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Samiel
 
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Default Heater and Sink Noise - What's the connection?

For reference, this is about a newly purchased (and built) house in
Fort Worth, TX...

I woke up the other day to an annoying (though somewhat quiet) sound
of drumming originating from my master bathroom.

The master bathroom has two sinks and emitting from one of the sinks
was drumming sound. After a while it would go away and then later it
would come back again... very odd.

I checked underneath the sink and didn't notice anything odd. The
pipe itself didn't seem to be making any noise.

When I stopped up the drain, the noise stopped. Very odd!

I finally tracked it down to the heater of all things. Whenever the
heater would turn on, I'd start to hear the drumming noise again. I
popped out the drain stopper and took a look down the drain.

What I could see was water displacement since it was rippling a bit
down the drain.

Apparently, whenever the heater turns on, it's pushing air up through
the sink somehow! When I put my hand over the drain, I could feel air
pressure from the drain matching the pulsing of the drumming sound.

Anyhow, does anyone here have any suggestions on how I might go to
alleviate this problem? Is this a heater problem or a plumbing
problem? It only just started about a month after I moved in (and I
had used the heater a few times without hearing this sound). Maybe
this is normal and my water just isn't draining right?

No other sinks in the house make the sound except for this one.

How are the heater and sink connected so that air would come out of
the sink?

I was thinking that it might have been a sympathetic vibration, but I
think it's air being pushed through the water in the drain.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

- Samiel
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Andy Hill
 
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Samiel wrote:
For reference, this is about a newly purchased (and built) house in
Fort Worth, TX...
I woke up the other day to an annoying (though somewhat quiet) sound
of drumming originating from my master bathroom.
The master bathroom has two sinks and emitting from one of the sinks
was drumming sound. After a while it would go away and then later it
would come back again... very odd.
I checked underneath the sink and didn't notice anything odd. The
pipe itself didn't seem to be making any noise.
When I stopped up the drain, the noise stopped. Very odd!
I finally tracked it down to the heater of all things. Whenever the
heater would turn on, I'd start to hear the drumming noise again. I
popped out the drain stopper and took a look down the drain.
What I could see was water displacement since it was rippling a bit
down the drain.
Apparently, whenever the heater turns on, it's pushing air up through
the sink somehow! When I put my hand over the drain, I could feel air
pressure from the drain matching the pulsing of the drumming sound.
Anyhow, does anyone here have any suggestions on how I might go to
alleviate this problem? Is this a heater problem or a plumbing
problem? It only just started about a month after I moved in (and I
had used the heater a few times without hearing this sound). Maybe
this is normal and my water just isn't draining right?
No other sinks in the house make the sound except for this one.
How are the heater and sink connected so that air would come out of
the sink?
I was thinking that it might have been a sympathetic vibration, but I
think it's air being pushed through the water in the drain.
Any suggestions are appreciated!

I seriously doubt there is any sort of air hookup from the furnace output to
your vent stack. Seems a lot more likely that one of your water pipes, or the
drain stack / vent stack for that sink is now contacting something in your HVAC
system. You sure there is no "vibration" felt in either of the water lines
or the drain pipe? I'd think tracing the vibration back would be your only
option.
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Speedy Jim
 
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Samiel wrote:

For reference, this is about a newly purchased (and built) house in
Fort Worth, TX...

I woke up the other day to an annoying (though somewhat quiet) sound
of drumming originating from my master bathroom.

The master bathroom has two sinks and emitting from one of the sinks
was drumming sound. After a while it would go away and then later it
would come back again... very odd.

I checked underneath the sink and didn't notice anything odd. The
pipe itself didn't seem to be making any noise.

When I stopped up the drain, the noise stopped. Very odd!

I finally tracked it down to the heater of all things. Whenever the
heater would turn on, I'd start to hear the drumming noise again. I
popped out the drain stopper and took a look down the drain.

What I could see was water displacement since it was rippling a bit
down the drain.

Apparently, whenever the heater turns on, it's pushing air up through
the sink somehow! When I put my hand over the drain, I could feel air
pressure from the drain matching the pulsing of the drumming sound.

Anyhow, does anyone here have any suggestions on how I might go to
alleviate this problem? Is this a heater problem or a plumbing
problem? It only just started about a month after I moved in (and I
had used the heater a few times without hearing this sound). Maybe
this is normal and my water just isn't draining right?

No other sinks in the house make the sound except for this one.

How are the heater and sink connected so that air would come out of
the sink?

I was thinking that it might have been a sympathetic vibration, but I
think it's air being pushed through the water in the drain.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

- Samiel


Heater means some kind of space heater?? Central furnace??
Not a water heater, I presume.

