I am considering participating in a new program my employer has to buy a
home in my employer's area with financial assistance on their part.
Unfortunately, the homes I could afford are real fixer uppers and the
neighborhood is high crime. I am single (but that might change one day).
I have no kids. I live in a small apartment in a suburban area now. I
also want to live in larger quarters very much.

My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse. My
dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

This deal works out in my parents' favor because they have a large fund
that's due to pay off in a few months and they would live in a nicer
neighborhood and a nicer home. When my dad (who I expect to outlive my
mom) needs nursing care, we will have the means to provide it in-house.
My dad has met with his financial advisor, and this is the idea they
came up with.

My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.

So the idea is that they would "do whatever it takes" (quoting my dad)
to get me into a nice house in a safe neighborhood next year, but that
we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite). My dad will do the
preliminary shopping for the house. My parents also want to have final
approval of the home and the neighborhood. I can live with those
conditions.

My dad is a home builder by trade and he did certified home inspections
part time, so he's more than qualified to shop for houses. I would have
a lot of input into the decision, of course. Another down side is, it
would increase my commute to work, but it would be tolerable, around 45
minutes each way. My daily commute now is around 20 minutes.

I have been living outside my parents' house since age 21, which is more
than half my life. I was sick a few years ago and I stayed with my
parents for tree weeks to recover, at doctor's orders. During that time,
we got along fine.

I have one younger sister. Knowing my parents, they discussed this idea
with my sister and her husband before telling me about it. She and her
husband were there when my parents proposed this idea to me. They are
fine with it. They said they are not concerned with my parents giving me
this money and that when the time comes, we can make a deal if my
parents have any money left over in their estate. My sister,
brother-in-law, and I are very close, so no rivalry there and they both
are professionals with a good income.

The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us? Has anyone done this? My
sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
about it, but she was not available when I called last night.

So what would you do in tis situation?

Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:15:53 -0500 from Shawn Hirn :
The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us?

Nobody can really answer this for you.

One thing I will say is that the three of you should agree on the
financial arrangements (including what happens when anyone dies), and
visit a lawyer before anyone signs papers on a house. Money is the
root of many bitter family disputes, so you want to make sure that
everyone has the same understanding and there are no surprises.

The lawyer should make sure that everyone understands and agrees what
will happen, and she should draw up papers for all three of you to
sign. Yes, it will cost a few hundred dollars, but that's nothing
compared to the cost of a house or to the cost of a bitter family
war.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

In article ,
Shawn Hirn wrote:

The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us? Has anyone done this? My
sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
about it, but she was not available when I called last night.

So what would you do in tis situation?

I would send my parents to live on an ice floe before i let them move in
with me. Hell, i'd give them my house and move onto the ice flow myself!

Not knowing the dynamics of your relationship w/ your parents, it's kind
of hard to judge, but ...

It comes down to: do it your way, the "hard" way, or do it your parent's
way.

Live in your own home or share a house with your parents.

hmmmm....

Speaking strictly from my own perspective i'd strongly urge you to go it
alone. Buy yourself a ****ty fixerupper and live your own life.

I have experience with the bad neighborhood thing. I lived in a fairly
gang-infested neighborhood of Aurora Il (100 S. Lincoln Ave block) for
several years.

One thing i discovered about "high crime", at least gang crime, is that
it was pretty internicine; the (young, latino) gangbangers tormented
each other but never bothered me in the slightest. In fact, outside
their gang thing, they were generally good neighbors. I wouldn't
presume to speak for all gangbangers, esp, those i've never met, so
ymmv. But the thing i learned about "high crime" is that a lot of it
doesn't get "on you" if you don't play with it, so to speak.

Which is a way of saying that maybe a "hight crime" neighborhood isn't
as bad as it might appear at first glance.

There's also a bit of satisfaction in fixing up your own dwelling. You
learn stuff. You make it your own. You can buy ... Tools! then MORE
tools!

So based on the median of all the people, families, parents and
neighborhoods i've experienced, i'd say: go it alone.

and:
You owe it to yourself to have your own freedom, and you have no more
responsibility to provide a place for them to live than your sister
does. And if your parents ante-up for a sizeable down payment and
contribute to the mortgage .... they'll have consderable say over how
you (Shawn) take care of your (Mom, Dad and shawn) house.

Don't be seduced by the shiny object.

etc.

..max

--
The part of betatron @ earthlink . net was played by a garden gnome

In article ,
Stan Brown wrote:

Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:15:53 -0500 from Shawn Hirn :
The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us?

Nobody can really answer this for you.

One thing I will say is that the three of you should agree on the
financial arrangements (including what happens when anyone dies), and
visit a lawyer before anyone signs papers on a house. Money is the
root of many bitter family disputes, so you want to make sure that
everyone has the same understanding and there are no surprises.

The lawyer should make sure that everyone understands and agrees what
will happen, and she should draw up papers for all three of you to
sign. Yes, it will cost a few hundred dollars, but that's nothing
compared to the cost of a house or to the cost of a bitter family
war.

