I live in a townhouse development in PA and today our neighbor had his
roof done. Most of us have had our roofs done around here and the
various contractors *always* put tarp down so they could slide the
removed shingles safely into the yard. The roofers that were out today
were throwing the shingles whereever and our yard was completely
covered (and yes, I know I should have taken pictures right away but I
hadn't had coffee yet!). Anyway, they damaged a $250 collector's
edition birdbath (some very noticable scratches and a chip in the resin
which means that it can no longer stay outside because it will now
crack in the winter when it freezes). The owner of the company came
out and immediately told my mom that our home owner's insurance would
cover it to which, of course, we said that it was his responsibility
and that our insurance had no need to even be contacted. He became
very beligerant and yelled to the point where the owner of the house (a
very nice guy) came over and tried to settle him down. The roofer said
he would do nothing until we contacted our insurance co. and they came
out and gave an estimate and so on. I also had given the roofer a copy
of the catalogue with the birdbath in it so he would have a physical
copy proving how much it cost. He said after our insurance got an
estimate he would send it to his insurance company. We insisted that
was not how it worked and he just yelled and said we weren't going to
listen so he didn't care, threw the paper on the ground and then yelled
he'd been a roofer for 35 years, he knows how it works... to which my
mom responded she didn't know how he'd been in business with that
attitude to which he replied that was it, we weren't getting anything
because how dare she say that. I said I was going to contact the
police as he stormed off, he said go ahead. He then told the owner he
would give us a check for $250 if we gave him the birdbath so he could
smash it in the middle of the street. We didn't agree to that
obviously. Basically this owner had the "I'm a man and women are
stupid" attitude and boy, did he mess with the wrong women. I looked
up the BBB and the company is listed and has had 12 complaints against
them in the last 36 months and 8 in the last 12 months - no details
were given however.

I called our insurance company and she said that absolutely not would
our homeowner's insurance be involved. Roofers are insured for things
like this and it is completely his responsibilty. I also contacted a
engineering company who does construction that I sometimes work for and
the owner of that company told me to call the local Building Inspector
and file a police report about his yelling at us to at least have
things on record.

My question is... what are my options? What avenues can I take this
through without it costing a fortune in legal fees (which I am sure
we'd win). It really came down to the principle of the thing and then
his complete lack of care nor respect for either one of us. He is the
owner of this company - if this is how he runs the business people need
to know what he is all about.

Thank you in advance.

"Flyersfan1013" wrote in message
ups.com...
I live in a townhouse development in PA and today our neighbor had his
roof done. Most of us have had our roofs done around here and the
various contractors *always* put tarp down so they could slide the
removed shingles safely into the yard. The roofers that were out today
were throwing the shingles whereever and our yard was completely
covered (and yes, I know I should have taken pictures right away but I
hadn't had coffee yet!). Anyway, they damaged a $250 collector's
edition birdbath (some very noticable scratches and a chip in the resin
which means that it can no longer stay outside because it will now
crack in the winter when it freezes). The owner of the company came
out and immediately told my mom that our home owner's insurance would
cover it to which, of course, we said that it was his responsibility
and that our insurance had no need to even be contacted. He became
very beligerant and yelled to the point where the owner of the house (a
very nice guy) came over and tried to settle him down. The roofer said
he would do nothing until we contacted our insurance co. and they came
out and gave an estimate and so on. I also had given the roofer a copy
of the catalogue with the birdbath in it so he would have a physical
copy proving how much it cost. He said after our insurance got an
estimate he would send it to his insurance company. We insisted that
was not how it worked and he just yelled and said we weren't going to
listen so he didn't care, threw the paper on the ground and then yelled
he'd been a roofer for 35 years, he knows how it works... to which my
mom responded she didn't know how he'd been in business with that
attitude to which he replied that was it, we weren't getting anything
because how dare she say that. I said I was going to contact the
police as he stormed off, he said go ahead. He then told the owner he
would give us a check for $250 if we gave him the birdbath so he could
smash it in the middle of the street. We didn't agree to that
obviously. Basically this owner had the "I'm a man and women are
stupid" attitude and boy, did he mess with the wrong women. I looked
up the BBB and the company is listed and has had 12 complaints against
them in the last 36 months and 8 in the last 12 months - no details
were given however.

