Hello -

I'm new to this group. There is a lot of good advice about flushing
and/or draining hot water heaters and I'm wondering if I need to do
this. It takes a long time (and a lot of wasted water) to get hot
water to the 2nd floor of my home (hot water heater is 2 levels below
in the basement). Would this situation improve if I were to flush
and/or drain the hot water heater? We've lived in this house for 3
years and I've never done it. The house is 28 years old, but the hot
water heater (a gas model) doesn't look nearly that old.

Thanks for any advice....

Mike

The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes.
You could look at a recirculating system.
You could look at an in-line flow actuated heater.
Both are expensive to install and give better comfort and performance.
TB

Mike wrote:
Hello -
I'm new to this group. There is a lot of good advice about flushing
and/or draining hot water heaters and I'm wondering if I need to do
this. It takes a long time (and a lot of wasted water) to get hot
water to the 2nd floor of my home (hot water heater is 2 levels below
in the basement). Would this situation improve if I were to flush
and/or drain the hot water heater? We've lived in this house for 3
years and I've never done it. The house is 28 years old, but the hot
water heater (a gas model) doesn't look nearly that old.
Thanks for any advice....
Mike

Someone recommended this to me. I haven't pulled the trigger yet but I think
I will.

www.ho****erlobster.com/

Dave

wrote in
ps.com:

The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes.
You could look at a recirculating system.
You could look at an in-line flow actuated heater.
Both are expensive to install and give better comfort and
performance. TB

Does the furnace need to run more to with a recirculating pump?

Thanks.

Collect the cold water in a bucket for flushing the toilet. Tom

The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes. You could look at
a recirculating system. You could look at an in-line flow
actuated heater. Both are expensive to install and give better
comfort and performance

Thanks for the info. I understand that the pipes between the heater
and the faucet cools off, it just seems that it takes a loooong time to
finally get hot water. I thought maybe doing some water heater
maintenance could help as it hasn't been done in several years.

Thanks again...

Mike

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:30:16 -0500, GaryM
wrote (with possible editing):

wrote in
ups.com:

The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes.
You could look at a recirculating system.
You could look at an in-line flow actuated heater.
Both are expensive to install and give better comfort and
performance. TB

Does the furnace need to run more to with a recirculating pump?

Thanks.

Not in this case. The OP said he had a water heater. THAT will run
more with recirculation, but it will cure his problem and slightly
reduce boiler/furnace usage.

We did a substantial addition to our house several years ago. To cure
the same problem, we went to the furthest point on the hot water line
and provided a pipe back to the boiler which also supplies hot water.
The boiler is a Buderus which incorporates a computer output to run a
recirculator. I set it to come on every 30 minutes during the day and
off at night. It is terrific - hot water out of the tap after less
than 3 seconds. If you have multiple water lines, you can add a
return to each and couple them with a tee before going to the recirc
pump. You can adjust by adding a valve to the shortest run, but it
really isn't necessary.

To do this, you need to be able to run a pipe to the end of the hot
water line. This is much easier to do with pex than copper. In a
cold climate (we're in northern NH) there is effectively no
significant increase in our oil bill, since our pipes are insulated
and besides, radiation from the hot water pipe would simply cut down
on boiler heating, more or less.
--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

Dave Miller wrote:
Mike wrote:

Hello -
I'm new to this group. There is a lot of good advice about flushing
and/or draining hot water heaters and I'm wondering if I need to do
this. It takes a long time (and a lot of wasted water) to get hot
water to the 2nd floor of my home (hot water heater is 2 levels below
in the basement). Would this situation improve if I were to flush
and/or drain the hot water heater? We've lived in this house for 3
years and I've never done it. The house is 28 years old, but the hot
water heater (a gas model) doesn't look nearly that old.
Thanks for any advice....
Mike


Someone recommended this to me. I haven't pulled the trigger yet but I think
I will.

www.ho****erlobster.com/

Dave



No doubt it will work *somewhat* better than nothing, but think
carefully about a few things first:

1. How much energy you will waste keeping the water in those pipes warm
all the time. Do the calculations for the additional heat loss from all
that uninsulated piping (For almost all of 24 hours every day.) and
you'll be shocked, just shocked, at the number of BTUs that adds up to,
all of which has to be supplied by whatever energy source you are paying
for to fuel your water heater.

