Two Residential HVAC bids: Request for comments

Greetings,

I belong to a little brick bungalow in the midwest, built in
'54, poured-concrete foundation. Existing Furnace/AC is 21
years-old, will soon roll over and die.

I have two bids for new Carrier equipment:
1.) lo-end - 10 SEER AC, single-stage furnace.
2.) mid-level - 13 SEER AC, 2-stage furnace) stuff.

Would appreciate any/all comments on -anything- having to
do with the equipment, its cost, terms, etc.

Here's the guts of the lo-end bid:

PROPOSAL INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CARRIER EQUIPMENT:
38CKC024-3 (2 TON) -10 SEER Condensing unit
58ST A070-12 (70K BTU) - 80% Gas Furnace
CK5AXA024014 - Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil

DUCTWORK:
New Plenum
Mod. Present Drop

CONTROLS & ELECTRICAL:
Connect to Existing Electric for Condensing Unit
Connect to Existing Electric for Furnace

PIPING:
New Copper Line Set - Length: 50'
Safety Gas Shut-Off Valve at Furnace
Connect to Existing Gas Line
New Plastic Condensation Drain Pipe to Sewer

MISCELLANEOUS:
Clean up and Haul A way All Debris o

STANDARD WARRANTIES: EXTENDED WARRANTIES:
Compressor: 5yrs Parts l.yr Labor
Condensing Unit: 5yrs ALL
Parts lyr ALL Labor
Heat Exchanger: 2yrs Parts l.yr Labor
Furnace: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$3.334.00

PAYMENT TERMS: 1/3 DUE UPON ACCEPTANCE. BALANCE DUE UPON
COMPLETION

Date: 10-27-05 Date: _ THIS PROPOSAL IS VALID FOR 30 DAYS
FROM OFFER DATE (REBATE VALIDITY MAY VARY)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the guts of the mid-level bid:

PROPOSAL INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CARRIER EQUIPMENT:
38TXA024-3 (2 TON) - 13 SEER Condensing unit - PURON
58CTA070-12 (70K BTU) - 80% 2 Stage Gas Furnace
CK5AXA024014 - Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil

DUCTWORK, CONTROLS & ELECTRICAL, PIPING, MISCELLANEOUS:
(same as lo-end bid)

STANDARD WARRANTIES: EXTENDED WARRANTIES:
Compressor: 10yrs Parts 5yrs Labor
Condensing Unit: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor
Heat Exchanger: 20yrs Parts lyr Labor
Furnace: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$4.684.00

Less: $300 Carrier Rebate: Validitv of rebate reauires
acceptance of this contract bv November 11.2005.
installation ofsvstems bv November 25. 2005. and that
customer submits rebate claim to Carrier bv December 9.
2005.

(Other details same as lo-end bid)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Much Thanks,
Puddin'
--
************************************************** ****
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
************************************************** ****;

I would get the *most* efficient furnace and A/C if at all possible. (Who
knows how high these energy rates will be several years from now?)

Here is a Carrier furnace with 96.6% AFUE...
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3736,00.html

And a Carrier 18 SEER A/C...
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3966,00.html

Depends upon where in the midwest. I would think a 10 SEER A/C would
be fine, but would want a more efficient furnace. I'm assuming that
you live someplace where you rally don't use A/C all that much.

Well I only use my air conditioning two months out of the year and bought
the most efficient unit I could find 5 years ago. Doing this has saved me
quite a bit of money!

Same with all my appliances - all "Energy Star" most efficient I can buy. My
electric bill was $29 last month. It was $75 a month 6 years ago. Not bad
factoring in the higher cost of electricity these days...


wrote in message
Depends upon where in the midwest. I would think a 10 SEER A/C would
be fine, but would want a more efficient furnace. I'm assuming that
you live someplace where you rally don't use A/C all that much.

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
Two Residential HVAC bids: Request for comments

Greetings,

I belong to a little brick bungalow in the midwest, built in
'54, poured-concrete foundation. Existing Furnace/AC is 21
years-old, will soon roll over and die.

I have two bids for new Carrier equipment:
1.) lo-end - 10 SEER AC, single-stage furnace.
2.) mid-level - 13 SEER AC, 2-stage furnace) stuff.

Would appreciate any/all comments on -anything- having to
do with the equipment, its cost, terms, etc.

