Towards the middle of 2002 I decide to take advantage of the lower interest
rates on homes. I had also remarried and wanted to make sure my new spouse
was on the title. The original mortgage was with Countrywide Home Loans (a
division of Treasury Bank N.A.) who has offices in the same building with
General Homes, the folks who built my house. I called Countrywide up and
discussed the options and finally started the ball rolling. On October 28th
2002 we signed the paperwork at the title company to refinance the house for
15 years at 6%.



The first sign that something was wrong was when I received a notice my
escrow account was over $1300.00 short and my monthly payment was going from
$999.22 to $1216.51. I was alarmed at this sudden rise in the payment and
contacted Countrywide.



Delia Whitley, with the customer service department at Countrywide, sent me
a fairly detailed e-mailed explanation on what the escrow account was set up
to pay and what the actual tax and insurance bills turned out to be. What
really caught my eye was the difference in my insurance payment. Her e-mail
had my home owners insurance going from $874.20 to $1898.00 in one year.



Now I knew something was very wrong. I've been trying hard to keep my
insurance premiums with State Farm down with all the mold claims going on
here in Texas. A $1023.00 increase would have been excessive under any
circumstance. I knew I could view the last 18 months of my old loan's
transactions on Countrywide's web page. I have been checking my payments and
escrow distributions there for over ten years. I pulled up old loan number
007338731, and sure enough, there it was. On the 17th of July 2002 Country
Home Loans sent a $1588.00 check to State Farm.



A follow-up phone conversation with Countrywide's customer service
department disclosed the methods they used when they created the new loan
package. He explained that it was standard practice to estimate the money
required to meet the taxes and insurance on the property. Gay Weed informed
me that: 1) This review of your escrow account is based on information
believed to be accurate. 2) Countrywide does not guarantee that this
information is correct. 3) This information is subject to change at any
time.



When I asked why they didn't use the real numbers, stored in their own data
base on my old loan, they became defensive. I was told I should have checked
the escrow account numbers to make sure they were right. I admit I should
have, now looking at this matter in retrospect. I had no idea they would use
fabricated monetary values for my property taxes and insurance. I had
refinanced my house with the same lender. I doesn't take a rocket scientist
to pull up my old loan history, located in their own computer, and copy
those historical "real numbers" into the new loan's escrow account.



This is when I got very angry. I referred to their "estimated" escrow
numbers as "bovine putrid fecal matter". I wanted to know where they got
their numbers from. They wouldn't say. I wanted to find out who sold home
owners insurance in Texas on a 2300 square foot house, about 100 miles from
the Gulf of Mexico, for $875.00 per year. They couldn't say.



What they did tell me was that Countrywide would have to collect an
additional 2 months of escrow reserve to cover any future shortages. The
RESPA Act allows them to do this. They would get to collect an additional
16.6% of my money, store it away to draw interest for Countrywide, because
they screwed up? I could prevent this by sending them $1300.38 to cover the
cost difference present in my escrow account. That is when I decided to
close the escrow account and take over all the payments for taxes and
insurance.



I am lucky. I just paid off my truck. I have some resources to draw from to
cover my taxes this year. Christmas was lean but we made it. What I'm
wondering now is how many people out there have fallen victim to this type
of "escrow estimate" scam run by Countrywide Home Loans. They have no reason
to use real numbers. The RESPA Act allows them to screw anyone who falls
into their trap. The victim is made to believe that Countrywide is helping
them out of this jam.



Has anyone else out there fallen victim to this type of scam? Your US
Government passed the RESPA Act to protect YOU, the consumer. Countrywide
Home Loans has figured as way to "pop" their own customer's a year after
they refinanced with the government's blessing. I just sent Tom Martino, the
radio consumer advocate, a copy of what you see above. Hopefully someone
will call him and add their own two cents worth..



--

Richard I Williamson
Houston, Texas

My original mortgage was with Countrywide and then a little over a year ago
I also refinanced with them.

One thing you didn't mention that you might want to check on....

With my mortgage they do an automatic yearly escrow review and adjust the
montly amount based on the actual expenses the previous year. As a result,
a couple of months ago I got a refund of $200 because there was too much in
my escrow account. They also lowered my payment at that time.

At least in my experience with Countrywide, they've kept a very small amount
of excess in the escrow account. As you experienced, one time early in my
1st mortgage I did have to send them an "extra" amount of money because my
escrow account contribution was not covering the amount they estimated for
my property tax. Personally, I'd rather have them underestimate and let me
make it up than have them overestimate and sit on my money in their escrow
account.

Tony

"Richard" wrote in message
...
Towards the middle of 2002 I decide to take advantage of the lower
interest
rates on homes. I had also remarried and wanted to make sure my new spouse
was on the title. The original mortgage was with Countrywide Home Loans (a
division of Treasury Bank N.A.) who has offices in the same building with
General Homes, the folks who built my house. I called Countrywide up and
discussed the options and finally started the ball rolling. On October
28th
2002 we signed the paperwork at the title company to refinance the house
for
15 years at 6%.



The first sign that something was wrong was when I received a notice my
escrow account was over $1300.00 short and my monthly payment was going
from
$999.22 to $1216.51. I was alarmed at this sudden rise in the payment and
contacted Countrywide.