2. If you want to draw a glass of "cold water", you'll have to run (and
waste) water while you wait for the warm water to empty out of the cold
water pipes.

3. 80 degree F water is likely gonna feel too cold to step under in a
shower, you'll still have to wait a while for the hotter water to reach
the shower. And, if you decide to try and shorten that wait by adjusting
the user adjustable set point higher in temperature you'll waste even
more energy every day.

*******

IMHO the device seems like a poor solution for a minor nuisance problem.

If I felt that waiting for warm water in my home was that big a problem,
I'd do it the right way by installing a thermosyphon system
incorporating a separate return pipe, with good insulation on both pipes.

Just my .02.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Mike wrote:
The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes. You could look at
a recirculating system. You could look at an in-line flow
actuated heater. Both are expensive to install and give better
comfort and performance

Thanks for the info. I understand that the pipes between the heater
and the faucet cools off, it just seems that it takes a loooong time to
finally get hot water. I thought maybe doing some water heater
maintenance could help as it hasn't been done in several years.

If I did my calculations right, 50' of 1/2" ID pipe contains about 1/2
gallon of water. So you have to run that out, PLUS, the new hot water
will cool as it travels through the cold pipe until the pipe warms up
enough. If your pipes are larger, obviously even more water will have
to run through.

Measure it, you're probably draining 3/4 of a gallon or more to get hot
water.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:27:49 GMT, L. M. Rappaport
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:30:16 -0500, GaryM
wrote (with possible editing):

wrote in
oups.com:

The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes.
You could look at a recirculating system.
You could look at an in-line flow actuated heater.
Both are expensive to install and give better comfort and
performance. TB

Does the furnace need to run more to with a recirculating pump?

Thanks.

Not in this case. The OP said he had a water heater. THAT will run
more with recirculation, but it will cure his problem and slightly
reduce boiler/furnace usage.

IN the winter. In the summer it will slightly increase AC usage, if
he uses the AC.

Mike, how long does the hot water take to get to your basement sink,
or the bathroom on the first floor immediately above hot water
heater. Or the kitchen. It's going to take longer the farther it
has to go. I insulated the ho****er pipes in the basement, but for a
guy who lives alone, and uses the water only every hour or two, it has
no effect.

Does water flow out of the faucet on t he third floor at a normal
pace? But doesn't at other hot water faucets. Then it's the pipes
not the HWH. But I'm sure the answer to this question was no.

I doubt very much there is anything wrong with your system. Flushing
out a bit of water from the HWH is recommended every so many years
for many HWH's but not to solve your problem. Which really is no
problem and is probably normal.

(Get a little plastic man in a plastic boat, put him in tthe hot water
heater and time how long it t akes for him to come out the 2nd floor
faucet. Or use a radioactive isotope. Take similar measurements at
other faucets and see if the time is proportional to distance. Or
just measure the time it takes to get hot.)

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Just curious: I know you can get point-of-use water heaters (basically
just conventional water heaters with a very tiny tank, 3 gallons or
less, usually electric), on-demand tankless water heaters for the whole
house, and even instant hot water dispensers.

Is there any low-output reasonably low cost point-of-use water
re-heaters that migth solve the OPs problem? Something that could raise
the temp a few degrees for just a single faucet. Since it would only
run until the hotter water from the basement arrived, even electric
would probably cost little to run.

Not that I'd pay good money to solve what I see as a minor annoyance,
but the OP may want think otherwise.

-Kevin

"1. How much energy you will waste keeping the water in those pipes
warm
all the time. Do the calculations for the additional heat loss from all

that uninsulated piping (For almost all of 24 hours every day.) and
you'll be shocked, just shocked, at the number of BTUs that adds up to,

all of which has to be supplied by whatever energy source you are
paying
for to fuel your water heater.

2. If you want to draw a glass of "cold water", you'll have to run (and

waste) water while you wait for the warm water to empty out of the cold

water pipes.

3. 80 degree F water is likely gonna feel too cold to step under in a
shower, you'll still have to wait a while for the hotter water to reach

the shower. And, if you decide to try and shorten that wait by
adjusting
the user adjustable set point higher in temperature you'll waste even
more energy every day.