If the heater is a gas-fired, hi-efficiency type, maybe the
installer connected the condensate drain to the sanitary sewer
used by that sink. And the combustion blower (more speculation)
is providing the draft pressure you feel at the sink.

It all sounds like a poor/improper installation. Time to go
back to the builder? No satisfaction, see what the FW inspector
has to say.

Jim
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Samiel
 
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On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:48:27 -0700, Andy Hill
I seriously doubt there is any sort of air hookup from the furnace output to
your vent stack. Seems a lot more likely that one of your water pipes, or the
drain stack / vent stack for that sink is now contacting something in your HVAC
system. You sure there is no "vibration" felt in either of the water lines
or the drain pipe? I'd think tracing the vibration back would be your only
option.

I didn't feel a vibration beneath where the drain pipe is and I could
definitely feel air coming from the drain.

Is any type of air vent connected to the plumbing?

- Samiel
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Samiel
 
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On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:42:24 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote:

Heater means some kind of space heater?? Central furnace??
Not a water heater, I presume.

If the heater is a gas-fired, hi-efficiency type, maybe the
installer connected the condensate drain to the sanitary sewer
used by that sink. And the combustion blower (more speculation)
is providing the draft pressure you feel at the sink.

It all sounds like a poor/improper installation. Time to go
back to the builder? No satisfaction, see what the FW inspector
has to say.

Jim

I have no gas anywhere in the house, so it's an electric heater...
probably some sort of heat pump I'd guess.

I haven't heard it in a little while, so I'd say it's intermittent.
Hopefully I can reproduce the sound. Contacting the builder may be
the way to go.

- Samiel


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Charles Spitzer
 
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"Samiel" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:48:27 -0700, Andy Hill
I seriously doubt there is any sort of air hookup from the furnace output
to
your vent stack. Seems a lot more likely that one of your water pipes,
or the
drain stack / vent stack for that sink is now contacting something in your
HVAC
system. You sure there is no "vibration" felt in either of the water
lines
or the drain pipe? I'd think tracing the vibration back would be your
only
option.

I didn't feel a vibration beneath where the drain pipe is and I could
definitely feel air coming from the drain.

Is any type of air vent connected to the plumbing?

- Samiel


if it's got an exterior vent, and the house is particularly airtight, could
there be some sort of harmonic air pressure fluctuations going on? that
would force the water in the traps up and down.


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Samiel
 
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:44:49 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:

if it's got an exterior vent, and the house is particularly airtight, could
there be some sort of harmonic air pressure fluctuations going on? that
would force the water in the traps up and down.

I'm not sure that it could be something that odd. It just seems like
air is coming out of the drain continuously as the heater runs. Could
the heater and a drain use a common vent?

- Samiel
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Andy Hill
 
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Samiel wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:44:49 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:

if it's got an exterior vent, and the house is particularly airtight, could
there be some sort of harmonic air pressure fluctuations going on? that
would force the water in the traps up and down.

I'm not sure that it could be something that odd. It just seems like
air is coming out of the drain continuously as the heater runs. Could
the heater and a drain use a common vent?

Electric heat (which you say you have in another post) doesn't have any vents.

Damn, you gotta a weird one here, that's for sure.
  #9   Report Post  
Samiel
 
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:04:52 -0700, Andy Hill
wrote:

Electric heat (which you say you have in another post) doesn't have any vents.

Damn, you gotta a weird one here, that's for sure.

Yeah, I'm not sure what it is. It really does seem like air is coming
from the drain and when I turn the heater on, the sound starts and
when the heater shuts off, the sound stops.

The only other thing that I think it could be is some sort of
vibration, but that doesn't seem to explain the issue of air flow from
the drain.

If I close the drain, the sound cannot be heard since it stops the air
from escaping...?

Very odd...

- Samiel
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Andy Hill
 
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Samiel wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:04:52 -0700, Andy Hill
wrote:

Electric heat (which you say you have in another post) doesn't have any vents.

Damn, you gotta a weird one here, that's for sure.

Yeah, I'm not sure what it is. It really does seem like air is coming
from the drain and when I turn the heater on, the sound starts and
when the heater shuts off, the sound stops.

The only other thing that I think it could be is some sort of
vibration, but that doesn't seem to explain the issue of air flow from
the drain.

If I close the drain, the sound cannot be heard since it stops the air
from escaping...?

Very odd...

How much airflow are we talking about here? If you put something really light
(like, say, tissue or toilet paper) over the drain, can you see the paper being
moved by the air? A little? A lot? Is the airflow *into* the drain, or *ut
of*the drain?



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Samiel
 
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:40:16 -0700, Andy Hill
wrote:

How much airflow are we talking about here? If you put something really light
(like, say, tissue or toilet paper) over the drain, can you see the paper being
moved by the air? A little? A lot? Is the airflow *into* the drain, or *ut
of*the drain?

