Hi everyone. Newbie here. We are in the process of preparing our
house for sale.

All our "new" windows installed have blown and are all fogged up. We
can't afford to replace them all and they are out of warranty.

Ok to my problem. We have 3 of the glass from pation doors installed
as windows in a sunroom my husband built. The seal is shot on them
too, but is much more obvious because of course, they get the sun
every day and you can see water condensing and running in them.

Is there a way to get the water out? If we drilled a hole in the
outside pane would the whole window shatter? Or would just the
outside one shatter?

Thanks for any input.



--
Helen Peagram

stranraerscot at gmail dot com

FREECYCLEMOM wrote:
Hi everyone. Newbie here. We are in the process of preparing our
house for sale.

All our "new" windows installed have blown and are all fogged up. We
can't afford to replace them all and they are out of warranty.

Ok to my problem. We have 3 of the glass from pation doors installed
as windows in a sunroom my husband built. The seal is shot on them
too, but is much more obvious because of course, they get the sun
every day and you can see water condensing and running in them.

Is there a way to get the water out? If we drilled a hole in the
outside pane would the whole window shatter? Or would just the
outside one shatter?

Thanks for any input.

Sorry, the answer is no. Sure you could drill a hole and the liquid
water could come out, but remember that the water got in there through even
smaller holes. It will just get back in.

You may want to check about replacement glass. Not replacement windows,
but just the glass. Most cities have a local source of replacement sealed
windows. It may be cheaper than you think. It is a lot cheaper than new
windows. If you are handy, you may be able to do the work yourself.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"FREECYCLEMOM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi everyone. Newbie here. We are in the process of preparing our
house for sale.

All our "new" windows installed have blown and are all fogged up. We
can't afford to replace them all and they are out of warranty.

Ok to my problem. We have 3 of the glass from pation doors installed
as windows in a sunroom my husband built. The seal is shot on them
too, but is much more obvious because of course, they get the sun
every day and you can see water condensing and running in them.

Is there a way to get the water out? If we drilled a hole in the
outside pane would the whole window shatter? Or would just the
outside one shatter?

Thanks for any input.



--
Helen Peagram

stranraerscot at gmail dot com

the glass may be tempered, in which case, drilling them would shatter them.

you could drill a hole in the frame and the material between the edges of
the glass, but not much would come out, if anything.

FREECYCLEMOM wrote:

All our "new" windows installed have blown and are all fogged up...
We have 3 of the glass from pation doors installed as windows in
a sunroom my husband built. The seal is shot on them too, but
is much more obvious because of course, they get the sun
every day and you can see water condensing and running in them.

Is there a way to get the water out? If we drilled a hole in the
outside pane would the whole window shatter?

Maybe, but as already mentioned, you might somehow drill a hole in the
material at the edge between the two panes and vent that to the outdoors.
Warm air rises and humid air rises, so that hole should eventually move
the water vapor outdoors, assuming it's less humid outdoors and the ne
exit hole is larger than the tiny leak entrance holes.

If the condensed water has etched the glass (a white frosting), you might
take the panes apart and remove the frosting with a weak HF solution made
from greenhouse "glass cleaning crystals."

Nick

Is there a way to get the water out? If we drilled a hole in the
outside pane would the whole window shatter?

Maybe, but as already mentioned, you might somehow drill a hole in the
material at the edge between the two panes and vent that to the outdoors.
Warm air rises and humid air rises, so that hole should eventually move
the water vapor outdoors, assuming it's less humid outdoors and the ne
exit hole is larger than the tiny leak entrance holes.

....and plug holes with Elmer's glue like I do with my headlights :-)
(Again with the disclaimer against tempered glass).

If the condensed water has etched the glass (a white frosting), you might
take the panes apart and remove the frosting with a weak HF solution made
from greenhouse "glass cleaning crystals."

I didn't realize that you could buy even dilute HF solutions. HF
likes nerves and calcium/bone, etc. I'd try a little CLR or
hydrochloric acid first.

Darryl.

"Maybe, but as already mentioned, you might somehow drill a hole in the

material at the edge between the two panes and vent that to the
outdoors.
Warm air rises and humid air rises, so that hole should eventually move

the water vapor outdoors, assuming it's less humid outdoors and the ne
exit hole is larger than the tiny leak entrance holes.

