I recently hired a plumber to fix a few leaks and drips. He spend about
45 minutes trying to fix my leaking bathroom sink, but failed and said I
am SOL. He couldn't get the seat out because it was stripped, and
smoothing it out didn't do the trick. The drip is getting worse daily.

First question I have is should he have charged me for 45 minutes of labor
even though he failed to fix the sink?

I'm also now stuck facing a costly remodel of my bathroom. The sink is 50
years old and the vanity is custom. If I replace the sink, I will have
to tear out the vanity, the ceramic tile splash-back, and put in new
flooring because there is nothing else on the market that fits. Not
something I want to do. The plumber said it is possible to pull the sink
out of the wall so that the faucet valves can be replaced, but this would
likely be more expensive than installing a new vanity sink.
Sigh...

Any advice? Should I call a 2nd plumber? I question the man's competence...

Some things can`t be fixed and he tried , If you like it remove it and
replace the plumbing. He put in the time so he should be paid. If you
don`t trust him you could pay someone again for likely the same answer.

First question I have is should he have charged me for 45 minutes of labor
even though he failed to fix the sink?

Do you refuse to pay your doctor when he can't cure an incurable disease?


Any advice? Should I call a 2nd plumber? I question the man's
competence...

I would call a 2nd plumber, but explain the problem ahead of time. If he
thinks he can fix it, let him try. Ordinarily I wouldn't suggest that, but
in view of the cost for not being able to fix it...

Call a second plumber. There are ways to get the seat out. Tom

"pgg" wrote in message

First question I have is should he have charged me for 45 minutes of labor
even though he failed to fix the sink?

Sure. You asked him to come out and he did. He tried, but evidently it
cannot be fixed. Sometimes that happens and you don't know until you try.



I'm also now stuck facing a costly remodel of my bathroom. The sink is 50
years old and the vanity is custom.


Any advice? Should I call a 2nd plumber? I question the man's
competence...

I question your ability to understand thing mechanical. Sure, call the
second ;plumber and be prepared to pay him not to fix it. After 50 years,
things wear. He cannot add metal to a worn seat. Washers only take up some
much slack. If a bearing wears out on a motor, do you fix it or replace it?
If the rings on your car engine wear out, do you fix them or replace them?
If the soles of your shoes sear out, to you fix them or replace them?

Only way to avoid the re-model is to buy a new house. This one is worn out
already.

pgg wrote:

I recently hired a plumber to fix a few leaks and drips. He spend about
45 minutes trying to fix my leaking bathroom sink, but failed and said I
am SOL. He couldn't get the seat out because it was stripped, and
smoothing it out didn't do the trick. The drip is getting worse daily.

First question I have is should he have charged me for 45 minutes of labor
even though he failed to fix the sink?

I'm also now stuck facing a costly remodel of my bathroom. The sink is 50
years old and the vanity is custom. If I replace the sink, I will have
to tear out the vanity, the ceramic tile splash-back, and put in new
flooring because there is nothing else on the market that fits. Not
something I want to do. The plumber said it is possible to pull the sink
out of the wall so that the faucet valves can be replaced, but this would
likely be more expensive than installing a new vanity sink.
Sigh...

Any advice? Should I call a 2nd plumber? I question the man's competence...


It sounds like the faucets come out of the wall and not up through the
back rim of the sink.

Or maybe they are coming up through the rear rim of the sink but the
plumber thinks there's nothing made today which can replace them?

Is that what's making just replacing the faucets such a big job?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

"pgg" wrote in message
news
I recently hired a plumber to fix a few leaks and drips. He spend about
45 minutes trying to fix my leaking bathroom sink, but failed and said I
am SOL. He couldn't get the seat out because it was stripped, and
smoothing it out didn't do the trick. The drip is getting worse daily.

I haven't had one stuck like that even on an old house. Try penetration oil
if that doesn't do it try a little heat - that always worked. Careful not
too much or you'll have to re-solder the fittings - assuming you have copper
pipes.

OP-


Is it the sink that leaks (unlikely) or one of the faucet valves?

