Hello, Please allow me to apologize for the length of this. I hope
someone can help me.

My fiance and I bought our first home together, a condo in a small
nine-unit building, a year ago. Being first-time buyers (and
relatively stupid), we did not do much research into the building
itself. We are located in New Jersey.

Now, one year later, we have discovered that the past and current
owners never formed any kind of an owners association, and that the
building was, for a time, self-managed before those responsibilites
were put in the hands of a property management company.

The problem: the building is only sixteen years old. The physical
problems of the building, so far, are slight. However, as with any
building, problems could be on the horizon. We are all extremely
dissatisfied with the property management company; they have allowed
certain aspects of the property to decline. A wooden fence surrounding
the property has begun to fall, there is evidence of termites on
another side of the fence, the interior halls are not being maintained,
etc. Ans when we do have to call them, they are nasty in the extreme.


The reason they give for this is that there is not a surplus of money -
at all - in our account. They have never contacted anyone to inform
them that the dues might have to be raised but the fact that we had no
organization may have something to do with that.

We recently started to have meetings twice a month to discuss how we
should proceed (I was voted - for now - Treasurer, based on the fact
that i am a bookkeeper by profession.)

Our for-now President offered to find another company willing to take
us on. He found a local company, who informed our President to request
copies of certain financial records from our current company. Our
President left a voice mail a few days in advance for the woman who
handles our account, asking her for the records, and giving her a ime
and date for his intended visit. When he arrived at her office at the
time he had told her he would, she left him sitting there for two
hours, and gave him only a basic document listing total income and
expenditures for the year, a good deal of which I question ($3000.00
this year, to date, for electric service? When the lights in the
common hallways are only on at night, the hallways are not
air-conditioned, and the heat is kept to a minimuim? It's not adding
up for me.)

Three days after our president made his visit, all unit owners received
certified letters, stating that property management was dropping us as
of 10/31/2005.

There is also some indication that the present property management may
have violated some of our bylaws. They told a new owner that she could
put up a satellite dish when the bylaws strictly prohibit it. When
this same new owner's poorly-installed whirlpool tub (installed by an
unlicensed contractor) leaked into another owner's storage room,
causing some major ceiling and drywall damage, our pres. was told that
this new owner contacted property management who paid for it with
whatever monies we may have had.

Does anyone have any advice at all as to how we should proceed? Should
we secure legal representation for the time being, outside of any new
property management we may sign on with? Does the fact that the condo
owners themselves were violating bylaws by not forming and
organization, having meeting, etc., nullify the fact that the present
management violated our bylaws to our financial detriment?

Can anyone help us?

Thank you so much,

J. Meier

"Now, one year later, we have discovered that the past and current
owners never formed any kind of an owners association, and that the
building was, for a time, self-managed before those responsibilites
were put in the hands of a property management company. "

This is virtually impossible. If this building is in fact a
condominium, then part of the legal documents necessary to establish
and record the title must include a Master Deed and Bylaws. Those
documents must be recorded with the deed and also filed with the Dept
of Community Affairs for the state of NJ. And those documents
establish the association which consists of all the unit owners,
describe rights of unit owners, obligations of the association for
common area maintenance, the procedure for voting, electing trustees,
officers, etc. You said you now have a President and you are
Treasurer. How could you have held an election without having an
association? Did you follow the rules in the Master Deed and Bylaws
for a valid election?

What you need to do is read the Master Deed and Bylaws and find out the
requirements for annual meetings, elections, etc. Find out what the
responsibilities of the Board of Trustees are. Make sure meetings
are held with correct notice to all unit owners. Join the NJ
Community Association Institute, which is a non-profit organization
that advocates for NJ condo associations and is a good source of
educational information and the laterst condo issues facing NJ.

IMO, if this property consists of 9 units, you have the worst of
everything. It's not large enough to have any leverage or economy of
scale in getting maintenance done. But it has much of the overhead in
the form of management oversight that would go with a condo that has
100+ units. Apparently, you are now realizing this for the first time.

I would not get all in a huff about whether the management company
might have not followed the ByLaws correctly or paid out some claim for
a leak incorrectly. If the lead happened from one owners unit to
another, it would sound to me like that should have been handled by the
insurance companies for the two unit owners, with the one causing the
leak having to pay. But if it's water under the bridge, it's probably
more important to figure out what the hell is going on and getting a
board of trustees to over see what the management company is doing. I
was President of an association for many years and issues like the
satellite dish and payment for damage from water would never have
occurred without the board having known about it. Also, no bills were
ever paid without the signatures of the Pres and Treasurer, which was
done at our regular monthly meetings.

"J. Meier" wrote in message
...
Hello, Please allow me to apologize for the length of this. I hope
someone can help me.
(snip)
Can anyone help us?