Delia Whitley, with the customer service department at Countrywide, sent
me
a fairly detailed e-mailed explanation on what the escrow account was set
up
to pay and what the actual tax and insurance bills turned out to be. What
really caught my eye was the difference in my insurance payment. Her
e-mail
had my home owners insurance going from $874.20 to $1898.00 in one year.



Now I knew something was very wrong. I've been trying hard to keep my
insurance premiums with State Farm down with all the mold claims going on
here in Texas. A $1023.00 increase would have been excessive under any
circumstance. I knew I could view the last 18 months of my old loan's
transactions on Countrywide's web page. I have been checking my payments
and
escrow distributions there for over ten years. I pulled up old loan number
007338731, and sure enough, there it was. On the 17th of July 2002 Country
Home Loans sent a $1588.00 check to State Farm.



A follow-up phone conversation with Countrywide's customer service
department disclosed the methods they used when they created the new loan
package. He explained that it was standard practice to estimate the money
required to meet the taxes and insurance on the property. Gay Weed
informed
me that: 1) This review of your escrow account is based on information
believed to be accurate. 2) Countrywide does not guarantee that this
information is correct. 3) This information is subject to change at any
time.



When I asked why they didn't use the real numbers, stored in their own
data
base on my old loan, they became defensive. I was told I should have
checked
the escrow account numbers to make sure they were right. I admit I should
have, now looking at this matter in retrospect. I had no idea they would
use
fabricated monetary values for my property taxes and insurance. I had
refinanced my house with the same lender. I doesn't take a rocket
scientist
to pull up my old loan history, located in their own computer, and copy
those historical "real numbers" into the new loan's escrow account.



This is when I got very angry. I referred to their "estimated" escrow
numbers as "bovine putrid fecal matter". I wanted to know where they got
their numbers from. They wouldn't say. I wanted to find out who sold home
owners insurance in Texas on a 2300 square foot house, about 100 miles
from
the Gulf of Mexico, for $875.00 per year. They couldn't say.



What they did tell me was that Countrywide would have to collect an
additional 2 months of escrow reserve to cover any future shortages. The
RESPA Act allows them to do this. They would get to collect an additional
16.6% of my money, store it away to draw interest for Countrywide, because
they screwed up? I could prevent this by sending them $1300.38 to cover
the
cost difference present in my escrow account. That is when I decided to
close the escrow account and take over all the payments for taxes and
insurance.



I am lucky. I just paid off my truck. I have some resources to draw from
to
cover my taxes this year. Christmas was lean but we made it. What I'm
wondering now is how many people out there have fallen victim to this type
of "escrow estimate" scam run by Countrywide Home Loans. They have no
reason
to use real numbers. The RESPA Act allows them to screw anyone who falls
into their trap. The victim is made to believe that Countrywide is helping
them out of this jam.



Has anyone else out there fallen victim to this type of scam? Your US
Government passed the RESPA Act to protect YOU, the consumer. Countrywide
Home Loans has figured as way to "pop" their own customer's a year after
they refinanced with the government's blessing. I just sent Tom Martino,
the
radio consumer advocate, a copy of what you see above. Hopefully someone
will call him and add their own two cents worth..



--

Richard I Williamson
Houston, Texas

"Richard" wrote in message
...
Towards the middle of 2002 I decide to take advantage of the lower
interest
rates on homes. I had also remarried and wanted to make sure my new spouse
was on the title. The original mortgage was with Countrywide Home Loans (a
division of Treasury Bank N.A.) who has offices in the same building with
General Homes, the folks who built my house. I called Countrywide up and
discussed the options and finally started the ball rolling. On October
28th
2002 we signed the paperwork at the title company to refinance the house
for
15 years at 6%.



The first sign that something was wrong was when I received a notice my
escrow account was over $1300.00 short and my monthly payment was going
from
$999.22 to $1216.51. I was alarmed at this sudden rise in the payment and
contacted Countrywide.
==
We have a mortgage with Chase Manhattan. It is not uncommon for our escrow
payment
to change yearly, however it is always in the neighborhood of $25.00.
Perhaps
you should compare rates with other insurers.
==

"Richard" wrote...

He explained that it was standard practice to estimate the money
required to meet the taxes and insurance on the property. Gay Weed informed
me that: 1) This review of your escrow account is based on information
believed to be accurate. 2) Countrywide does not guarantee that this
information is correct. 3) This information is subject to change at any
time.

When I asked why they didn't use the real numbers, stored in their own data
base on my old loan, they became defensive.

I wanted to find out who sold home
owners insurance in Texas on a 2300 square foot house, about 100 miles from
the Gulf of Mexico, for $875.00 per year. They couldn't say.

Been there, done that, though with a couple other lenders. Last time it took me
about 4 months to get it straightened out, including letters to the VA office
that handles home loans and to another federal regulatory agency (forgot which
one -- it's been several years).

You have to be persistent, follow up by sending them all pertinent, current
information, and follow through with any "threats" to complain to the regulatory
agencies. Also, insist on a copy of ANY regulation they say "requires" some
[in]action on their part. I found that the method they used by default to
calculate escrow payments was a method specifically DISCOURAGED by the VA
regulation as unsuitable and inaccurate.

