"User Example" wrote in message
. ..
FDR wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message

The Prius has the mileage, but not the price. However, your price is a
red herring as people have no problem paying $35K for an SUV so paying
$22K for a Prius isn't a problem.

Matt

Not a question of total dollars, but of perceived value. If the Prius
was equipped as a standard gasoline powered car, it would sell for about
$15k or $16k. For the same price as the Prius, I can buy a minimal model
Buick LeSabre and have lots more room and comfort.

Comes down to paying $22k for a $16k car just to be "green" and probably
not save a buck in the overall life of the car. Even at today's prices,
there is no payback for a long time. In 75,000 miles (assuming a 15 mpg
gain) you'd save 1125 gallons of gas, at 3.30 a gallon, only $3712. Not
enough to pay the difference in car cost.


Yes, but your normal car depreciates to maybe %60 of it's sale price
withiin a few years. A Prius may retain 90%. There's several thousands
in savings right there. People right now are selling used Prius for more
than they paid, and that was long before this hurricane hit.

I doubt it considering the batteries probably only last about 10 years and
then you have to spend several thousand dollars to replace them.

Maybe. But I bet that cost comes down with newer technologies.

"User Example" wrote in message
.. .
[snip]

Of course, the first thing that needs to happen is that the auto-makers
need to start making fuel efficient cars instead of pumping out the
monster SUVs, and double cab pickups. Time to go back to the early 80's
when small cars were "cool".

Manufacturers ARE making fuel efficient cars, as well as SUVs (of all
sizes). People choose for themselves what it is they want to buy.

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I never understood why someone would pay a $5000+ premium over a
similarly equipped van.

Mike

1. Rear-wheel drive vs. front wheel
2. Truck chassis vs unit body construction
3. Driveability
4. Load carrying capability

And I'm not sure that your $5K figure is anywhere near accurate. --

"FDR" wrote in message
I doubt it considering the batteries probably only last about 10 years
and then you have to spend several thousand dollars to replace them.

Maybe. But I bet that cost comes down with newer technologies.
..
I would hope so. I'd not buy one because of the "great unknown" of
batteries and the cost. I tend to keep cars for a long time so that is a
factor for me. I'm also betting that fuel cells, batteries, hydrogen, or
something will be readily available in mass production (at reasonable cost)
in a few more years.

Of course, the first thing that needs to happen is that the auto-makers
need to start making fuel efficient cars instead of pumping out the
monster SUVs, and double cab pickups. Time to go back to the early 80's
when small cars were "cool".


Manufacturers ARE making fuel efficient cars, as well as SUVs (of all
sizes). People choose for themselves what it is they want to buy.


These Hybrids are not what I call fuel efficient. Yes, they are better
than standard cars but they could be better. Besides, they cost too
much for what you get. Auto makers have had years and years to get it
right but have choosen not to be innovative and we're still driving cars
around that have the same gas mileage as 30 years ago.

keith wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 15:13:07 +0000, Robert Allison wrote:


I have found one silver lining in this gas price surge. 35
years ago, cowboys, ranchers and construction workers drove
trucks. They were fairly reasonable back then. No frills,
but you could get a good truck without taking out a second
mortgage on the house. Since everyone and their mother wants
trucks and SUVs now, the price of those vehicles have
skyrocketed. Typical construction workers can barely afford
to buy what they NEED to do their job.


You can still buy "work trucks". They may not be sitting on the showroom
floor, but they can be ordered. OTOH, I see them all the time in the
Boston and NYC papers as bait.

I bought one. All of my trucks are "work trucks". That is
what I buy them for.


Now that gas prices are shooting up, the demand will go down and perhaps
those of us who NEED those types of vehicles will be able to afford
them. I am constantly looking at trucks and the first sign that demand
was going down was the Chevy employee discount on trucks. I am hoping
that that trend continues and that prices get back to reasonable levels.


Do you NEED fancy interriors? Power windows/locks? AC? 4WD? Work
trucks are available for about 60% of what the weekend-warrior pays for a
car replacement. Though when my son grew up and I no longer needed two
"cars" (or minivans) I bought a small pickup. As a weekend warrior myself,
I like to be able to fetch a sheet of plywood (or snowblower , or take
stuff to the dump. I also like some of the creature comforts of a car.


