I have a simple question just my observation. You see all the
destruction the confusion witch is to be expected in a disaster this size.
The question are flying, the blame is being pointed. We are seeing are
government talking, predicting telling what an impact it all is ( there's a
no brainier)Well hear is my question The same as everyone else's Why is the
aid and help taking so long? Why don't they just ask the oil Co. to help ?
They are fast the wasted no time raising oil prices.
Fox News "State Attorney General Bill Lockyer on Friday launched a
probe into possible price gouging by gas and oil companies following
Hurricane Katrina." Well I'll sleep better now, somebody's on it.

Sacramento Dave wrote:
I have a simple question just my observation. You see all the
destruction the confusion witch is to be expected in a disaster this size.
The question are flying, the blame is being pointed. We are seeing are
government talking, predicting telling what an impact it all is ( there's a
no brainier)Well hear is my question The same as everyone else's Why is the
aid and help taking so long? Why don't they just ask the oil Co. to help ?
They are fast the wasted no time raising oil prices.

If you really think this administration will ask the oil cartel to pay
for anything, I have great deals on beach front properties you would
love to own...

Remember, these are the same people who cut gov funding for flood
prevention programs in Alabama and somewhere else, from what I hear.

Of course this was after they cut taxes. I got a $300 refund years
ago and about the same reduction yearly. Can't even start to count how
many times I have spent that "tax reduction" in local taxes increases
and higher prices on just about everything, from milk to home
insurance.

Guess who will have to pay to rebuild what Katrina destroyed? I am
ready to do my part, but I don't expect what you suggest to happen.

Sacramento Dave wrote:

....Snip incoherent rambling...

They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

Yup, "market prices" that magic, uncontrollable, all powerful force, that
determines the price. Much of it is determined by a handful of oil companies
that run the world's oil supply. No one tells them to lower oil prices much
less tells them to raise the prices. They charge what they can get away
with. After all would we want their management to have to forgo their multi
million dollar bonuses for increasing the bottom line for this quarter!



"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...

They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil
prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

If you really think this administration will ask the oil cartel to pay
for anything, I have great deals on beach front properties you would
love to own...

I don't think they would get a dime frome them. My point was they could show
them how get it done fast. But then in the administration wisdom and
thinking They will Tax the Tobaco CO.. (I'm not a smoker) What the hell
they tax them for everything else.

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...

They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

Mebbe so, but the gas in the tanks at the individual gas stations has
already been paid for. Raising prices due to calamity on the existing,
already-been-paid-for supply is pretty much the definition of gouging.

R

RicodJour wrote:
Duane Bozarth wrote:

Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...


They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.


Mebbe so, but the gas in the tanks at the individual gas stations has
already been paid for. Raising prices due to calamity on the existing,
already-been-paid-for supply is pretty much the definition of gouging.

R


What do you expect the station's owner / operator to pay for the
replacement fuel with. The price of what they are selling now must
cover the cost of what they will buy to replace it.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

On 3-Sep-2005, Duane Bozarth wrote:

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

Don't confuse the price of a barrel of oil with the price at the pump.
The former is set on world markets. The latter is manipulated by
the supply chain. The price of a barrel goes up 10% and the price at
the pump goes up 25%. Look at the fraction of the pump price that
actually reflects the cost of oil and then realize the the other costs
are largely fixed in the short term and it's pretty obvious that the
pump price is theft. And as another poster pointed out - the oil in the
supply chain is already paid for - at lower prices.

Mike

"HorneTD" wrote in message
nk.net...
RicodJour wrote:
Duane Bozarth wrote:

Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...


They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil
prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.


Mebbe so, but the gas in the tanks at the individual gas stations has
already been paid for. Raising prices due to calamity on the existing,
already-been-paid-for supply is pretty much the definition of gouging.

R


What do you expect the station's owner / operator to pay for the
replacement fuel with.

The money that they have made from previous transactions. Do you think gas
stations don't make profits.

On the flip side, when the wholesalers drop their prices, the gas staions
will be a lot slower lowering prices. They will have made a lot more money
and will pocket the difference.

