w_tom wrote:

Appliances already contains a dike.

A $50 microwave contains a dike but a $100 protector doesn't?

Internal protection
that can be overwhelmed if the primary and secondary
protection systems are not installed. What is the most
critical component of primary and secondary protection
systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that discussion.

They discussed it for me.


The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'.

Mine was insufficient with primary and secondary protection.


What is this transient picked up by a building's grounding
system especially during thunderstorms? If that transient
was so destructive, then nearby lightning would destroy
electronics literally tuned to the destructive frequencies of
lightning - AM radios. How many AM radios inside cars are
damaged after every thunderstorm.

What frequencies are most destructive? A car radio doesn't pick up a
surge from a building's grounding system because the car isn't grounded
to it (or to earth).


Why is that damage number virtualy zero? Because those
mythical surges created by nearby lightning strikes are
promoted only on myth - without numbers.

Did you ever read where lightning kills a whole herd of cows standing
under a tree? That's the ground surge. That's why in a thunderstorm
you should not stand near a tall tree and not lie down but crouch with
your feet together.



Choreboy demonstrates another myth:
.. the power company's grounding rods will pick up the surge
and bring it right to your house.

The Telco repairman told me their lightning damage usually comes from
surges brought to homes by the power company's ground. Last week a
retired lineman verified that the ground wire will bring in lightning
surges from many miles around.

An example of 'lying by telling half truths'. A problem
eliminated when using the single point earth ground.

To the contrary, the power company recommends a three-point ground. The
lineman had to install one at his house because lightning surges kept
destroying his well pump.


Again Choreboy muddies the water:
Earth ground is for human protection, ...
Yes. And it is also required for transistor safety - as was
posted both previously and repeatedly.

My car has no earth ground. It has sat through many thunderstorms wih
no damage to its electronics. The lack of an earth ground can mean a
static shock for humans.


Instead Choreboy states:
Earthing once cost me a computer.
Then he contradicts himself:
Zero Surge says a protector won't protect your equipment
if the earth grounds aren't bonded.
Which is it? Earthing causes damage or earthing is necessary?

If it hadn't been for those two ground rods (installed by two utilities)
my computer would have been fine. If you are grounded, you need proper bonding.

Choreboy does not even
know what inside each appliance was damaged.

I'm glad you asked. I went through my TV and my stereo to see what
parts had been zapped. The list was so long that I threw the appliances away.


Choreboy had damage due to defects in his earthing system
which he eventually admits to.

The telephone ground had nothing to do with my stereo or TV. The only
thing that killed them was voltage between hot and neutral, which got by
my whole-house protector.

Again look at what goes inside a grossly overpriced plug-in
protector. To repeat it again: Take a $3 (retail) power
strip. Add some $0.10 components. Sell it as a surge
protector under the Monster Cable brand name for upwards of
$100. That's right. Ineffective protectors are undersized to
protect a profit margin; not the transistors.

Many spend massive money on plug-in protectors so grossly
undersized as to fail on the first transient. Failure on a
first transient means ineffective protection. And yet some
consumers actually worship that at $100, it must be good.
Monster Cable also sells cheap wire with connectors color
gold. People also foolishly spend $50 and $100 for speaker
wire only because Monster colored it gold. Then myth
purveyors declare gold Monster Cable will not corrode. Lying
by telling half truths. Amazing how people use price as if it
was science proof.

The $50 microwave has significant protection. Any $0.10
components that would be effective inside that $100 protector
are already inside the $50 microwave. The microwave's
internal protection could be overwhelmed if a 'whole house'
protector - the secondary protection system - is not
installed. Properly installed. The microwave remains at same
or higher risk if plugged into a $100 power strip protector.

Meanwhile, Zerosurge told you nothing useful about grounds.
Their 'executive summary' told you enough so that you think
you know about earthing. But Zerosurge did not even discuss
primary and secondary protection. They said their product
doesn't contaminate ground by dumping transients to ground.
So what does that mean? Nothing. Total nonsense. IOW they
told gobbledygook and you declared that as science fact? They
know how to lie to the right people. Notice that Zerosurge
did not even put one number with those 'application notes'.
No numbers means what? Junk science. They wrote junk
science.

Zerosurge explained all about earthing? You also believed a
lying president when he hyped myths about weapons of mass
destruction. WMDs also demonstrated how lies can be spin into
junk science facts when the want to believe rather than first
learn.