I called our insurance company and she said that absolutely not would
our homeowner's insurance be involved. Roofers are insured for things
like this and it is completely his responsibilty. I also contacted a
engineering company who does construction that I sometimes work for and
the owner of that company told me to call the local Building Inspector
and file a police report about his yelling at us to at least have
things on record.

My question is... what are my options? What avenues can I take this
through without it costing a fortune in legal fees (which I am sure
we'd win). It really came down to the principle of the thing and then
his complete lack of care nor respect for either one of us. He is the
owner of this company - if this is how he runs the business people need
to know what he is all about.

Thank you in advance.


The contractor is an obvious butthead. Nicely and politely explain to your
neighbor that in fact he is responsible for the damage since the shingles
came from his roof and the roofer is his agent. Ask him to give you what you
feel if fair recompense-- and tell him to deduct it from the what he pays
the roofer or work it out with him. Take yourself out of dealing with the
roofer.

If your neighbor won't pay, call Tony Soprano ;-)

Patrick

Sounds to me like even if he is insured, he has a deductible that's higher
than the cost of your bird bath. I would've taken the check, cashed it
immediately, and let the asshole smash your old one in the street. Go sweep
it up and be done with it. And, be sure to report him to the BBB.

Let me get this straight. The roofer put a few scratches into a
birdbath that you say cost $250 when it was new by tossing shingles.
He offered to give you the full $250 provided you give him the
birdbath and you refused. Sure he shouldn't have made a mess on your
property. But assuming he cleaned it up and offered you full
replacement cost for the birdbath, exactly what do you expect? Talk
about being unrealistic.

And why didn't you just go over and talk to the neighbor when it first
became obvious debris was being deposited in your yard instead of
watching it happen?

What are your options now? You can sue the roofer and the property
owner in small claims court. That will waste a lot of time. And if
your very lucky, you'll get a judgement, most likely only against the
roofer, for the depreciated value of the birdbath, which will likely be
a lot less than $250. Then you'll find out you can't collect
anything because the roofer is judgement proof.

My question is... what are my options? What avenues can I take this
through without it costing a fortune in legal fees (which I am sure
we'd win). It really came down to the principle of the thing and then
his complete lack of care nor respect for either one of us. He is the
owner of this company - if this is how he runs the business people need


You can either sue, or you can not sue. Those are your two options.
(Next time, check the BBB BEFORE you hire someone, not after you've
got a problem.)

A couple of avenues to try. Not necessarily one at a time.
The roofer has a license, yes? Contact the licensing authority with your
complaint.
If he is insured find out with whom and you contact them directly with claim
No insurance? Two problems here.
He is probably required to by the terms of his license and if he has no
insurance you need to have a heart to heart talk with your neighbor who may
have unknowingly acquired the financial responsibility.
Do you have a local TV station that has a consumer affairs reporter? They
might have a story out of it.

You get the idea.

Also $250 is not the right amount. Did you pay for shipping and taxes?
Deprecated value is a crock. You want to be made whole again.
If he wants to take the old one after he has settled to your satisfaction,
he has a right to it.
If he breaks it in the street, call the local law enforcement folks and file
a littering complaint.
Or if he dumps it on the side of the road or other inappropriate place,
there is yet another complaint to whoever enforces anti-dumping laws.

Charlie


wrote in message
ups.com...
Let me get this straight. The roofer put a few scratches into a
birdbath that you say cost $250 when it was new by tossing shingles.
He offered to give you the full $250 provided you give him the
birdbath and you refused. Sure he shouldn't have made a mess on your
property. But assuming he cleaned it up and offered you full
replacement cost for the birdbath, exactly what do you expect? Talk
about being unrealistic.

And why didn't you just go over and talk to the neighbor when it first
became obvious debris was being deposited in your yard instead of
watching it happen?

What are your options now? You can sue the roofer and the property
owner in small claims court. That will waste a lot of time. And if
your very lucky, you'll get a judgement, most likely only against the
roofer, for the depreciated value of the birdbath, which will likely be
a lot less than $250. Then you'll find out you can't collect
anything because the roofer is judgement proof.