Here's the guts of the lo-end bid:

PROPOSAL INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CARRIER EQUIPMENT:
38CKC024-3 (2 TON) -10 SEER Condensing unit
58ST A070-12 (70K BTU) - 80% Gas Furnace
CK5AXA024014 - Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil

DUCTWORK:
New Plenum
Mod. Present Drop

CONTROLS & ELECTRICAL:
Connect to Existing Electric for Condensing Unit
Connect to Existing Electric for Furnace

PIPING:
New Copper Line Set - Length: 50'
Safety Gas Shut-Off Valve at Furnace
Connect to Existing Gas Line
New Plastic Condensation Drain Pipe to Sewer

MISCELLANEOUS:
Clean up and Haul A way All Debris o

STANDARD WARRANTIES: EXTENDED WARRANTIES:
Compressor: 5yrs Parts l.yr Labor
Condensing Unit: 5yrs ALL
Parts lyr ALL Labor
Heat Exchanger: 2yrs Parts l.yr Labor
Furnace: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$3.334.00

PAYMENT TERMS: 1/3 DUE UPON ACCEPTANCE. BALANCE DUE UPON
COMPLETION

Date: 10-27-05 Date: _ THIS PROPOSAL IS VALID FOR 30 DAYS
FROM OFFER DATE (REBATE VALIDITY MAY VARY)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the guts of the mid-level bid:

PROPOSAL INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CARRIER EQUIPMENT:
38TXA024-3 (2 TON) - 13 SEER Condensing unit - PURON
58CTA070-12 (70K BTU) - 80% 2 Stage Gas Furnace
CK5AXA024014 - Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil

DUCTWORK, CONTROLS & ELECTRICAL, PIPING, MISCELLANEOUS:
(same as lo-end bid)

STANDARD WARRANTIES: EXTENDED WARRANTIES:
Compressor: 10yrs Parts 5yrs Labor
Condensing Unit: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor
Heat Exchanger: 20yrs Parts lyr Labor
Furnace: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$4.684.00

Less: $300 Carrier Rebate: Validitv of rebate reauires
acceptance of this contract bv November 11.2005.
installation ofsvstems bv November 25. 2005. and that
customer submits rebate claim to Carrier bv December 9.
2005.

(Other details same as lo-end bid)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Much Thanks,
Puddin'
--
************************************************** ****
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
************************************************** ****;

This is Turtle.

The ideal here is to beef up the type cooling or heating equipment you use the
most . You being the Mid west -- i would say go up a 93+% afue rated furnace and
stay down at a 10 or 12 seer on the cooling. Here in Louisiana you would get a
standard 80% AFUE furnace and a 16 seer cooling unit.

Think about what you use the most of and beef it up.

TURTLE

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Well I only use my air conditioning two months out of the year and bought
the most efficient unit I could find 5 years ago. Doing this has saved me
quite a bit of money!

Same with all my appliances - all "Energy Star" most efficient I can buy.
My electric bill was $29 last month. It was $75 a month 6 years ago. Not
bad factoring in the higher cost of electricity these days...



How much money did you spend to save money??!

There are to schools of thought on this
1. buy the most efficient appliances, furnace, AC, whatever.
2. Buy lower to mid efficiency units.

In #1 you pay a bunch up front, less in the end. #2 you pay little up from,
more in the end.
Either way it pretty much balances itself out. either you pay the HVAC, or
appliance company, or you pay the power utility. Do the math and the numbers
are so close in the end it makes little difference which way to go.

I just replaced my furnace. For most people this would have been a $3500
install in my area. About $1000 less for a slightly less efficient model,
(94% Vs., 95% fully modulating burner, variable speed blower) I hope to save
a couple a hundred a year on gas and electricity, so 5 years to break even.
If I move out of the house in less than five years I lost money.

A 14-16 SEER AC is probably 3 times the price of a 10 SEER. In this area
many people use their AC just a few days a year. Pretty crazy to go high
SEER on a AC you don't use. Pay back will never be seen as buy the time you
save enough money to make the difference in price, it is past time to
replace the equipment.

I work for a HVAC company and buy my equipment for cost. I have a 10 SEER
AC. I have thought about replacing it with a higher SEER unit, but even at
cost for the equipment, and not counting my labor time to install, it won't
pay off in time. If you have to pay full price and have it done you are much
better to just pay the utility.
Greg

One other thing to throw in the equation is whether there are improvements
you can make to reduce heating or cooling load such as more or better
insulation, better windows and doors, etc. and the costs vs. savings of
those.