I agree that legal review is essential, but my dad's luke warm on that
idea. Fortunately, one of my cousins is an attorney who was a real
estate agent before she went to law school. I know she would be offended
if we did not enlist her services. This cousin has reviewed every real
estate transaction that's occurred in my family, so I don't see why this
would be any different. She does this for free, but I will insist on
taking her and her husband out somewhere nice for dinner to thank her.

In article ,
max wrote:

In article ,
Shawn Hirn wrote:

The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us? Has anyone done this? My
sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
about it, but she was not available when I called last night.

So what would you do in tis situation?

I would send my parents to live on an ice floe before i let them move in
with me. Hell, i'd give them my house and move onto the ice flow myself!

Not knowing the dynamics of your relationship w/ your parents, it's kind
of hard to judge, but ...

It comes down to: do it your way, the "hard" way, or do it your parent's
way.

Live in your own home or share a house with your parents.

Its definitely something to consider. Having been mugged twice, I am not
so sure I subscribe to your theory that the thugs only bother other
thugs. I was beaten up and attacked just a few months ago in broad
daylight while riding my bike, so crime is a concern for me.

In article , Shawn Hirn
says...

In article ,
Stan Brown wrote:

Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:15:53 -0500 from Shawn Hirn :
The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us?

Nobody can really answer this for you.

One thing I will say is that the three of you should agree on the
financial arrangements (including what happens when anyone dies), and
visit a lawyer before anyone signs papers on a house. Money is the
root of many bitter family disputes, so you want to make sure that
everyone has the same understanding and there are no surprises.

The lawyer should make sure that everyone understands and agrees what
will happen, and she should draw up papers for all three of you to
sign. Yes, it will cost a few hundred dollars, but that's nothing
compared to the cost of a house or to the cost of a bitter family
war.

I agree that legal review is essential, but my dad's luke warm on that
idea. Fortunately, one of my cousins is an attorney who was a real
estate agent before she went to law school. I know she would be offended
if we did not enlist her services. This cousin has reviewed every real
estate transaction that's occurred in my family, so I don't see why this
would be any different. She does this for free, but I will insist on
taking her and her husband out somewhere nice for dinner to thank her.

How close is your cousin to your parents?

You really need a *disinterested* (as in, no interest either way) lawyer.
Insist on it. If your parents kick up any more fuss about it, consider that a
solid warning that they would be difficult to deal with on a day to day basis if
you go ahead.

Also, consider that some of the motivation for this is to have you be a
caretaker in their declining years. With you sharing quarters day to day you
inevitably will be the primary person involved. Consider further that this may
be a reason your sister is so quick to endorse the deal. This all may be fine
with you or even something you may feel honored to do. But you need to think
ahead and be aware.

Like someone else said, only you can answer these questions. On paper, it makes
all the sense in the world. To live it out depends on your whole family
dynamic. But the legal part of it - do it, and hire someone totally outside the
situation for it.

Banty

"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...
I am considering participating in a new program my employer has to buy a
home in my employer's area with financial assistance on their part.
Unfortunately, the homes I could afford are real fixer uppers and the
neighborhood is high crime. I am single (but that might change one day).
I have no kids. I live in a small apartment in a suburban area now. I
also want to live in larger quarters very much.

My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse. My
dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

This deal works out in my parents' favor because they have a large fund
that's due to pay off in a few months and they would live in a nicer
neighborhood and a nicer home. When my dad (who I expect to outlive my
mom) needs nursing care, we will have the means to provide it in-house.
My dad has met with his financial advisor, and this is the idea they
came up with.

My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.

So the idea is that they would "do whatever it takes" (quoting my dad)
to get me into a nice house in a safe neighborhood next year, but that
we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite). My dad will do the
preliminary shopping for the house. My parents also want to have final
approval of the home and the neighborhood. I can live with those
conditions.

My dad is a home builder by trade and he did certified home inspections
part time, so he's more than qualified to shop for houses. I would have
a lot of input into the decision, of course. Another down side is, it
would increase my commute to work, but it would be tolerable, around 45
minutes each way. My daily commute now is around 20 minutes.

I have been living outside my parents' house since age 21, which is more
than half my life. I was sick a few years ago and I stayed with my
parents for tree weeks to recover, at doctor's orders. During that time,
we got along fine.

I have one younger sister. Knowing my parents, they discussed this idea
with my sister and her husband before telling me about it. She and her
husband were there when my parents proposed this idea to me. They are
fine with it. They said they are not concerned with my parents giving me
this money and that when the time comes, we can make a deal if my
parents have any money left over in their estate. My sister,
brother-in-law, and I are very close, so no rivalry there and they both
are professionals with a good income.

The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us? Has anyone done this? My
sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
about it, but she was not available when I called last night.

So what would you do in tis situation?

Forget this idea because you will live to regret it. What if something ever
happens with your job and you are forced to move? Yes, you say your job is
secure, but stuff happens.

You have not been living with your parents. Are you certain everyone can
adapt to this new situation? Why don't you consider moving in with them for
a while but still keep your place just in case you want to move back there.
Give the living together thing a try first.