Unfortunately, some people do not have the option of closing the escrow account
because of the contract they signed. The only way to fight then is to continue
fighting.


What they did tell me was that Countrywide would have to collect an
additional 2 months of escrow reserve to cover any future shortages. The
RESPA Act allows them to do this. They would get to collect an additional
16.6% of my money, store it away to draw interest for Countrywide, because
they screwed up?

IIRC, there are limitations on this practice, especially if they use the
particularly adverse (for the customer) method of calculating your escrow
payment that the VA discourages. I don't think they can put the 16% on top of
other reserves or "cushions" -- just over the projected $0 account balance that
will be reached when the tax or insurance payment is made.

Again, do your research and be a pest!

I am a very happy Countrywide customer, but that aside...


Why don't you take care of the impounds yourself?


Dimitri

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 13:43:21 GMT, "Richard" wrote:

Towards the middle of 2002 I decide to take advantage of the lower interest
rates on homes. I had also remarried and wanted to make sure my new spouse
was on the title. The original mortgage was with Countrywide Home Loans (a
division of Treasury Bank N.A.) who has offices in the same building with
General Homes, the folks who built my house. I called Countrywide up and
discussed the options and finally started the ball rolling. On October 28th
2002 we signed the paperwork at the title company to refinance the house for
15 years at 6%.



The first sign that something was wrong was when I received a notice my
escrow account was over $1300.00 short and my monthly payment was going from
$999.22 to $1216.51. I was alarmed at this sudden rise in the payment and
contacted Countrywide.



Delia Whitley, with the customer service department at Countrywide, sent me
a fairly detailed e-mailed explanation on what the escrow account was set up
to pay and what the actual tax and insurance bills turned out to be. What
really caught my eye was the difference in my insurance payment. Her e-mail
had my home owners insurance going from $874.20 to $1898.00 in one year.



Now I knew something was very wrong. I've been trying hard to keep my
insurance premiums with State Farm down with all the mold claims going on
here in Texas. A $1023.00 increase would have been excessive under any
circumstance. I knew I could view the last 18 months of my old loan's
transactions on Countrywide's web page. I have been checking my payments and
escrow distributions there for over ten years. I pulled up old loan number
007338731, and sure enough, there it was. On the 17th of July 2002 Country
Home Loans sent a $1588.00 check to State Farm.



A follow-up phone conversation with Countrywide's customer service
department disclosed the methods they used when they created the new loan
package. He explained that it was standard practice to estimate the money
required to meet the taxes and insurance on the property. Gay Weed informed
me that: 1) This review of your escrow account is based on information
believed to be accurate. 2) Countrywide does not guarantee that this
information is correct. 3) This information is subject to change at any
time.



When I asked why they didn't use the real numbers, stored in their own data
base on my old loan, they became defensive. I was told I should have checked
the escrow account numbers to make sure they were right. I admit I should
have, now looking at this matter in retrospect. I had no idea they would use
fabricated monetary values for my property taxes and insurance. I had
refinanced my house with the same lender. I doesn't take a rocket scientist
to pull up my old loan history, located in their own computer, and copy
those historical "real numbers" into the new loan's escrow account.



This is when I got very angry. I referred to their "estimated" escrow
numbers as "bovine putrid fecal matter". I wanted to know where they got
their numbers from. They wouldn't say. I wanted to find out who sold home
owners insurance in Texas on a 2300 square foot house, about 100 miles from
the Gulf of Mexico, for $875.00 per year. They couldn't say.



What they did tell me was that Countrywide would have to collect an
additional 2 months of escrow reserve to cover any future shortages. The
RESPA Act allows them to do this. They would get to collect an additional
16.6% of my money, store it away to draw interest for Countrywide, because
they screwed up? I could prevent this by sending them $1300.38 to cover the
cost difference present in my escrow account. That is when I decided to
close the escrow account and take over all the payments for taxes and
insurance.



I am lucky. I just paid off my truck. I have some resources to draw from to
cover my taxes this year. Christmas was lean but we made it. What I'm
wondering now is how many people out there have fallen victim to this type
of "escrow estimate" scam run by Countrywide Home Loans. They have no reason
to use real numbers. The RESPA Act allows them to screw anyone who falls
into their trap. The victim is made to believe that Countrywide is helping
them out of this jam.



Has anyone else out there fallen victim to this type of scam? Your US
Government passed the RESPA Act to protect YOU, the consumer. Countrywide
Home Loans has figured as way to "pop" their own customer's a year after
they refinanced with the government's blessing. I just sent Tom Martino, the
radio consumer advocate, a copy of what you see above. Hopefully someone
will call him and add their own two cents worth..



Personally I never dealt with Countrywide so I'm speaking in general
for other mortgage companies here.

Before they paid the homeowner's insurance, you should have received a
copy of the latest insurance invoice from your insurance company so
you could make changes in time. At that point, you could have also
compared it to what they estimated from your closing papers which I
assume would be quite low from your post. It's not their fault in
paying the insurance bill since they can't make the changes for you.
The mortgage company could have forewarned you about the big jump in
the insurance bill once they got it but they weren't required to do
this as they probably figured you already got it from the insurance
company as I mentioned earlier.