IMHO the device seems like a poor solution for a minor nuisance
problem. "


All good points. Some of the claims made on the site are dubious at
best. Like that it saves energy. I would think it would actually use
more energy because as you pointed out, you now have a long pipeline of
hot water constantly circulating. I've seen other devices that I
believe would be better. Those devices are similar, but use a small
pump that is actuated by a push button or timer control to circulate
the water. That way it;s only circulated when called for or at certain
times of the day when you are likely to want hot water, ie early
morning or evenings. And by using a pump, they claim the hot water is
moved around faster than it would take by opening a faucet.

"Is there any low-output reasonably low cost point-of-use water
re-heaters that migth solve the OPs problem? Something that could raise

the temp a few degrees for just a single faucet. "

I've never seen one. I think the problem boils down to this. Someone
earleir pointed out that a reasonable estimate of the water in the
pipes could be a half gallon for the 10 seconds or so it takes to make
its way through the pipe. So, raising a half gallon of water from say
55 degree basement temp to say 120 or so in 10 seconds is on the order
of what kind of heater you would need. Think about how long even a big
240V burner on an electric stove takes to do that and it doesn't sound
practical.

"L. M. Rappaport" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:30:16 -0500, GaryM
wrote (with possible editing):

wrote in
oups.com:

The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes.
You could look at a recirculating system.
You could look at an in-line flow actuated heater.
Both are expensive to install and give better comfort and
performance. TB

Does the furnace need to run more to with a recirculating pump?

Thanks.

Not in this case. The OP said he had a water heater. THAT will run
more with recirculation, but it will cure his problem and slightly
reduce boiler/furnace usage.

We did a substantial addition to our house several years ago. To cure
the same problem, we went to the furthest point on the hot water line
and provided a pipe back to the boiler which also supplies hot water.
The boiler is a Buderus which incorporates a computer output to run a
recirculator. I set it to come on every 30 minutes during the day and
off at night. It is terrific - hot water out of the tap after less
than 3 seconds. If you have multiple water lines, you can add a
return to each and couple them with a tee before going to the recirc
pump. You can adjust by adding a valve to the shortest run, but it
really isn't necessary.

To do this, you need to be able to run a pipe to the end of the hot
water line. This is much easier to do with pex than copper. In a
cold climate (we're in northern NH) there is effectively no
significant increase in our oil bill, since our pipes are insulated
and besides, radiation from the hot water pipe would simply cut down
on boiler heating, more or less.
--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com


A simpler recirculation system cross connects the hot and cold lines under
the furthest sink. No power, pump or return lines are needed. The downside
is that you will now need to run the cold water just a little (not as much
as you did the hot) to purge the warm water to get cold. Not an issue when
warming up a shower or if you usually drink bottled water. The upside is
these systems are very inexpensive and can be installed in an hour.

Yahoogle on hot water recirculation and you will soon be overwhelmed by
information.

Any recirculation system will cause an increase in hot water heating charges
(gas or electric) but will substantially reduce the waste of water.
Insulating the hot pipes will make a big difference in the efficiency any of
these systems.

While it is not practical to change your pipes, a smaller pipe for the hot
water (1/2" instead of 3/4") would substantially reduce the volume of water
standing in the pipe which needs to be purged before the hot gets to you.

"Mike" wrote in message
ups.com...
The originally hot water sits in two stories of pipe and cools.
You have to move that much out of the pipes. You could look at
a recirculating system. You could look at an in-line flow
actuated heater. Both are expensive to install and give better
comfort and performance

Thanks for the info. I understand that the pipes between the heater
and the faucet cools off, it just seems that it takes a loooong time to
finally get hot water. I thought maybe doing some water heater
maintenance could help as it hasn't been done in several years.

Thanks again...

Mike

No amount of HW heater maintenance will reduce the volume of water in the
pipes. Increasing the pressure would reduce the time it takes to get hot
but not the volume of water wasted. Maintenence will increase the lifetime
of the heater but not its performance sending water upstairs.