"Greg O" wrote in message

How much money did you spend to save money??!


Well actually I have a third school of thought which is not specifically
related to HVAC. It is that I will spend almost any amount to save money
where I can, if it will reduce my cost of living in the future. I'm always
looking for ways to save on my monthly expenses.

I basically got tired of renting and my expenses going up, up, up! So I did
something about it...

Examples:
I bought a house and refinanced to a lower interest rate and my mortgage
payments are now about $580 a month including taxes and insurance.

Installed Energy Star windows in house.

Installed Time of Use electric meter (lower rates at night) and timers on
things like water heater, freezer, etc.

I bought "Energy Star" energy saving appliances.

I just installed a woodstove for heating.

Bought a small high gas mileage car.

Etc, etc., etc.

So basically I'm saving a *lot* of money from money saving things I have
done in the past. So I can use *those* savings to save additional money on
something else now.

The way I look at it, I'm saving $600 a month on my mortgage payment *alone*
because I made a good deal and refinanced. So that money is available to
save on other things. Then I spend that on things which will reduce my
expenses further. Over time I have even more savings. It kind of snowballs
with time. So my cost of living is actually going down, not up!

Therefore I would have no problem paying 3x for a more efficient A/C unit
because the money to pay for it would have come from somewhere else I have
saved money. I eat it on some things and do quite well on others. But
overall is what counts to me.

I plan to live in my house for the rest of my life, so it will be nice to
reduce my cost of living as much as possible. But I'm already doing pretty
good right now. And who knows what the cost of energy will be 5 years from
now?

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Therefore I would have no problem paying 3x for a more efficient A/C unit
because the money to pay for it would have come from somewhere else I have
saved money. I eat it on some things and do quite well on others. But
overall is what counts to me.

I plan to live in my house for the rest of my life, so it will be nice to
reduce my cost of living as much as possible. But I'm already doing pretty
good right now. And who knows what the cost of energy will be 5 years from
now?



I fully understand what you are saying, but spending 3X for an AC may be a
bad choice. If the AC costs you $2000 more, but you only save $50 a year,
where is the savings?
If you use the AC often, southern states, you may make the difference in 5
years. Where you live plays a big part in it.
Greg

"The way I look at it, I'm saving $600 a month on my mortgage payment
*alone*
because I made a good deal and refinanced.

Therefore I would have no problem paying 3x for a more efficient A/C
unit
because the money to pay for it would have come from somewhere else I
have
saved money"


This is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. As others
have pointed out, if the more efficient unit only saves you $25 a
month, and you typically only use the A/C two months a year, you may
never recover the extra upfront cost of the high efficiency unit.
Factor in the time value of money and it gets even worse and takes
longer to break even. For example, say the high efficiency A/C cost
$1000 more. IF you put that into a bond yielding 5%, you'd earn $50 in
interest each year, just about offsetting the savings, plus you'd still
have the $1000. Then consider the possibility that the new high cost
unit could go bad after it's out of warranty, say at 10 years. Now you
may wind up replacing the whole thing earlier than the expected 15-20
years, putting you further in the hole.

Paying 3X for something has to be justified on the basis of the
economics of that particular item. Whether the money came from savings
on something else or your paycheck is irrelevant.

Thanks for various responses. Here is some additional
info.

I am strapped for $. Out of work for years.

The little house is well-insulated and relatively air-tight.
It is only 1-floor (800 sq. ft.). Full basement is neither
heated nor cooled.

I am in St. Louis, MO. and use AC very little. Never run it
in the day. Use my whole-house fan whenever possible. Run
AC mostly in the evening in Jul./Aug. when the outside temp
is over 90 degrees.

Nat. gas bill in coldest months (Dec., Jan.) averaged about
$75 last season. It was near to being an average winter.

Personal priorities for HVAC system a
1.) reliability/repairability
2.) efficiency relative to cost
3.) cost

There is an obvious trade-off between up-front
cost and fuel/power costs over the years. I'm
still trying to sort it out ...

Super-efficient/expensive furnaces are more complex,
potentially less reliable/repairable? New AC's
using R-410A are a less-than-proven technology in
practical terms?

I have done OK with a single-stage furnace for 20+ years.
What is the advantage of a 2-stage? The claimed furnace
efficiency on the 2 bids are equal (80%).

My 21-year-old Carrier mid-price AC has had a small
leak for about 18 years. Is there any way to avoid such
insanities when specifying/purchasing a new system?