I've seen a lot of bathrooms & I'm having trouble imagining how a bad
faucet could require a "a costly remodel of my bathroom" to remedy.

How about a picture?

cheers
Bob

pgg wrote:
I recently hired a plumber to fix a few leaks and drips. He spend
about 45 minutes trying to fix my leaking bathroom sink, but failed
and said I
am SOL. He couldn't get the seat out because it was stripped, and
smoothing it out didn't do the trick. The drip is getting worse
daily.

First question I have is should he have charged me for 45 minutes of
labor even though he failed to fix the sink?

If your boss gave you a job and you spent the day working on it and
found out that it could not be done, would you expect to be paid?

If the plumber was charging you based on a fixed fee for the job, then
no he should not be paid, but if he was working by the hour, the answer is a
clear yes, he should be paid and if you don't, you may rightly end up with a
lien on your home.


I'm also now stuck facing a costly remodel of my bathroom. The sink
is 50 years old and the vanity is custom. If I replace the sink, I
will have
to tear out the vanity, the ceramic tile splash-back, and put in new
flooring because there is nothing else on the market that fits. Not
something I want to do. The plumber said it is possible to pull the
sink
out of the wall so that the faucet valves can be replaced, but this
would likely be more expensive than installing a new vanity sink.
Sigh...

Any advice? Should I call a 2nd plumber? I question the man's
competence...

I see nothing that would indicate your first plumber needs replaced.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia's Muire duit

Thas a custom vanity alrighty.

So rip it out or fix it or hire another pro or leave it alone take yur
pick

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 02:34:29 GMT, pgg
wrote:

I recently hired a plumber to fix a few leaks and drips. He spend about
45 minutes trying to fix my leaking bathroom sink, but failed and said I
am SOL. He couldn't get the seat out because it was stripped, and
smoothing it out didn't do the trick. The drip is getting worse daily.

First question I have is should he have charged me for 45 minutes of labor
even though he failed to fix the sink?
Yes the plumber should be paid for his time.



I'm also now stuck facing a costly remodel of my bathroom. The sink is 50
years old and the vanity is custom. If I replace the sink, I will have
to tear out the vanity, the ceramic tile splash-back, and put in new
flooring because there is nothing else on the market that fits. Not
something I want to do. The plumber said it is possible to pull the sink
out of the wall so that the faucet valves can be replaced, but this would
likely be more expensive than installing a new vanity sink.
Sigh...

Any advice? Should I call a 2nd plumber? I question the man's competence...


I would call a second plumber just because it is worth another minimum
fee to be sure that the faucet can't be salvaged. Everyone has
different experience and the second guy might have a trick the first
one doesn't know about.

Why can't you just replace the faucet? Even in a custom sink you
should be able to find something new that can be made to work.

Steve B.

PGG wrote:
I've seen a lot of bathrooms & I'm having trouble imagining how a bad
faucet could require a "a costly remodel of my bathroom" to remedy.

How about a picture?



Ok, here is a couple pics (excuse the clutter!!). Notice that the ceramic
tile splash back juts right up against the sink. And vanity is also
custom-made for the sink and is only 13 inches deep (small bathroom).

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/papago...82.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/papago...3e.jpg&.src=ph

The plumber I hired seemed to think that pulling the sink to replace the
valves would be extremely costly. If it were $300 or so, I would do it
simple because we like the sink and vanity as is. A vanity/sink/faucet
that fits and that would work in this bathroom is $330. I imagine the
installation is another $300 or so?? Then I have to deal with new
flooring and a new splash-back.


Ah, now I see what you mean.

I don't think there's an easy answer for you other than getting another
plumber or a determined DIY to get the seat out. I bet I could do it by
using a ground down piece of hacksaw blade and slitting the seat just up
to the threads so it will colapse enough to loosen. Then install a new seat.

Try asking around and see if you can find someone willing to give it a try.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

According to PGG :
The plumber I hired seemed to think that pulling the sink to replace the
valves would be extremely costly. If it were $300 or so, I would do it
simple because we like the sink and vanity as is. A vanity/sink/faucet
that fits and that would work in this bathroom is $330. I imagine the
installation is another $300 or so?? Then I have to deal with new
flooring and a new splash-back.

