I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1
14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?

As long as you don't increase the breaker size, but it would be easier to
just donate the cat to a Chinese restaurant.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1
14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?

Hang on- are you talking about a 20 amp circuit? Is the breaker a
20A? Isn't 14/2 rated for 15A? Only an amateur here, but I'm hoping
someone more knowledgable can clear this up. Better I make a fool of
myself than you set up a potential house fire.

14/2 is rated up to 30A, go ahead its cool.
wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1
14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?

In article .com,
Sev wrote:
Hang on- are you talking about a 20 amp circuit? Is the breaker a
20A? Isn't 14/2 rated for 15A? Only an amateur here, but I'm hoping
someone more knowledgable can clear this up. Better I make a fool of
myself than you set up a potential house fire.


You are correct.. 14 is rated for 15 amps, and 12 is rated for 20 amps.
If you have 14/2 wiring, the breaker feeding it must be 15 amps.
If you are using #12 for that circuit (and it must be the entire circuit),
you can use a 20 amp breaker.

As a rule, you can always use a breaker rated for less than the capacity
of the smallest wire in the circuit, but you should never do the opposite.

You can use either a 15 amp or 20 amp receptacle on either a 15 or 20 amp
circuit, except when using a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit, in which
case it must be a 20 amp receptacle. (I think in this case, 'single' refers
to the number of locations, and a duplex receptacle would be be considered
a 'single' receptacle.)


--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net |
| P.O. Box 19792, Stanford, Ca 94309 |
-- I am Me, I am only Me, And no one else is Me, What could be simpler? --

Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white
jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the
only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its
ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the
GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the
recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.

yes. you have 15 amp 14/2 with no ground. you should have a grounded
outlet for your washer.
appliances like this are designated to be connected to a separate
grounded circuit. white is supposed to be the ac common, and black the
hot. by changing to a 15 amp gfi you will overcome the shock hazard
from the ungrounded washer and keep the cat safe. if it pops when you
plug the wahser into it your washer had an undiscovered shock hazard.
an ac radio will help you find an unmarked breaker.

You should not jumper the two Hots on the GFI Recept. You wire up the GFI
Recept differently then a normal Recept. The Hot is Already connected
internally though the GFI Circuitry, as it the Neutral.

So if you just want to use the 2 Outlets that are on the GFI, just hook up
the top outer screws on the GFI, You don't need to hook up the bottom set
unless you are going to feed another outlet.

If you are going to feed another outlet, then you hook up the other outlets
to the LOAD side (inner bottom) of the GFI.

the Different Color for 12/x romex is not that old. I still have lots of
White 12/2. You would normally have 12/2 with a 20a breaker and 14/2 with a
15a breaker.

Scott-

"waldowonka" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white
jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the
only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its
ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the
GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the
recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.

waldowonka wrote:
Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white
jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the
only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its
ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the
GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the
recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.
On GFCIs that I've worked with (Leviaton, Cooper) one set of (2) brass
(y'know black-brass-burn your -ss) and chrome (usually) screws are
marked "Line". The other two are marked "Load" . Connect to the load to
connect other outlets that you want protected. Sounds like you
connected the in and out together. The GFCI won't like that.
All washers and dryers in the laundry room should be grounded to a
metallic cold water pipe. Use crimp screw connectors and #12 stranded
green wire. Find the grounding points on the back of the appliances.
As far as the grounded outlet is concerned, with the GFCI you'll be
closer to code.
The wire gauge would be written on the side of the cable and #14 is
rated at 15 A. The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an
outlet on it.
Richard

thats the ticket. Thanks ...

"The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an outlet on it."

Whoa... So you mean all of the Lighting Circuit outlets I just put in the
Garage for the Plug in Shop lights the Inspector is going to complain about?

I put in 3 outlets per circuit all branched from a Junction box..

hmmm...