Think about the situation with your parents. What would happen if you did
meet somebody? Would that person be agreeable to living with your parents
until both of them die? Are you also willing to live and care for your
parents for the rest of their lives? You say you father will most likely
outlive your mother, but can you be certain?
JMHO, but your parents shouldn't give up their money and put the house in
your name. What happens if any of you are not happy with the living
arrangement after you buy the new house? Are you going to be able to return
your parents' money and still keep the new house?

Have you considered that your sibling may be agreeable to this because she
doesn't wish to assume any responsibility for your parents and view this
arrangement as a key to avoiding responsibility? What happens if one of
your parents actually has to go to a nursing home? You don't know what may
happen in the future. As much as you want, it isn't always possible to care
for an aging parent at home. Do you know the cost of providing in-home 24-7
care? Will your parents have the money to pay for their care if they put
so much money into buying a new home with you? Will your sister be willing
to contribute to their care if necessary when you received such a large gift
from your parents? Have you considered the money for the house is going to
be a gift to you and any tax event that may be created?

What happens to your parents if you should happen to die first? You are
making a lot of assumptions. Could they afford the upkeep, taxes, and all
utilities on their own?

My opinion, I'd run from this situation at Olympic speeds. Buy your own
house. Live your own life. Make your own decisions. You may be getting a
nicer house but it is going to come with strings, very long strings. Buy
something you can afford on your own so you are free to do as you please.

However, if you do decide to buy the new house with your parents, be
certain all involved see their own lawyers and consider all aspects of the
situation.

Banty wrote:
In article , Shawn Hirn
says...

In article ,
Stan Brown wrote:


Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:15:53 -0500 from Shawn Hirn :

The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us?


I completely agree with everyone else. NO NO NO!

In fact, there should be a rule that parents and grown kids
live 50 miles apart. Too far to visit every day, but
close enough to visit on the weekend. Many good
relationships have been ruined by a little parental
meddling. But a jealous friend can be more dangerous ;-)

Caregiver, unless you are trained for the job, is a real
killer too. I think each year is equal to 10 years of heavy
smoking. You can't predict the future, but you can prepare
for eventualities.

What neighborhood ~isn't~ becoming a ~bad~ neighborhood
these days? Previous post about gang bangers is true. But
a drug infested neighborhood is a real risk, since they
always need drug money and live in a haze far from reality.

Grow to be all you can be and stay the best of friends with
your parents. Remember the ole saying "Green and growing,
or ripe and rotting"

-- larry / dallas

"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...

My parents . . . want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.
. . .
This deal works out in my parents' favor because . . .
My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.
. . .
we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite).
. . .
The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us?

Nothing in your long post suggests any emotional pitfall
ahead. (But separate apartments under the same physical
roof are not what we usually mean by "sharing a house.")
Since your dad's fin. adviser and lawyers approve, you might
endanger the proposal by seeking too much peripheral
advice e.g. from the relative who is a "clinical psychologist."
If the participants at ages 40 and 70+ do not know their
own minds already, no amount of psychological speculation
seems likely to be helpful. (My parents on retirement moved
into grandma's house. There was ample room and it suited
all participants.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Sorry, but this sounds like a bad idea all around.

1. Far more house than you can afford.

2. Far more house than they can afford. If you die or lose your job,
could they pay the mortgage?

3. An extra hour per day of commuting time for you. Plus the extra
time you will spend taking care of your parents. You might be far
better off just taking a second job.

4. Is living in a row house a problem because of *stairs*? Is that
why they want to move? Into a ranch style house all on one floor?

5. Neither you nor your parents has lived in a single family house?
Are they up to managing its continual upkeep? Yard work, exterior
repairs, raking and shoveling, taking garbage to the curb.

6. A single floor single family house ... would that be in a suburb?
How far from stores etc? Can your parents still drive a car? For
how much longer?

7. You will be the designated in-home care-giver. If that is your
choice, then make it so, but don't make it so complicated. Realize
that caregiving can be a 24 hours per day, 365 days per year *job*.

Una

In article , Don Phillipson says...

"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...

My parents . . . want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.
. . .
This deal works out in my parents' favor because . . .
My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.
. . .
we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite).
. . .
The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us?

Nothing in your long post suggests any emotional pitfall
ahead. (But separate apartments under the same physical
roof are not what we usually mean by "sharing a house.")
Since your dad's fin. adviser and lawyers approve, you might
endanger the proposal by seeking too much peripheral
advice e.g. from the relative who is a "clinical psychologist."

Any deal that would fall through because outside advice is sought is a bad deal
practically by definition. What wise person would put up with such a limit.

Banty

Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:21:44 -0500 from Shawn Hirn :
I agree that legal review is essential, but my dad's luke warm on that
idea. Fortunately, one of my cousins is an attorney who was a real
estate agent before she went to law school.

IMHO, this is a *really* bad idea. She's setting herself up to be
blamed in a few years if any of the parties become dissatisfied with
what they agreed to.

There's a reason why doctors and lawyers don't do anything non-
routine for family members: they can't have the objectivity that they
need to do their jobs.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's
been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/

In article , (Una) wrote:

Sorry, but this sounds like a bad idea all around.

1. Far more house than you can afford.

Not so. I can make the mortgage payments. Not a problem. Its the down
payment that's a problem for me, but the actual mortgage payments for a
house we would find suitable are fine.