Is the other side of the wall behind the sink accessible? You might
be able to replace the valve from t'other side. If this is feasible,
and you can do the wall repairs, this won't cost much.

Depending on how the sink is fastened in, it _may_ be possible to
pull the sink out the front way, without disturbing the tile or
vanity. Perhaps simply by cutting along the grout line above
the sink and loosening some hanger bolts. Then, once the valves are
redone, reinstall the sink and regrout. This is probably what
your plumber was thinking, and I'd expect that to cost about
$300-$400 (not including faucet), because of all the fuss/care over
the tile (praying that none get broken).
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"PGG" wrote in message
newsan.2005.04.11.13.38.32.333000@NO_SP_A_Myahoo .com...

I've seen a lot of bathrooms & I'm having trouble imagining how a bad
faucet could require a "a costly remodel of my bathroom" to remedy.

How about a picture?


Ok, here is a couple pics (excuse the clutter!!). Notice that the ceramic
tile splash back juts right up against the sink. And vanity is also
custom-made for the sink and is only 13 inches deep (small bathroom).


http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/papago...82.jpg&.src=ph

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/papago...3e.jpg&.src=ph

The plumber I hired seemed to think that pulling the sink to replace the
valves would be extremely costly. If it were $300 or so, I would do it
simple because we like the sink and vanity as is. A vanity/sink/faucet
that fits and that would work in this bathroom is $330. I imagine the
installation is another $300 or so?? Then I have to deal with new
flooring and a new splash-back.



I have seen an EZ-out bolt extractor remove a stripped seat. You have to be
prepared to bite the bullet and/or sign a damage release before plumber or
handyman would try it. If it fails you will not be able to use the faucet
until it is replaced.

I have seen this old style sink before. I imagine there is a replacement
faucet some where at some price but I am not aware of it. If I were you and
wanted to try and find one I would look for some one selling T & S Brass
products. They did and still do sell the wall mounted kitchen sink faucet
that is most similar to this unit.

You may lose one course of tile directly above the sink if you have to
remove the sink. I am guessing that the tile was added after the sink was
installed. If you can look up behind the sink, see tile and a hanger bar
mounted on top of the tile, I am wrong and all you need to do is repair or
replace the faucet.

Most plumbers will run from a job like this because it will be an all day
event and most customers will be really ****ed when the get a $500 bill for
labor to replace a faucet.

Best wishes,


Colbyt

"PGG" wrote in message
newsan.2005.04.11.13.38.32.333000@NO_SP_A_Myahoo .com...

I've seen a lot of bathrooms & I'm having trouble imagining how a
bad
faucet could require a "a costly remodel of my bathroom" to
remedy.

How about a picture?


Ok, here is a couple pics (excuse the clutter!!). Notice that the
ceramic
tile splash back juts right up against the sink. And vanity is
also
custom-made for the sink and is only 13 inches deep (small
bathroom).


Let's try a little long distance ESP and see what happens:

Original sink.
Ceramic installed at a later time w/o removing sink. Sink now
locked in.
Base and counter installed at later time w/o removing sink. Sink
was locked in.

This bath have a toilet in it?
ESP...ESP... ESP...
Toilet was in corner by door.
Base unit hides where toilet used to be.
Base/counter retro to fit sink that could not be removed because it
is locked in by the ceramic tile that was installed w/o removing and
remounting sink.

w/o actually looking at it 1st person I can not say for certain, but
unless it possible to make a repair on the faucet, it does look like
the plumber did all he could w/o attempting to remove the sink from
the wall w/o damaging sink or tile. Sink has to be removed to
replace fixture. Sink must be lifted UP to remove.

Not in pictu ESP... ESP... ESP...
Tub shower, window with rotting frame and lose glass, walls soft
and/or crumbling in places especially around window and where it
meets the tub and evidence or many attempts to patch lose/crumbling
plaster.