Scott-

"spudnuty" wrote in message
ups.com...

waldowonka wrote:
Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white
jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the
only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its
ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the
GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the
recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.
On GFCIs that I've worked with (Leviaton, Cooper) one set of (2) brass
(y'know black-brass-burn your -ss) and chrome (usually) screws are
marked "Line". The other two are marked "Load" . Connect to the load to
connect other outlets that you want protected. Sounds like you
connected the in and out together. The GFCI won't like that.
All washers and dryers in the laundry room should be grounded to a
metallic cold water pipe. Use crimp screw connectors and #12 stranded
green wire. Find the grounding points on the back of the appliances.
As far as the grounded outlet is concerned, with the GFCI you'll be
closer to code.
The wire gauge would be written on the side of the cable and #14 is
rated at 15 A. The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an
outlet on it.
Richard

wrote in message
...
On 30 Dec 2005 18:54:24 -0800, "spudnuty" wrote:

The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an
outlet on it.


HUH? Can you cite that rule?

I would like to see him reference grounding appliances to water pipes.
Thats actually a violation isn't it?

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

On 30 Dec 2005 14:02:41 -0800, wrote:

I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1

Electric catbox? Is this like an electric chair for cats? Cool man.
How many can you do a day?


14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:06:48 -0500, "Rush Limballes"
wrote:

14/2 is rated up to 30A, go ahead its cool.

Do you realize that news propagation is such that almost no one gets
every post? So they may not get the other posts that correct you.

This post has no humor at all.

Your stupid answers are getting too stupid and if sometime someone
believes you, you may kill him or his family. Are you 25 y.o. going
on 12?

wrote in message
roups.com...
I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1
14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?




Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Bob Vaughan wrote:

In article .com,
Sev wrote:

Hang on- are you talking about a 20 amp circuit? Is the breaker a
20A? Isn't 14/2 rated for 15A? Only an amateur here, but I'm hoping
someone more knowledgable can clear this up. Better I make a fool of
myself than you set up a potential house fire.



You are correct.. 14 is rated for 15 amps, and 12 is rated for 20 amps.
If you have 14/2 wiring, the breaker feeding it must be 15 amps.
If you are using #12 for that circuit (and it must be the entire circuit),
you can use a 20 amp breaker.

As a rule, you can always use a breaker rated for less than the capacity
of the smallest wire in the circuit, but you should never do the opposite.

You can use either a 15 amp or 20 amp receptacle on either a 15 or 20 amp
circuit, except when using a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit, in which
case it must be a 20 amp receptacle. (I think in this case, 'single' refers
to the number of locations, and a duplex receptacle would be be considered
a 'single' receptacle.)


Laundry circuits for a long time have be 20A. The Romex high probablilty
is 12-2.

More than one receptacle on a circuit (including duplex):
15A ckt - 15A outlets (a 20A outlet could power a 20A device)
20A ckt - 15 or 20A outlets (a 15A duplex outlet can supply a total
of 20A but 15A max for each outlet)

Single receptacle on a circuit: the outlet has to be rated higher
amperage than the circuit - 15A circuit - 20A outlet, or 30A or 50A...
This is a bizare provision which may make sense for odd receptacles like
twist lock, but any competent person on a residential circuit would use:
15A circuit - 15A outlet
20A circuit - 20A outlet (15A not permitted)