The airflow is quite small, enough to make a bubbling/drumming sound
with the water.

- Samiel
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Samiel
 
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:40:16 -0700, Andy Hill
wrote:
How much airflow are we talking about here? If you put something really light
(like, say, tissue or toilet paper) over the drain, can you see the paper being
moved by the air? A little? A lot? Is the airflow *into* the drain, or *ut
of*the drain?

I put a single sheet of TP over the drain and I could see some little
puffs of air affecting the TP. So, there's definitely air going in or
out of the sink drain.

Is it possible that for some reason, when the heater/ac unit is
running that the drain is trying to pull air into itself? Maybe what
I hear is a tiny bit of water being pulled in and then let go?

- Samiel
  #13   Report Post  
Andy Hill
 
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Samiel wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:40:16 -0700, Andy Hill
wrote:
How much airflow are we talking about here? If you put something really light
(like, say, tissue or toilet paper) over the drain, can you see the paper being
moved by the air? A little? A lot? Is the airflow *into* the drain, or *ut
of*the drain?

I put a single sheet of TP over the drain and I could see some little
puffs of air affecting the TP. So, there's definitely air going in or
out of the sink drain.

Is it possible that for some reason, when the heater/ac unit is
running that the drain is trying to pull air into itself? Maybe what
I hear is a tiny bit of water being pulled in and then let go?

OK, I'll have to go into seriously left-field mode here, since I really can't
think of any logical reason why an electric furnace could affect the water in
the sink trap.

(1) Maybe the air conditioner condenser drain (assuming you have central air) is
plumbed into the waste stack near where the sink is plumbed into the waste
stack, the trap in the condenser drain has dried up, and there is enough air
being blown into the condenser drain that it's backing through the trap in the
sink.

(2) Maybe the furnace return isn't sized correctly relative to the number of
vents, and you're getting so much back pressure in the house (or otherwise) that
air is having to be sunk or sourced through the trap into/out of the vent stack.

Frankly, both of these are seriously far fetched, IMHO. Since the house is
pretty new, I'd probably just have the builder come out, show him the problem,
and let *him* figure it out.
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Samiel
 
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I still need to get this looked at (hard since I have hardly any
vacation days to have someone come in).

I noticed today that there is actually some kind of copper tubing
coming out of the wall beneath the sink and is connected to the drain
pipe. The other sink does not have this tube connected to the drain
pipe. Maybe this is the culprit? Maybe there's some sort of air
venting connected to the sink?

- Samiel

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:10:26 GMT, Samiel wrote:

For reference, this is about a newly purchased (and built) house in
Fort Worth, TX...

I woke up the other day to an annoying (though somewhat quiet) sound
of drumming originating from my master bathroom.

The master bathroom has two sinks and emitting from one of the sinks
was drumming sound. After a while it would go away and then later it
would come back again... very odd.

I checked underneath the sink and didn't notice anything odd. The
pipe itself didn't seem to be making any noise.

When I stopped up the drain, the noise stopped. Very odd!

I finally tracked it down to the heater of all things. Whenever the
heater would turn on, I'd start to hear the drumming noise again. I
popped out the drain stopper and took a look down the drain.

What I could see was water displacement since it was rippling a bit
down the drain.

Apparently, whenever the heater turns on, it's pushing air up through
the sink somehow! When I put my hand over the drain, I could feel air
pressure from the drain matching the pulsing of the drumming sound.

Anyhow, does anyone here have any suggestions on how I might go to
alleviate this problem? Is this a heater problem or a plumbing
problem? It only just started about a month after I moved in (and I
had used the heater a few times without hearing this sound). Maybe
this is normal and my water just isn't draining right?

No other sinks in the house make the sound except for this one.

How are the heater and sink connected so that air would come out of
the sink?

I was thinking that it might have been a sympathetic vibration, but I
think it's air being pushed through the water in the drain.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

- Samiel


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Charles Spitzer
 
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"Samiel" wrote in message
...
I still need to get this looked at (hard since I have hardly any
vacation days to have someone come in).

I noticed today that there is actually some kind of copper tubing
coming out of the wall beneath the sink and is connected to the drain
pipe. The other sink does not have this tube connected to the drain
pipe. Maybe this is the culprit? Maybe there's some sort of air
venting connected to the sink?


do you have an r/o system? there needs to be a drain for the waste water.

- Samiel

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:10:26 GMT, Samiel wrote:

For reference, this is about a newly purchased (and built) house in
Fort Worth, TX...

I woke up the other day to an annoying (though somewhat quiet) sound
of drumming originating from my master bathroom.