You had a 'whole house' protector. Did you have
protection? What was and how was earth ground installed? You
now admit that the building has two separate grounds.
Therefore not effective protection. Furthermore, you don't
discuss how that 'whole house' protector is earthed. Worse
still, you don't even try to learn about earthing. Instead
that simple paragraph from Zerosurge is everything one need
know about earthing? Somehow you don't need know anything
about earthing. The ground rods caused your damage.

You post as if surge protectors stop, block, or absorb
surges. A surge enter on one wire, damage the stereo, then
stops? Even second grade science students are taught that
electricity does not work that way. You had damage to a
grossly undersized plug-in protector. That says you have no
effective secondary protection and may not have primary
protection either. But then you actually tried to claim that
earthing does not provide the protection. As long as you
remain in denial, then of course you have no effective
protection. Such damage is directly traceable to human
failure. As long as you know because Zerosurge told you so
much, then transient damage is acceptable.

You had a 'whole house' protector. But (as was posted
repeatedly and not answered): was it even earthed? The
protector is not protection. Earthing is the protection.
Earthing - the thing repeatedly ignored. Earthing for
protection was well proven even before WWII. You think some
plug-in protector will stop what miles of sky could not? What
kind of nonsense is that? Well you had electronics damage.
IOW you had damage and still deny what is effective
protection. A problem traceable when a human promotes sales
brochure science.

Cows under a tree are the perfect example of multiple earth
grounds. Your building that has multiple earth grounds has
same problem. Four legged animals are more easily killed by
lightning that strikes a tree because the cow now becomes part
of the electrical circuit. Cow does not make a single point
ground. Cow then becomes the electrical path of a circuit
that includes the struck tree.

Did EM field from a nearby strike kill those cows? Yes when
myth is taken as science fact. Those cows are cited only
because some actually believe (to the embarrassment of the
nation's education system) that a nearby lightning strike
induced death in cows. In reality the nearby lightning strike
passed right through those cows. Just another example of how
multiple earth grounds also cause appliance damage.

Same concept demonstrated in a picture from the NIST. Fax
machine also damaged because the building (like the cow) had
multiple and separate connections to ground.

Yes a ground wire may carry transients from many miles
around. So will buried pipe lines. So will utility wires
that terminate in front of your house. All the more reason
why you must have a single point earth ground.

For human life protection, an earth ground is necessary. No
way around that. So that lightning passing through the ground
does not enter the house, pass through household appliances,
then leave via another ground, instead, you must have a single
point earth ground. But again, same reason why a cow under
the tree is harmed by lighting was demonstrated by that NIST
picture at:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Where did Zerosurge discuss any of this. Obviously they did
not. Too complex? Not helpful for selling a product? You
tell me. But Zerosurge also demonstrates how ineffective and
undersized your plug-in protector was. Remember that plug-in
protector you said protected a computer. Zerosurge
demonstrates that even MOVs all can be removed, and the
protector light says the protector is fine:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

That protector did not protect the computer. The computer
protected itself from a tiny transient. A transient too small
to harm the computer could easily destroy the grossly
undersized protector. Even Zerosurge pictures demonstrated
ineffective plug-in protectors.

Either don't trust Zerosurge or maybe that APC protector is
not what you think it was. So which is lying? Zerosurge or
APC? You cannot have it both ways. Either the APC is not
effective, or what you promoted from Zerosurge is not really
true.

Those two ground rods for AC electric are absolutely
essential to surge protection AND even so that a house does
not explode. The utility does not install earthing rods.
That was your responsibility as even required by the National
Electrical Code. Those earth ground rod did not cause
transistor damage as long as they are part of the single point
earth ground. But this means you must learn about earth
ground AND stop worshiping myths from those plug-in protector
manufacturers.

Somehow you just know those ground rod caused damage? Did
you also believe a lying president when he invented WMDs?
One must believe blindly to conclude that ground rods caused
damage. Absolutely no fact exist to make that wild
assumption. Furthermore, those myths have no numbers. But
somehow you just know anyway - just like those who believed a
lying president when the numbers were saying something
completely different.

Somehow you know those ground rods cause your damage?
Fine. First define the complete electrical circuit. To
conclude ground rods caused the damage, you cannot just say "a
lineman said this". That is hearsay. Define the electric
circuit created by those ground rods. You cannot. Again, you
have made assumptions rather than first learn facts.

Problems with your reasoning demonstrated FOUR different
ways.