The price of what they are selling now must
cover the cost of what they will buy to replace it.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Dave Jefford wrote:
On 3 Sep 2005 08:17:17 -0700, "Dumbo" wrote:


Guess who will have to pay to rebuild what Katrina destroyed? I am
ready to do my part, but I don't expect what you suggest to happen.


Pray, God will solve all our problems. BTW, where is God Now?



He's watching CNN like you should be. Got any home repair topics to
discuss, genius?

Michael Daly wrote:

On 3-Sep-2005, Duane Bozarth wrote:

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

Don't confuse the price of a barrel of oil with the price at the pump.
The former is set on world markets. The latter is manipulated by
the supply chain. ...

Actually gasoline is also traded on the exchanges...

http://www.nymex.com/gas_pre_agree.aspx

It tracks oil (obviously) in pretty close lock-step. At the pump prices
are affected by local and federal taxes, transportation, and regional
and local requirements for specific additives/mixtures for environmental
(mostly) purposes, and competition.

"EXT" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
They charge what they can get away
with. After all would we want their management to have to forgo their
multi
million dollar bonuses for increasing the bottom line for this quarter!

The same people bitching about oil prices will look at their 401k at the end
of the year and think it is wonderful because the companies they hold make
lots of profit.

"HorneTD" wrote in message
What do you expect the station's owner / operator to pay for the
replacement fuel with. The price of what they are selling now must cover
the cost of what they will buy to replace it.
--
Tom Horne

They can use money and credit like every other business in the word does.

In article ,
says...
Pray, God will solve all our problems. BTW, where is God Now?

Those who believe would say he is in the heart's of those lined up
giving blood, money, opening up their homes and volunteering their time
for the needy.
--
Lar

to email....get rid of the BUGS

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

"EXT" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
They charge what they can get away
with. After all would we want their management to have to forgo their
multi
million dollar bonuses for increasing the bottom line for this quarter!

The same people bitching about oil prices will look at their 401k at the
end of the year and think it is wonderful because the companies they hold
make lots of profit.


So you think gouging is ethical.

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 3-Sep-2005, Duane Bozarth wrote:

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

Don't confuse the price of a barrel of oil with the price at the pump.
The former is set on world markets. The latter is manipulated by
the supply chain. The price of a barrel goes up 10% and the price at
the pump goes up 25%.

World oil wnet up $4 a barrel, or about 6% during the disaster while gas
prices went up a 100%

Look at the fraction of the pump price that
actually reflects the cost of oil and then realize the the other costs
are largely fixed in the short term and it's pretty obvious that the
pump price is theft. And as another poster pointed out - the oil in the
supply chain is already paid for - at lower prices.

Mike

"FDR" wrote in message
The same people bitching about oil prices will look at their 401k at the
end of the year and think it is wonderful because the companies they hold
make lots of profit.


So you think gouging is ethical.

Where did I say that? Many people want to have it both ways. I'm in favor
of profits for every business though.

The consumer (us) have a fari amount of influence on commodity prices.
My wife & I were going to drive ~700 miles ove the labor weekend but
decided not to go because of $3/gallon gas.

If more people did this gas (& oil prices) would fall.

Carpool only onje or two days a week, take the bus
Combine trips, forgo trips, etc

Small changes by all of us can make a big difference.

cheers
Bob

On 3 Sep 2005 08:17:17 -0700, "Dumbo" wrote:

Guess who will have to pay to rebuild what Katrina destroyed? I am
ready to do my part, but I don't expect what you suggest to happen.

Pray, God will solve all our problems. BTW, where is God Now?

FDR wrote:

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

"EXT" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
They charge what they can get away
with. After all would we want their management to have to forgo their
multi
million dollar bonuses for increasing the bottom line for this quarter!

The same people bitching about oil prices will look at their 401k at the
end of the year and think it is wonderful because the companies they hold
make lots of profit.


So you think gouging is ethical.

Who, specifically is "gouging"? Something approaching 25% of the US
supply of refined petroleum products was lost for an indefinite period
and you expect the markets to not reflect that in an already tight world
market?

"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message
.. .
If you really think this administration will ask the oil cartel to pay
for anything, I have great deals on beach front properties you would
love to own...

Hey, watchya asking for that beachfront?
I don't know if they were asked, but the Saudi Refining Co. just donated 5
million for relief.