Yes, I need AC and 4WD. I live in Texas. I spend about 40%
of my time in the truck going from job to job, estimate to
estimate, etc. I have to pull trailers with backhoes,
bobcats, materials, etc. I have a Chevy 2500 HD that is just
barely enough to handle what I need it to do. I don't care if
it gets scratched or dented, but I do care that the AC works.
At least until winter gets here in January. May have a few
days that I can run without it then.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

willshak wrote:
On 9/5/2005 6:26 PM US(ET), Matt Whiting took fingers to keys, and typed
the following:

Steve B. wrote:

Yes, but your normal car depreciates to maybe %60 of it's sale price
withiin a few years. A Prius may retain 90%. There's several
thousands in savings right there. People right now are selling used
Prius for more than they paid, and that was long before this
hurricane hit.




So far the Prius is holding value very well. BUT.. that same Prius
is going to need a very expensive battery replacement in a few years
time. We are talking thousands of dollars.

I think the hybrids are a good idea and am glad to see them selling
well because those sales will encourage the auto companies to continue
to improve the technology and develop more technologies to save
energy. For my dollar though I would choose something like a VW
diesel that gets the same if not better gas mileage without all the
unknowns of future battery cost.



That was my conclusion also ... until I tried to find a VW diesel this
weekend. I live in PA, right near the NY border. I found out that NY
doesn't allow diesel cars to be sold in the state (for emissions
reasons the dealer told me), but you can buy big honking 3/4 ton
diesel pickups. Only in NY ... well, and CA.



BS! Where did you find out that NY doesn't allow diesel cars to be sold
in NY?

From Bill Cooke Volkswagen in Ithaca, NY. NY has adopted the CARB
standards and I was told that the VW diesels can't meet these standards
currently.


If you want to buy a diesel automobile in NY, go to any Mercedes or VW
dealer.

Duh, that is what I did and wrote. Can't you read?

I searched around and found nothing I'd call "official", but did find
several references such as this that also suggest that VW TDI cars
aren't available in CARB states.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...B5vC-QG1iom3Cw

Matt

World Traveler wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I never understood why someone would pay a $5000+ premium over a
similarly equipped van.

Mike

1. Rear-wheel drive vs. front wheel
2. Truck chassis vs unit body construction
3. Driveability
4. Load carrying capability

And I'm not sure that your $5K figure is anywhere near accurate. --

Well, back when the SUV craze began, actually several years later I saw
a report (don't recall where) in a car mag stating that it was about
$10,000. To see just what the premium is, check the price of an SUV vs
a similarly equipped pick-up built on the same chassis. Even that is
not accurate as 4x pickups have their own excessive markup.

Harry K

Harry K

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:hq5Te.2925$AB4.66@trnddc03...
I don't care if it gets scratched or dented, but I do care that the AC
works. At least until winter gets here in January. May have a few
days that I can run without it then.

It is common knowledge to those of us who live in Texas that we do,
indeed, have two distinct seasons: 1) January/February and 2) Summer.
Or is it December/January and Summer?
William Tecumseh Sherman was once quoted, "If I owned Texas and
Hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in Hell." Or words to that effect.
--
"New Wave" Dave In Houston

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:29:13 +0000, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:


"keith" wrote in message

Alternatively, you can put larger wheels on the back and small ones on the
front. Then you'll always be going down hill.

Not needed. Wife says I've been going down hill for past few years.

LOL! ;-)

--
Keith

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 01:53:41 +0000, D. J. MCBRIDE wrote:


"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:hq5Te.2925$AB4.66@trnddc03...
I don't care if it gets scratched or dented, but I do care that the AC
works. At least until winter gets here in January. May have a few
days that I can run without it then.

It is common knowledge to those of us who live in Texas that we do,
indeed, have two distinct seasons: 1) January/February and 2) Summer.
Or is it December/January and Summer?

It's no different in NE, though we have three seasons; Winter, Deep
Winter, and mud.

Q: What does a Vermonter do in the Summer?
A: If it falls on Sunday, they have a picnic.

William Tecumseh Sherman was once quoted, "If I owned Texas and
Hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in Hell." Or words to that effect.

I know those who rent out the better place. More money. ;-)

--
Keith

On 5-Sep-2005, "World Traveler" wrote:

1. Rear-wheel drive vs. front wheel

Guess what - vans come with 4WD too. I did say a similarly
equipped van.

2. Truck chassis vs unit body construction

Irrelevant for the majority of SUV drivers. They are only commuting
to work or going to the mall after all.