Re energy costs: the whole industry (whole world?) is quick
becoming "One Big Enron"? Or is that just what they want us to
believe? Elec. costs are expected to go straight to hell:
nat. gas costs soon to follow?

My personal impression of the HVAC industry is that it is,
to a material extent, "Out-Of-Control". They keep adding
expensive bells-and- whistles which may or may-not be cost-
effective depending on usage and other considerations. It's
difficult for me to take what they (DOE, HVAC industry
folks) say at "face value". Potential boondoggles for
the consumer are inherent?

As I've taken only 1 bid to date, I'm curious as to how
the contract prices might compare to similar equipment.

Thanks,
Puddin'

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 02:00:57 GMT, Puddin' Man
wrote:

Two Residential HVAC bids: Request for comments

Greetings,

I belong to a little brick bungalow in the midwest, built in
'54, poured-concrete foundation. Existing Furnace/AC is 21
years-old, will soon roll over and die.

I have two bids for new Carrier equipment:
1.) lo-end - 10 SEER AC, single-stage furnace.
2.) mid-level - 13 SEER AC, 2-stage furnace) stuff.

Would appreciate any/all comments on -anything- having to
do with the equipment, its cost, terms, etc.

Here's the guts of the lo-end bid:

PROPOSAL INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CARRIER EQUIPMENT:
38CKC024-3 (2 TON) -10 SEER Condensing unit
58ST A070-12 (70K BTU) - 80% Gas Furnace
CK5AXA024014 - Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil

DUCTWORK:
New Plenum
Mod. Present Drop

CONTROLS & ELECTRICAL:
Connect to Existing Electric for Condensing Unit
Connect to Existing Electric for Furnace

PIPING:
New Copper Line Set - Length: 50'
Safety Gas Shut-Off Valve at Furnace
Connect to Existing Gas Line
New Plastic Condensation Drain Pipe to Sewer

MISCELLANEOUS:
Clean up and Haul A way All Debris o

STANDARD WARRANTIES: EXTENDED WARRANTIES:
Compressor: 5yrs Parts l.yr Labor
Condensing Unit: 5yrs ALL
Parts lyr ALL Labor
Heat Exchanger: 2yrs Parts l.yr Labor
Furnace: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$3.334.00

PAYMENT TERMS: 1/3 DUE UPON ACCEPTANCE. BALANCE DUE UPON
COMPLETION

Date: 10-27-05 Date: _ THIS PROPOSAL IS VALID FOR 30 DAYS
FROM OFFER DATE (REBATE VALIDITY MAY VARY)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the guts of the mid-level bid:

PROPOSAL INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CARRIER EQUIPMENT:
38TXA024-3 (2 TON) - 13 SEER Condensing unit - PURON
58CTA070-12 (70K BTU) - 80% 2 Stage Gas Furnace
CK5AXA024014 - Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil

DUCTWORK, CONTROLS & ELECTRICAL, PIPING, MISCELLANEOUS:
(same as lo-end bid)

STANDARD WARRANTIES: EXTENDED WARRANTIES:
Compressor: 10yrs Parts 5yrs Labor
Condensing Unit: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor
Heat Exchanger: 20yrs Parts lyr Labor
Furnace: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$4.684.00

Less: $300 Carrier Rebate: Validitv of rebate reauires
acceptance of this contract bv November 11.2005.
installation ofsvstems bv November 25. 2005. and that
customer submits rebate claim to Carrier bv December 9.
2005.

(Other details same as lo-end bid)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Much Thanks,
Puddin'
--
************************************************** ****
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
************************************************** ****;

Steve Kraus wrote:

One other thing to throw in the equation is whether there are improvements
you can make to reduce the heating or cooling load such as more or better
insulation, better windows and doors, etc. and the costs vs. savings of
those.


Right-on Steve, that should always be done first, and will deliver the
best investment PayBack!

Contractors ought to follow these practices:
http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute....m%20Efficiency

- Darrell

--
SERVICING OIL FURNACES
http://www.udarrell.com/air_conditio...n caster.html

"Bill" wrote in message
...
"Greg O" wrote in message

How much money did you spend to save money??!


Well actually I have a third school of thought which is not specifically
related to HVAC. It is that I will spend almost any amount to save money
where I can, if it will reduce my cost of living in the future. I'm always
looking for ways to save on my monthly expenses.

I basically got tired of renting and my expenses going up, up, up! So I
did
something about it...

