way.


If the neutral is the same size as the hot wire it is impossiable to
overheat it unless you are overheating one of the hot wires in normal
operation.

Well that is true if they are properly wired to opposite phases, but
from what we have seen of the OP I fear it is a 50:50 chance of him getting
it right.

I think Storm has it right.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit