Hi,

I am wondering if there are any adverse effects (like accelerated rust
build up) associated with deliberately not venting some radiators in a
hot water system. I would like to do this in order to decrease their
heat output without having to install valves.


Thanks for any help.

RUsirius

Cast iron doesn't rust


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I'm guessing you have a one pipe steam system. If you 'don't vent' the
radiator (and it is a one-pipe system), it won't heat.

They do make adjustable vents for one pipe system. Ask at the Wall.
http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFApp=2


wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,

I am wondering if there are any adverse effects (like accelerated rust
build up) associated with deliberately not venting some radiators in a
hot water system. I would like to do this in order to decrease their
heat output without having to install valves.


Thanks for any help.

RUsirius

I am wondering if there are any adverse effects (like accelerated rust
build up) associated with deliberately not venting some radiators in a
hot water system. I would like to do this in order to decrease their
heat output without having to install valves.


Get someone to knit a cover for the ones that heat too much.

It is a hot water system, not a steam system.

There are 3 circuits attached to the furnace. I would assume that the
other radiators in the same circuit would still work even a one or two
are not vented?!

So, there is no oxidation taking place in a cast iron radiator?

I think that not venting a couple of radiators is a more "elegant"
solution then knitting a cover for them. :-)

Thanks for the responses.

RUsirius

You keep saying vented, steam radiator systems are vented not hw heat.
There are air bleed valves on Hw radiators to remove air , but once air
is removed they are closed, and kept closed or water would pour out.
Don't the radiators have shut off valves. Do you mean turning off the
water at the boiler, that is circulation and some is needed so pipes do
not freeze. What you state makes no sense.

You've confused me. You have a hot water system and there are vents on the
radiators? Vents that automatically open and close?

wrote in message
ups.com...
It is a hot water system, not a steam system.

There are 3 circuits attached to the furnace. I would assume that the
other radiators in the same circuit would still work even a one or two
are not vented?!


Three circuits, also known as zones?

So, there is no oxidation taking place in a cast iron radiator?


There shouldn't be. If your system is constantly taking in fresh,
(dissolved) oxygen-laden water, the will be corrosion. I'd worry more about
the boiler than the radiators.

I think that not venting a couple of radiators is a more "elegant"
solution then knitting a cover for them. :-)


Agreed.... TRV's would work better than knitted covers.

Thanks for the responses.


Yer Welcome.

RUsirius


YesIAm

You may want to go to the Wall.
http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFApp=2

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
You keep saying vented, steam radiator systems are vented not hw heat.
There are air bleed valves on Hw radiators to remove air , but once air
is removed they are closed, and kept closed or water would pour out.
Don't the radiators have shut off valves. Do you mean turning off the
water at the boiler, that is circulation and some is needed so pipes do
not freeze. What you state makes no sense.


Mark, it depends on how his system is set up. If he has monoflow fittings,
he can shut off individual rads. If it's a series circuit, he can't without
effecting the entire loop/zone.

Sorry for the confusion, I meant: NOT TO BLEED the hot water radiator
in order to keep an air bubble in the radiator. This should prevent the
water from circulating properly in the radiator. But does this mean
that all the radiators that follow in that zone will also not heat up
properly?

My other concern is that this way there will be permanently air and
some water in the radiator and thus I am afraid there might be more
chance for oxidation.


The radiators only have simple shut off valves and are as far as I can
tell in a series circuit. So I can't just shut one off without
affecting the other radiators in the zone.

I hope this clarifies things.

I kinda get your point, but I'm looking deeper. If your system is set up
correctly, there should never be any air in your system.
wrote in message
oups.com...
Sorry for the confusion, I meant: NOT TO BLEED the hot water radiator
in order to keep an air bubble in the radiator. This should prevent the
water from circulating properly in the radiator. But does this mean
that all the radiators that follow in that zone will also not heat up
properly?


Quite possibly.

My other concern is that this way there will be permanently air and
some water in the radiator and thus I am afraid there might be more
chance for oxidation.

Well, that has to do with the make up water. If you have a leak and air is
getting in, that means fresh, oxygenated water is getting in the system.
That fresh water will cause corrosion.


The radiators only have simple shut off valves and are as far as I can
tell in a series circuit. So I can't just shut one off without
affecting the other radiators in the zone.

I hope this clarifies things.

HeatMan wrote:
I kinda get your point, but I'm looking deeper. If your system is set up
correctly, there should never be any air in your system.