Sound about right or was my ESP seeing the bath down the street
because it does not work that far?? ;-)


I understand the bath is suppose to be the most bang for the buck
when it comes to increasing selling value of the house.
Maybe it's time to rip it all out to the bare lath and modernize the
bath... including getting rid of the window and installing bath vent
fan. ;-)

Let's try a little long distance ESP and see what happens:

Original sink.
Ceramic installed at a later time w/o removing sink. Sink now
locked in.
Base and counter installed at later time w/o removing sink. Sink
was locked in.

This bath have a toilet in it?
ESP...ESP... ESP...
Toilet was in corner by door.
Base unit hides where toilet used to be.
Base/counter retro to fit sink that could not be removed because it
is locked in by the ceramic tile that was installed w/o removing and
remounting sink.

w/o actually looking at it 1st person I can not say for certain, but
unless it possible to make a repair on the faucet, it does look like
the plumber did all he could w/o attempting to remove the sink from
the wall w/o damaging sink or tile. Sink has to be removed to
replace fixture. Sink must be lifted UP to remove.

Not in pictu ESP... ESP... ESP...
Tub shower, window with rotting frame and lose glass, walls soft
and/or crumbling in places especially around window and where it
meets the tub and evidence or many attempts to patch lose/crumbling
plaster.

Sound about right or was my ESP seeing the bath down the street
because it does not work that far?? ;-)


I understand the bath is suppose to be the most bang for the buck
when it comes to increasing selling value of the house.
Maybe it's time to rip it all out to the bare lath and modernize the
bath... including getting rid of the window and installing bath vent
fan. ;-)

You are damn good. I've been in the house 2 years. From talking to my
neighbors, there used to be a window in the bathroom. There is no window
now and a plastic tub surround is now covering the wall (you can't tell
from the outside except for a section of the house that looks sort of odd
without a window). At least they did a good job with the outside siding.

There was a bathroom fan present and the installation was terrible. It
wasn't vented properly. About 3 months ago I installed a nice new
bathroom fan and vented it through the roof (I hired a contractor to
install the roof vent)

I don't think the toilet was ever moved because I honestly can't imagine
where else it would fit.

Your theory about the counter/vanity being installed around the sink is
probably correct.

We are leaning towards installing a new sink/vanity. I painted the bath a
month ago. I will need to put in new flooring and repaint the section of
the wall where the ceramic tile will have to be removed.

Not sure if replacing the toilet makes sense. It works fine. I will also
probably keep the mirror because it is build into the wall.

Since your ESP seems spot on, any other advice?

The pictures help immensely. Let's look again....

I'm making a lot of assumptions here. But I'm not sure you need to
remodel the whole bathroom.

First, you might be able to find someone who can remove the old seat.
Finding a replacement might still be difficult, however. Keep in mind,
the plumber was probably trying to do you a favor. He'll spend a lot
of time, trying to remove the seat, with no guarantee it will work. He
would have had to charge you a boat load of money...and you were
already complaining :-)

NOTE: TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK
I think, you can replace the faucet without a complete remodel. Not
easy, but it can be done. The sink either sits on the cabinets you
have, or hangs on the wall. First disconnect the plumbing. Cut the
old caulking out and if the plumbing is disconnected, try lifting the
sink out. It should pretty much lift straight up. Working it up, with
the tile there, will be the most difficult.

Again, once the plumbing is disconnected, the sink should pretty much
lift straight up. The tile (if installed after the sink was installed,
which is likely) will be right next to the sink and may prevent you
from lifting the sink straight up. That will be your problem.

Old homes (not completely fixed up) are for:

people with $$$"s
pros
or experienced capable diy'rs

been there, done that

for the last 25 years & I had 20 years full time apprenticeship
before that.

your situation would be challenging (but not impossible) to say the
least.

Old house are a lot of work, that is, expensive to have fixed!!

can you access the bottom side of the sink? if so, you could 4.5 grind
off the existing facucets & replace. Hard ot tell from here.

I've got a 1930's lavender pedestal sink with a drain assembly
impossbile to remove; will take days to grind out $$$'s unless I
do it myself.

cheers
Bob

"pgg" wrote in message
news
Let's try a little long distance ESP and see what happens:

Original sink.
Ceramic installed at a later time w/o removing sink. Sink now
locked in.
Base and counter installed at later time w/o removing sink. Sink
was locked in.