Usually it's customary to estimate the current years taxes and
insurances based on the previous year with a buffer for increases.
The current year's taxes won't usually be known till the end of a
current year so the mortgage company had to use some type of estimate
for this. And as to insurance, they probably used the previous year's
amount.

As to the escrow shortage, it's sorta a double whami effect because
you "may" have to make up the shortage twice in effect ....once for
the current year and for the year ahead and on top of that a buffer,
to get your escrow where it should be at the end of the year (assuming
fiscal year = calendar year). And the problem can also feel hard to
you when they get a new insurance bill say midyear which is double or
triple from the previous year. Chances are they didn't estimate
properly for that as would be common for many escrow accounts. At
that point, they could either readjust your escrow amount for the
remaining year or send you a bill to pay the underestimate as a lump
sum to get the escrow account balance on track for the remaining year.
Either way is usually painful to the homeowner.

As to how they estimate the escrow account, usually this is written in
the closing papers and approved by you with your signature.

I agree I should have looked at and scrutinized all the four dozen papers I
signed at closing.

What really bothered me was that they didn't even peek at my old loan to
find out what the last ten years of taxes and insurance were. What they used
for information for their "estimate" didn't even come close. Normally I
would have to describe their actions as moronic. But real professionals
wouldn't do something moronic unless there is an alternative goal. What
looks like a simple oversight on the surface may cover their true
intentions. If they used this same simpleton estimate scheme on me, then
they've also used it on the thousands of people that refinanced with
Countrywide.

What do you get when you take 2 months (16.6%) of the escrow account reserve
(about $760 in my case) and multiply that by 500 or 1000? A pretty good
chuck of change that they can use as they please. I would bet Countrywide
refinanced more than a couple thousand folks in 2002. Maybe a couple more
1000 in 2003. I wonder how many of them have (or will) experienced escrow
account problems? Maybe a federal investigation would answer that question.

Richard


"frankg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 13:43:21 GMT, "Richard"
wrote:

Towards the middle of 2002 I decide to take advantage of the lower
interest
rates on homes. I had also remarried and wanted to make sure my new
spouse
was on the title. The original mortgage was with Countrywide Home Loans
(a
division of Treasury Bank N.A.) who has offices in the same building with
General Homes, the folks who built my house. I called Countrywide up and
discussed the options and finally started the ball rolling. On October
28th
2002 we signed the paperwork at the title company to refinance the house
for
15 years at 6%.



The first sign that something was wrong was when I received a notice my
escrow account was over $1300.00 short and my monthly payment was going
from
$999.22 to $1216.51. I was alarmed at this sudden rise in the payment and
contacted Countrywide.



Delia Whitley, with the customer service department at Countrywide, sent
me
a fairly detailed e-mailed explanation on what the escrow account was set
up
to pay and what the actual tax and insurance bills turned out to be. What
really caught my eye was the difference in my insurance payment. Her
e-mail
had my home owners insurance going from $874.20 to $1898.00 in one year.



Now I knew something was very wrong. I've been trying hard to keep my
insurance premiums with State Farm down with all the mold claims going on
here in Texas. A $1023.00 increase would have been excessive under any
circumstance. I knew I could view the last 18 months of my old loan's
transactions on Countrywide's web page. I have been checking my payments
and
escrow distributions there for over ten years. I pulled up old loan
number
007338731, and sure enough, there it was. On the 17th of July 2002
Country
Home Loans sent a $1588.00 check to State Farm.



A follow-up phone conversation with Countrywide's customer service
department disclosed the methods they used when they created the new loan
package. He explained that it was standard practice to estimate the money
required to meet the taxes and insurance on the property. Gay Weed
informed
me that: 1) This review of your escrow account is based on information
believed to be accurate. 2) Countrywide does not guarantee that this
information is correct. 3) This information is subject to change at any
time.



When I asked why they didn't use the real numbers, stored in their own
data
base on my old loan, they became defensive. I was told I should have
checked
the escrow account numbers to make sure they were right. I admit I should
have, now looking at this matter in retrospect. I had no idea they would
use
fabricated monetary values for my property taxes and insurance. I had
refinanced my house with the same lender. I doesn't take a rocket
scientist
to pull up my old loan history, located in their own computer, and copy
those historical "real numbers" into the new loan's escrow account.



This is when I got very angry. I referred to their "estimated" escrow
numbers as "bovine putrid fecal matter". I wanted to know where they got
their numbers from. They wouldn't say. I wanted to find out who sold home
owners insurance in Texas on a 2300 square foot house, about 100 miles
from
the Gulf of Mexico, for $875.00 per year. They couldn't say.



What they did tell me was that Countrywide would have to collect an
additional 2 months of escrow reserve to cover any future shortages. The
RESPA Act allows them to do this. They would get to collect an additional
16.6% of my money, store it away to draw interest for Countrywide,
because
they screwed up? I could prevent this by sending them $1300.38 to cover
the
cost difference present in my escrow account. That is when I decided to
close the escrow account and take over all the payments for taxes and
insurance.



I am lucky. I just paid off my truck. I have some resources to draw from
to
cover my taxes this year. Christmas was lean but we made it. What I'm
wondering now is how many people out there have fallen victim to this
type
of "escrow estimate" scam run by Countrywide Home Loans. They have no
reason
to use real numbers. The RESPA Act allows them to screw anyone who falls
into their trap. The victim is made to believe that Countrywide is
helping
them out of this jam.



