I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.

If your water heater is that old, it's about time it's buried.

IMO, I'd call a plumber or HVAC guy to check the pressure.


"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.

"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.

Pressure in residences where I live is about 11 ounces. Less than a pound of
pressure.
High pressure, I would go "all in" against that. Utilities are controlled
by the state and they would have no reason to provide you more than the
equipment is designed to handle. You mentioned before that the previous
owner had the meter replaced? Not likely that the utility installed another
one that is mis-calibrated.

1973 water heater, just replace it.

I had the meter replaced as well however the regulator is separate and
is much older. Would there be any reason to believe that it went bad?

I'm tending to agree that I should just replace the water heater and
see what happens.

"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.


This is Turtle.

After 30 years of service i would replace it and not play the hunting trip
pressure game . There is a cotton mesh filter in most of these old gas hot water
tank gas valves and when through the years sulpher builds up in it and the flame
may become flawed and you would think there is a pressure problem.

TURTLE

You could call a plumber, but how much would that
cost? and what could he tell you, pressure is
low, pressure is right, pressure is too high?
Anyone with the ability to connect two pipes
together could go to a store and buy a gage plus
necessary stuff to hook it up, go home, turn off
the gas to the water heater, disconnect the water
heater, connect the gage, turn the valve on, read
the pressure. A lot cheaper and a lot faster than
calling a plumber. This isn't high tech, it is
barely one step above checking the pressure of
your tires.

Heck, a little reading and some mechanical ability
you can forgo buying a gage and make one in 5 minutes.

HeatMan wrote:
If your water heater is that old, it's about time it's buried.

IMO, I'd call a plumber or HVAC guy to check the pressure.


"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...

I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.

I would keep that old water heater it's working right? You no if you change
it, it will just lead to another problem. Besides what the big deal about a
couple extra bucks month, there is nothing like the charm of an antique in
the home

"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.

I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater

If its possible, depending on your wiring, I'd consider an electric water
heater.
The cost of gas has risen past the point where it used to be cheaper than
electric.
Contact your electric utility and see what they have for energy usage
comparisons for your area.
Many have incentives for "going electric"
"NG" is predicted to go up another 10-15% again this Winter.

R

SQLit wrote:

Pressure in residences where I live is about 11 ounces. Less than a pound of
pressure.

....11 ounces is a pressure? :-)

Nick

I think he means 11 column-inches.

wrote in message
...
SQLit wrote:

Pressure in residences where I live is about 11 ounces. Less than a pound
of
pressure.

...11 ounces is a pressure? :-)

Nick

Yes Nick.

Normal burner pressure is 3.5 Inches Water Colunm or IWC (also called
Inches Water Gauge or IWG). That is about 2 ounces per square inch.
Th check the proper firing of the water heater, you want to measure the
burner pressure, also called manifold pressure. There is a pressure
regulator built into the water heater thermostat assembly. Your
incoming pressure should be less than 1/2 PSI which is 14 Inches Water
Column. Normally the incomming pressure should be between 7 and 14
Inches Water Column, but check the label on the water heater.

SQLit, 11 ounces sounds like too high incoming pressure. 11 Inches
would be more correct.

Stretch

Natural gas is mentioned in "inches of water column". Or, the pressure
required to lift water. The actuall PSIG is rather low.

--

Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
It's longer in the short run
but shorter in the long run.
..
..


wrote in message
...
SQLit wrote:

Pressure in residences where I live is about 11 ounces. Less than a pound
of
pressure.

....11 ounces is a pressure? :-)

Nick

13. Rudy Sep 9, 1:36 am show options



I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater


If its possible, depending on your wiring, I'd consider an electric
water
heater.
The cost of gas has risen past the point where it used to be cheaper
than
electric.
Contact your electric utility and see what they have for energy usage
comparisons for your area.
Many have incentives for "going electric"
"NG" is predicted to go up another 10-15% again this Winter.



Rudy, even with price increases, natural gas is still cheaper than
electric for heating water in every area that I have heard of, if it is
available. Faster too. Getting someone competent to check the water
heater would be a good idea. BTW, not every contractor is competent.

Stretch

About gas vs electric:
Much boiler-fuel is NG. Do you think that'll affect electric rates?