This bath have a toilet in it?
ESP...ESP... ESP...
Toilet was in corner by door.
Base unit hides where toilet used to be.
Base/counter retro to fit sink that could not be removed because
it
is locked in by the ceramic tile that was installed w/o removing
and
remounting sink.

w/o actually looking at it 1st person I can not say for certain,
but
unless it possible to make a repair on the faucet, it does look
like
the plumber did all he could w/o attempting to remove the sink
from
the wall w/o damaging sink or tile. Sink has to be removed to
replace fixture. Sink must be lifted UP to remove.

Not in pictu ESP... ESP... ESP...
Tub shower, window with rotting frame and lose glass, walls soft
and/or crumbling in places especially around window and where it
meets the tub and evidence or many attempts to patch
lose/crumbling
plaster.

Sound about right or was my ESP seeing the bath down the street
because it does not work that far?? ;-)


I understand the bath is suppose to be the most bang for the buck
when it comes to increasing selling value of the house.
Maybe it's time to rip it all out to the bare lath and modernize
the
bath... including getting rid of the window and installing bath
vent
fan. ;-)

You are damn good. I've been in the house 2 years. From talking
to my
neighbors, there used to be a window in the bathroom. There is no
window
now and a plastic tub surround is now covering the wall (you can't
tell
from the outside except for a section of the house that looks sort
of odd
without a window). At least they did a good job with the outside
siding.

There was a bathroom fan present and the installation was
terrible. It
wasn't vented properly. About 3 months ago I installed a nice new
bathroom fan and vented it through the roof (I hired a contractor
to
install the roof vent)

I don't think the toilet was ever moved because I honestly can't
imagine
where else it would fit.

Your theory about the counter/vanity being installed around the
sink is
probably correct.

We are leaning towards installing a new sink/vanity. I painted
the bath a
month ago. I will need to put in new flooring and repaint the
section of
the wall where the ceramic tile will have to be removed.

Not sure if replacing the toilet makes sense. It works fine. I
will also
probably keep the mirror because it is build into the wall.

Since your ESP seems spot on, any other advice?

Advice:
Investigate and plan.
First remove a section of the caulking to see if in fact the
lavatory is indeed locked in by the tile.
If not... faucet replacement is possible. Check availability and
price of suitable replacement, or get estimate from plumber that is
aware of your findings.

Locked in...
It may also be possible to remove 1 row of tiles above the sink so
it can be removed, repaired, remounted, tiles glued back into their
original positions, grout/caulk to finish and ignore anything else
you were thinking about replacing/repairing. You risk of breaking
tiles that you may not be able to find a match for.

Decide what if anything you want to salvage. It would be possible
to remove tile along the wall to the same height as the void left
after removing (in pieces) the lavatory, and filling this space with
other complimentary tile to form a back-splash the entire length of
the new top. This would also allow some fudge factor in positioning
the new lavatory for better appearance.

Remove all the tile. Be aware that damage to the underlying wall is
likely and if it is lath&plaster may be extensive enough to warrant
removing all the plaster and applying sheetrock over the lath....
yes.... over the lath unless the house was built late enough to have
smooth planed dimensioned lumber.

Was the tub surround applied over the tile?
This is another challenge but not an impossible task to remove tile
and/or plaster up to and if desired over the top of the surround if
the tile goes that far.

What shape is the tub and surround in?

Well as you can see, a simple washer is turning into an expensive
labor intensive remodel.

Check the sink. That is easy to recaulk. ;-)

BTY... the faucet MAY have the old fashioned non-replaceable BEVELED
seat (not sure when they quit making them) that you can ream a new
face to with a special, relatively inexpensive tool if you can still
find them. This could explain why the plumber cold not remove the
seat, but don't go pointing fingers yet.
You seldom ever see these old beveled seat fixtures any more.