"kevin" wrote in message
ups.com...
Just curious: I know you can get point-of-use water heaters (basically
just conventional water heaters with a very tiny tank, 3 gallons or
less, usually electric), on-demand tankless water heaters for the whole
house, and even instant hot water dispensers.

Is there any low-output reasonably low cost point-of-use water
re-heaters that migth solve the OPs problem? Something that could raise
the temp a few degrees for just a single faucet. Since it would only
run until the hotter water from the basement arrived, even electric
would probably cost little to run.

Not that I'd pay good money to solve what I see as a minor annoyance,
but the OP may want think otherwise.

-Kevin


I considered putting a 15gal electric HW heater near the bathroom in series
with the output of a 30gal gas heater in the garage. initially the water
used would be heated by the local electric heater and cold standing water in
the pipes would be mixed within and reheated. Eventually hot from the main
tank would be filling the smaller tank and it would power down.

I didn't like the space this system would take (plus it will still loose
heat) so I will eventually install an on demand recirculation pump and
return line. Instead of operating on a timer, I would manually prime the
hot pipe with a buttom just before I use the water. I think this is a good
compromise between saving water and power. No sense in heating my
crawlspace all day while I am at work. Alternatively, I could wire the pump
power to the bathroom light fixture for passive, manual operation. You
don't need much for a return line, 3/8" copper tube or PEX would be
acceptable and would reduce the number of soldered fittings.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:10:44 GMT, "PipeDown"
wrote (with possible editing):

....snip

A simpler recirculation system cross connects the hot and cold lines under
the furthest sink. No power, pump or return lines are needed. The downside
is that you will now need to run the cold water just a little (not as much
as you did the hot) to purge the warm water to get cold. Not an issue when
warming up a shower or if you usually drink bottled water. The upside is
these systems are very inexpensive and can be installed in an hour.

Yahoogle on hot water recirculation and you will soon be overwhelmed by
information.

Any recirculation system will cause an increase in hot water heating charges
(gas or electric) but will substantially reduce the waste of water.
Insulating the hot pipes will make a big difference in the efficiency any of
these systems.

While it is not practical to change your pipes, a smaller pipe for the hot
water (1/2" instead of 3/4") would substantially reduce the volume of water
standing in the pipe which needs to be purged before the hot gets to you.

And yet another solution uses the electric on-demand water heaters
which install just under the sink. Thermostatically controlled, they
only operate until the regular hot water gets to them. The
disadvantage, of course, is the operating cost, but that might not be
an issue if electricity is inexpensive where you live.
--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

"Mike" wrote:

Hello -

I'm new to this group. There is a lot of good advice about flushing
and/or draining hot water heaters and I'm wondering if I need to do
this. It takes a long time (and a lot of wasted water) to get hot
water to the 2nd floor of my home (hot water heater is 2 levels below
in the basement). Would this situation improve if I were to flush
and/or drain the hot water heater? We've lived in this house for 3
years and I've never done it. The house is 28 years old, but the hot
water heater (a gas model) doesn't look nearly that old.

Thanks for any advice....

Mike

I dunno if this helps but when we moved to an old house (40 yrs old) warm water
would come only after running the tap for some time. Soon after the water would
go cold. Two storey house also.

One day I noticed that the washing maschine was using warm water (it's OK to do
that). I changed it to use cold water. From that day water has come warmer much
sooner and stays warm longer. I haven't changed anything in the boiler. I even
changed the washing maschine to use warm water again and sure enough taps turned
cold as before.

You case is probably "Your mileage may vary" -situation though.

"One day I noticed that the washing maschine was using warm water (it's
OK to do
that). I changed it to use cold water. From that day water has come
warmer much
sooner and stays warm longer. I haven't changed anything in the boiler.
I even
changed the washing maschine to use warm water again and sure enough
taps turned
cold as before. "

Are you saying that this is was the cause and fix for taking a long
time for hot water whether or not the washing machine was actually
running? If so, that makes no sense.