If the condensed water has etched the glass (a white frosting), you
might
take the panes apart and remove the frosting with a weak HF solution
made
from greenhouse "glass cleaning crystals."

Nick "


More practical real world advice from the resident egg head.

...you might somehow drill a hole in the material at the edge between
the two panes and vent that to the outdoors. Warm air rises and humid
air rises, so that hole should eventually move the water vapor outdoors...

Make the hole near the top. Diffusion helps too.

If the condensed water has etched the glass (a white frosting), you might
take the panes apart and remove the frosting with a weak HF solution
made from greenhouse "glass cleaning crystals."

Buy 'em at

http://www.carlinsales.com/PDF/MASTE...PP_124-127.pdf

or your local greenhouse supplier.

Nick

wrote:
"Maybe, but as already mentioned, you might somehow drill a hole in
the

material at the edge between the two panes and vent that to the
outdoors.
Warm air rises and humid air rises, so that hole should eventually
move

the water vapor outdoors, assuming it's less humid outdoors and the ne
exit hole is larger than the tiny leak entrance holes.

If the condensed water has etched the glass (a white frosting), you
might
take the panes apart and remove the frosting with a weak HF solution
made
from greenhouse "glass cleaning crystals."

Nick "


More practical real world advice from the resident egg head.

Just a couple of notes.

Just for the record, the humidity inside vs outside is not the proper
measure. Frankly I can't recall the proper name for it, but we should be
talking about the moisture content. Humidity is a measure of the moisture
content measured as a percentage of the total possible in the air at a given
temperature. If you take air at 50% humidity and heat it, it will reduce
the percentage say to 25% but the same total amount of water will still be
there. If you cool that same 50% humidity air the humidity will increase up
to 100% at witch it will become fog (or super saturated).

The meaning of all this is that to assure that they inside of the window
remains fog free, you would need to maintain air circulation from the cool
side of the glass (out side during winter, inside during summer with A/C on)
and vented out to the other side. You would also need a good amount of
circulation or you would likely get condensation when the temperature
changed during the day or night, cooling the window.

If venting a window worked, then it would never fog up since it is the
breaking of the seal, creating a vent, that causes the fogging to begin
with.

The only real fix it replacement.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Joseph Meehan wrote:

...you might somehow drill a hole in the material at the edge between
the two panes and vent that to the outdoors. Warm air rises and humid
air rises, so that hole should eventually move the water vapor outdoors,
assuming it's less humid outdoors and the new exit hole is larger than
the tiny leak entrance holes.

Two holes are better. We might remove the window and drill two holes down
from the top through the wood into the window cavity, then drill two more
from outside to inside far enough to meet the vertical holes in the wood.

Just for the record, the humidity inside vs outside is not the proper measure.

Absolute is, relative isn't, but we also need to account for bouyancy.

Humidity is a measure of the moisture content measured as a percentage of
the total possible in the air at a given temperature.

That's relative humidity. Absolute humidity is the water to air weight ratio.
For example, w = 0.0133 pounds of water per pound of dry air on an average
July day in Phila.

The meaning of all this is that to assure that they inside of the window
remains fog free, you would need to maintain air circulation from the cool
side of the glass (out side during winter, inside during summer with A/C on)
and vented out to the other side. You would also need a good amount of
circulation or you would likely get condensation when the temperature
changed during the day or night, cooling the window.

I disagree. We don't need circulation between two sides, IMO. We just need
to assure that the temperature of the air in the window cavity is above the
dew point of that air. This doesn't seem difficult... w = 0.0133 corresponds
to Pa = 29.921/(1+0.62198/w) = 0.626 "Hg, with Td = 9621/(17.863-ln)Pa)-460
= 64.9 F. The average daily min temp in July is 67.2 F. With a 64.9 F cavity
temp, indoor air might be 2x64.9-67.2 = 62.5, at night, when nobody's looking
out the fogged window. This also requires drier indoor air to mysteriously
stop leaking into the window cavity and reducing its dew point on that night.