Assumed: a voltage between AC hot and neutral caused that
stereo damage. If true, the list of damage components would
be quite short and only where the power cord connects. Stereo
would have been easily repaired. But to have a long list of
damage, then a destructive electrical circuit had to pass
across the stereo. Destructive transients take the long path
when seeking earth ground. Typically destructive transients
enter on 'either or both' hot and neutral wire. Transients
leave on some other conductive path. If a transient entered
on hot and left on neutral, then the list of damaged
components would be quite short - and easily repaired. You had
extensive damage which mean it was a transient those plug-in
protectors don't even claim to protect from. 'Too many
damaged' components because transient entered on AC mains and
exited elsewhere.

Let's assume a transient entered on hot and left on neutral.
The typically destructive transients don't enter that way.
But let's assume a transient comes down the hot wire seeking
what? Earth ground. What does a plug-in protector do for
this type of transient? Shunts the transient to neutral
wire. Now the transient is seeking earth ground,
destructively through appliance, from both hot and neutral
wire. The adjacent plug-in protector has provided more
destructive paths to earth via the adjacent appliance.
Welcome to the world of ineffective plug-in protectors - that
don't even claim to protect from this - the typically
destructive transient. Plug-in protectors can even provide
destructive paths through an adjacent appliance.

Third example. Again, let's assume the transient entered
via hot wire and left via neutral wire. Then those earth
ground rods (that you blamed) were not involved in stereo
damage. Your assumptions are wild speculation AND they
contradict each other. Which is it? Damage enters on hot
wire and left on neutral wire? Or the utility and code
required earth ground rods put a surge into your stereo - via
a wire those ground rods don't even connect to. Those
earthing rods did not contribute to any damage if they had
been part of single point earthing. But then you don't even
demonstrate a circuit path for your claims.

And fourth is the little problem of where the electricity
went to after it left stereo on neutral wire. Where on the
neutral wire is the rest of a complete electrical circuit?
Just another problem with "the transient entered on hot wire
and left on neutral wire" theory. It has no science fact to
support what is speculation hyped into fact - just like
weapons of mass destruction. Where did current leaving the
damage stereo then go via neutral wire?

A building wire picks up radio frequencies because it is
grounded? Do you invent these things or do you have a source?
A car radio does not receive those frequencies because it is
not grounded? So the car radio does not play music and review
news updates - because it is not grounded. Which is it?
Either they both receive those frequencies or neither does.
How does household wiring create thousands of volts from the
same radio frequency source that does not even create a
destructive 10 volts inside the car radio? You listen to too
much speculation hyped into "this must be true" fact. Exactly
how a president could lie about WMDs. Most damning, where are
your numbers? They don't exist, do they.

That plug-in protector did nothing but self destruct so that
you would recommend it to the world. Its called a scam.
Somehow you have twisted a grossly undersized and overprice
protector into effective protection. You had a 'whole house'
protector. Therefore you assumed it was protection. Again,
and again, you repeatedly ignore - outrightly avoid, learning
about THE most essential component in a protection system:
earth ground. Your own speculations contradict themselves.
Why? You are promoting myths. And you deny what is effective
protection.

Choreboy wrote:
w_tom wrote:
Appliances already contains a dike.

A $50 microwave contains a dike but a $100 protector doesn't?

What is the most critical component of primary and secondary
protection systems? Earth ground. But Zerosurge avoids that
discussion.

They discussed it for me.

The protection built into appliances is sufficient when part
of a protection 'system'. Internal protection alone is
insufficient without the primary and secondary protection
'systems'.

Mine was insufficient with primary and secondary protection.
...

What frequencies are most destructive? A car radio doesn't pick up a
surge from a building's grounding system because the car isn't grounded
to it (or to earth).
...

Did you ever read where lightning kills a whole herd of cows standing
under a tree? That's the ground surge. That's why in a thunderstorm
you should not stand near a tall tree and not lie down but crouch with
your feet together.
...

The Telco repairman told me their lightning damage usually comes from
surges brought to homes by the power company's ground. Last week a
retired lineman verified that the ground wire will bring in lightning
surges from many miles around.
...

To the contrary, the power company recommends a three-point ground. The
lineman had to install one at his house because lightning surges kept
destroying his well pump.
...

My car has no earth ground. It has sat through many thunderstorms wih
no damage to its electronics. The lack of an earth ground can mean a
static shock for humans.
..

If it hadn't been for those two ground rods (installed by two
utilities) my computer would have been fine. If you are grounded,
you need proper bonding.
...

I'm glad you asked. I went through my TV and my stereo to see
what parts had been zapped. The list was so long that I threw
the appliances away.
...