bud--

I'm IBEW. We've been using #14 for years for 15 A circuits. Lately
we're seeing as noted he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_(U.S.)
"minimum 12AWG copper wire for 20 amp circuits
minimum 14AWG wire, copper or 12 awg aluminum for 15 amp circuits (some
local codes require a minimum of 12 gauge for 15 amp circuits, except
for switch legs - that is, circuit portions that are strictly between a
light switch and the light that it serves."
Early in the year we had to pull out a bunch of #14 and replace it with
#12. Talk about a pain.
The paraphrase of the actual section as applies here, also noted by bud
above:
"Section 220-3b of the code requires two special circuits to serve only
appliance outlets in kitchen, laundry, pantry, family-room, dining
room, and breakfast room. Both circuits must be extended to the
kitchen; the other rooms may be served by either one or both of these
circuits. No lighting outlets may be connected to these circuits, and
they must be wired with No. 12 wire and protected by a 20-ampere
overcurrent device."
But then it still depends on the inspector.
and Scott I don't think an inspector will be checking out your garage.
You're probably in compliance with all local codes.
as far as grounding is concerned, from;
http://www.codecheck.com/q_a_electric.htm
"If it is considered existing construction it may either be installed
with a 2 prong receptacle, replaced with an ungrounded GFCI or the code
makes provision to run a separate equipment ground wire(green #12 min.)
to bond the metal of the appliance to a well grounded cold water
system.."
Talking about frame grounding here.The OP has only #14/2 no ground at
all. He's one step up with the GFCI and if it's 6 feet from a sink it's
code. I think "Hmm water and possible electricity even if it's not near
a sink" There might be the possibility of false trips of the GFCI but I
haven't seen one yet.
I just pulled a motor out of a neighbors dishwasher. It was a GE the
fan on the pump motor had broken lose from the shaft and worn the
insulation on the front side of most of the field coils. Finally
wearing completely through them. Since the motor was mounted to the
frame of the washer the frame and the door was electrically hot when
the pump was running. Luckly none of their kids touched that when it
was running. I think a ground bonding wire should have been installed
here.


Scott Townsend wrote:
"The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an outlet on it."

Whoa... So you mean all of the Lighting Circuit outlets I just put in the
Garage for the Plug in Shop lights the Inspector is going to complain about?

I put in 3 outlets per circuit all branched from a Junction box..

hmmm...

Scott-

"spudnuty" wrote in message
ups.com...

waldowonka wrote:
Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white
jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the
only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its
ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the
GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the
recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.
On GFCIs that I've worked with (Leviaton, Cooper) one set of (2) brass
(y'know black-brass-burn your -ss) and chrome (usually) screws are
marked "Line". The other two are marked "Load" . Connect to the load to
connect other outlets that you want protected. Sounds like you
connected the in and out together. The GFCI won't like that.
All washers and dryers in the laundry room should be grounded to a
metallic cold water pipe. Use crimp screw connectors and #12 stranded
green wire. Find the grounding points on the back of the appliances.
As far as the grounded outlet is concerned, with the GFCI you'll be
closer to code.
The wire gauge would be written on the side of the cable and #14 is
rated at 15 A. The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an
outlet on it.
Richard

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:22:10 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:06:48 -0500, "Rush Limballes"
wrote:

14/2 is rated up to 30A, go ahead its cool.

Do you realize that news propagation is such that almost no one gets
every post? So they may not get the other posts that correct you.

This post has no humor at all.

Your stupid answers are getting too stupid and if sometime someone
believes you, you may kill him or his family. Are you 25 y.o. going
on 12?

wrote in message
groups.com...
I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1
14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?




Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

I found a table that says the allowable current for 14AWG (copper) is
15A. The table also shows 25A and 30A (with specific types of
insulation).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

I found a table that says the allowable current for 14AWG (copper) is
15A. The table also shows 25A and 30A (with specific types of
insulation).

The higher ratings can help with derating but 2005NEC 240.4D generally
limits #14 to 15A circuits.

bud--

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:59:07 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:22:10 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:06:48 -0500, "Rush Limballes"
wrote:

14/2 is rated up to 30A, go ahead its cool.

Do you realize that news propagation is such that almost no one gets
every post? So they may not get the other posts that correct you.

This post has no humor at all.

Your stupid answers are getting too stupid and if sometime someone
believes you, you may kill him or his family. Are you 25 y.o. going
on 12?

wrote in message
egroups.com...
I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1
14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?




Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

I found a table that says the allowable current for 14AWG (copper) is
15A. The table also shows 25A and 30A (with specific types of
insulation).

But you wouldn't have posted what you just did without including the
part in parentheses, would you? Because you're not irresponsible.