Examples:
I bought a house and refinanced to a lower interest rate and my mortgage
payments are now about $580 a month including taxes and insurance.

Installed Energy Star windows in house.

Installed Time of Use electric meter (lower rates at night) and timers on
things like water heater, freezer, etc.


A timer on a freezer?

WH or HVAC system I can see, but on a freezer?

"Puddin' Man" wrote in
message
...
Thanks for various responses. Here is some
additional
info.

I am strapped for $. Out of work for years.

Look at Goodman for better warranties. A 10 year
parts and labor warranty costs only $100. per unit
and the coil takes the warranty of the condenser it
is installed with. Of couse I only know about 14
seer or better equipment as I am in NJ where the
utility companies give rebates. And for only 800
sqare feet, is the sizing correct?


www.goodmanmfg.com

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
Thanks for various responses. Here is some additional
info.

I am strapped for $. Out of work for years.

The little house is well-insulated and relatively air-tight.
It is only 1-floor (800 sq. ft.). Full basement is neither
heated nor cooled.

I am in St. Louis, MO. and use AC very little. Never run it
in the day. Use my whole-house fan whenever possible. Run
AC mostly in the evening in Jul./Aug. when the outside temp
is over 90 degrees.

Nat. gas bill in coldest months (Dec., Jan.) averaged about
$75 last season. It was near to being an average winter.

Personal priorities for HVAC system a
1.) reliability/repairability
2.) efficiency relative to cost
3.) cost

There is an obvious trade-off between up-front
cost and fuel/power costs over the years. I'm
still trying to sort it out ...

Super-efficient/expensive furnaces are more complex,
potentially less reliable/repairable? New AC's
using R-410A are a less-than-proven technology in
practical terms?

I have done OK with a single-stage furnace for 20+ years.
What is the advantage of a 2-stage? The claimed furnace
efficiency on the 2 bids are equal (80%).

My 21-year-old Carrier mid-price AC has had a small
leak for about 18 years. Is there any way to avoid such
insanities when specifying/purchasing a new system?

Re energy costs: the whole industry (whole world?) is quick
becoming "One Big Enron"? Or is that just what they want us to
believe? Elec. costs are expected to go straight to hell:
nat. gas costs soon to follow?

My personal impression of the HVAC industry is that it is,
to a material extent, "Out-Of-Control". They keep adding
expensive bells-and- whistles which may or may-not be cost-
effective depending on usage and other considerations. It's
difficult for me to take what they (DOE, HVAC industry
folks) say at "face value". Potential boondoggles for
the consumer are inherent?

As I've taken only 1 bid to date, I'm curious as to how
the contract prices might compare to similar equipment.

Thanks,
Puddin'



An 800 square foot house will not use much gas to heat it as you have seen.
The differences between a 80% and 90% as far as reliability is zip. Most all
80% furnaces are as complicated as the standard 90% units. All have ventor
motors, pressure switches and control boards. I would consider a 90% furnace
in your case as it gets cold enough to use it allot. A two stage 80% may
save you a bit on your gas bill as it will run more on first stage in warmer
weather and cycle less.
As far as AC I would look at either a 10 or 12 SEER if you run it as little
as you say.
Get more bids!
Greg

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

And for only 800
sqare feet, is the sizing correct?


Good point! I missed it completely!!
800 square feet? Unless it heats like a screen porch 40,000 BTU for heat,
and 1-1/2 tons for cooling would be plenty. The 70K and 2 ton AC is too big
at a guess, twice to big if it is as tight as the OP claims. He will see
more energy savings with properly sized equipment.
I live in a 930 square foot rambler and I have a 60,000 BTU furnace. I would
have put in a 40,000 BTU, but the smallest modulating furnace that Ruud has
is a 60K. It will mod down to 24K BTU.
Greg

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

Installed Time of Use electric meter (lower rates at night) and timers on
things like water heater, freezer, etc.


A timer on a freezer?

WH or HVAC system I can see, but on a freezer?



Lower rates at night he claims, so just run the freezer at night!?
Greg

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:51:03 -0400, "Kathy"
wrote:

"Puddin' Man" wrote in
message
.. .
Thanks for various responses. Here is some
additional
info.

I am strapped for $. Out of work for years.

Look at Goodman for better warranties.

It's wierd. I know Goodman/Janitrol is huge and
important in the HVAC industry ...