3. Driveability

??? I've driven both types both on and off road. They both handle
poorly. Light ass-end and top heavy. what's your point?

4. Load carrying capability

Again - irrelevant for the majority of drivers.

And I'm not sure that your $5K figure is anywhere near accurate.

Never actually priced the vehicles, did you? Some models of SUV
were upwards of $15,000 over the vans the same company sold.

Detroit was making about $10,000 profit per SUV on average and
losing money on almost every car they sold. That's why they
loved selling them and why every manufacturer in the world
came out with one - even Porche, FCS.

Mike

On 5-Sep-2005, Steve B. wrote:

For my dollar though I would choose something like a VW
diesel that gets the same if not better gas mileage without all the
unknowns of future battery cost.

On the highway, they are about the same. There's no comparison in
the city - the hybrid wins hands down.

Mike

On 5-Sep-2005, Matt Whiting wrote:

They do make fuel efficient cars, but few buy them.

Around here, there are waiting lists for the Prius.

Detroit doesn't make fuel efficient cars. Everyone else
does. They aren't always imported into the US.

Mike

On 5-Sep-2005, User Example wrote:

These Hybrids are not what I call fuel efficient.

Then what are they? They get better fuel economy in the
city than on the highway - what conventional vehicle can
do that?

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 5-Sep-2005, User Example wrote:


These Hybrids are not what I call fuel efficient.


Then what are they? They get better fuel economy in the
city than on the highway - what conventional vehicle can
do that?

I call them "not good enough". They are a nice start but getting 15-20%
better gas mileage is not a big deal to me.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In the past, I would always use my pick-up truck for anything and
everything construction related. Even for going to the store and buying
say
a 5 gallon can of something.

Yesterday I needed to go to the store and buy a bunch of construction
stuff....

I thought about it... I would not be buying anything long... hummm, maybe
I
could fit it all in my 38 MPG hatchback car?

And I'll be darned if everything fit. Just barely made it, but I crammed
it
all in there. So then I filled up with gas on way back (tank half full)...
$9.00, not bad!

I think I'll use the car whenever possible from now on....



You make a good point some may ridicule or scoff at.

Have been using an 88 VW Fox Wagon for toting alot of stuff on many projects
here. If its less the 4' wide, no problem. Less wide stuff like 2X lumber,
piping up to 10' in length sticking slightly out the open hatch. Toted 12
bags of concrete a few weeks ago, true low-rider. Tailpipe the street once,
difficult/boat like steering in the process. 33 mpg hwy/ 26 city w/ no load
onboard. Police give it a 2nd look when doing the lowrider or extended
payload outback, but don't stop me.

$9.00 worth of gas to fill a tank? No way...
...There are no hatchbacks in this country that only have
a 6 to 7 gallon tank.


I'm not being "scientific" about this in the least, and a car gas gauge is
far from being an accurate instrument...

Anyway, I just looked it up and my tank holds 10 gallons (95 Ford Aspire).
The needle was a little over half way full and my price of gas around
$2.70. I have never paid more than $14.00 to fill up my car, the lowest gas
gauge reading being 1/4 full. So I guess 1/4 full is closer to 1/2 full on
my car gas gauge?

I live in a rural area and need to "go to town" to buy stuff. The
"unscientific" bottom line is...
-The last time I drove my 6 cylinder truck "to town", it cost $25 for a
fill-up with the needle being at 1/2 (gas was around $2.59).
-When I drive my car, it costs a lot less to fill-up.

"PME" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In the past, I would always use my pick-up truck for anything and
everything construction related. Even for going to the store and buying
say
a 5 gallon can of something.

Yesterday I needed to go to the store and buy a bunch of construction
stuff....

I thought about it... I would not be buying anything long... hummm,
maybe
I
could fit it all in my 38 MPG hatchback car?

And I'll be darned if everything fit. Just barely made it, but I crammed
it
all in there. So then I filled up with gas on way back (tank half
full)...
$9.00, not bad!

I think I'll use the car whenever possible from now on....

So, was this You??
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Overload.htm



The wife has a Honda Element. It is one of the neatest little cars I've ever
driven. I actully love it and am thinking that when the lease is up, I'll
buy it and remove the rear seats and use it for hauling small stuff.


--
J.C.

On 6-Sep-2005, User Example wrote:

I call them "not good enough". They are a nice start but getting 15-20%
better gas mileage is not a big deal to me.