What you say is good to know, but the previous poster didn't say
anything about needing special insulation -- and I'll bet you any
money didn't know about the possibility -- and I'm sure the OP doesn't
have special insulation. Yet he was told "Go ahead it's cool".

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:52:48 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:59:07 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:22:10 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:06:48 -0500, "Rush Limballes"
wrote:

14/2 is rated up to 30A, go ahead its cool.

Do you realize that news propagation is such that almost no one gets
every post? So they may not get the other posts that correct you.

This post has no humor at all.

Your stupid answers are getting too stupid and if sometime someone
believes you, you may kill him or his family. Are you 25 y.o. going
on 12?

wrote in message
legroups.com...
I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine.
I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so
I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1
14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use
the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the
receptacle ?




Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

I found a table that says the allowable current for 14AWG (copper) is
15A. The table also shows 25A and 30A (with specific types of
insulation).

But you wouldn't have posted what you just did without including the
part in parentheses, would you? Because you're not irresponsible.

What you say is good to know, but the previous poster didn't say
anything about needing special insulation -- and I'll bet you any
money didn't know about the possibility -- and I'm sure the OP doesn't
have special insulation. Yet he was told "Go ahead it's cool".


I wonder how hot 14AWG wire would get with a constant 30A current.

This reminds me of a post here from a few years ago. Someone had added
a couple of receptacles in a garage. The circuit was wired with 18AWG
lamp cord in the attic. He wasn't using a welder on it, but whoever
bought that house might want to.

[snip]
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

In article . com, "spudnuty" wrote:

All washers and dryers in the laundry room should be grounded to a
metallic cold water pipe.

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Nothing should ever be grounded to a water pipe.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article . com, "spudnuty" wrote:

The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an
outlet on it.

Really? Please cite the article.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:09:00 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article . com, "spudnuty" wrote:

All washers and dryers in the laundry room should be grounded to a
metallic cold water pipe.

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Nothing should ever be grounded to a water pipe.

It used to be that they should. Is the change because of the possible
use of plastic pipe, or something else?

The 120V receptacle for my washer is grounded at the electrical panel.
The 240V receptacle for the dryer is not.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Another reason for no electrical grounding to pipes is
plumber safety. A plumber must disconnect pipes and not worry
about things electrical - things that are not part of his
trade. Any electrical connection for safety must be unique to
that electrical purpose. Code also calls for jumpers from
cold water to hot water pipes at hot water heater, and jumper
across water meter.

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:09:00 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:
Nothing should ever be grounded to a water pipe.

It used to be that they should. Is the change because of the possible
use of plastic pipe, or something else?

The 120V receptacle for my washer is grounded at the electrical panel.
The 240V receptacle for the dryer is not.

waldowonka wrote:
Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white
jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the
only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its
ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the
GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the
recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.

Yellow jackets on 12/2 (and blue ones on AFCI-protected 14/2) are a
newish convention that the cable makes have brought forth; I don't
think it's code (here at least) and at any rate it's only come out
within the past couple of years. So don't presume that your cable is 14
ga just because it's white; I have much white 12 ga in my house. Look
for the printing on the cable, or examine the conductors with a wire
gauge.

If it really is 14 ga, replace the breaker with a 15A one. If only your
washer is using the circuit, it shouldn't trip it. (If it does,
something's wrong and needs to be fixed; your 14 ga has been
overloaded. If the washer has a normal parallel-blade plug it should be
ok on a 15 A circuit.)

Your code may require a "dedicated" circuit for a washing machine, and
would prohibit two outlets on the circuit. However, I'm pretty sure
even a "dedicated" circuit can be a duplex outlet, so you could replace
the simplex outlet with a duplex and run the washer and the 'lectric
litterbox at the same time. I see no advantage to adding a second
receptacle; surely the litterbox would be happy on a good extension
cord if distance is the issue.