When I look in the St. Louis yellow pages, I don't
see Goodman or Janitrol. When I ask for local dealers
from Goodman's site, I get all kinds of hits for dealers
that carry other major brands.

It's kinda like the locals don't wanna advertise Goodman.
Maybe Goodman doesn't offer ad subsidies like the others ...

A 10 year
parts and labor warranty costs only $100. per unit

Given good solid eqpt./install, it's really the second 10
years I'm worried about.

and the coil takes the warranty of the condenser it
is installed with.

The evap. coil can be warrantied for, say, 10 years? That
part sounds interesting. A leaky A-coil can be like a
plague.

Of couse I only know about 14
seer or better equipment as I am in NJ where the
utility companies give rebates. And for only 800
sqare feet, is the sizing correct?

The new stuff is comparably rated to the old. The old furnace
was OK. The old AC was a little slow to cool, but they
say it's better to chug along than to cycle on/off a lot ...

www.goodmanmfg.com

I took a peek, didn't find anything save the heat exchanger
warranty.

Cheers,
Puddin'
--
************************************************** ****
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
************************************************** ****;

"HeatMan" wrote in message

A timer on a freezer?

WH or HVAC system I can see, but on a freezer?


Yes, with a "time of use" electric meter, electricity is cheaper from 10pm
to 6am. And my freezer will stay frozen for several days without
electricity. So I have it on a timer and only run it during off-peak hours.

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
Thanks for various responses. Here is some additional
info.

I am strapped for $. Out of work for years.


You might do well to get a window air conditioner at Walmart - not very
expensive like $150 or so. I would stick it in your bedroom window. Leave it
on with door open during days and it should keep the whole house cool. Then
close door at night and just cool the bedroom.

Then just get a new central heating system. Could save you a lot of $$ both
with the install and on your electric bill during the summer.

PuddinMan,

I live in Myrtle Beach, SC in a 2000 square foot house and I have a
2-ton heat pump with 4 KW strip heat to do the whole thing. Sounds
like your contractor oversized the equipment, but it all depends on
your insulation and windows. Ask what kind of load calculation he did.
Should be Manual J, 7th or 8th edition.

Based on your utility bills, I would go with 12 to 13 SEER and 90%
efficient furnace. 96% furnace will probably not pay for itself with
your climate and utility rate. Same with over 13 SEER. It all depends
on your situation.

That being said, I will probably replace my 17 year old heat pump
within the next year with a 2 stage model rated at 18.6 SEER and 9.5
HSPF. But I am a dealer and I can afford it and it needs replaced
anyway. The cost difference should pay for itself in 3-5 years.
Anything over 8 years payback should usually be avoided.

Goodman/Janitrol does not hold up that well here. Generally lasts 5
years less than Lennox/Trane/Carrier/American Standard.

Getting a Variable Speed indoor blower will dehumidify better, improve
efficiency, be quieter, and work better with the new high efficiency/
High restriction pleated & electrostatic air filters.

Hope this helps.

Stretch

"Puddin' Man" wrote

It's wierd. I know Goodman/Janitrol is huge and
important in the HVAC industry ...

Supposedly, they sell more than anyone else in the industry.


When I look in the St. Louis yellow pages, I don't
see Goodman or Janitrol. When I ask for local dealers
from Goodman's site, I get all kinds of hits for dealers
that carry other major brands.

It's kinda like the locals don't wanna advertise Goodman.
Maybe Goodman doesn't offer ad subsidies like the others ...

A 10 year
parts and labor warranty costs only $100. per unit

Other manufacturers offer extended warranties also. Check them out to before
you decide.

I know it's been said a hundred times, but:

Who installs the unit is 95% of the job. Not the brand name.

It's just me, but I would personally never own a Goodman........

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$3.334.00

PAYMENT TERMS: 1/3 DUE UPON ACCEPTANCE. BALANCE DUE UPON
COMPLETION

Date: 10-27-05 Date: _ THIS PROPOSAL IS VALID FOR 30 DAYS
FROM OFFER DATE (REBATE VALIDITY MAY VARY)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the guts of the mid-level bid:

PROPOSAL INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CARRIER EQUIPMENT:
38TXA024-3 (2 TON) - 13 SEER Condensing unit - PURON
58CTA070-12 (70K BTU) - 80% 2 Stage Gas Furnace
CK5AXA024014 - Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil

DUCTWORK, CONTROLS & ELECTRICAL, PIPING, MISCELLANEOUS:
(same as lo-end bid)

STANDARD WARRANTIES: EXTENDED WARRANTIES:
Compressor: 10yrs Parts 5yrs Labor
Condensing Unit: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor
Heat Exchanger: 20yrs Parts lyr Labor
Furnace: 5yrs ALL Parts lyr ALL Labor

We hereby propose to furnish labor and materials, complete
in accordance with the above specifications and details for
the sum of:

$4.684.00

Less: $300 Carrier Rebate: Validitv of rebate reauires
acceptance of this contract bv November 11.2005.
installation ofsvstems bv November 25. 2005. and that
customer submits rebate claim to Carrier bv December 9.
2005.