CR



I don't think they would get a dime frome them. My point was they could
show
them how get it done fast. But then in the administration wisdom and
thinking They will Tax the Tobaco CO.. (I'm not a smoker) What the hell
they tax them for everything else.

"Dave Jefford" wrote in message
...
On 3 Sep 2005 08:17:17 -0700, "Dumbo" wrote:

Guess who will have to pay to rebuild what Katrina destroyed? I am
ready to do my part, but I don't expect what you suggest to happen.

Pray, God will solve all our problems. BTW, where is God Now?


Did someone call me ?
LOL


Couldn't tell you where GOD is.
But I thank him for giving me the common sense not to live in a hole with a
few dirt mounds keeping the ocean out of my living room

AMUN

Absolutely.

And guess what ?
If those handful of oil companies get together and say "hey arabs, we are
only going to pay you fifty cents a barrel from now on"

Guess what? The arabs would still keep the taps on, as they can't get rid of
the black goop fast enough.
Prices would drop to 1950's levels overnight.

Aw wait, it's couldn't be THAT SIMPLE could it ?


AMUN



"EXT" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
anews.com...
Yup, "market prices" that magic, uncontrollable, all powerful force, that
determines the price. Much of it is determined by a handful of oil
companies
that run the world's oil supply. No one tells them to lower oil prices
much
less tells them to raise the prices. They charge what they can get away
with. After all would we want their management to have to forgo their
multi
million dollar bonuses for increasing the bottom line for this quarter!



"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...

They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil
prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
Duane Bozarth wrote:
Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...

They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil
prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

Mebbe so, but the gas in the tanks at the individual gas stations has
already been paid for. Raising prices due to calamity on the existing,
already-been-paid-for supply is pretty much the definition of gouging.

R


Sorry to burst your bubble but station owners don't have much control over
street prices.
They are TOLD what to sell it at, and are phoned and told when to change the
prices.

The mom and pop gas stations that bought gas then sold it themselves are
long gone.

At best, Mom and Pop might still own the building and run the store, but the
pumps are leased out and run as a separate business that might give Mom and
Pop a paycheck once a month.


AMUN

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 18:54:33 GMT, "FDR"
wrote:

So you think gouging is ethical.

Of course, make money while you can.
The rich will get richer and let those who
can't pay, walk!

God take care of the rich who can pay only.

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...

They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

You must be right man, everything is nice and dandy. I wonder what
these damn politicians are after?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/...asprices.reut/

On 3-Sep-2005, Duane Bozarth wrote:

At the pump prices
are affected by local and federal taxes, transportation, and regional
and local requirements for specific additives/mixtures for environmental
(mostly) purposes, and competition.

And those prices are either fixed in the short term or are a percentage
of the retail price (taxes). That proves nothing. It still remains
that the full retail price at the pump is manipulated independent of
the wholesale price of oil or gasoline.

Mike

Amun wrote:

Absolutely.

And guess what ?
If those handful of oil companies get together and say "hey arabs, we are
only going to pay you fifty cents a barrel from now on"

Guess what? The arabs would still keep the taps on, as they can't get rid of
the black goop fast enough.
Prices would drop to 1950's levels overnight.

Aw wait, it's couldn't be THAT SIMPLE could it ?


No...as explained ad nauseum, global prices are set on and by the global
major mercantile markets.

Amun wrote:
....
Sorry to burst your bubble but station owners don't have much control over
street prices.

In the main, that's true--sorta...they can set the price wherever they
want but they are pretty much at the mercy of the distributors to their
cost which has at least some effect on their selling price...

They are TOLD what to sell it at, and are phoned and told when to change the
prices.

That is not true. Central chains dictate, yes but not how you want it
to sound.

The mom and pop gas stations that bought gas then sold it themselves are
long gone.

Not necessarily...the largest stations here all independently
owned/operated.

At best, Mom and Pop might still own the building and run the store, but the
pumps are leased out and run as a separate business that might give Mom and
Pop a paycheck once a month.

That is simply not universally true. I don't, in fact, know of anywhere
around here that it is true.