Fair enough - I agree that if efficiency had been a serious objective
then we'd see better results today.

However, the greatest improvements in fuel consumption, in the short to
medium term, would be changes in driver behavior. Buying a gas guzzler
and driving like an idiot or driving unnecessarily are behaviors that
can be changed with _huge_ reductions in consumption. You don't need a
6000lb, 300hp behemoth to go pick up a quart of milk.

Mike

On 6-Sep-2005, "Bill" wrote:

So I guess 1/4 full is closer to 1/2 full on
my car gas gauge?

Gas guages are not instruments in any reasonable interpretation
of the word. Mine shows me getting 400km for the first half and
about 200km in the second half. They are decorations on the dash
that more or less tell you when you are running out of gas.

Mike

On 6-Sep-2005, "Lil' Dave" wrote:

If its less the 4' wide, no problem. Less wide stuff like 2X lumber,
piping up to 10' in length sticking slightly out the open hatch.

Two words - roof rack.

Mike

Guess what - vans come with 4WD too. I did say a similarly
equipped van.


To the best of my knowledge, no-one builds a 4wd van.
There are companies like Quigley motors that will do
a conversion for around $9,0000, though.

On 6-Sep-2005, Goedjn wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, no-one builds a 4wd van.

Toyota Sienna
GMC Safari
Chevy Astro

There a bunch of others. Do a google search.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

On 6-Sep-2005, Goedjn wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, no-one builds a 4wd van.

Toyota Sienna
GMC Safari
Chevy Astro

There a bunch of others. Do a google search.

Pedant mode on

Those are all "mini" vans, though, aren't they? (I'm so outta' touch I
don't even know what the GM ones are by name, for sure)

To the best of my knowledge, no-one builds a 4wd van.

Toyota Sienna
GMC Safari
Chevy Astro


Ok, point taken. I have trouble remembering that
those are "vans". I think of them as stationwagons
with a thyroid condition.

THIS: http://www.quigley4x4.com/
is the thing I was thinking of..

"User Example" wrote in message
.. .
Bill wrote:
In the past, I would always use my pick-up truck for anything and
everything construction related. Even for going to the store and buying
say
a 5 gallon can of something.

Yesterday I needed to go to the store and buy a bunch of construction
stuff....

I thought about it... I would not be buying anything long... hummm, maybe
I
could fit it all in my 38 MPG hatchback car?

And I'll be darned if everything fit. Just barely made it, but I crammed
it
all in there. So then I filled up with gas on way back (tank half
full)...
$9.00, not bad!

I think I'll use the car whenever possible from now on....


I think there will be a lot more thinking like that from now on. The days
of cheap gas are gone forever. The prices may go down some but not much.
It's time for all of us to start thinking sensibly.

Of course, the first thing that needs to happen is that the auto-makers
need to start making fuel efficient cars instead of pumping out the
monster SUVs, and double cab pickups. Time to go back to the early 80's
when small cars were "cool".

The small cars of the 80's were not cool! They were little tin coffins.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
User Example wrote:

Bill wrote:

In the past, I would always use my pick-up truck for anything and
everything construction related. Even for going to the store and
buying say
a 5 gallon can of something.

Yesterday I needed to go to the store and buy a bunch of construction
stuff....

I thought about it... I would not be buying anything long... hummm,
maybe I
could fit it all in my 38 MPG hatchback car?

And I'll be darned if everything fit. Just barely made it, but I
crammed it
all in there. So then I filled up with gas on way back (tank half
full)...
$9.00, not bad!

I think I'll use the car whenever possible from now on....


I think there will be a lot more thinking like that from now on. The
days of cheap gas are gone forever. The prices may go down some but not
much. It's time for all of us to start thinking sensibly.

Of course, the first thing that needs to happen is that the auto-makers
need to start making fuel efficient cars instead of pumping out the
monster SUVs, and double cab pickups. Time to go back to the early 80's
when small cars were "cool".

They do make fuel efficient cars, but few buy them. This problem isn't
Detriot's or even Washington's, it is our problem. If you want to see
the cause of high fuel prices and shortages, just look in the mirror.

Matt

Depends what you mean by fuel efficient. Hear these loose terms all over
this thread.

Believe its the people going solo to/from work in their big V8, high weight
SUVs waiting in stop n' go traffic with the AC going full blast that are
consuming most of the gasoline per person per mile. All the gas saved by
the less cylinders used in the latest Hemi, is killed by one foot stomp on
the gas pedal. All of this is appropriate for the look in the mirror
remark. Both for vehicle demand type from Detroit and fuel consumption.