The master bathroom has two sinks and emitting from one of the sinks
was drumming sound. After a while it would go away and then later it
would come back again... very odd.

I checked underneath the sink and didn't notice anything odd. The
pipe itself didn't seem to be making any noise.

When I stopped up the drain, the noise stopped. Very odd!

I finally tracked it down to the heater of all things. Whenever the
heater would turn on, I'd start to hear the drumming noise again. I
popped out the drain stopper and took a look down the drain.

What I could see was water displacement since it was rippling a bit
down the drain.

Apparently, whenever the heater turns on, it's pushing air up through
the sink somehow! When I put my hand over the drain, I could feel air
pressure from the drain matching the pulsing of the drumming sound.

Anyhow, does anyone here have any suggestions on how I might go to
alleviate this problem? Is this a heater problem or a plumbing
problem? It only just started about a month after I moved in (and I
had used the heater a few times without hearing this sound). Maybe
this is normal and my water just isn't draining right?

No other sinks in the house make the sound except for this one.

How are the heater and sink connected so that air would come out of
the sink?

I was thinking that it might have been a sympathetic vibration, but I
think it's air being pushed through the water in the drain.

Any suggestions are appreciated!

- Samiel






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Samiel
 
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:37:49 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:


"Samiel" wrote in message
.. .
I still need to get this looked at (hard since I have hardly any
vacation days to have someone come in).

I noticed today that there is actually some kind of copper tubing
coming out of the wall beneath the sink and is connected to the drain
pipe. The other sink does not have this tube connected to the drain
pipe. Maybe this is the culprit? Maybe there's some sort of air
venting connected to the sink?


do you have an r/o system? there needs to be a drain for the waste water.

My ignorance shines... what's an r/o system?

- Samiel
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Charles Spitzer
 
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Default


"Samiel" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:37:49 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:


"Samiel" wrote in message
. ..
I still need to get this looked at (hard since I have hardly any
vacation days to have someone come in).

I noticed today that there is actually some kind of copper tubing
coming out of the wall beneath the sink and is connected to the drain
pipe. The other sink does not have this tube connected to the drain
pipe. Maybe this is the culprit? Maybe there's some sort of air
venting connected to the sink?


do you have an r/o system? there needs to be a drain for the waste water.

My ignorance shines... what's an r/o system?

- Samiel


reverse osmosis. you'd have a clean drinking water tap at a sink somewhere,
or perhaps plumbed into the icemaker line.


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Samiel
 
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:20:15 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:

reverse osmosis. you'd have a clean drinking water tap at a sink somewhere,
or perhaps plumbed into the icemaker line.

I don't think I have a R/O system anywhere. This is connected to the
master bath's sink, so I'm pretty sure it's nothing for drinking
water. Perhaps it's some sort of draining system for the A/C
unit/heater?

- Samiel
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Charles Spitzer
 
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"Samiel" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:20:15 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:

reverse osmosis. you'd have a clean drinking water tap at a sink
somewhere,
or perhaps plumbed into the icemaker line.

I don't think I have a R/O system anywhere. This is connected to the
master bath's sink, so I'm pretty sure it's nothing for drinking
water. Perhaps it's some sort of draining system for the A/C
unit/heater?

- Samiel


go look at the a/c and see if it has a similar hose coming out of it
somewhere


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Speedy Jim
 
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Samiel wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:20:15 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:

reverse osmosis. you'd have a clean drinking water tap at a sink somewhere,
or perhaps plumbed into the icemaker line.


I don't think I have a R/O system anywhere. This is connected to the
master bath's sink, so I'm pretty sure it's nothing for drinking
water. Perhaps it's some sort of draining system for the A/C
unit/heater?

- Samiel


Yes, it's common to connect the A/C condensate return to
a trapped waste on a Lav basin, for example. Many times
a roof or attic unit won't have any other place to drain to
conveniently.

If the A/C doesn't have a trap in the condensate line right
at the A/C or the trap isn't functioning, then I can see
air pressure appearing at the basin.

Jim


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Samiel
 
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:01:41 GMT, Samiel wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:40:16 -0700, Andy Hill
wrote:

How much airflow are we talking about here? If you put something really light
(like, say, tissue or toilet paper) over the drain, can you see the paper being
moved by the air? A little? A lot? Is the airflow *into* the drain, or *ut
of*the drain?

The airflow is quite small, enough to make a bubbling/drumming sound
with the water.

- Samiel

Okay, it's fixed now. Apparently my AC unit in the attic had a
condensation drain which was linked to my master bedroom sink drain.
Since it was a new house, the trap in the attic didn't have any water
in it and air was going through the pipe and making sound in my master
bedroom.

They replaced the trap and filled it with some water and also tried to
make the pipe a little more level in the attic.

- Samiel
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