Anyhow, for various simple physical reasons, in most areas, a BTU
delivered via NG costs about 1/4 that delivered electrically.

Let's see what Katrina brings. Where'd you hear 15%? Think 70+,
depending.

HTH,
J

"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had the meter replaced as well however the regulator is separate and
is much older. Would there be any reason to believe that it went bad?

I'm tending to agree that I should just replace the water heater and
see what happens.

No the regulators are pretty simple products.

Well, with all the great stuff posted here I'm going to price a new
water heater today. One thing I didn't know was that a water heater
has a regulator built into it. Who's to say that's not what's bad.

As for checking pressure myself, I think an easier way would be to buy
a fitting to attach to my dryer hose and checking the pressure there
(no soldering).

Once I have the new WH installed, I'll watch the meter and see how fast
it spins. I actually recorded the meter when the current WH was in a
heat cycle so I have something to compare to.

in ky our nat gas pressure is 30 on inlet and 4 pounds on the outlet.
you could put a good guage on it to check it. but most of the
burner/pilot problems like yours that i have had were fixed by taking
the burner assembly out and blowing it out with compressed air. lucas

"o it will probably live for quite a while yet"

not necessarily, it depends on your water, hard, soft ect
33 yrs on a gas heater is enough....i have seen heaters, that old, have
a problem in regards to the gas valve not shutting down the pilot if the
pilot flame goes out.
when it leaks, it might not drip, ive seen the glass liner go and wham,
mess time.

the new heaters are more efficient


--
whodat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
whodat's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=35
View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=58156

Firstly, not one of the steps you just advised the OP to take, in order to
determine delivery pressure were correct...not even remotely. Secondly, if
you were giving the OP legitimate advice and you believe what you replied
with you are a ****ing idiot, if not then you are dangerous as well.
Yargnits, I would strongly urge you to disregard everything this ****tard
just responded to your post with. Incidentally Cawthon when was the last
time that checking air in your tires, posed a potential explosion or fire
hazard to your home and family? Stupid mother****er.

Yargnits, call HVAC and/or Plumbing providers find out what a service call
costs. The pressure can be verified and adjusted if it is necessary at the
gas valve probably included in the service call price ( at least it would be
in ours). The delivery pressure is different for LP than it is for Natural.
If it is LP and has been operating correctly up to this point I would
suspect the regulator, at any rate dicking with gas and gas controls should
be left to professional service people.




"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
You could call a plumber, but how much would that
cost? and what could he tell you, pressure is
low, pressure is right, pressure is too high?
Anyone with the ability to connect two pipes
together could go to a store and buy a gage plus
necessary stuff to hook it up, go home, turn off
the gas to the water heater, disconnect the water
heater, connect the gage, turn the valve on, read
the pressure. A lot cheaper and a lot faster than
calling a plumber. This isn't high tech, it is
barely one step above checking the pressure of
your tires.

Heck, a little reading and some mechanical ability
you can forgo buying a gage and make one in 5 minutes.

HeatMan wrote:
If your water heater is that old, it's about time it's buried.

IMO, I'd call a plumber or HVAC guy to check the pressure.


"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...

I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.

Gas pressure, LP and Natural are expressed in water column inches, and 11"
is too high for either.
wrote in message
...
SQLit wrote:

Pressure in residences where I live is about 11 ounces. Less than a pound
of
pressure.

...11 ounces is a pressure? :-)

Nick

11" is too high to.

"Stretch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yes Nick.

Normal burner pressure is 3.5 Inches Water Colunm or IWC (also called
Inches Water Gauge or IWG). That is about 2 ounces per square inch.
Th check the proper firing of the water heater, you want to measure the
burner pressure, also called manifold pressure. There is a pressure
regulator built into the water heater thermostat assembly. Your
incoming pressure should be less than 1/2 PSI which is 14 Inches Water
Column. Normally the incomming pressure should be between 7 and 14
Inches Water Column, but check the label on the water heater.

SQLit, 11 ounces sounds like too high incoming pressure. 11 Inches
would be more correct.

Stretch

"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, with all the great stuff posted here I'm going to price a new
water heater today. One thing I didn't know was that a water heater
has a regulator built into it. Who's to say that's not what's bad.

As for checking pressure myself, I think an easier way would be to buy
a fitting to attach to my dryer hose and checking the pressure there
(no soldering).