Nick

wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

...you might somehow drill a hole in the material at the edge between
the two panes and vent that to the outdoors. Warm air rises and humid
air rises, so that hole should eventually move the water vapor
outdoors, assuming it's less humid outdoors and the new exit hole is
larger than
the tiny leak entrance holes.

Note. The above quote was from I had quoted it,
I don't know how it ended up looking like I wrote it to start with.


Two holes are better. We might remove the window and drill two holes
down from the top through the wood into the window cavity, then drill
two more from outside to inside far enough to meet the vertical holes
in the wood.

Just for the record, the humidity inside vs outside is not the proper
measure.

Absolute is, relative isn't, but we also need to account for bouyancy.

I don't know about "bouyancy" (frankly I don't know what it means in
this context :-) ) but I agree with the relative vs absolute issue.


Humidity is a measure of the moisture content measured as a
percentage of
the total possible in the air at a given temperature.

That's relative humidity. Absolute humidity is the water to air
weight ratio. For example, w = 0.0133 pounds of water per pound of
dry air on an average July day in Phila.

I agree, but that is what most people mean when they refer to humidity.


The meaning of all this is that to assure that they inside of the
window remains fog free, you would need to maintain air circulation
from the cool side of the glass (out side during winter, inside
during summer with A/C on) and vented out to the other side. You
would also need a good amount of circulation or you would likely get
condensation when the temperature
changed during the day or night, cooling the window.

I disagree. We don't need circulation between two sides, IMO. We just
need to assure that the temperature of the air in the window cavity
is above the dew point of that air.

No. You need the temperature of the air above the dew point AND the
temperature of the glass surface facing the inside above the dew point as
well.

This doesn't seem difficult... w
= 0.0133 corresponds to Pa = 29.921/(1+0.62198/w) = 0.626 "Hg, with
Td = 9621/(17.863-ln)Pa)-460 = 64.9 F. The average daily min temp in
July is 67.2 F. With a 64.9 F cavity temp, indoor air might be
2x64.9-67.2 = 62.5, at night, when nobody's looking out the fogged
window. This also requires drier indoor air to mysteriously stop
leaking into the window cavity and reducing its dew point on that
night.

Nick

However the end result of real life is, they don't fog up as long as
they remain sealed and they do fog up when they loose their seal I don't
think we are likely to find that increasing the leaks as a good solution to
the problem caused by leaks to start with. I suppose under certain
conditions it might work and it is cheap to do, if you do it yourself.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On 13 May 2005 17:51:25 -0400, wrote:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

...you might somehow drill a hole in the material at the edge between
the two panes and vent that to the outdoors. Warm air rises and humid
air rises, so that hole should eventually move the water vapor outdoors,
assuming it's less humid outdoors and the new exit hole is larger than
the tiny leak entrance holes.

Two holes are better. We might remove the window and drill two holes down
from the top through the wood into the window cavity, then drill two more
from outside to inside far enough to meet the vertical holes in the wood.

Just for the record, the humidity inside vs outside is not the proper measure.

Absolute is, relative isn't, but we also need to account for bouyancy.

Humidity is a measure of the moisture content measured as a percentage of
the total possible in the air at a given temperature.

That's relative humidity. Absolute humidity is the water to air weight ratio.
For example, w = 0.0133 pounds of water per pound of dry air on an average
July day in Phila.

The meaning of all this is that to assure that they inside of the window
remains fog free, you would need to maintain air circulation from the cool
side of the glass (out side during winter, inside during summer with A/C on)
and vented out to the other side. You would also need a good amount of
circulation or you would likely get condensation when the temperature
changed during the day or night, cooling the window.

I disagree. We don't need circulation between two sides, IMO. We just need
to assure that the temperature of the air in the window cavity is above the
dew point of that air. This doesn't seem difficult... w = 0.0133 corresponds

If you can get a hole of any kind in there, wouldn't the sensible
thing to do be squirt dessicant in there with a syringe, and then plug
the hole?

Goedjn wrote:

wrote:

...you might somehow drill a hole in the material at the edge between
the two panes and vent that to the outdoors. Warm air rises and humid
air rises, so that hole should eventually move the water vapor outdoors,
assuming it's less humid outdoors and the new exit hole is larger than
the tiny leak entrance holes.