Thank you so much,

J. Meier
Condo or Co-op? Do you each own a percentage of entire building, or just
your specific unit? Does your deed address common areas, and upkeep thereof?
If you never formed an organization, how can you have bylaws? Who did the
management company have the contract with? Who was the person or entity that
opened the bank account?

I suspect that there is some legal entity, however dormant, that is on
record as controlling the common areas. Likely to be a shell company the
original builder set up. Sounds like the management company was handed the
keys to the money box at some point, and just regarded your building as a
cash cow. Now that you are getting involved, they are washing their hands of
it.

IANAL. You need one, specializing in real estate and HOAs. An outside
accountant, too. You can probably kiss off any funds the old comapany had
defacto control of. A lot will depend on the fine print in your deeds, aka
the C&Rs. Pass the hat, hire a lawyer, and have him go over all the
paperwork everyone has, and attempt to reconstruct things. He will also need
to search down at the courthouse, and find whatever was recorded for the
property. Maybe you can take over whatever abandoned association or whatever
was created way back when, or the lawyer can tell you how to officially kill
it and form a new association with all the proper paperwork in place. I'd be
real careful about signing any purchase orders related to the property
absent a legally recognized association- somebody could come after you
personally. (Say, if you contracted for a roof or something, and not all the
owners kicked in their share.) But like I said, IANAL- advice on Usenet is
worth what you paid for it.

aem sends...

There is also some indication that the present property management
may
have violated some of our bylaws. They told a new owner that she
could
put up a satellite dish when the bylaws strictly prohibit it. When


-- I believe that you cannot disallow a satellite dish by
law....however, your association can have a definitive placement of
all satelite dishses within your community...that is how you avoid
having them installed just anywhere and especially since they will be
attached to the outside of the unit which the association maintains
etc. ... that is how the law goes in Minnesota.
As a former Association President...get a good lawyer to review your
present by-laws and proceed from there.
Good luck.



jtc

"J. Meier" wrote in message
...
Hello, Please allow me to apologize for the length of this. I hope
someone can help me.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:31:06 -0500, someone wrote:

"Now, one year later, we have discovered that the past and current
owners never formed any kind of an owners association, and that the
building was, for a time, self-managed before those responsibilites
were put in the hands of a property management company. "

This is virtually impossible.....

Easy now, let's not nitpick him because his terminology might be
technically incorrect. Yeah yeah yeah the recorded documents call for
an Association, BoD, etc.

BUT sure as Hell it is possible that nobody did nuthin' for a long
time. No meetings, didn't elect officers, didn't establish a bank
account, etc. No ACTUAL association, it only existed "on paper".
VERY possible.

Then they go a Management Company because nobody wanted to do the
thankless job and be the target of constsant gripes for free, and if a
resident took money for the job, the others would resent him/her.
Nobody watched the Management Company and now this guy is griping.

So call a meeting and run for office and make all the disclosures and
reports you think should properly be done. Do that first before
griping about anybody else's corruption or poor peformance.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

"Easy now, let's not nitpick him because his terminology might be
technically incorrect. Yeah yeah yeah the recorded documents call for
an Association, BoD, etc.

BUT sure as Hell it is possible that nobody did nuthin' for a long
time. No meetings, didn't elect officers, didn't establish a bank
account, etc. No ACTUAL association, it only existed "on paper".
VERY possible. "

I don't think it's nit picking to point out that there must in fact be
an association consisting of all the unit owners. And yes, it's
possible that it just disappeared into the sunset. But, I've never
heard of it happening.


"Then they go a Management Company "

Whose the "they", if not the association? Somebody had to hire them.
So, at that point there must have been an association decision. Also,
a reputable condo management company would not take on a job where the
association did not properly hire and empower them, hold annual
meetings, etc.

"So call a meeting and run for office and make all the disclosures and
reports you think should properly be done. Do that first before
griping about anybody else's corruption or poor peformance. "

Agreed.

And perhaps most interesting of all, is how someone comes in here one
fine day, with a post like this, and then despite people offering all
kinds of advice and opinions, the OP is never heard from again!

On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:43:36 -0500, someone wrote:


Whose the "they", if not the association? Somebody had to hire them.
So, at that point there must have been an association decision. Also,
a reputable condo management company would not take on a job where the
association did not properly hire and empower them, hold annual
meetings, etc.

Who says the company is reputable? ;-)

"They" might have been an owner calling them up and saying the other
owners want the company to manage the building. As long as the
company gets their check every month, they may not care. Small
organizations, both non-profit associations and small for-profit
businesses, are notorious for not filing or even preparing the
paperwork that is technically required.

It is quite possible that nobody ever filed the right papers to
ACTUALLY establish the "Association" called for in the original
documents. Or if they did, nobody filed the annual papers to keep it
going, and it has long since been disincorporated by the State for
failure to file.


And perhaps most interesting of all, is how someone comes in here one
fine day, with a post like this, and then despite people offering all
kinds of advice and opinions, the OP is never heard from again!

Veddy interesting.....


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.