And you could certainly try making it a GFCI receptacle. Nuisance trips
from the washer are a possibility but wouldn't be the end of the world;
it's not like it's a freezer or a sump pump. If they're too frequent
then you'd probably want to revert it to a normal receptacle.
(Actually, I have my sump pump on a GFCI and I've had no nuisance trips
at all.)

(Were you trying to jumper across two hot terminal screws on a GFCI
receptacle? No, no, no. Those are the "in" and "out" connectors; the
former gets the power feed from upstream, and the latter are for
feeding downstream outlets that you want to provide GFCI protection to.
It is not at all the same as a normal duplex outlet in which each
outlet can be fed from its own terminals.)

Chip C
Toronto

wrote:
SNIP
CMP 5 decided in 1996 that the war was finally over and they now
require 4 wires to a range and dryer.

LOL
Beautiful...

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:07:36 -0500, wrote:

On 3 Jan 2006 11:34:03 -0800, "Chip C" wrote:

Your code may require a "dedicated" circuit for a washing machine, and
would prohibit two outlets on the circuit.


The NEC simply says you need a 20a circuit serving the laundry
receptacles. That could be the washer, iron and blower for a gas
dryer.

Mark says his dryer isn't grounded, that is the WWII exception that
allows dryer and ranges to be grounded by way of the neutral.


This house was probably built about 1969.

CMP 5 decided in 1996 that the war was finally over and they now
require 4 wires to a range and dryer.

I know someone who had an electric dryer installed about 2 years ago
(in a house with no 240V wiring, only 120V). That electrician used a
3-prong connection.

I have seen one 4-prong device. It was for the big ceramic kiln my
grandmother had installed about 1955. The elements could operate on
low or high (I suppose low meant 120V and high was 240V).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:50:48 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:00:06 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

I know someone who had an electric dryer installed about 2 years ago
(in a house with no 240V wiring, only 120V). That electrician used a
3-prong connection.


If it is only a 120v load there is only going to be 3 wires. One hot,
one neutral and one ground.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. BEFORE getting the dryer, the house
had only 120V service. The dryer itself required adding a 240V line.

You need the 4th if you have 120 and 240 volt loads in the same
appliance. Two hots a ground and a neutral. Dryers usually have 120v
timers, lights and blower motors with 240v heating elements. Ranges
use 120v lights and timers.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

According to Mark Lloyd :

I wonder how hot 14AWG wire would get with a constant 30A current.

Depends on how much thermal insulation there is.

The free air melt current of bare 18ga is 100A. Yet, the "safe"
current for insulated 18ga is around 5A.

Heavily buried in insulation, I'd expect a 14ga wire to melt with 30A
continuous. In free air, it'd be difficult to tell it was getting warm.

14ga at 30A will be generating about .9W/foot. It's all a matter
of heat dissipation.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:06:48 -0500, "Rush Limballes"
wrote:

14/2 is rated up to 30A, go ahead its cool.

When asking a question on Usenet, please remember always to view trhe
answers you get with a critical eye. The reply above is an excellent
example of the reason why.

Greg Guarino

14/2 is rated up to 30A, go ahead its cool.

When asking a question on Usenet, please remember always to view trhe
answers you get with a critical eye. The reply above is an excellent
example of the reason why. Greg Guarino

It's difficult to know whether you are hearing from an experienced
professional, or a fifteen-year-old brat with a little knowledge.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:26:03 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Mark Lloyd :

I wonder how hot 14AWG wire would get with a constant 30A current.

Depends on how much thermal insulation there is.

The free air melt current of bare 18ga is 100A. Yet, the "safe"
current for insulated 18ga is around 5A.

Heavily buried in insulation, I'd expect a 14ga wire to melt with 30A
continuous. In free air, it'd be difficult to tell it was getting warm.

14ga at 30A will be generating about .9W/foot. It's all a matter
of heat dissipation.

If a copper wire in free air melted, you'd have hot drops of molten
copper falling around. Some may even fall on you.