Yes, but if I remove some water from the system, than I will get air
into the radiators.....


wrote in message
oups.com...
Sorry for the confusion, I meant: NOT TO BLEED the hot water radiator
in order to keep an air bubble in the radiator. This should prevent the
water from circulating properly in the radiator. But does this mean
that all the radiators that follow in that zone will also not heat up
properly?


Quite possibly.

In this case it has the same effect as if I simply would close the
shutoff valve?

wrote in message
ups.com...
HeatMan wrote:
I kinda get your point, but I'm looking deeper. If your system is set
up
correctly, there should never be any air in your system.

Yes, but if I remove some water from the system, than I will get air
into the radiators.....


Okay, this has gone too far for me to attempt to daignose over the 'net. I
thnk you need to get someone into your house that knows hydronic systems.

I'd suggest you call someone on this page. These people are about the best
in the industry. http://www.heatinghelp.com/getlisted.cfm



wrote in message
oups.com...
Sorry for the confusion, I meant: NOT TO BLEED the hot water radiator
in order to keep an air bubble in the radiator. This should prevent
the
water from circulating properly in the radiator. But does this mean
that all the radiators that follow in that zone will also not heat up
properly?


Quite possibly.

In this case it has the same effect as if I simply would close the
shutoff valve?

My apologies for speaking out and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way,
but this post and the answer are very simple. You guys are complicating
everything.

"I'm guessing you have a one pipe steam system. If you 'don't vent'
the
radiator (and it is a one-pipe system), it won't heat.

They do make adjustable vents for one pipe system. Ask at the Wall.
http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFApp=2"

The idea is that he doesn't want certain radiators to heat to their
full capacity. Therefore he doesn't need self-bleeding valves.

"Don't the radiators have shut off valves. Do you mean turning off the
water at the boiler, that is circulation and some is needed so pipes
do
not freeze. What you state makes no sense."

He doesn't want them shut off, he wants to regulate their heat ouput.

"There shouldn't be. If your system is constantly taking in fresh,
(dissolved) oxygen-laden water, the will be corrosion. I'd worry more
about
the boiler than the radiators."

You have no leak, no fresh water entering the system beyond what would
enter it if there was no air in the radiators. The boiler is not
affected in any way

"I kinda get your point, but I'm looking deeper. If your system is set
up
correctly, there should never be any air in your system."

There shouldn't be any air in the system but to accomplish that, you
have to bleed the radiators manually periodically or have self
bleeders. He doesn't want it setup correctly. He wants to utilize the
fact that air is trapped in the radiators to regulate their heat
output.


"Well, that has to do with the make up water. If you have a leak and
air is
getting in, that means fresh, oxygenated water is getting in the
system.
That fresh water will cause corrosion."

Again, there is no leak, so no more fresh water will enter the system
becuase of air in the radiators than would enetr it if the air were
replaced by water.


" This should prevent the water from circulating properly in the
radiator. But does this mean that all the radiators that follow in that
zone will also not heat up
properly?"

The water flows into and out of the radiator at the bottom. The air
lock is at the top. As long as there is a few inches of water in the
radiator, water will continue to flow through to the following
radiators.

What you want to do is a very simple comcept. It has nothing to do with
the boiler or how many zones or fresh water entering the system. It's
good advise for a properly functioning system. Ignore it. A
disadvantage of hot water radiators is that they have to be bled
periodically. You want to use that disadvantage to your advantage and
regulate heat output. It is a very good idea. It does work and you will
not harm your system as explained above. In the real world, many people
never bleed their radiators and never know the difference. It's better
to regulate heat output with air in the radiator (harmless) than to
have a properly functioning system and and a few windows open to let
excess heat out.

Think about it. Sewer lines are cast iron. Radiators are cast iron. For
all intents and purposes, they don't corrode.


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Thank you hwm54112 for speaking out and for your answer to my question.
I hat just about given up on finding an answer through the forum. This
doesn't mean that I don't appreciate all the effort by the other
poster, I really do.


Thanks again to everybody

RUsirius

In-line.

"hwm54112" wrote in message
...

My apologies for speaking out and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way,
but this post and the answer are very simple. You guys are complicating
everything.

"I'm guessing you have a one pipe steam system. If you 'don't vent'
the
radiator (and it is a one-pipe system), it won't heat.

They do make adjustable vents for one pipe system. Ask at the Wall.
http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFApp=2"

The idea is that he doesn't want certain radiators to heat to their
full capacity. Therefore he doesn't need self-bleeding valves.

I've never heard of self-bleeding valves. Also, I guessed he had a steam
system instead of a hot water system.