Goedjn wrote:

My question is... what are my options? What avenues can I take this
through without it costing a fortune in legal fees (which I am sure
we'd win). It really came down to the principle of the thing and then
his complete lack of care nor respect for either one of us. He is the
owner of this company - if this is how he runs the business people need



You can either sue, or you can not sue. Those are your two options.
(Next time, check the BBB BEFORE you hire someone, not after you've
got a problem.)

And just where did she say *she* hired them, Goedjn?

Based on her tale, the birdbath was damaged by someone she had no
bsiness relationship with who encroached on her property by tossing
stuff off a roof in a manner that let it fall there.

My vote is cast in favor of asking the neighbors to replace that damaged
birdbath. If they have any class at all they should do that at once and
then try and recover what they paid her from that cretin roofer. If they
won't shoulder that responsibility then they're not worthy of continuing
a relationship with and it'd be worth the little bit of time it takes to
bring a small claims action against them that might help teach them a
lesson in neighborly responsibility.

There's always a chance that the neighbor's homeowner's insurance
liability coverage might pay and subrogate the claim on the roofer.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

My vote is cast in favor of asking the neighbors to replace that damaged
birdbath. If they have any class at all they should do that at once and
then try and recover what they paid her from that cretin roofer. If they
won't shoulder that responsibility then they're not worthy of continuing
a relationship with and it'd be worth the little bit of time it takes to
bring a small claims action against them that might help teach them a
lesson in neighborly responsibility.

It's true that if you ask them to, a classy neighbor would cover the
dammage. But if you want to BE the classy neighbor, instead of
have one, you won't because it's not their fault. Go straight after
the person who caused the dammage, and skip the middleman. No point
in making MORE victims.

You turned down 250$ for a resin birdbath, I see those sold for 20-35$
everywhere. Sure he was a jerk and it was a bad situation but im sure
your " " "Collectors Edition priced" " ' Prized Resin plastic
limited edition, numbered, hand signed birdbath made him angry, we after
all have not heard his side. For 250 maybe Marble not plastic. You did
say it was scratched not smashed, right. No wonder he wants to smash it,
why should he let you have it. Take the 250 and get 10 more at Wall Mart

On 17 Nov 2005 13:07:17 -0800, "Flyersfan1013"
wrote:

I live in a townhouse development in PA and today our neighbor had his
roof done. Most of us have had our roofs done around here and the
various contractors *always* put tarp down so they could slide the
removed shingles safely into the yard. The roofers that were out today
were throwing the shingles whereever and our yard was completely
covered (and yes, I know I should have taken pictures right away but I
hadn't had coffee yet!). Anyway, they damaged a $250 collector's
edition birdbath (some very noticable scratches and a chip in the resin
which means that it can no longer stay outside because it will now
crack in the winter when it freezes). The owner of the company came
out and immediately told my mom that our home owner's insurance would
cover it to which, of course, we said that it was his responsibility
and that our insurance had no need to even be contacted. He became
very beligerant and yelled to the point where the owner of the house (a
very nice guy) came over and tried to settle him down. The roofer said
he would do nothing until we contacted our insurance co. and they came
out and gave an estimate and so on. I also had given the roofer a copy
of the catalogue with the birdbath in it so he would have a physical
copy proving how much it cost. He said after our insurance got an
estimate he would send it to his insurance company. We insisted that
was not how it worked and he just yelled and said we weren't going to
listen so he didn't care, threw the paper on the ground and then yelled
he'd been a roofer for 35 years, he knows how it works... to which my
mom responded she didn't know how he'd been in business with that
attitude to which he replied that was it, we weren't getting anything
because how dare she say that. I said I was going to contact the
police as he stormed off, he said go ahead. He then told the owner he
would give us a check for $250 if we gave him the birdbath so he could
smash it in the middle of the street. We didn't agree to that
obviously. Basically this owner had the "I'm a man and women are
stupid" attitude and boy, did he mess with the wrong women. I looked
up the BBB and the company is listed and has had 12 complaints against
them in the last 36 months and 8 in the last 12 months - no details
were given however.