"Lil' Dave" wrote in
ink.net:


Depends what you mean by fuel efficient. Hear these loose terms all
over this thread.

Believe its the people going solo to/from work in their big V8, high
weight SUVs waiting in stop n' go traffic with the AC going full blast
that are consuming most of the gasoline per person per mile. All the
gas saved by the less cylinders used in the latest Hemi, is killed by
one foot stomp on the gas pedal. All of this is appropriate for the
look in the mirror remark. Both for vehicle demand type from Detroit
and fuel consumption.




My trip home takes 45 minutes... 20 minutes going 3 miles through town,
and 25 minutes going ~20 miles on the highway. I've often said that if I
could eliminate the stopping, I'd get much better gas mileage.

I want a car that gets 100+ mpg, but I don't know of anyone that makes
them.

Puckdropper
--
www.uncreativelabs.net

Old computers are getting to be a lost art. Here at Uncreative Labs, we
still enjoy using the old computers. Sometimes we want to see how far a
particular system can go, other times we use a stock system to remind
ourselves of what we once had.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"David A" wrote in message
news:lVoTe.17958$Sx4.14932@trnddc06...

"User Example" wrote in message
.. .
Bill wrote:
In the past, I would always use my pick-up truck for anything and
everything construction related. Even for going to the store and buying
say
a 5 gallon can of something.

Yesterday I needed to go to the store and buy a bunch of construction
stuff....

I thought about it... I would not be buying anything long... hummm,
maybe
I
could fit it all in my 38 MPG hatchback car?

And I'll be darned if everything fit. Just barely made it, but I
crammed
it
all in there. So then I filled up with gas on way back (tank half
full)...
$9.00, not bad!

I think I'll use the car whenever possible from now on....


I think there will be a lot more thinking like that from now on. The
days
of cheap gas are gone forever. The prices may go down some but not
much.
It's time for all of us to start thinking sensibly.

Of course, the first thing that needs to happen is that the auto-makers
need to start making fuel efficient cars instead of pumping out the
monster SUVs, and double cab pickups. Time to go back to the early 80's
when small cars were "cool".

The small cars of the 80's were not cool! They were little tin coffins.



Not so much so if there weren't all the big SUVs bullying them around by
sheer weight and size, and you all would slow the "f" down to make things
safer collision-wise on the faster roads.

Small cars were never cool. They just made sense until the behemoths were
built again. Now everyone needs a behemoth for some sense of survivability.

And it all goes back to the same thing, look in the mirror. Not behind you,
at yourself. And even if you do, you'll still do the same BS until you're
forced to do so. No conscience, self only, feed the system.

Lil' Dave wrote:
"David A" wrote in message
news:lVoTe.17958$Sx4.14932@trnddc06...

"User Example" wrote in message
...

Bill wrote:

In the past, I would always use my pick-up truck for anything and
everything construction related. Even for going to the store and buying
say
a 5 gallon can of something.

Yesterday I needed to go to the store and buy a bunch of construction
stuff....

I thought about it... I would not be buying anything long... hummm,

maybe

I
could fit it all in my 38 MPG hatchback car?

And I'll be darned if everything fit. Just barely made it, but I

crammed

it
all in there. So then I filled up with gas on way back (tank half
full)...
$9.00, not bad!

I think I'll use the car whenever possible from now on....


I think there will be a lot more thinking like that from now on. The

days

of cheap gas are gone forever. The prices may go down some but not

much.

It's time for all of us to start thinking sensibly.

Of course, the first thing that needs to happen is that the auto-makers
need to start making fuel efficient cars instead of pumping out the
monster SUVs, and double cab pickups. Time to go back to the early 80's
when small cars were "cool".

The small cars of the 80's were not cool! They were little tin coffins.




Not so much so if there weren't all the big SUVs bullying them around by
sheer weight and size, and you all would slow the "f" down to make things
safer collision-wise on the faster roads.

Small cars were never cool. They just made sense until the behemoths were
built again. Now everyone needs a behemoth for some sense of survivability.

And it all goes back to the same thing, look in the mirror. Not behind you,
at yourself. And even if you do, you'll still do the same BS until you're
forced to do so. No conscience, self only, feed the system.



Are you telling me small sports cars weren't cool?