Has anyone else out there fallen victim to this type of scam? Your US
Government passed the RESPA Act to protect YOU, the consumer. Countrywide
Home Loans has figured as way to "pop" their own customer's a year after
they refinanced with the government's blessing. I just sent Tom Martino,
the
radio consumer advocate, a copy of what you see above. Hopefully someone
will call him and add their own two cents worth..



Personally I never dealt with Countrywide so I'm speaking in general
for other mortgage companies here.

Before they paid the homeowner's insurance, you should have received a
copy of the latest insurance invoice from your insurance company so
you could make changes in time. At that point, you could have also
compared it to what they estimated from your closing papers which I
assume would be quite low from your post. It's not their fault in
paying the insurance bill since they can't make the changes for you.
The mortgage company could have forewarned you about the big jump in
the insurance bill once they got it but they weren't required to do
this as they probably figured you already got it from the insurance
company as I mentioned earlier.

Usually it's customary to estimate the current years taxes and
insurances based on the previous year with a buffer for increases.
The current year's taxes won't usually be known till the end of a
current year so the mortgage company had to use some type of estimate
for this. And as to insurance, they probably used the previous year's
amount.

As to the escrow shortage, it's sorta a double whami effect because
you "may" have to make up the shortage twice in effect ....once for
the current year and for the year ahead and on top of that a buffer,
to get your escrow where it should be at the end of the year (assuming
fiscal year = calendar year). And the problem can also feel hard to
you when they get a new insurance bill say midyear which is double or
triple from the previous year. Chances are they didn't estimate
properly for that as would be common for many escrow accounts. At
that point, they could either readjust your escrow amount for the
remaining year or send you a bill to pay the underestimate as a lump
sum to get the escrow account balance on track for the remaining year.
Either way is usually painful to the homeowner.

As to how they estimate the escrow account, usually this is written in
the closing papers and approved by you with your signature.

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 14:37:55 GMT, "Richard" wrote:

I agree I should have looked at and scrutinized all the four dozen papers I
signed at closing.

What really bothered me was that they didn't even peek at my old loan to
find out what the last ten years of taxes and insurance were. What they used
for information for their "estimate" didn't even come close. Normally I
would have to describe their actions as moronic. But real professionals
wouldn't do something moronic unless there is an alternative goal. What
looks like a simple oversight on the surface may cover their true
intentions. If they used this same simpleton estimate scheme on me, then
they've also used it on the thousands of people that refinanced with
Countrywide.

What do you get when you take 2 months (16.6%) of the escrow account reserve
(about $760 in my case) and multiply that by 500 or 1000? A pretty good
chuck of change that they can use as they please. I would bet Countrywide
refinanced more than a couple thousand folks in 2002. Maybe a couple more
1000 in 2003. I wonder how many of them have (or will) experienced escrow
account problems? Maybe a federal investigation would answer that question.

Richard




I'm not sure why you think they should look before last year's taxes
and insurance amounts to estimate this current year's taxes and
insurance.

I agree that the amount of papers at closing is a lot to sign but
usually I find it to be about a dozen or less papers requiring a
signature with others in between. Regardless, you have a
responsibility to read them.

Assuming you kept a record of your closing papers, you should still be
able to see how Countrywide estimated your escrow as of the closing
date. That may not help you much now but at least you could see how
they calculated it .

And assuming they made a mistake in their escrow calculation, you
should be able to verify the present one if you know what your current
taxes and insurance are, amount of buffer, when the readjustment in
escrow occurred during the 12 months and how much you had in escrow at
that point If this doesn't make sense, call them and ask them
"politely" to explain slowly so you can write it all down.

I understand how they do it. That part is real easy. Work up the amortized
loan package. Check your reference chart for estimated nominal taxes and
insurance for this type property in that local. Add them up. Divide by
twelve. Round up. Principle + interest + 1/12 escrow = payment. Simple. My
first ex-wife, with a HS diploma, did it for Caprock Savings in Monahans, TX
back before oil went bust.

I just don't understand why they should have had to "estimate" or even
"calculate it" when they have solid hard factual information at their finger
tips. When you have an established escrow payment history, stored in their
own computer system, and fail to consult it during the function of
refinancing a existing loan, you can't make excuses why the insurance
payment is off by over a thousand dollars. I can tolerate ignorance. This
falls under the heading of "real f_ck_ng stupid".

Oh well.
The escrow account is closed. I get to take care of it all.
My mission now is to make the consumer more wary of Countrywide Home Loans
and others like them.
Just issued a complaint with my local BBB.

Richard
Houston, TX


"frankg" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 14:37:55 GMT, "Richard"
wrote:

I agree I should have looked at and scrutinized all the four dozen papers
I
signed at closing.

What really bothered me was that they didn't even peek at my old loan to
find out what the last ten years of taxes and insurance were. What they
used
for information for their "estimate" didn't even come close. Normally I
would have to describe their actions as moronic. But real professionals
wouldn't do something moronic unless there is an alternative goal. What
looks like a simple oversight on the surface may cover their true
intentions. If they used this same simpleton estimate scheme on me, then
they've also used it on the thousands of people that refinanced with
Countrywide.