I called our insurance company and she said that absolutely not would
our homeowner's insurance be involved. Roofers are insured for things
like this and it is completely his responsibilty. I also contacted a
engineering company who does construction that I sometimes work for and
the owner of that company told me to call the local Building Inspector
and file a police report about his yelling at us to at least have
things on record.

My question is... what are my options? What avenues can I take this
through without it costing a fortune in legal fees (which I am sure
we'd win). It really came down to the principle of the thing and then
his complete lack of care nor respect for either one of us. He is the
owner of this company - if this is how he runs the business people need
to know what he is all about.

Thank you in advance.



Your insurance should have no bearing on the damage. This guy thought
he could hussle sp a couple of women. Mom knows best, do what she
tells you grin. Now this thug would be singing another song and
dance if the material from his site had injured your family, or pets.
The neighbors deductible is higher than the actual damage. It was
suggested for the neighbor to have the money deducted from the final
job and be paid by the neighbor.

Machiavellian - be a prick/prickess! Smack the guy, moms can do that.

Oren
"My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland
and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore
excused from saving Universes."

"Goedjn" wrote in message (Next time, check the BBB BEFORE you hire
someone, not after you've got a problem.)

Reading comprehension problem?
Sue
Minocqua, WI
Yamaha '00 VStar 650 FOR SALE
'04 TW200 (mud = fun)
Kawasaki '95 Vulcan 1500 V#15937
Kawasaki '01 Ninja 500R (soon to be mine, I hope)

"Do what you want and say what you feel because those that mind, don't
matter and those that matter, don't mind". ~Dr. Seuss

Goedjn wrote:
My vote is cast in favor of asking the neighbors to replace that damaged
birdbath. If they have any class at all they should do that at once and
then try and recover what they paid her from that cretin roofer. If they
won't shoulder that responsibility then they're not worthy of continuing
a relationship with and it'd be worth the little bit of time it takes to
bring a small claims action against them that might help teach them a
lesson in neighborly responsibility.


It's true that if you ask them to, a classy neighbor would cover the
dammage. But if you want to BE the classy neighbor, instead of
have one, you won't because it's not their fault. Go straight after
the person who caused the dammage, and skip the middleman. No point
in making MORE victims.

Hi,
Roofer must have an insurance to cover this kind of accident.
Any decent trade people have such insurance.
Tony

First off: To the original Poster, please place breaks in your
paragraphs. You post goes on as one long drool:

But I do sympathise with you. This is very typical how contractors
work. There's one boss, and basically a bunch of ignorant fools who
don't even have a 4th grade education that work for him. (Did any of
them even speak english? I strongly doubt it)

And,.... they couldn't give a rat's ass about neighbor's property, or
damage to it. They only know how to go through the motions, and
basically do what thry're told.

I've seen this before, and have had this happen to my own property by a
number of contractors in Chicago, where it seems, they hire the scum of
the earth to do work. (But this happens all over) The contractors hire
whomever they can that will gladly accept being paid poverty wages.
The contractor's main concern? The Bottom Line!

Who cleaned the mess? As you said, you messed up by not taking
pictures. A cleaning busines should have been called out to clean the
mess they created, and that bill should've been shoved down the
contractor's throat, with the bill for the BirdBath.

Yep, he sure does lnow how it works, being sued, taken to small claims
court, not showing up, extensions, etc., etc. This Piece of **** has
been through it before.

What people like this really need, is a shotgun stuck up their ass.
That would change his tune in a hurry. The system has it set up that
****ers like this can get away with whatever they please. I myself HATE
worms like this.

If he did offer the $250, why didn't you take it?
Let him supposedly smash the old one in the street. While he's doing
so, call the police on him. Bottom line is "**** Him".
He doesn't deserve any better treatment.

If he now refuses to pay the $250, let your neighbor know that your very
unhappy with the whole mess, and that you are taking either, or both
him, or his contractor to small claims court, and suing. Tell him you
have a lawyer, and his name is "Sue"! best of luck, Mark

Flyersfan1013 wrote:
I live in a townhouse development in PA and today our neighbor had his
roof done. Most of us have had our roofs done around here and the
various contractors *always* put tarp down so they could slide the
removed shingles safely into the yard. The roofers that were out today
were throwing the shingles whereever and our yard was completely

How close are the two homes?