2. Far more house than they can afford. If you die or lose your job,
could they pay the mortgage?

My parents and I are well-insured.

3. An extra hour per day of commuting time for you. Plus the extra
time you will spend taking care of your parents. You might be far
better off just taking a second job.

Perhaps.

4. Is living in a row house a problem because of *stairs*? Is that
why they want to move? Into a ranch style house all on one floor?

My parents' desire to move is based on several factors, but negotiating
stairs is one of those reasons.

5. Neither you nor your parents has lived in a single family house?
Are they up to managing its continual upkeep? Yard work, exterior
repairs, raking and shoveling, taking garbage to the curb.

My parents already leave in a single-family house. My dad is an avid
gardener, and I am very handy. Garbage and many other chores have to be
dealt with regardless of our living arrangements.

6. A single floor single family house ... would that be in a suburb?
How far from stores etc? Can your parents still drive a car? For
how much longer?

My dad purchased a new car about 8 months ago. The neighborhood they
have in mind is within walking distance of numerous stores. More
shopping options are available with a 5-10 minute drive.

7. You will be the designated in-home care-giver. If that is your
choice, then make it so, but don't make it so complicated. Realize
that caregiving can be a 24 hours per day, 365 days per year *job*.

Fortunately, we have the means to hire help, but I will no doubt be
called upon to help with my parents when the time comes, to one degree
or another. My sister and her husband are also nearby and willing to
help too.

Thanks for your comments. My sister, brother-in-law, and I just got back
from dinner and we discussed this. They think its a great idea. I am
still pondering it.

In article ,
"Janie" wrote:

Forget this idea because you will live to regret it. What if something ever
happens with your job and you are forced to move? Yes, you say your job is
secure, but stuff happens.

You have not been living with your parents. Are you certain everyone can
adapt to this new situation? Why don't you consider moving in with them for
a while but still keep your place just in case you want to move back there.
Give the living together thing a try first.

I did live with my folks for three weeks when I had to take a medical
leave from work. I slept in my old bedroom. Initially, I was concerned
that my parents and I wouldn't get along, but we were fine and they even
tolerated my cat, who stayed with me during that period.

Think about the situation with your parents. What would happen if you did
meet somebody? Would that person be agreeable to living with your parents
until both of them die? Are you also willing to live and care for your
parents for the rest of their lives? You say you father will most likely
outlive your mother, but can you be certain?

Of course, nothing in life is certain. My dad could get hit by a truck
on his way home from the gym; he still works out several times a week.
My parents are not asking me to care for them the rest of their lives;
their medical insurance provides for care, but I would absolutely be
there to help, even if we continued to live in separate homes.

JMHO, but your parents shouldn't give up their money and put the house in
your name. What happens if any of you are not happy with the living
arrangement after you buy the new house? Are you going to be able to return
your parents' money and still keep the new house?

More than likely, we'll get a duplex. If my folks move out (to a nursing
home, for example), or I get a job outside this area (very unlikely),
then the vacant half can be rented out. Either way, we will not take on
a mortgage that neither of us can handle if the other isn't available.

Have you considered that your sibling may be agreeable to this because she
doesn't wish to assume any responsibility for your parents and view this
arrangement as a key to avoiding responsibility? What happens if one of
your parents actually has to go to a nursing home? You don't know what may
happen in the future. As much as you want, it isn't always possible to care
for an aging parent at home. Do you know the cost of providing in-home 24-7
care? Will your parents have the money to pay for their care if they put
so much money into buying a new home with you? Will your sister be willing
to contribute to their care if necessary when you received such a large gift
from your parents? Have you considered the money for the house is going to
be a gift to you and any tax event that may be created?

I have to look into the financial angle, but my dad said he and his
accountant spent quite a bit of time figuring this out. I hold a high
degree of trust in my parents, but I will certainly look into any tax
liabilities as we get closer to looking for a house.

What happens to your parents if you should happen to die first? You are
making a lot of assumptions. Could they afford the upkeep, taxes, and all
utilities on their own?

I will leave them as a beneficiary on my life insurance. I also have
enough money in my 401K to pay cash for the house, so I would adjust my
will to leave them that money and the house would be paid off.

My opinion, I'd run from this situation at Olympic speeds. Buy your own
house. Live your own life. Make your own decisions. You may be getting a
nicer house but it is going to come with strings, very long strings. Buy
something you can afford on your own so you are free to do as you please.

However, if you do decide to buy the new house with your parents, be
certain all involved see their own lawyers and consider all aspects of the
situation.

Absolutely! Thank you.

In article ,
Banty wrote:

How close is your cousin to your parents?

You really need a *disinterested* (as in, no interest either way) lawyer.
Insist on it. If your parents kick up any more fuss about it, consider that
a solid warning that they would be difficult to deal with on a day to day basis
if you go ahead.

Also, consider that some of the motivation for this is to have you be a
caretaker in their declining years. With you sharing quarters day to day you
inevitably will be the primary person involved. Consider further that this
may be a reason your sister is so quick to endorse the deal. This all may be
fine with you or even something you may feel honored to do. But you need to
think ahead and be aware.