Michael Daly wrote:

On 3-Sep-2005, Duane Bozarth wrote:

At the pump prices
are affected by local and federal taxes, transportation, and regional
and local requirements for specific additives/mixtures for environmental
(mostly) purposes, and competition.

And those prices are either fixed in the short term or are a percentage
of the retail price (taxes). That proves nothing. It still remains
that the full retail price at the pump is manipulated independent of
the wholesale price of oil or gasoline.

Not totally independent if you'll simply look at the mercantile exchange
closing prices for the two commodities you'll find they're quite highly
(positively) correlated.

And I said local prices are "affected by" not totally controlled by...

Dumbo wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Sacramento Dave wrote:

...Snip incoherent rambling...

They ["the" oil comanies] are fast the wasted no time raising oil prices.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum, oil (and gasoline) are traded on
open mercantile markets...oil is bought/sold there, at market prices.

You must be right man, everything is nice and dandy. I wonder what
these damn politicians are after?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/...asprices.reut/

Press and political advantage, mostly...

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 10:08:12 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

| Michael Daly wrote:
|
| On 3-Sep-2005, Duane Bozarth wrote:
|
| At the pump prices
| are affected by local and federal taxes, transportation, and regional
| and local requirements for specific additives/mixtures for environmental
| (mostly) purposes, and competition.
|
| And those prices are either fixed in the short term or are a percentage
| of the retail price (taxes). That proves nothing. It still remains
| that the full retail price at the pump is manipulated independent of
| the wholesale price of oil or gasoline.
|
| Not totally independent if you'll simply look at the mercantile exchange
| closing prices for the two commodities you'll find they're quite highly
| (positively) correlated.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Gasoline futures surged 14 percent last
week while crude oil prices gained only 2 percent.

|
| And I said local prices are "affected by" not totally controlled by...

Tom Miller wrote:

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 10:08:12 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

....
| Not totally independent if you'll simply look at the mercantile exchange
| closing prices for the two commodities you'll find they're quite highly
| (positively) correlated.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Gasoline futures surged 14 percent last
week while crude oil prices gained only 2 percent.
....

Ant that is still a positive correlation...it would be difficult to
conceive of them being totally independent as one is the raw material
for the other.

And, of course, I started this subthread branch by pointing out that
there are open markets for both products...

Sacramento Dave wrote:
I have a simple question just my observation. You see all the
destruction the confusion witch is to be expected in a disaster this
size. The question are flying, the blame is being pointed. We are
seeing are government talking, predicting telling what an impact it
all is ( there's a no brainier)Well hear is my question The same as
everyone else's Why is the aid and help taking so long?

As LtGen Honore said: "If you've ever had 20,000 people to dinner, you'd
know."

First, a natural disaster is the responsibility of the state. The federal
government can do nothing, nothing, unless officially requested by the
state. The feds COULD nationalize the National Guard, but that requires
congressional action and the Congress was on vacation when Katrina hit. The
president COULD order the regular army in, but under Posse Comitatus laws,
they have, legally, no authority whatsoever.

There's a political calculus afoot, too. The governor of Mississippi
declared martial law on Monday. The governor of Louisiana did not do so
until Thursday. Even today, the mayor of New Orleans is holding forth from
his 26th floor suite at the Hyatt.

Here's the deal: In my city, the average time for the first piece of
equipment to arrive at a fire is FOUR MINUTES after the alarm is called in.
In a major disaster, a more realistic time frame is four DAYS for
significant help to arrive. Consider moving 2 million MREs from a warehouse
in Illinois to southern Louisiana. A day to find and load thirty
18-wheelers, two days on the road, a day to unload. It just can't be done
faster.

I recall after 9-11, a small town in North Carolina donated a fire truck to
the New York fire department to replace some of the equipment lost in the
tragedy. It wasn't a super-dooper truck, but it was all the small city could
do. The truck was placed in service and, as far as I know, is still doing
what it can. Point is, it took a week from the time the idea was broached
for this one little truck to arrive in the Big Apple.