The telephone ground had nothing to do with my stereo or TV. The
only thing that killed them was voltage between hot and neutral,
which got by my whole-house protector.

w_tom wrote:



You had a 'whole house' protector. Did you have
protection? What was and how was earth ground installed? You
now admit that the building has two separate grounds.
Therefore not effective protection. Furthermore, you don't
discuss how that 'whole house' protector is earthed. Worse
still, you don't even try to learn about earthing. Instead
that simple paragraph from Zerosurge is everything one need
know about earthing? Somehow you don't need know anything
about earthing. The ground rods caused your damage.

In troubleshooting the computer damage years ago I found the phone and
power grounds unbonded. I bonded them because I'd known for 20 years
that bonding was required. I thought the lack of bonding was rare until
I talked to a telco man five years later. Still later, I read at the
Zero Surge site that the lack of bonding is a common and serious
problem. BTW, did you know no computer plugged into a Zero Surge
protector has ever been damaged?


You had damage to a
grossly undersized plug-in protector.

No damage to a protector. There was no plug-in protector for my TV and
stereo. I had foolishly trusted my whole-house protector.

That says you have no
effective secondary protection and may not have primary
protection either.

Don't you think there would be a lot more damage in this neighborhood if
the power company's lines weren't grounded?


You had a 'whole house' protector. But (as was posted
repeatedly and not answered): was it even earthed?

I wonder why I didn't see your question before. It's not buried in the
ground, but of course it's connected to the same neutral bar as the
power company's ground wire, eight feet from my ground rod.

Cows under a tree are the perfect example of multiple earth
grounds. Your building that has multiple earth grounds has
same problem. Four legged animals are more easily killed by
lightning that strikes a tree because the cow now becomes part
of the electrical circuit. Cow does not make a single point
ground. Cow then becomes the electrical path of a circuit
that includes the struck tree.



Yes a ground wire may carry transients from many miles
around. So will buried pipe lines. So will utility wires
that terminate in front of your house. All the more reason
why you must have a single point earth ground.

Most buildings are like cows in that multiple grounds are inevitable:
water supply, water drain, furnace, construction materials, power tool
lying on the ground. Your single-point theory has led to thousands of
deaths when people touched objects like faucets and phones during
thunderstorms. A building needs bonding. Sometimes it needs multiple
ground rods.


Assumed: a voltage between AC hot and neutral caused that
stereo damage. If true, the list of damage components would
be quite short and only where the power cord connects. Stereo
would have been easily repaired. But to have a long list of
damage, then a destructive electrical circuit had to pass
across the stereo. Destructive transients take the long path
when seeking earth ground. Typically destructive transients
enter on 'either or both' hot and neutral wire. Transients
leave on some other conductive path. If a transient entered
on hot and left on neutral, then the list of damaged
components would be quite short - and easily repaired. You had
extensive damage which mean it was a transient those plug-in
protectors don't even claim to protect from. 'Too many
damaged' components because transient entered on AC mains and
exited elsewhere.

Does electricity always choose the longest path to ground? Except the
rabbit ears, the only conductors within several feet of the TV were the
hot wire and the neutral. So now you're telling me the surge came in
through the plug and exited through a lightning bolt? I was watching
the TV. I saw no spark at all.


Third example. Again, let's assume the transient entered
via hot wire and left via neutral wire. Then those earth
ground rods (that you blamed) were not involved in stereo
damage. Your assumptions are wild speculation AND they
contradict each other. Which is it? Damage enters on hot
wire and left on neutral wire? Or the utility and code
required earth ground rods put a surge into your stereo - via
a wire those ground rods don't even connect to. Those
earthing rods did not contribute to any damage if they had
been part of single point earthing. But then you don't even
demonstrate a circuit path for your claims.

I'm the one who has been saying earthing had nothing to do with that
incident. Unbonded grounds had zapped a computer and modem years earlier.

And fourth is the little problem of where the electricity
went to after it left stereo on neutral wire. Where on the
neutral wire is the rest of a complete electrical circuit?
Just another problem with "the transient entered on hot wire
and left on neutral wire" theory. It has no science fact to
support what is speculation hyped into fact - just like
weapons of mass destruction. Where did current leaving the
damage stereo then go via neutral wire?

Back to ground through the breaker box. That's where current flows
through all my neutral wires. Aren't your neutrals hooked up?

Speculated only (without any numbers) that all wire is
perfectly conductive. An effective protector is earthed via a
'less than 10 foot' connection. A phrase that has been
repeated how many times? Eight? Ten? Thirty? Distance is
critical because wires are electronic components - especially
when discussing destructive transients that occur within
microseconds.