Two holes are better. We might remove the window and drill two holes down
from the top through the wood into the window cavity, then drill two more
from outside to inside far enough to meet the vertical holes in the wood.

Or drill them all the way through to the inside, and plug them as needed
inside in wintertime and outside in summertime to "put the vapor barrier
on the warm side."

If you can get a hole of any kind in there, wouldn't the sensible thing
to do be squirt dessicant in there with a syringe, and then plug the hole?

You might try that with triethylene glycol, but it would be a temporary fix,
if the leak is still there.

Nick

Joseph Meehan wrote:

wrote:

...you might somehow drill a hole in the material at the edge between
the two panes and vent that to the outdoors. Warm air rises and humid
air rises, so that hole should eventually move the water vapor outdoors,
assuming it's less humid outdoors and the new exit hole is larger than
the tiny leak entrance holes.

...the humidity inside vs outside is not the proper measure.

Absolute is, relative isn't, but we also need to account for bouyancy.

I don't know about "bouyancy"...

Warm air rises and humid air rises... T = 70 F dry air weighs 0.075 lb/ft^3,
and this decreases with temperature as (460+70)/(460+T.) The density also
decreases with increasing moisture content, since the molecular weight of
water vapor is about 18 vs 29 for air... 70 F air at saturation (w = 0.0158)
weighs 0.073 lb/ft^3. A closed cavity with a hole near the top is a natural
"cold trap" as well as a "dry trap." (By contrast, igloos are heat traps.)

In wintertime, any warm or moist air that leaks into a glass cavity from
inside a house is likely to find its way out the top of the cavity via
a larger hole by bouyancy as well as diffusion. In summertime, with AC
in a house and cavity air cooler than outdoor air, warmer outdoor air is
lighter than cavity air, so it's unlikely to enter a hole at the top of
the cavity. Outdoor air with more absolute humidity is also lighter than
cavity air, so it's unlikely to enter a hole at the top of the cavity.

...they don't fog up as long as they remain sealed and they do fog up
when they loose their seal I don't think we are likely to find that
increasing the leaks as a good solution to the problem caused by leaks
to start with.

Drilling more holes in the TOP of a leaky boat might help a little :-)

Nick

wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

wrote:

...you might somehow drill a hole in the material at the edge
between the two panes and vent that to the outdoors. Warm air rises
and humid air rises, so that hole should eventually move the water
vapor outdoors, assuming it's less humid outdoors and the new exit
hole is larger than the tiny leak entrance holes.

...the humidity inside vs outside is not the proper measure.

Absolute is, relative isn't, but we also need to account for
bouyancy.

I don't know about "bouyancy"...

Warm air rises and humid air rises... T = 70 F dry air weighs 0.075
lb/ft^3, and this decreases with temperature as (460+70)/(460+T.) The
density also decreases with increasing moisture content, since the
molecular weight of water vapor is about 18 vs 29 for air... 70 F air
at saturation (w = 0.0158) weighs 0.073 lb/ft^3. A closed cavity with
a hole near the top is a natural "cold trap" as well as a "dry trap."
(By contrast, igloos are heat traps.)

In wintertime, any warm or moist air that leaks into a glass cavity
from inside a house is likely to find its way out the top of the
cavity via
a larger hole by bouyancy as well as diffusion. In summertime, with AC
in a house and cavity air cooler than outdoor air, warmer outdoor air
is lighter than cavity air, so it's unlikely to enter a hole at the
top of
the cavity. Outdoor air with more absolute humidity is also lighter
than cavity air, so it's unlikely to enter a hole at the top of the
cavity.

...they don't fog up as long as they remain sealed and they do fog up
when they loose their seal I don't think we are likely to find that
increasing the leaks as a good solution to the problem caused by leaks
to start with.

Drilling more holes in the TOP of a leaky boat might help a little :-)

Nick

I really don't know and have not checked, but is it not likely that in
the confined space of a window would diffusion not even out the moisture
content before it would become a serious factor in air movement? I will
take you figures for the weight of moist air vs dry air as you presented
them.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Joseph Meehan wrote:

...is it not likely that in the confined space of a window would diffusion
not even out the moisture content before it would become a serious factor
in air movement?