What do you get when you take 2 months (16.6%) of the escrow account
reserve
(about $760 in my case) and multiply that by 500 or 1000? A pretty good
chuck of change that they can use as they please. I would bet Countrywide
refinanced more than a couple thousand folks in 2002. Maybe a couple more
1000 in 2003. I wonder how many of them have (or will) experienced escrow
account problems? Maybe a federal investigation would answer that
question.

Richard




I'm not sure why you think they should look before last year's taxes
and insurance amounts to estimate this current year's taxes and
insurance.

I agree that the amount of papers at closing is a lot to sign but
usually I find it to be about a dozen or less papers requiring a
signature with others in between. Regardless, you have a
responsibility to read them.

Assuming you kept a record of your closing papers, you should still be
able to see how Countrywide estimated your escrow as of the closing
date. That may not help you much now but at least you could see how
they calculated it .

And assuming they made a mistake in their escrow calculation, you
should be able to verify the present one if you know what your current
taxes and insurance are, amount of buffer, when the readjustment in
escrow occurred during the 12 months and how much you had in escrow at
that point If this doesn't make sense, call them and ask them
"politely" to explain slowly so you can write it all down.

Don't forget to include in your escrow calculation, any shortages x 2
and a 2 to 3 month reserve (I think you said 16.6% in your case).

I'm curious what Countrywide used for your estimated escrow of taxes
and insurance if they didn't use last year's numbers but all this is a
moot point now as you control your own escrow.

Enjoy and make sure you read your taxes / insurance invoices and pay
them ON time. I can't speak for your insurance but Houstonians
usually see their property tax amounts for a current year in the
latter part of November. Also a lot of this stuff is on line too, if
that helps you.

Good Luck.



On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:09:44 GMT, "Richard" wrote:

I understand how they do it. That part is real easy. Work up the amortized
loan package. Check your reference chart for estimated nominal taxes and
insurance for this type property in that local. Add them up. Divide by
twelve. Round up. Principle + interest + 1/12 escrow = payment. Simple. My
first ex-wife, with a HS diploma, did it for Caprock Savings in Monahans, TX
back before oil went bust.

I just don't understand why they should have had to "estimate" or even
"calculate it" when they have solid hard factual information at their finger
tips. When you have an established escrow payment history, stored in their
own computer system, and fail to consult it during the function of
refinancing a existing loan, you can't make excuses why the insurance
payment is off by over a thousand dollars. I can tolerate ignorance. This
falls under the heading of "real f_ck_ng stupid".

Oh well.
The escrow account is closed. I get to take care of it all.
My mission now is to make the consumer more wary of Countrywide Home Loans
and others like them.
Just issued a complaint with my local BBB.

Richard
Houston, TX


"frankg" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 14:37:55 GMT, "Richard"
wrote:

I agree I should have looked at and scrutinized all the four dozen papers
I
signed at closing.

What really bothered me was that they didn't even peek at my old loan to
find out what the last ten years of taxes and insurance were. What they
used
for information for their "estimate" didn't even come close. Normally I
would have to describe their actions as moronic. But real professionals
wouldn't do something moronic unless there is an alternative goal. What
looks like a simple oversight on the surface may cover their true
intentions. If they used this same simpleton estimate scheme on me, then
they've also used it on the thousands of people that refinanced with
Countrywide.

What do you get when you take 2 months (16.6%) of the escrow account
reserve
(about $760 in my case) and multiply that by 500 or 1000? A pretty good
chuck of change that they can use as they please. I would bet Countrywide
refinanced more than a couple thousand folks in 2002. Maybe a couple more
1000 in 2003. I wonder how many of them have (or will) experienced escrow
account problems? Maybe a federal investigation would answer that
question.

Richard




I'm not sure why you think they should look before last year's taxes
and insurance amounts to estimate this current year's taxes and
insurance.

I agree that the amount of papers at closing is a lot to sign but
usually I find it to be about a dozen or less papers requiring a
signature with others in between. Regardless, you have a
responsibility to read them.

Assuming you kept a record of your closing papers, you should still be
able to see how Countrywide estimated your escrow as of the closing
date. That may not help you much now but at least you could see how
they calculated it .

And assuming they made a mistake in their escrow calculation, you
should be able to verify the present one if you know what your current
taxes and insurance are, amount of buffer, when the readjustment in
escrow occurred during the 12 months and how much you had in escrow at
that point If this doesn't make sense, call them and ask them
"politely" to explain slowly so you can write it all down.

"Richard" wrote...
I understand how they do it. That part is real easy. Work up the amortized
loan package. Check your reference chart for estimated nominal taxes and
insurance for this type property in that local. Add them up. Divide by
twelve. Round up. Principle + interest + 1/12 escrow = payment. Simple. My
first ex-wife, with a HS diploma, did it for Caprock Savings in Monahans, TX
back before oil went bust.

That's the way they SHOULD do it... However, that doesn't maximize their
take -- at your expense...


I just don't understand why they should have had to "estimate" or even
"calculate it" when they have solid hard factual information at their finger
tips. When you have an established escrow payment history, stored in their
own computer system, and fail to consult it during the function of
refinancing a existing loan, you can't make excuses why the insurance
payment is off by over a thousand dollars. I can tolerate ignorance. This
falls under the heading of "real f_ck_ng stupid".