You could reduce the problem somewhat very cheaply AND save energy by
insulating the outbound pipe on the water heater. You can get
fiberglass strip specially made for the purpose for a few dollars from
a home improvement/hardware store. Use latex gloves to avoid itchiness,
and keep in place with bag or cable ties, not tape. A slightly snug
wrap is best. Go at least to the wall, going further is your choice but
will be difficult and give you a diminishing rate of return.
I also use the leftover fiberglass to insulate the incoming pipe, an
amazing amount of heat leaks out that way and wrapping it preheats the
incoming water, saving you energy.
I also agree with collecting the start water in a bucket and using it
to flush, these low-flush toilets don't use enough water to get the job
done anyway.-Jitney

This was not a problem 28 years ago because flow restrictors weren't used.
Today they are, therefore you have to let the water run longer to purge the
cold water from the hot water lines. Generally, a bath tub spout does not
have a flow restrictor so, just for fun, try opening that hot water valve
and notice how long it takes for hot water to appear.

"Mike" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello -

I'm new to this group. There is a lot of good advice about flushing
and/or draining hot water heaters and I'm wondering if I need to do
this. It takes a long time (and a lot of wasted water) to get hot
water to the 2nd floor of my home (hot water heater is 2 levels below
in the basement). Would this situation improve if I were to flush
and/or drain the hot water heater? We've lived in this house for 3
years and I've never done it. The house is 28 years old, but the hot
water heater (a gas model) doesn't look nearly that old.

Thanks for any advice....

Mike

"You could reduce the problem somewhat very cheaply AND save energy by
insulating the outbound pipe on the water heater."

This will help if the hot water has been recently used. However, if it
hasn't been used for awhile, which frequently happens in places like an
upstairs master bath, it will hardly make any difference at all.

"You can get
fiberglass strip specially made for the purpose for a few dollars from
a home improvement/hardware store. Use latex gloves to avoid itchiness,
"

Fiberglass strips? They sell a foam insulation tube type of product
that comes in sizes specifically made to wrap pipe.

"I also use the leftover fiberglass to insulate the incoming pipe, an
amazing amount of heat leaks out that way and wrapping it preheats the
incoming water, saving you energy. "

Now this is really confusing. Insulation can't preheat anything. And
what amazing amount of heat is leaking out from the incoming water?
Most water coming into homes is from underground, so it's 50 deg or so,
not hot.

" I also agree with collecting the start water in a bucket and using it

to flush,"

Hard to see what that accomplishes. Most places, water is cheap enough
that screwing around to save a half gallon of cold water sure ain't
worth it, cause it costs a tiny fraction of a cent.

bump.

wrote:

"One day I noticed that the washing maschine was using warm water (it's
OK to do
that). I changed it to use cold water. From that day water has come
warmer much
sooner and stays warm longer. I haven't changed anything in the boiler.
I even
changed the washing maschine to use warm water again and sure enough
taps turned
cold as before. "

Are you saying that this is was the cause and fix for taking a long
time for hot water whether or not the washing machine was actually
running? If so, that makes no sense.

The problem went away. I was rather puzzled since the washing machine was not
allways on and taking water. It could be also that the boiler had colder water
and up to that day had not warmed up completely.

This will help if the hot water has been recently used. However, if it

hasn't been used for awhile, which frequently happens in places like an

upstairs master bath, it will hardly make any difference at all.

Try it, it works.

Fiberglass strips? They sell a foam insulation tube type of product
that comes in sizes specifically made to wrap pipe.

Thermoplastic. (Softens with heat), worse for adhesive type.

Now this is really confusing. Insulation can't preheat anything. And

what amazing amount of heat is leaking out from the incoming water?
Most water coming into homes is from underground, so it's 50 deg or so,

not hot.

Again, try it. It wouldn't be confusing if you had studied high school
physics. Metal pipe is a major heat sink,
insulating it will cause it to transfer heat away from the heat source
less efficiently, thereby saving energy. When I did it,
I could feel the heated pipe farther back behind the incoming pipe and
farther beyond the outgoing pipe.

" I also agree with collecting the start water in a bucket and using it



to flush,"


Hard to see what that accomplishes. Most places, water is cheap enough

that screwing around to save a half gallon of cold water sure ain't
worth it, cause it costs a tiny fraction of a cent.

If you lived in a drought prone area, as many do, you would not have
such a wastrel attitude
(or worse, maybe you would.) But it also helps overcome the problem of
low water flush
toilets not completing the job.
-Jitney