Convection is usually more important. IIRC, Fick's law says 0.2RhoAdw/dx g/s
of water vapor would move through area A cm^2 with a dw/dx absolute humidity
gradient normal to A, where Rho is water vapor density in g/cm^3, but there's
still a bouyant force from humidity if the average water vapor density in
the cavity is less than the density in the air surrounding it, whether the
density in the cavity is uniform or not.

There are times when holes in the cavity top won't help, eg when it's close
to 100% RH indoors and outdoors at the same temp and one temp drops, which
might cause temporary fogging, or when it's very humid outdoors for a long
time in summertime with house AC and the window cavity leaks air out at the
bottom which gets replaced with warm humid air from the top holes. That's
when venting to the indoors would help.

Nick

...IIRC, Fick's law says 0.2RhoAdw/dx g/s of water vapor would move
through area A cm^2 with a dw/dx absolute humidity gradient normal to
A, where Rho is water vapor density in g/cm^3

Rho = 0.000018 g/cm^3 at 70 F, so I = 3.6x10^-6Adw/dx g/s. A 1mx2mx1cm
glass cavity with a horizontal flow area A = 100 cm^2 and wu = 0.005 in
the upper half and wl = 0.010 in the lower half and dw/dx = (wl-wu)/100
= 5x10^-5 might have an initial vapor flow I = 3.6x10^-6x100x5x10^-5 =
1.8x10^-8 g/s from bottom to top by diffusion alone. We might have
something like this with an RC time constant, electrically-speaking:

Vl R Vu
---www---
| I--- |
--- C/2 --- C/2
--- ---
| |
- -

The upper and lower window cavities each have 10K cm^3 of volume, and
each contains about 12 grams of air. Initially the lower cavity
contains about 0.12 grams of water vapor, and the upper contains 0.06
grams. Moving 0.01 grams of water from lower to upper makes this 0.11
and 0.07, with wl = 0.11/12 = 0.00917 and wu = 0.07/12 = 0.00583 and
dw/dx = Vl-Vu = 3.33x10^-5, so C = IdT/dV = .01/(5x10^-5-3.33x10^-5) =
600. R = dV/I = 5x10^-5/1.8x10^-8 = 2778, so RC = 1.67 million seconds,
or 463 hours, or 19.3 days. After 19.3 days, diffusion alone might
reduce the initial 100% difference in absolute humidity to 100/e = 37%.

If air in a glass cavity starts with wg = 0.0079 (like 70 F air at 50%
RH) and wa = 0.0025 on an average 30 F January day in Phila, and the R2
window with (70-30)/R2 = 20 Btu/h-ft^2 of heat flowing through it has
an R0.2 outdoor air film and two R0.9 still air films, the water vapor
might initially condense on the inside of the outdoor pane at 30+0.2x20
= 34 F, reducing the vapor pressure Pa to e^(17.863-9621/(460+34)) =
0.1993 "Hg, with wg = 0.62198/(29.921/Pa-1) = 0.0042 and dw/dx =
(0.0042-0.0025)/5cm = 3.4x10^-4. This might diffuse to outdoors through
a 0.08 cm^2x5cm (1/8"x2") hole at I = 0.2x1.8x10^-5x0.08x3.4x10^-4 =
9.8x10^-11 g/s, approximately. Removing 0.0079x12 = 0.095 g of water
this way would take 0.095/I = 970 million seconds, ie 31 years :-)

But warm air rises. A cubic foot of cavity air at about 43 F and
100x0.0042/0.0058 = 72% RH weighs 0.0787 lb, vs outdoor air at 30 F and
100x0.0025/0.0035 = 72% RH and 0.0809 lb/ft^3, which is equivalent to a
dT = 15 F temp diff. If cfm = 16.6Asqrt(HdT) and A = 8.5x10^-5 (for 1
of 2 1/8" holes) and h = 6' and dT = 15 F, 0.013 cfm might flow through
the window cavity, replacing its 0.71 ft^3 of air every 0.71/0.013 = 54
minutes.

Nick