I'm in Houston and we're housing some 40,000 refugees. Consider the
Astrodome: Events had to be re-scheduled, some 1000 dome employees had to be
activated to handle the physical plant, union contracts had to be
negotiated, supplies laid in (you try finding 20,000 cots and getting them
delivered today), food, water, clothing, medical care, schools,
communications, ancillary showers and sanitary facilities, ad infinitum.
Then there's the ripple effect throughout the community. The Houston police
department cancelled vacations and leaves. Hospitals in the area started
their emergency preparedness plans. In just one day, the city's need for
Insulin supplies doubled.

The Normanday Invasion took a year to plan and involved HALF as many people
(and none of them sick).

No, a response time of a week for significant assistance is reasonable.
Regrettable, even fatal to some, but reasonable.

Why don't
they just ask the oil Co. to help ? They are fast the wasted no time
raising oil prices. Fox News "State Attorney General Bill
Lockyer on Friday launched a
probe into possible price gouging by gas and oil companies following
Hurricane Katrina." Well I'll sleep better now, somebody's on it.

Go for it. Since the Carter oil-crunch in the 70's, there have been at least
SEVEN congressional investigations of oil companies. The Congress even
passed an "excess profits tax." In all those inquiries there has never been
any evidence of wrong-doing unearthed. No collusion, no gouging, no
conspiracy. Nothing.

Politicians easily show "leadership" after tragedies. Bah!

I have a simple question just my observation. You see all the
destruction the confusion witch is to be expected in a disaster this size.
The question are flying, the blame is being pointed. We are seeing are
government talking, predicting telling what an impact it all is ( there's a
no brainier)Well hear is my question The same as everyone else's Why is the
aid and help taking so long? Why don't they just ask the oil Co. to help ?

The answer is, it's *NOT* taking very long, it's taking about as long
as one would expect for a major, large-area disaster.

The mom and pop gas stations that bought gas then sold it themselves are
long gone.


There are independant gas stations. There are even independant
gas-stations that don't rise their prices when people start to
panic. Those are the ones that had 3-mile lines on the
first day, and have been out of gas ever since.

--Goedjn

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:43:13 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

| Tom Miller wrote:
|
| On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 10:08:12 -0500, Duane Bozarth
| wrote:
|
| ...
| | Not totally independent if you'll simply look at the mercantile exchange
| | closing prices for the two commodities you'll find they're quite highly
| | (positively) correlated.
|
| Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Gasoline futures surged 14 percent last
| week while crude oil prices gained only 2 percent.
| ...
|
| Ant that is still a positive correlation...it would be difficult to
| conceive of them being totally independent as one is the raw material
| for the other.
|
| And, of course, I started this subthread branch by pointing out that
| there are open markets for both products...


There was a large disparity between gasoline futures and crude futures
last week. It's a 12% difference. That's a lot.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

There are independant gas stations. There are even independant
gas-stations that don't rise their prices when people start to
panic. Those are the ones that had 3-mile lines on the
first day, and have been out of gas ever since.

--Goedjn

A local independedant station was told to raise prices and they did. Two
hours later they were told to raise them again, but did not want to as they
wanted to take care of their loyal customers. Simply put, if you ever want
to get gas again, raise the price.

Nice story, but I doubt it's the whole story...

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

There are independant gas stations. There are even independant
gas-stations that don't rise their prices when people start to
panic. Those are the ones that had 3-mile lines on the
first day, and have been out of gas ever since.

--Goedjn

A local independedant station was told to raise prices and they did. Two
hours later they were told to raise them again, but did not want to as they
wanted to take care of their loyal customers. Simply put, if you ever want
to get gas again, raise the price.

Tom Miller wrote:

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 13:43:13 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

| Tom Miller wrote:
|
| On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 10:08:12 -0500, Duane Bozarth
| wrote:
|
| ...
| | Not totally independent if you'll simply look at the mercantile exchange
| | closing prices for the two commodities you'll find they're quite highly
| | (positively) correlated.
|
| Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Gasoline futures surged 14 percent last
| week while crude oil prices gained only 2 percent.
| ...
|
| Ant that is still a positive correlation...it would be difficult to
| conceive of them being totally independent as one is the raw material
| for the other.
|
| And, of course, I started this subthread branch by pointing out that
| there are open markets for both products...

There was a large disparity between gasoline futures and crude futures
last week. It's a 12% difference. That's a lot.

Short term fluctuations are not unusual...just look at the data over a
period of time...