Will that transient shunted by an adjacent 'plug-in'
protector go to earth ground via the neutral wire? Lets
assume a 50 foot connection to breaker box and earth ground.
That means a 'so trivial' transient of 100 amps must
transverse wire of less than 0.2 ohms resistance AND maybe 130
ohms impedance. 100 amps times 130 ohms is 13,000 volts. So
the computer and adjacent protector are at something less than
13000 volts relative to earth. How can this be? Welcome to
more electrical facts - especially earth ground - that plug-in
protectors forget to mention.

You tell me. Is that transient going to use a 13,000 volt
neutral wire? Or will it find other destructive paths to
earth? Other electrical conductors include the table,
linoleum floor tile, some wall paints, that baseboard heater.
Stereo is wired to speakers. Those speaker wire touch what?
Numerous conductive electrical paths may exist. Neither that
TV nor stereo was connected only to hot and neutral power
wire. A common destructive path through both would be
incoming on either or both AC wires, and then outgoing on any
one of so many other destructive paths.

If the transient only entered on AC hot and left on AC
neutral, then internal protection inside both TV and stereo
could have made that transient insignificant - no damage. But
then Choreboy describes an electric circuit that entered on AC
wire and exited somewhere else - as typically destructive
transients would do.

Lets assume, anyway, that entire 100 amp transient does
seek earth ground via the neutral wire. That wire is bundled
with other wires. That transient is inducing transients on
all other wires. What is connected to those other wires?
Stereo and TV. Just anther reason why the plug-in protector
was not effective.

The 'whole house' protector must make a 'less than 10 foot'
connection to the same earth ground used by telephone, cable,
and even satellite dish. You had a protector and suffered
damage? Then a protector did not connect to a single point
earth ground.

Do we dispute the generations of professionals who have
proven the critical need for single point ground? Lurkers can
access a list of industry professional citations at:
alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus on 30 Mar 2005 entitled "UPS
unit needed for the P4C800E-Deluxe"
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X61C23DCA

Unfortunately Choreboy provides no technical basis for his
assumptions. Multiple grounds are inevitable? Wrong. The
entire earth beneath a building could be one big single point
earth ground if we used what has long been available before
transistors even existed - Ufer grounding. It means building
new buildings as if the transistor existed. Other solutions
are suggested by utilities in that above long list of industry
professional citations.


In the meantime, Choreboy somehow assumes a plug-in
protector is earthed by a grossly undersized product that does
not even claim to provide that protection. He admits to
multiple earth grounds but denies they can cause damage even
though NIST figures demonstrate otherwise. He believes single
point earth ground can be dangerous. He provides no technical
reasons why nor even cites a single responsible citation or
number.

He had damage. The transient found earth ground,
destructively, via his stereo and TV because a human permitted
a transient inside the house. There is no way around those
facts demonstrated in a full day's reading from industry
professional citations. The protection is only as effective
as its earth ground.

Choreboy wrote:
In troubleshooting the computer damage years ago I found the phone and
power grounds unbonded. I bonded them because I'd known for 20 years
that bonding was required. I thought the lack of bonding was rare until
I talked to a telco man five years later. Still later, I read at the
Zero Surge site that the lack of bonding is a common and serious
problem. BTW, did you know no computer plugged into a Zero Surge
protector has ever been damaged?
...

Don't you think there would be a lot more damage in this neighborhood if
the power company's lines weren't grounded?
...

I wonder why I didn't see your question before. It's not buried in the
ground, but of course it's connected to the same neutral bar as the
power company's ground wire, eight feet from my ground rod.
...

Most buildings are like cows in that multiple grounds are inevitable:
water supply, water drain, furnace, construction materials, power tool
lying on the ground. Your single-point theory has led to thousands of
deaths when people touched objects like faucets and phones during
thunderstorms. A building needs bonding. Sometimes it needs multiple
ground rods.
...

Does electricity always choose the longest path to ground? Except the
rabbit ears, the only conductors within several feet of the TV were the
hot wire and the neutral. So now you're telling me the surge came in
through the plug and exited through a lightning bolt? I was watching
the TV. I saw no spark at all.
...

I'm the one who has been saying earthing had nothing to do with that
incident. Unbonded grounds had zapped a computer and modem years
earlier.
...

Back to ground through the breaker box. That's where current flows
through all my neutral wires. Aren't your neutrals hooked up?