Like someone else said, only you can answer these questions. On paper, it
makes all the sense in the world. To live it out depends on your whole family
dynamic. But the legal part of it - do it, and hire someone totally outside
the situation for it.

From a financial point of view, my parents' offer makes a lot of sense.
Your comment about using my cousin to do the legal work is well-taken.
Finding an attorney who is not a relative is not a big deal. I don't
know why, but I know quiet a few lawyers socially, so finding
inexpensive legal representation is easy.

Shawn Hirn wrote:

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

My sister (with her husband and children) did this with my elderly mom,
and it is working out perfectly fine, except they ended up doing what
they needed to in order to get her name off the mortgage, because there
were potential Medicare-type complications.

The fact that they gave you such a HUGE gift could cause major problems
with Medicare if one of them gets ill in the next X (I don't know what
the number is) years, because Medicare will look at that as an attempt
to hide money in order to take money from the system instead of use
their own funds. And if you put their name on the title of the house to
try to avoid having it look like that, the fact that they own a house
will cause problems with Medicare as well.

Apart from that, which you should investigate thoroughly before making a
decision, the rest is all family dynamics, and nobody here can tell you
whether it will work with your family or not, possibly not even your own
family members. It *is* possible for it to work out, though.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

Shawn Hirn wrote:

More than likely, we'll get a duplex. If my folks move out (to a nursing
home, for example), or I get a job outside this area (very unlikely),
then the vacant half can be rented out. Either way, we will not take on
a mortgage that neither of us can handle if the other isn't available.

If you are going to get a duplex, then you should buy one unit and your
parents the other unit, providing that you are talking about a true
duplex that is legally considered two single-family homes and not one
building set up with flats that is considered a two-family occupancy
building.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

Shawn Hirn wrote:

Thanks for your comments. My sister, brother-in-law, and I just got back
from dinner and we discussed this. They think its a great idea. I am
still pondering it.

The fact that the people who aren't involved think it is a better idea
that you, who will be involved with it, bears some pondering indeed.
You need to find out *exactly* why they think it's a great idea and see
if their reasons are okay with you.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

In article , Shawn Hirn
says...

In article ,
Banty wrote:

How close is your cousin to your parents?

You really need a *disinterested* (as in, no interest either way) lawyer.
Insist on it. If your parents kick up any more fuss about it, consider that
a solid warning that they would be difficult to deal with on a day to day basis
if you go ahead.

Also, consider that some of the motivation for this is to have you be a
caretaker in their declining years. With you sharing quarters day to day you
inevitably will be the primary person involved. Consider further that this
may be a reason your sister is so quick to endorse the deal. This all may be
fine with you or even something you may feel honored to do. But you need to
think ahead and be aware.

Like someone else said, only you can answer these questions. On paper, it
makes all the sense in the world. To live it out depends on your whole family
dynamic. But the legal part of it - do it, and hire someone totally outside
the situation for it.

From a financial point of view, my parents' offer makes a lot of sense.
Your comment about using my cousin to do the legal work is well-taken.
Finding an attorney who is not a relative is not a big deal. I don't
know why, but I know quiet a few lawyers socially, so finding
inexpensive legal representation is easy.

From your other postings, this sounds like a good idea and well within your
particular life scope, especially since you're talking about a duplex. You can
also look for what they call "mother-daughter" conversions, where a house is
divided such that there are separate kitchens and entrances.

But absolutely go through a non-family (meaning, not even a family *friend*)
lawyer.

Good luck and happy holidays,
Banty

In article , Una says...

5. Neither you nor your parents has lived in a single family house?
Are they up to managing its continual upkeep? Yard work, exterior
repairs, raking and shoveling, taking garbage to the curb.


A row house *is* a single family house. Just one that shares two sides by a
firewall.

All the exterior care, garbage, care of lawns (small that there may be, there
are lawns), sidewalk, etc. etc., are there just as for a detached house.

Banty (lived in 'post-war' attached house in the Bronx for five years)

Chloe wrote:

Just FWIW, the distinction you make with regard to terminology is not used
in my part of the country. As used here, duplex simply means two separate
living spaces which share a common wall (or floor/ceiling).

I see. Well, it's a good thing that I clarified that I was talking
about two dwellings considered to be single-family dwellings versus one
building that was considered a two-family dwelling.

My gramma lived in what I called a flat and what you could call a duplex
in Savannah, Georgia -- she had the first floor in what I can only guess
was a Victorian-era building based on what I remember about it, and
someone else lived on the second floor.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...
I am considering participating in a new program my employer has to buy a
home in my employer's area with financial assistance on their part.
Unfortunately, the homes I could afford are real fixer uppers and the
neighborhood is high crime. I am single (but that might change one day).
I have no kids. I live in a small apartment in a suburban area now. I
also want to live in larger quarters very much.

My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse. My
dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.



You call THAT tough to refuse? If you want to stay single forever, I guess
it's worth a momentary consideration. Nope, the idea still sucks. Even if
you are strong-willed enough to live your own life in spite of your parents'
constant meddling, having your parents in the same building will still have
a severe impact on your privacy, which WILL alter your behavior, likely in
ways that will hamper your social (ie sex) life.