"Don't the radiators have shut off valves. Do you mean turning off the
water at the boiler, that is circulation and some is needed so pipes
do
not freeze. What you state makes no sense."

He doesn't want them shut off, he wants to regulate their heat ouput.

Fine.

"There shouldn't be. If your system is constantly taking in fresh,
(dissolved) oxygen-laden water, the will be corrosion. I'd worry more
about
the boiler than the radiators."

You have no leak, no fresh water entering the system beyond what would
enter it if there was no air in the radiators. The boiler is not
affected in any way

Then where is the air coming from?

"I kinda get your point, but I'm looking deeper. If your system is set
up
correctly, there should never be any air in your system."

There shouldn't be any air in the system but to accomplish that, you
have to bleed the radiators manually periodically or have self
bleeders. He doesn't want it setup correctly. He wants to utilize the
fact that air is trapped in the radiators to regulate their heat
output.

"If the system was installed correctly, there should never be any air in the
system." What part of that statement don't you understand?



"Well, that has to do with the make up water. If you have a leak and
air is
getting in, that means fresh, oxygenated water is getting in the
system.
That fresh water will cause corrosion."

Again, there is no leak, so no more fresh water will enter the system
becuase of air in the radiators than would enetr it if the air were
replaced by water.


Read my last statement....


" This should prevent the water from circulating properly in the
radiator. But does this mean that all the radiators that follow in that
zone will also not heat up
properly?"

The water flows into and out of the radiator at the bottom. The air
lock is at the top. As long as there is a few inches of water in the
radiator, water will continue to flow through to the following
radiators.

True.

What you want to do is a very simple comcept. It has nothing to do with
the boiler or how many zones or fresh water entering the system. It's
good advise for a properly functioning system. Ignore it. A
disadvantage of hot water radiators is that they have to be bled
periodically. You want to use that disadvantage to your advantage and
regulate heat output. It is a very good idea. It does work and you will
not harm your system as explained above. In the real world, many people
never bleed their radiators and never know the difference. It's better
to regulate heat output with air in the radiator (harmless) than to
have a properly functioning system and and a few windows open to let
excess heat out.

If he needs to regulate heat output, get outdoor reset for the system.
It'll save money too.

Think about it. Sewer lines are cast iron. Radiators are cast iron. For
all intents and purposes, they don't corrode.

Yes they do.

"If the system was installed correctly, there should never be any air in
the
system." What part of that statement don't you understand?

Heatman, you obviously don't know old heating systems and radiators.
You did not read the original post, nor my definitive answer and do not
understand the concept of what faxemail123 is trying to do. Since i
answered his question to his satisfaction, I reply yet again to educate
you a bit more only because you are a helpful though argumentative
person. What parts don't you understand?

A hot water system has air in the expansion tank. It has to be there.
If the expansion tank becomes water logged, the system will not
function properly

A heating system gets air in it from the expansion tank, expansion and
contraction of the water as it heats (air is released), air bubbles
introduced in make-up water and water originally used to fill system.
It doesn't have to have a leak. Air is introduced naturally. Modern
baseboard heating systems don't typically need to be bled because they
are basically just a water pipe with fins. There is no place for air to
accumulate. Radiators have a very large space for air to accumulate. As
such, radiators must be bled periodically and as such should have
valves in the top to let the air out. They are commonly known as
bleeders. They are manually opened and closed with a "radiator key" to
let air out. Self bleeders are valves which allow air out but not
water. They typically were not used because of their additional expense
(5 to 7 times as much as a manual valve) and because they frequently
stopped working and had to be replaced.

"Okay, this has gone too far for me to attempt to daignose over the
'net. I
thnk you need to get someone into your house that knows hydronic
systems."

He never had a problem to diagnose. Read the title of the post.

"If he needs to regulate heat output, get outdoor reset for the
system.
It'll save money too."

He doesn't need to regulate the heat output of the system, only
specific rooms,specific radiators, therefore resets for the system
aren't the answer.


Think about it. Sewer lines are cast iron. Radiators are cast iron.
For
all intents and purposes, they don't corrode.
[/color]
Yes they do.

O.K. They corrode to the extent of getting a rusty coating on them.
Unless the cast iton is defective to begin with, they will not
deteriorate to a point where servicability is affected. The cast iron
sewer and cast iron radiators in my 90 year old house show no signs of
deteriorization. Nor has any of the cast iron I've seen in some 5,000
houses been rendered unservicable. "For all intents and purposes"

Faxemail, glad I could help.

Heatman, it's been interesting. Keep up the good work


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