Actually, it's closer to deliberate fraud that simple stupidity.

First they calculate the 1/12. Then they add some 'cushion' (say, $500) to make
sure your account doesn't get anywhere near 0 any time during the year. Then
they add some 'J factor' (say, 20%), which is what they think the insurance
premium and tax COULD increase NEXT year, given worst case. Maybe they have
some other additive, just 'because they can.' THEN they add the statutory 2
months 'reserve' allowed by law -- at their already-inflated rate.

Then they absolutely refuse to pay you interest on YOUR money that they are
holding for THEIR "protection."

Finally, they make late payments, requiring late fees and/or generating dunning
notices to YOU from the insurance company and/or tax office. When you complain
and ask them to refund the penalty fees THEY caused by their incompetence, they
refuse to talk to you.

Granted, not every mortgage company is this bad. OTOH, I have seen pieces of it
in almost every one I've dealt with...

I got an escrow overage refund a couple years after we closed on the first
loan. It is much better when they take out a little more and things work out
smoothly.

But if they pretend they are "estimating" the escrow and you don't check
their numbers (during closing) you will get screwed two ways. The mortgage
company can now confiscate two months of your hard earned money and not pay
you one penny of interest on it. Then you get to make up both the shortage
and the difference with a much larger escrow payment. Plus they get to jack
up your house payment right before Christmas (because that's when taxes come
due).

You have to remember that Countrywide Home Loans is based in California.
They need the extra cash to offset the cost of living out there.

Richard
Houston, TX


"Tony" wrote in message
...
My original mortgage was with Countrywide and then a little over a year
ago
I also refinanced with them.

One thing you didn't mention that you might want to check on....

With my mortgage they do an automatic yearly escrow review and adjust the
montly amount based on the actual expenses the previous year. As a
result,
a couple of months ago I got a refund of $200 because there was too much
in
my escrow account. They also lowered my payment at that time.

At least in my experience with Countrywide, they've kept a very small
amount
of excess in the escrow account. As you experienced, one time early in my
1st mortgage I did have to send them an "extra" amount of money because my
escrow account contribution was not covering the amount they estimated for
my property tax. Personally, I'd rather have them underestimate and let
me
make it up than have them overestimate and sit on my money in their escrow
account.

Tony

"Richard" wrote in message
...
Towards the middle of 2002 I decide to take advantage of the lower
interest
rates on homes. I had also remarried and wanted to make sure my new
spouse
was on the title. The original mortgage was with Countrywide Home Loans
(a
division of Treasury Bank N.A.) who has offices in the same building
with
General Homes, the folks who built my house. I called Countrywide up and
discussed the options and finally started the ball rolling. On October
28th
2002 we signed the paperwork at the title company to refinance the house
for
15 years at 6%.



The first sign that something was wrong was when I received a notice my
escrow account was over $1300.00 short and my monthly payment was going
from
$999.22 to $1216.51. I was alarmed at this sudden rise in the payment
and
contacted Countrywide.



Delia Whitley, with the customer service department at Countrywide, sent
me
a fairly detailed e-mailed explanation on what the escrow account was
set
up
to pay and what the actual tax and insurance bills turned out to be.
What
really caught my eye was the difference in my insurance payment. Her
e-mail
had my home owners insurance going from $874.20 to $1898.00 in one year.



Now I knew something was very wrong. I've been trying hard to keep my
insurance premiums with State Farm down with all the mold claims going
on
here in Texas. A $1023.00 increase would have been excessive under any
circumstance. I knew I could view the last 18 months of my old loan's
transactions on Countrywide's web page. I have been checking my payments
and
escrow distributions there for over ten years. I pulled up old loan
number
007338731, and sure enough, there it was. On the 17th of July 2002
Country
Home Loans sent a $1588.00 check to State Farm.



A follow-up phone conversation with Countrywide's customer service
department disclosed the methods they used when they created the new
loan
package. He explained that it was standard practice to estimate the
money
required to meet the taxes and insurance on the property. Gay Weed
informed
me that: 1) This review of your escrow account is based on information
believed to be accurate. 2) Countrywide does not guarantee that this
information is correct. 3) This information is subject to change at any
time.



When I asked why they didn't use the real numbers, stored in their own
data
base on my old loan, they became defensive. I was told I should have
checked
the escrow account numbers to make sure they were right. I admit I
should
have, now looking at this matter in retrospect. I had no idea they would
use
fabricated monetary values for my property taxes and insurance. I had
refinanced my house with the same lender. I doesn't take a rocket
scientist
to pull up my old loan history, located in their own computer, and copy
those historical "real numbers" into the new loan's escrow account.



This is when I got very angry. I referred to their "estimated" escrow
numbers as "bovine putrid fecal matter". I wanted to know where they got
their numbers from. They wouldn't say. I wanted to find out who sold
home
owners insurance in Texas on a 2300 square foot house, about 100 miles
from
the Gulf of Mexico, for $875.00 per year. They couldn't say.