(Other details same as lo-end bid)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Much Thanks,
Puddin'


If your money is tight I would put electric heaters where needed and
use the gas furnace for the coldest weather. Electric is not cheap but
you get 100%.

I also would not give any contractor any money until they showed up
with some goods. Then only enough to prove you intend to pay up when
done. Do not let them get ahead of you or you have no power. If you
find a contractor that won't do that they keep looking, that guy
probably won't be around for service in years to come again anyhow.

Tom

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 00:17:29 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:


"Puddin' Man" wrote

It's wierd. I know Goodman/Janitrol is huge and
important in the HVAC industry ...

Supposedly, they sell more than anyone else in the industry.


When I look in the St. Louis yellow pages, I don't
see Goodman or Janitrol. When I ask for local dealers
from Goodman's site, I get all kinds of hits for dealers
that carry other major brands.

It's kinda like the locals don't wanna advertise Goodman.
Maybe Goodman doesn't offer ad subsidies like the others ...

A 10 year
parts and labor warranty costs only $100. per unit

Other manufacturers offer extended warranties also. Check them out to before
you decide.

First I look at the standard warranties (when I can find 'em).

Then I look at the x-warranties. In general, they are limited
to 10 years?

Given I don't buy junk and get a good install, I'm
primarily worried about the second 10 years, not the 1st.
But I'd welcome a 10-yr warranty on a potentially leaky
A-coil (if reasonably priced).

I know it's been said a hundred times, but:

Who installs the unit is 95% of the job. Not the brand name.

I'll bite. How do I find the good one(s)? Folks that
installed the old stuff (AC leaked for 18 years) were
well known and established ("since '46"). They quoted
the current bids. What do I do? Go to the BBB with a
handful of local names and find the one with the
fewest complaints?

It's just me, but I would personally never own a Goodman........

I'm strongly inclined to concur.

Thanks,
Puddin'
--
************************************************** ****
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
************************************************** ****;

"Puddin' Man" wrote


I'll bite. How do I find the good one(s)? Folks that
installed the old stuff (AC leaked for 18 years) were
well known and established ("since '46"). They quoted
the current bids. What do I do? Go to the BBB with a
handful of local names and find the one with the
fewest complaints?

I know it sounds like a cliche, but...

"Ask your friends and neighbors...."

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:55:03 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:


"Puddin' Man" wrote


I'll bite. How do I find the good one(s)? Folks that
installed the old stuff (AC leaked for 18 years) were
well known and established ("since '46"). They quoted
the current bids. What do I do? Go to the BBB with a
handful of local names and find the one with the
fewest complaints?

I know it sounds like a cliche, but...

"Ask your friends and neighbors...."

Well, I will.

But I'm thinkin' maybe I should also get a weegee board,
a crystal ball, skin/cook/eat a black cat, etc. Maybe a
mojo hand would hep' ...

Cheers,
Puddin'
--
************************************************** ****
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
************************************************** ****;

"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:55:03 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:


"Puddin' Man" wrote


I'll bite. How do I find the good one(s)? Folks that
installed the old stuff (AC leaked for 18 years) were
well known and established ("since '46"). They quoted
the current bids. What do I do? Go to the BBB with a
handful of local names and find the one with the
fewest complaints?

I know it sounds like a cliche, but...

"Ask your friends and neighbors...."

Well, I will.

But I'm thinkin' maybe I should also get a weegee board,
a crystal ball, skin/cook/eat a black cat, etc. Maybe a
mojo hand would hep' ...

Not sure about Mojo, but I know Howard Johnson's got his HoJo workin'......

;-]

..

I plan to live in my house for the rest of my life, so it will be nice to
reduce my cost of living as much as possible. But I'm already doing pretty
good right now. And who knows what the cost of energy will be 5 years from
now?