Oh... Where is the toilet?
It is normally against a wall so there is a place to mount a TP
dispenser... like in the corner to the right of your sink.
Exception would be where the original build had a base cabinet to
hang a dispenser on, and then it is not uncommon to locate toilet
between tub and sink.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:15:54 GMT, pgg
wrote:

Let's try a little long distance ESP and see what happens:

Original sink.
Ceramic installed at a later time w/o removing sink. Sink now
locked in.
Base and counter installed at later time w/o removing sink. Sink
was locked in.

This bath have a toilet in it?
ESP...ESP... ESP...
Toilet was in corner by door.
Base unit hides where toilet used to be.
Base/counter retro to fit sink that could not be removed because it
is locked in by the ceramic tile that was installed w/o removing and
remounting sink.

w/o actually looking at it 1st person I can not say for certain, but
unless it possible to make a repair on the faucet, it does look like
the plumber did all he could w/o attempting to remove the sink from
the wall w/o damaging sink or tile. Sink has to be removed to
replace fixture. Sink must be lifted UP to remove.

Not in pictu ESP... ESP... ESP...
Tub shower, window with rotting frame and lose glass, walls soft
and/or crumbling in places especially around window and where it
meets the tub and evidence or many attempts to patch lose/crumbling
plaster.

Sound about right or was my ESP seeing the bath down the street
because it does not work that far?? ;-)


I understand the bath is suppose to be the most bang for the buck
when it comes to increasing selling value of the house.
Maybe it's time to rip it all out to the bare lath and modernize the
bath... including getting rid of the window and installing bath vent
fan. ;-)

You are damn good. I've been in the house 2 years. From talking to my
neighbors, there used to be a window in the bathroom. There is no window
now and a plastic tub surround is now covering the wall (you can't tell
from the outside except for a section of the house that looks sort of odd
without a window). At least they did a good job with the outside siding.

There was a bathroom fan present and the installation was terrible. It
wasn't vented properly. About 3 months ago I installed a nice new
bathroom fan and vented it through the roof (I hired a contractor to
install the roof vent)

I don't think the toilet was ever moved because I honestly can't imagine
where else it would fit.

Your theory about the counter/vanity being installed around the sink is
probably correct.

We are leaning towards installing a new sink/vanity. I painted the bath a
month ago. I will need to put in new flooring and repaint the section of
the wall where the ceramic tile will have to be removed.

Not sure if replacing the toilet makes sense. It works fine. I will also
probably keep the mirror because it is build into the wall.

Since your ESP seems spot on, any other advice?


Let me add my 2 cents
.. Your bathroom sink is very ugly. It is time to rip it out and
start over. I admit that it looks like something I would do, but
thats all the more reason to rip it out now while you have an excuse.

Ok, here is a couple pics (excuse the clutter!!). Notice that the ceramic
tile splash back juts right up against the sink. And vanity is also
custom-made for the sink and is only 13 inches deep (small bathroom).

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/papago...82.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/papago...3e.jpg&.src=ph

The plumber I hired seemed to think that pulling the sink to replace the
valves would be extremely costly. If it were $300 or so, I would do it
simple because we like the sink and vanity as is. A vanity/sink/faucet
that fits and that would work in this bathroom is $330. I imagine the
installation is another $300 or so?? Then I have to deal with new
flooring and a new splash-back.

Ok, if it was mine and I wanted to repair it, my first thought would
be what is on the other side of the wall? If whatever is there is
easier to repair than the tile (which would be pretty much anything) I
would probably try to open up the back wall and work through there.
That is assuming that I had screwed up the faucet beyond redemption
when I tried to use a dremel tool to remove the old seat. Dremels
should probably be put on the list with duct tape, silicone , sawzalls
and a BFH as fix all requirements.

Ok, if it was mine and I wanted to repair it, my first thought would
be what is on the other side of the wall? If whatever is there is
easier to repair than the tile (which would be pretty much anything) I
would probably try to open up the back wall and work through there.
That is assuming that I had screwed up the faucet beyond redemption
when I tried to use a dremel tool to remove the old seat. Dremels
should probably be put on the list with duct tape, silicone , sawzalls
and a BFH as fix all requirements.

I'd stick my head in that cabinet first, and see if there's
a way to get at the stub-out from underneath, first.