Again, consider this only if you want to remain single for the rest of your
life. Then again, best advice would be simply do NOT do it. -Dave

I did live with my folks for three weeks when I had to take a medical
leave from work. I slept in my old bedroom. Initially, I was concerned
that my parents and I wouldn't get along, but we were fine and they even
tolerated my cat, who stayed with me during that period.

It was for three weeks with a definite END time known in advance. You have
NOT lived with your parents. If you were concerned that your parents and
you wouldn't get along, you need to trust your own instincts and LISTEN to
them. This has not been tested yet. Three weeks doesn't count. -Dave

Banty wrote:
A row house *is* a single family house.

Not necessarily.

All the exterior care, garbage, care of lawns (small that there may be, there
are lawns), sidewalk, etc. etc., are there just as for a detached house.

Not necessarily.

Una

In article , Una says...

Banty wrote:
A row house *is* a single family house.

Not necessarily.

All the exterior care, garbage, care of lawns (small that there may be, there
are lawns), sidewalk, etc. etc., are there just as for a detached house.

Not necessarily.


Oh good grief Una - *likely* so. I haven't even heard attached two-story condos
called "rowhouses" - that's an urban term.

*You're* the one who assumed that his parents owning a rowhouse meant their not
being used to the care of a single family house. Well, not necessarily so.
More than not necessarily so. OK?

Banty

Shawn Hirn wrote in news:srhi-6E9E70.08155323122007
@newsgroups.comcast.net:


My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse.
My
dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house,
put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a
large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

Your scheme above would be INCOME to you in the eyes of the IRS. They
gave you a huge gift. The mortgage lender would want to know more about
this gift. I would recommend that you all be put on the deed to the house
with proper survivorship you will inherit the house with no tax
implication. Please consult with a real estate attorney before you make
a mistake that would make you liable for a large income tax event.


--

Charles
The significant problems we face cannot be solved
at the same level of thinking we were at when we
created them. Albert Einstein

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:24:50 -0800, Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to
reply wrote:

Shawn Hirn wrote:

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

My sister (with her husband and children) did this with my elderly mom,
and it is working out perfectly fine, except they ended up doing what
they needed to in order to get her name off the mortgage, because there
were potential Medicare-type complications.

The fact that they gave you such a HUGE gift could cause major problems
with Medicare if one of them gets ill in the next X (I don't know what
the number is) years, because Medicare will look at that as an attempt
to hide money in order to take money from the system instead of use
their own funds. And if you put their name on the title of the house to
try to avoid having it look like that, the fact that they own a house
will cause problems with Medicare as well.

Excellent points above. Based on a good friend's experience, the
timeframe is three years from the date of the gift that the federal
government will thoroughly investigate financial records to verify
assets and need.

If your parents are in pretty good health, now is the time to make
this kind of transfer. I do agree with everyone else that you need to
take under advisement the long-term ramifications of this kind of
undertaking. Financially, it's a great idea, but it does jeopardize
your prospects of marriage and increase your chances of taking on huge
caretaking duties.

In article ,
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
wrote:

Shawn Hirn wrote:

More than likely, we'll get a duplex. If my folks move out (to a nursing
home, for example), or I get a job outside this area (very unlikely),
then the vacant half can be rented out. Either way, we will not take on
a mortgage that neither of us can handle if the other isn't available.

If you are going to get a duplex, then you should buy one unit and your
parents the other unit, providing that you are talking about a true
duplex that is legally considered two single-family homes and not one
building set up with flats that is considered a two-family occupancy
building.

I don't think that's an option with a duplex. You are referring to a
condo, as was pointed out by someone else.

"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
wrote:

Shawn Hirn wrote:
If you are going to get a duplex, then you should buy one unit and
your
parents the other unit, providing that you are talking about a true
duplex that is legally considered two single-family homes and not one
building set up with flats that is considered a two-family occupancy
building.

I don't think that's an option with a duplex. You are referring to a
condo, as was pointed out by someone else.

It may depend on regulations where you live. Here, duplexes can be owned by
different people. Both sides have their own utilities, and each side is
treated as though they were individual structures. My community is filled
with duplexes that were originally built as company houses. In our area,
condos tend to be on common ground with some type of housing association
having control over the grounds and exterior of the structures.

In article , Janie says...


"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
wrote:

Shawn Hirn wrote:
If you are going to get a duplex, then you should buy one unit and
your
parents the other unit, providing that you are talking about a true
duplex that is legally considered two single-family homes and not one
building set up with flats that is considered a two-family occupancy
building.

I don't think that's an option with a duplex. You are referring to a
condo, as was pointed out by someone else.

It may depend on regulations where you live. Here, duplexes can be owned by
different people. Both sides have their own utilities, and each side is
treated as though they were individual structures. My community is filled
with duplexes that were originally built as company houses. In our area,
condos tend to be on common ground with some type of housing association
having control over the grounds and exterior of the structures.



Same around here. And it is frequent that extended family members buy the two
sides of the duplex.

I think some confusion comes in because, in some parts of the country, housing
that is set up to look like duplexes and rowhouses only occur in relatively new
condo, rental, or coop developments.