=============
Points well taken....BUT the dollar you saved yesterday or 5 years ago
is worth less then the dollar you spend today... You do have to
factor that into your equations also...

Spending 3 times more today to save a little 10 years from now may
not always "save" you money ...

Bob G.

FWIW, my SE Michigan home is small like yours, 760 sq ft; my Kenmore
ac unit is 1.5 ton and is more than enough. It's been three years now,
not a peep of trouble (knock on wood). Gets humidity down to 35%, even
when stat is set at 78F. It is very quiet; paid a bit extra for a
screw-type piston because it was outside my bedroom window. Well worth
it.

I had bad experience with a Janitrol ac at last house, 1500 sq ft/1.5
ton. It got noisy and needed charged every summer, yet nobody could
find a leak or problem. And it couldn't keep up during the hottest
days (95+), it would run almost constantly. Neighbors there bought a
Janitrol too, it died after six years.

No way will I ever consider a Janitrol again. Junk.


On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 23:33:22 GMT, Puddin' Man
wrote:
It's wierd. I know Goodman/Janitrol is huge and
important in the HVAC industry ...

When I look in the St. Louis yellow pages, I don't
see Goodman or Janitrol. When I ask for local dealers
from Goodman's site, I get all kinds of hits for dealers
that carry other major brands.

It's kinda like the locals don't wanna advertise Goodman.
Maybe Goodman doesn't offer ad subsidies like the others ...

"LJ" wrote in message
...
I had bad experience with a Janitrol ac at last
house, 1500 sq ft/1.5
ton. It got noisy and needed charged every
summer, yet nobody could
find a leak or problem. And it couldn't keep up
during the hottest
days (95+), it would run almost constantly.
Neighbors there bought a
Janitrol too, it died after six years.

No way will I ever consider a Janitrol again.
Junk.

You couldn't if you wanted to. They don't make
Janitrol anymore- haven't for a few years.



On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 23:33:22 GMT, Puddin' Man

wrote:
It's wierd. I know Goodman/Janitrol is huge and
important in the HVAC industry ...

Janitrol _is_ no more.


When I look in the St. Louis yellow pages, I
don't
see Goodman or Janitrol. When I ask for local
dealers
from Goodman's site, I get all kinds of hits for
dealers
that carry other major brands.

It's kinda like the locals don't wanna advertise
Goodman.
Maybe Goodman doesn't offer ad subsidies like
the others ...


They don't. They just offer the lowest price to
start with.

Janitrol was made by Goodman, who also made Goodman and GMC(Goodman
Manufacturing Co). All three brands were the same unit. They retired
the Janitrol brand, but still make Goodman and GMC. If you buy a
Goodman, you will be getting a Janitrol by another name.

Stretch

"Stretch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Janitrol was made by Goodman, who also made
Goodman and GMC(Goodman
Manufacturing Co). All three brands were the
same unit. They retired
the Janitrol brand, but still make Goodman and
GMC. If you buy a
Goodman, you will be getting a Janitrol by
another name.

Stretch


Thats like saying Ruud ahd Rheem are the same thing
or Bryant and Carrier or whatever. There's High end
and low end. Janitrol was low end and they quit
making them. I know you already know that. And what
kind is GMC? Aren't they trucks? Tomorrow I'm going
to ask the distributor what GMC is.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...



Thats like saying Ruud ahd Rheem are the same thing
or Bryant and Carrier or whatever.

Most of them are!! Ruud and Rheem build identical units, The only difference
between them are the first letter of the model number! I installed a AC
condenser the other day that came with Weather King labels on it, and Ruud
and Rheem labels in the package!
Greg

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:03:59 GMT, Puddin' Man
wrote:

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:55:03 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
wrote:


"Puddin' Man" wrote


I'll bite. How do I find the good one(s)? Folks that
installed the old stuff (AC leaked for 18 years) were
well known and established ("since '46"). They quoted
the current bids. What do I do? Go to the BBB with a
handful of local names and find the one with the
fewest complaints?

I know it sounds like a cliche, but...

"Ask your friends and neighbors...."

Well, I will.

But I'm thinkin' maybe I should also get a weegee board,
a crystal ball, skin/cook/eat a black cat, etc. Maybe a
mojo hand would hep' ...

From what I understand, the minimum SEER residential units they can
sell you will be 13 after the first of the year. A tax credit for
energy efficiency improvements is slated for 2006 also.
May replace my 21 year old York electric-gas package next spring....
--
Mr.E