If a copper wire is well insulated, you get something very different.
Liquid copper becomes a superconductor (as long as it's contiguous,
and contained by plastic insulation). You can also obtain liquid state
breakers (open circuit if current falls below threshold), switches,
etc... at an electrical supply house (not available at Home Depot).
Operating your wiring that way will greatly reduce your utility bills.

Note that the above paragraph is meant to be read only by
knowledgeable, intelligent people who can determine it's state of
truth. No idiots please.

According to xxx :
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:26:03 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Mark Lloyd :

I wonder how hot 14AWG wire would get with a constant 30A current.

Depends on how much thermal insulation there is.

The free air melt current of bare 18ga is 100A. Yet, the "safe"
current for insulated 18ga is around 5A.

Heavily buried in insulation, I'd expect a 14ga wire to melt with 30A
continuous. In free air, it'd be difficult to tell it was getting warm.

14ga at 30A will be generating about .9W/foot. It's all a matter
of heat dissipation.

If a copper wire in free air melted, you'd have hot drops of molten
copper falling around. Some may even fall on you.

Well, yeah, if the overcurrent wasn't too high. If the overcurrent
was high enough, instead of melted copper droplets, you get copper
vapor and even plasma.

Not sure how that's relevant here tho.

If a copper wire is well insulated, you get something very different.
Liquid copper becomes a superconductor (as long as it's contiguous,
and contained by plastic insulation). You can also obtain liquid state
breakers (open circuit if current falls below threshold), switches,
etc... at an electrical supply house (not available at Home Depot).
Operating your wiring that way will greatly reduce your utility bills.

Good joke.

Note that the above paragraph is meant to be read only by
knowledgeable, intelligent people who can determine it's state of
truth.

Eg: it has no truth.

Copper doesn't appear on the super conductivity table at all. If it
ever becomes superconducting, it's going to be only at temperatures
infinitesimally close to absolute zero (-273C). It certainly ain't
at copper's melting point 1084.62C.

I don't know of any plastics that stay together at 1084C.

Let's say that all of the above was true. It'd only save you
a few percent of your electrical bill (in-house circuit losses
of a few percent).
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:12:54 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to xxx :
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:26:03 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Mark Lloyd :

I wonder how hot 14AWG wire would get with a constant 30A current.

Depends on how much thermal insulation there is.

The free air melt current of bare 18ga is 100A. Yet, the "safe"
current for insulated 18ga is around 5A.

Heavily buried in insulation, I'd expect a 14ga wire to melt with 30A
continuous. In free air, it'd be difficult to tell it was getting warm.

14ga at 30A will be generating about .9W/foot. It's all a matter
of heat dissipation.

If a copper wire in free air melted, you'd have hot drops of molten
copper falling around. Some may even fall on you.

Well, yeah, if the overcurrent wasn't too high. If the overcurrent
was high enough, instead of melted copper droplets, you get copper
vapor and even plasma.

Not sure how that's relevant here tho.

If a copper wire is well insulated, you get something very different.
Liquid copper becomes a superconductor (as long as it's contiguous,
and contained by plastic insulation). You can also obtain liquid state
breakers (open circuit if current falls below threshold), switches,
etc... at an electrical supply house (not available at Home Depot).
Operating your wiring that way will greatly reduce your utility bills.

Good joke.

Note that the above paragraph is meant to be read only by
knowledgeable, intelligent people who can determine it's state of
truth.

Eg: it has no truth.

Copper doesn't appear on the super conductivity table at all. If it
ever becomes superconducting, it's going to be only at temperatures
infinitesimally close to absolute zero (-273C). It certainly ain't
at copper's melting point 1084.62C.


I suppose the mention of superconductivity was included to make the
item's status as a joke more obvious.

I don't know of any plastics that stay together at 1084C.

Let's say that all of the above was true. It'd only save you
a few percent of your electrical bill (in-house circuit losses
of a few percent).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

you cant GFCI a washer, it WILL nuisance trip.