Once I have the new WH installed, I'll watch the meter and see how fast
it spins. I actually recorded the meter when the current WH was in a
heat cycle so I have something to compare to.


What you really should see is not a difference in consumption while it
burns, but how short a period a new one takes before the water is hot.


AMUN

Anthony

3.5 inches WC is normal manifold pressure for natural gas. 11 inches
wc is normal manifold pressure for LP, although some LP burners go as
low as 8.5 Inches WC. Don't ask me, check with rour gas supplier. Or
a service tech with a manometer who knows how to check it.

Stretch

Pressure is tested through an existing tap in the thermostatic gas valve,
nothing is unsoldered....you people are scary.
"Amun" wrote in message
.. .

"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, with all the great stuff posted here I'm going to price a new
water heater today. One thing I didn't know was that a water heater
has a regulator built into it. Who's to say that's not what's bad.

As for checking pressure myself, I think an easier way would be to buy
a fitting to attach to my dryer hose and checking the pressure there
(no soldering).

Once I have the new WH installed, I'll watch the meter and see how fast
it spins. I actually recorded the meter when the current WH was in a
heat cycle so I have something to compare to.


What you really should see is not a difference in consumption while it
burns, but how short a period a new one takes before the water is hot.


AMUN

Incidentally, I didn't ask you....I made a statement. 11"wc for LP is not
ideal delivery pressure, 10" wc however is. 8.5" wc is too low and will
give an excessively yellow flame and a "dirty" burn.
"Stretch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Anthony

3.5 inches WC is normal manifold pressure for natural gas. 11 inches
wc is normal manifold pressure for LP, although some LP burners go as
low as 8.5 Inches WC. Don't ask me, check with rour gas supplier. Or
a service tech with a manometer who knows how to check it.

Stretch

Excellent retort for a 4th grader just learning
filthy words and trying to impress 6th graders.
It appear that your knowledge is about on the same
level. Get some help with your anger.


Anthony Berlin wrote:
Firstly, not one of the steps you just advised the OP to take, in order to
determine delivery pressure were correct...not even remotely. Secondly, if
you were giving the OP legitimate advice and you believe what you replied
with you are a ****ing idiot, if not then you are dangerous as well.
Yargnits, I would strongly urge you to disregard everything this ****tard
just responded to your post with. Incidentally Cawthon when was the last
time that checking air in your tires, posed a potential explosion or fire
hazard to your home and family? Stupid mother****er.

26. Anthony Berlin Sep 9, 6:26 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
From: "Anthony Berlin" - Find messages by this
author

I do it for a living, and NG should be delivered out of the gas valve
at
10"wc.



Anthony,

I also do it for a living and have been since 1975. I have worked on
Lennox gas furnaces that list 8.5" WC as the manifold pressure on the
nameplate for LP furnaces. If Lennox designs it to run at 8.5" that is
what I set the Manifold pressure for. If there is no pressure listed I
use 11" WC. A few years ago I installed a Carrier gas pack and
installed a LP conversion kit. The kit stated the manifold pressure
was set for 3.5" Wc. I thought it was a typo and called Carrier. They
designed it for 3.5 Inches manifold pressure and the orifices were
sized to work at that pressure. I have seen atmospheric gas burners on
hgh pressure steam boilers for dry cleaners that were designed to work
at 4 inches water column manifold pressure.

If there is no rating on the nameplate, I use 11 inches water column
for LP and 3.5 inches water column for natural gas. This has been the
standard since at least 1975 in the USA. Do you live outside the USA
by chance? There might be different standards elsewhere. If the
manufacturers name plate says something else, then I follow the
manufacturers instructions.

Stretch

No I live in the USA....you've just been doing it wrong since 1975.




"Stretch" wrote in message
oups.com...
26. Anthony Berlin Sep 9, 6:26 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
From: "Anthony Berlin" - Find messages by this
author

I do it for a living, and NG should be delivered out of the gas valve
at
10"wc.