I sympathize with your distress, but I can't get over the $250 collector
edition birdbath. Does it have Elvis' face in the bottom? You leave
it out in winter?

Why didn't you move it? Neither the roofer nor the neighbor had the
right to come onto your property, it seems. Don't know how shingles
could chip a resin birdbath, but anything is possible. Any chance it
could have already been chipped and this is all for naught? Lawn mower
nicked it?

Right, where can you buy a 250$ Resin birdbath, post a link please, I
bought 2 lounge chairs and 6 regular Resin chairs for 60 dollars last
month. Or is it gold plated. Id want to smash it to after paying 250. No
wonder he was mad you probably started it with your 250$ BS.

"Right, where can you buy a 250$ Resin birdbath, post a link please, I
bought 2 lounge chairs and 6 regular Resin chairs for 60 dollars last
month. Or is it gold plated. Id want to smash it to after paying 250.
No
wonder he was mad you probably started it with your 250$ BS. "


I agree with you. I can't believe everyone is cheering the OP on. The
contractor was likely wrong for allowing this to happen, but we've only
heard one side of the story. And from what I've heard, the contractor
made a very reasonable offer. The bird bath was damaged, not
destroyed. Yet, the contractor offered the full $250 that the
homeowner demanded to replace it, on the spot. What the hell does
this person want?

If you deal with the contractor's insurance company or sue in court,
you will only get the DEPRECIATED value of the birdbath. And unless
the birdbath is brand new, that sure isn't $250. If it's 3 years old,
you'd probably get $150. This is like totalling a 3 year old car. You
aren't awarded the original cost of the car, only it's value just
before the damage to put you back in the position you were in before
the damage. And a court isn't going to give you the present value of
the property and let you keep the damaged property too. That becomes
the property of the defendant. If you want to keep the damaged
property, then your award will be less.

The OP also apparently sat around and watched roofing debris be tossed
in their yard for some time, instead of simply walking over to talk to
the neighbor and/or contractor. I have a hard time taking the word of
someone who not only does this, but then asks for full replacement cost
of something with some scratchs or chips, is offered it on the spot,
but then refuses and wants exactly what? I'd still like to know the
answer to that question!

Pat wrote:
They probably bought it for $25 on the bargain table and now want to screw
him out of $250 plus keep the bird bath which has only superficial damage.



Agreed. We only one side story from the OP. I can understand it if the
contractor scratched their expensive living room furniture. But for an
outside birdbath? OP complained the bad attitude of the contractor. But
did OP talked to him nicely to begin with?

There was a news story a while ago that an old couple complained about
bad pratice in the insurance industry. The couple had been with the
insurance company for many years and the company droped them withour
valid reason. I really sympathized with the elders, until read that the
reporter talked to the company. Turned out that the couple made repeated
insurance complains of $300 or so for storen money. The couple filed
many police reports claiming that they lost their purses with cash in it
on their porch, deck etc.

You never really know who is telling the truth.

It probably wasnt even her bird bath, it was the neighbors. She just saw
her free utility payment and bottle of Gin.

Guess Who wrote:
Pat wrote:

They probably bought it for $25 on the bargain table and now want to
screw him out of $250 plus keep the bird bath which has only
superficial damage.

Hope I didn't start a free-for-all, as the suggestion was not that the
OP was lying. Just wondering, from experience, whether someone jumped
to conclusion. My birdbath was about $30, and I sure couldn't tell
anyone without checking whether it is chipped, cracked, etc. Riding
mowers will chip concrete, I know. It is difficult to imagine stuff
coming off a roof that would make a noticeable new chip and scratches.
unless they were tossing concrete tiles.

She said painted Resin. Resin is the hardest thing I have heard to
paint and have it stick, Krylon makes a spray for it. I was at Sherwin
Williams the other day asking about painting my Resin funiture since I
dont want it white. I asked the salesman what product he had and Krylon
was his only suggestion, above their commercial line and the 40$
exterior that sticks to anything. So I dought the story, as Ive never
seen commercialy painted Resin or a 250 $ Resin birdbath, Marble yes,
Resin No, Id say a Troll.