But here in upstate New York, we have duplexes that are owned as two single
family houses, in Europe (as in England) it's also relatively common. One would
be on sale, the other not; one would be getting a new roof and siding; the other
not. Very common. Also, several of the military housing units I grew up in
were duplexes. Of course there there's one owner, but it's acccepted and
administered as separate units. It's just one way to increase efficiency in
setting up housing.

Banty

In article ,
Charles Quinn wrote:

Shawn Hirn wrote in news:srhi-6E9E70.08155323122007
@newsgroups.comcast.net:


My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse.
My
dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house,
put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a
large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

Your scheme above would be INCOME to you in the eyes of the IRS. They
gave you a huge gift. The mortgage lender would want to know more about
this gift. I would recommend that you all be put on the deed to the house
with proper survivorship you will inherit the house with no tax
implication. Please consult with a real estate attorney before you make
a mistake that would make you liable for a large income tax event.

Thanks. This is great advise, and my folks and I will definitely consult
with a real estate attorney before we sign on the dotted line.

On Dec 23, 8:28*pm, Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
wrote:
Shawn Hirn wrote:

More than likely, we'll get a duplex. If my folks move out (to a nursing
home, for example), or I get a job outside this area (very unlikely),
then the vacant half can be rented out. Either way, we will not take on
a mortgage that neither of us can handle if the other isn't available.

If you are going to get a duplex, then you should buy one unit and your
parents the other unit, providing that you are talking about a true
duplex that is legally considered two single-family homes and not one
building set up with flats that is considered a two-family occupancy
building.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. *Autograph your
work with excellence.

A true duplex in California is the opposite of what you describe; it's
two attached in the middle and sharing much of the plumbing (and
aren't greatly soundproofed or firewalled). There are some that are
constructed in such a way they are simply 2 attached dwellings and are
sold separately; but are sold as both sides. Most of the time these
are reasonable if you want to live in one and rent out the other; or
in Shawn's case perhaps have the parents in the other side.

On Dec 24, 4:47*am, "Chloe" wrote:
"Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply" wrote in
et...

Shawn Hirn wrote:

More than likely, we'll get a duplex. If my folks move out (to a nursing
home, for example), or I get a job outside this area (very unlikely),
then the vacant half can be rented out. Either way, we will not take on a
mortgage that neither of us can handle if the other isn't available.

If you are going to get a duplex, then you should buy one unit and your
parents the other unit, providing that you are talking about a true duplex
that is legally considered two single-family homes and not one building
set up with flats that is considered a two-family occupancy building.

Just FWIW, the distinction you make with regard to terminology is not used
in my part of the country. As used here, duplex simply means two separate
living spaces which share a common wall (or floor/ceiling). Many buildings
referred to as duplexes cannot be bought or sold as two separate units. If
they can be held in separate ownership, they're called condos. And the term
"flats" isn't used at all.

It's that British thing...we wear boots on our feet, not as a part of
the car and a bonnet goes on a baby's head, not the front of the car.
But regional terminology aside, I think most readers would know what a
"flat" is (unless they're so used to shopping at Ikea they think the
poster was talking about unassembled furniture you can throw on the
top of a VW bug).

In California, what is listed as a duplex is a two-family building, each
of which has a separate title. Sort of like a two-unit set of
townhouses, but with no homeowner's association.

Shawn Hirn wrote:
If you are going to get a duplex, then you should buy one unit and your
parents the other unit, providing that you are talking about a true
duplex that is legally considered two single-family homes and not one
building set up with flats that is considered a two-family occupancy
building.

I don't think that's an option with a duplex. You are referring to a
condo, as was pointed out by someone else.


--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

Janie wrote:
with duplexes that were originally built as company houses. In our area,
condos tend to be on common ground with some type of housing association
having control over the grounds and exterior of the structures.

My realtor here in California said that legal definition of a
condominium is that it is the ownership of a single-family living unit
in a multiple-family structure that did not include your own
personally-owned piece of ground and that had common areas that were
managed by a homeowner's association, the legal definition of a
townhouse is that it is ownership of a single-family living unit in a
multiple-family structure that did include your own personally-owned
piece of ground and that had common areas that were managed by a
homeowner's association, and if there was no homeowner's association, it
could be called a duplex, a four-plex, zero-lot-line housing, etc.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

On Dec 23, 8:15 am, Shawn Hirn wrote:
I am considering participating in a new program my employer has to buy a
home in my employer's area with financial assistance on their part.
Unfortunately, the homes I could afford are real fixer uppers and the
neighborhood is high crime. I am single (but that might change one day).
I have no kids. I live in a small apartment in a suburban area now. I
also want to live in larger quarters very much.

My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse. My
dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

This deal works out in my parents' favor because they have a large fund
that's due to pay off in a few months and they would live in a nicer
neighborhood and a nicer home. When my dad (who I expect to outlive my
mom) needs nursing care, we will have the means to provide it in-house.
My dad has met with his financial advisor, and this is the idea they
came up with.

My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.