What they did tell me was that Countrywide would have to collect an
additional 2 months of escrow reserve to cover any future shortages. The
RESPA Act allows them to do this. They would get to collect an
additional
16.6% of my money, store it away to draw interest for Countrywide,
because
they screwed up? I could prevent this by sending them $1300.38 to cover
the
cost difference present in my escrow account. That is when I decided to
close the escrow account and take over all the payments for taxes and
insurance.



I am lucky. I just paid off my truck. I have some resources to draw from
to
cover my taxes this year. Christmas was lean but we made it. What I'm
wondering now is how many people out there have fallen victim to this
type
of "escrow estimate" scam run by Countrywide Home Loans. They have no
reason
to use real numbers. The RESPA Act allows them to screw anyone who falls
into their trap. The victim is made to believe that Countrywide is
helping
them out of this jam.



Has anyone else out there fallen victim to this type of scam? Your US
Government passed the RESPA Act to protect YOU, the consumer.
Countrywide
Home Loans has figured as way to "pop" their own customer's a year after
they refinanced with the government's blessing. I just sent Tom Martino,
the
radio consumer advocate, a copy of what you see above. Hopefully someone
will call him and add their own two cents worth..



--

Richard I Williamson
Houston, Texas

Countrywide was fine on the first original home loan. It was when I
refinanced in October 2002 that things got really bad. Some moron at
Countrywide had me down for $850 for my yearly insurance payment. This was
two months after they cut a check for $1588 to State Farm on my old loan.

I've never had any problems with State Farm on my home owners insurance.
They've put on a new roof and repaired the damage from the upstairs water
heater.

Richard
Houston, TX


"Gini" wrote in message
...

"Richard" wrote in message
...
Towards the middle of 2002 I decide to take advantage of the lower
interest
rates on homes. I had also remarried and wanted to make sure my new
spouse
was on the title. The original mortgage was with Countrywide Home Loans
(a
division of Treasury Bank N.A.) who has offices in the same building
with
General Homes, the folks who built my house. I called Countrywide up and
discussed the options and finally started the ball rolling. On October
28th
2002 we signed the paperwork at the title company to refinance the house
for
15 years at 6%.



The first sign that something was wrong was when I received a notice my
escrow account was over $1300.00 short and my monthly payment was going
from
$999.22 to $1216.51. I was alarmed at this sudden rise in the payment
and
contacted Countrywide.
==
We have a mortgage with Chase Manhattan. It is not uncommon for our escrow
payment
to change yearly, however it is always in the neighborhood of $25.00.
Perhaps
you should compare rates with other insurers.
==

Just filled out the on-line compliant form for the Houston BBB. Seems the
BBB has them on their list for "not responding to complaints".

I also have messages in to the Texas Attorney General's Office and my local
state reps. Maybe they have broken some laws or conducted themselves in an
unethical manor.

Richard
Houston, TX



"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:7GjJb.717784$HS4.5167709@attbi_s01...
"Richard" wrote...

He explained that it was standard practice to estimate the money
required to meet the taxes and insurance on the property. Gay Weed
informed
me that: 1) This review of your escrow account is based on information
believed to be accurate. 2) Countrywide does not guarantee that this
information is correct. 3) This information is subject to change at any
time.

When I asked why they didn't use the real numbers, stored in their own
data
base on my old loan, they became defensive.

I wanted to find out who sold home
owners insurance in Texas on a 2300 square foot house, about 100 miles
from
the Gulf of Mexico, for $875.00 per year. They couldn't say.

Been there, done that, though with a couple other lenders. Last time it
took me
about 4 months to get it straightened out, including letters to the VA
office
that handles home loans and to another federal regulatory agency (forgot
which
one -- it's been several years).

You have to be persistent, follow up by sending them all pertinent,
current
information, and follow through with any "threats" to complain to the
regulatory
agencies. Also, insist on a copy of ANY regulation they say "requires"
some
[in]action on their part. I found that the method they used by default to
calculate escrow payments was a method specifically DISCOURAGED by the VA
regulation as unsuitable and inaccurate.

Unfortunately, some people do not have the option of closing the escrow
account
because of the contract they signed. The only way to fight then is to
continue
fighting.


What they did tell me was that Countrywide would have to collect an
additional 2 months of escrow reserve to cover any future shortages. The
RESPA Act allows them to do this. They would get to collect an
additional
16.6% of my money, store it away to draw interest for Countrywide,
because
they screwed up?

IIRC, there are limitations on this practice, especially if they use the
particularly adverse (for the customer) method of calculating your escrow
payment that the VA discourages. I don't think they can put the 16% on
top of
other reserves or "cushions" -- just over the projected $0 account balance
that
will be reached when the tax or insurance payment is made.

Again, do your research and be a pest!

I took over control of my escrow account right before Christmas.
I keep the money at my credit union drawing interest.

Richard
Houston, TX

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...

I am a very happy Countrywide customer, but that aside...


Why don't you take care of the impounds yourself?


Dimitri

D. Gerasimatos wrote:
:
: I am a very happy Countrywide customer, but that aside...
:
:
: Why don't you take care of the impounds yourself?


How easy is it to get rid of the impound account? I refinanced with
Countrywide last year and they calculated the impound account on only
half of the year's taxes so this year my payments went up. I have no
beef with them but I'd like to handle the impound myself. The refi
came with an impound account so I don't know if I can get out of it
easily.

Thanks, Paul