Anthony,

I also do it for a living and have been since 1975. I have worked on
Lennox gas furnaces that list 8.5" WC as the manifold pressure on the
nameplate for LP furnaces. If Lennox designs it to run at 8.5" that is
what I set the Manifold pressure for. If there is no pressure listed I
use 11" WC. A few years ago I installed a Carrier gas pack and
installed a LP conversion kit. The kit stated the manifold pressure
was set for 3.5" Wc. I thought it was a typo and called Carrier. They
designed it for 3.5 Inches manifold pressure and the orifices were
sized to work at that pressure. I have seen atmospheric gas burners on
hgh pressure steam boilers for dry cleaners that were designed to work
at 4 inches water column manifold pressure.

If there is no rating on the nameplate, I use 11 inches water column
for LP and 3.5 inches water column for natural gas. This has been the
standard since at least 1975 in the USA. Do you live outside the USA
by chance? There might be different standards elsewhere. If the
manufacturers name plate says something else, then I follow the
manufacturers instructions.

Stretch

30. Anthony Berlin Sep 9, 8:47 pm show options

No I live in the USA....you've just been doing it wrong since 1975.



"Stretch" wrote in message



Anthony,

No, you are a troll.

You could not possibly be legitimate and doing what you say.
Therefore, henceforth I will ignore you.

Stretch

Personally I would just replace the old water heater myself since it's
already way out lived it's normal life and is most likely full of lime and
calcium.
Having said that it is very easy to check the manifold pressure on a water
heater at the provided plugged pressure port.
In fact you can make a water column gauge with a piece of 1/4" plastic
tube marked in one inch increments from the bottom and a tall bottle of
water. Like I said, I wouldn't even bother on a WH that old..
Most all newer residential water heaters do not have a PRV but are designed
to operate off of normal house gas pressure.

By the way, Stretch and Turtle both know what they are talking about, the
other troll just likes to type the "F" word and cause trouble all the time.

I've been doing this stuff for a living for over 37 years myself.

Yargnits wrote:

I posted a few days ago about my high gas bills and I still haven't had
any luck tracking the cause. Since my main suspect is the water heater
I contacted AO Smith and asked them how old the water heater was. They
said it was made in 1973 so it's the original one installed in my
house. I also sent them some pics of the water heater and the flame
and they said that the flame looks too big and colorful. They suspect
the gas pressure to be too high and that I should have the gas company
come check it.

It will like pulling teeth to get them to come out so I'd like an
opinion from the knowledgeable people here. Should I just replace the
30 year old water heater or pursue the pressure? It's got a glass tank
so it will probably live for quite a while yet and if it is the
pressure the new water heater will have the same problem. That is
unless they're putting regulators in them now.

Rudy, even with price increases, natural gas is still cheaper than
electric for heating water in every area that I have heard of, if it is
available.

Not here in BC. Our electric is .0605 cents Kwh CDN or about .051 cents
Kwh USD.
BC has the 3rd lowest electric rates in North America (the lowest 2 are
other Cdn provinces)
I'll admit that this isn't the case in the USA.

Here is a "calculator" that shows what the annual HW cost here is:
https://ewb.bchydro.com/appcalc/pg1.asp?id=0

Gas: $ 213 while electric is $ 189
Electric turns out to be $ 24 or 11.25% cheaper

IIRC, Gas (which BC has a lot of also) has gone up something like 300% or
more in the last 10 years and they're getting a 15% increase this Winter.

Electric went from around 4 cents to 6 cents in the same time

R

Where'd you hear 15%?

Thats here in BC. I have seen the +70% figure relating to NGas for
somewhere in the Midwest this Winter, on the news.

Gas regulators internal diaphram can be damaged easier than you think. I
have seen a few go bad, Not common but can happen.

Most of the time when they go bad is due to rupture when the gas service has
been off and then the valve on the incoming line is turned on too quickly,
should always open slowly to pervent rupture.



"SQLit" wrote in message
...

"Yargnits" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had the meter replaced as well however the regulator is separate and
is much older. Would there be any reason to believe that it went bad?

I'm tending to agree that I should just replace the water heater and
see what happens.

No the regulators are pretty simple products.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:25:16 -0500, "Anthony Berlin"
wrote:

Incidentally Cawthon when was the last
time that checking air in your tires, posed a potential explosion or
fire hazard to your home and family?


When they're filled with a flammable gas. It's not uncommon.

Fix-A-Flat, Seal N' Air, et al. use propane and latex,
an explosiove mixture when carbureted properly in air.

See, I can be a smartass, too. :-)



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--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info