So the idea is that they would "do whatever it takes" (quoting my dad)
to get me into a nice house in a safe neighborhood next year, but that
we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite). My dad will do the
preliminary shopping for the house. My parents also want to have final
approval of the home and the neighborhood. I can live with those
conditions.

My dad is a home builder by trade and he did certified home inspections
part time, so he's more than qualified to shop for houses. I would have
a lot of input into the decision, of course. Another down side is, it
would increase my commute to work, but it would be tolerable, around 45
minutes each way. My daily commute now is around 20 minutes.

I have been living outside my parents' house since age 21, which is more
than half my life. I was sick a few years ago and I stayed with my
parents for tree weeks to recover, at doctor's orders. During that time,
we got along fine.

I have one younger sister. Knowing my parents, they discussed this idea
with my sister and her husband before telling me about it. She and her
husband were there when my parents proposed this idea to me. They are
fine with it. They said they are not concerned with my parents giving me
this money and that when the time comes, we can make a deal if my
parents have any money left over in their estate. My sister,
brother-in-law, and I are very close, so no rivalry there and they both
are professionals with a good income.

The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us? Has anyone done this? My
sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
about it, but she was not available when I called last night.

So what would you do in tis situation?

I wouldn't do it. It may look good on paper now, but how tough would
it be to undo it all if things don't pan out. Go it alone with
something you can swing.

"Shawn Hirn" wrote in message
...
I am considering participating in a new program my employer has to buy a
home in my employer's area with financial assistance on their part.
Unfortunately, the homes I could afford are real fixer uppers and the
neighborhood is high crime. I am single (but that might change one day).
I have no kids. I live in a small apartment in a suburban area now. I
also want to live in larger quarters very much.

My folks are dead set against my idea because of high crime in the area
I am considering. My parents made me an offer that's tough to refuse. My
dad's 81. My mom's 69. I am 46. They want to essentially put down what
would contribute a large down payment toward of the cost of a house, put
it in my name, and we would share it. I would make the mortgage
payments. We would share utilities.

My parents offered to sell their modest row house and use it and a large
investment that comes due in 2008 for this purpose. My job is good and
my FICO score is high, so making the mortgage payments is not a problem
for a house my folks and I would want in the area my parents have in
mind.

This deal works out in my parents' favor because they have a large fund
that's due to pay off in a few months and they would live in a nicer
neighborhood and a nicer home. When my dad (who I expect to outlive my
mom) needs nursing care, we will have the means to provide it in-house.
My dad has met with his financial advisor, and this is the idea they
came up with.

My mom also desperately wants to move because she's tired of living in a
row house. My dad also thinks the neighborhood where they live now is on
the decline so they both want to move to a nicer neighborhood.

So the idea is that they would "do whatever it takes" (quoting my dad)
to get me into a nice house in a safe neighborhood next year, but that
we would buy a house that's large enough to have my parents and I live
there, but in separate spaces (like an in-law suite). My dad will do the
preliminary shopping for the house. My parents also want to have final
approval of the home and the neighborhood. I can live with those
conditions.

My dad is a home builder by trade and he did certified home inspections
part time, so he's more than qualified to shop for houses. I would have
a lot of input into the decision, of course. Another down side is, it
would increase my commute to work, but it would be tolerable, around 45
minutes each way. My daily commute now is around 20 minutes.

I have been living outside my parents' house since age 21, which is more
than half my life. I was sick a few years ago and I stayed with my
parents for tree weeks to recover, at doctor's orders. During that time,
we got along fine.

I have one younger sister. Knowing my parents, they discussed this idea
with my sister and her husband before telling me about it. She and her
husband were there when my parents proposed this idea to me. They are
fine with it. They said they are not concerned with my parents giving me
this money and that when the time comes, we can make a deal if my
parents have any money left over in their estate. My sister,
brother-in-law, and I are very close, so no rivalry there and they both
are professionals with a good income.

You never know how things will turn out. Whatever you do, get the family
financial details nailed down, in writing, before any of you spend so much
as a penny. My sister-in-law said for 20 years that she didn't "expect"
anything from her parents estate - my wife and I supported first them, then
my mother-in-law during those years, while her contribution was an annual
$100 Christmas gift certificate to the local supermarket. When they passed
away, she again verbally gave her "share" of the estate to my wife. But
nothing was in writing, and three years after the death of her mother, she
sued my wife for about 10 times the amount of the estate.

I don't care how well you and your sister get along, get it in writing. Get
a good lawyer to make sure everything's jake. If you get along well, she'll
understand and accomodate the legal requirements in good humor. If you
don't get along well, this will just be a foretaste of what will happen
after your parents die. And if you don't pay for a lawyer now you may have
to in the future.

The question I have, is sharing a house with my parents a good idea from
an emotional standpoint for the three of us?

Only you can answer that.

Has anyone done this? My
sister's a practicing clinical psychologist. My dad made this proposal a
few days ago, so I haven't had time to talk with my sister about it
privately. I imagine she would have said something if she thought it was
a bad idea (she's very vocal and opinionated). I plan to talk with her
about it, but she was not available when I called last night.

So what would you do in tis situation?

Talk it over with a lawyer first, and worry about the emotional aspects
second.