We recently had a new gas furnace and central AC installed. Paid about
$4700 from a local well known company for Rheem equipment (2-1/2 ton 10 SEER
AC and an 80% dual stage, variable speed 75,000 BTU (I think) furnace for a
1750 sq ft home). It took two guys a good 7 hours to do the work. We're in
upstate NY.

A second quote from another local company that's well known was anywhere
from $4700 to $6500 for Carrier equipment - depending on the efficiency
ratings.

A co-worker's husband does commercial HVAC for a school district and does
installs on the side. He quoted me for $3700 for a similar Rheem
installation.

A neighbor across the street does HVAC for a living - saw the vans parked
out front and later on out of curiosity asked me how much we paid - and said
he would have come under the quote from my co-worker's husband.

I don't have buyer's remorse - I was ready to go with the co-worker's
husband, but my father-in-law is also our State Farm agent and he had
insurance concerns and all that good stuff since the co-worker's husband
wasn't bonded/insured/licensed to do the work independently. My wife didn't
doubt the quality of his work or if he would stand behind it - her concern
was if the installation was faulty she wanted deeper pockets to go after if
something went horribly wrong. Also would he stand behind his work at 2am
in January?

I didn't bother asking the neighbor for a quote first because of something
went wrong with the install or if I went with someone else - I wouldn't want
problems with him down the road. As a rule I don't do business with
friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, etc... - would rather deal with a
person I'll likely never see again - not mix business with pleasure - and
deal with someone who has deeper pockets should something go wrong and we
have to go into litigation.

I think what we paid was probably in the mid-range of what I could have
shelled out. For our house, a higher efficiency system would unlikely pay
for itself over what we had installed.

Did I get ripped - or was the $4700 I paid on par?

Did any of them do the actual calculations to verify the size of the
equipment they were installing or did they just replace what you had with
the same size stuff. If they did not do the calculations, they were all
worthless estimates and unfortunately typical of the industry in most areas.


"Les Wilson" wrote in message
...
We recently had a new gas furnace and central AC installed. Paid about
$4700 from a local well known company for Rheem equipment (2-1/2 ton 10
SEER
AC and an 80% dual stage, variable speed 75,000 BTU (I think) furnace for
a
1750 sq ft home). It took two guys a good 7 hours to do the work. We're
in
upstate NY.

A second quote from another local company that's well known was anywhere
from $4700 to $6500 for Carrier equipment - depending on the efficiency
ratings.

A co-worker's husband does commercial HVAC for a school district and does
installs on the side. He quoted me for $3700 for a similar Rheem
installation.

A neighbor across the street does HVAC for a living - saw the vans parked
out front and later on out of curiosity asked me how much we paid - and
said
he would have come under the quote from my co-worker's husband.

I don't have buyer's remorse - I was ready to go with the co-worker's
husband, but my father-in-law is also our State Farm agent and he had
insurance concerns and all that good stuff since the co-worker's husband
wasn't bonded/insured/licensed to do the work independently. My wife
didn't
doubt the quality of his work or if he would stand behind it - her concern
was if the installation was faulty she wanted deeper pockets to go after
if
something went horribly wrong. Also would he stand behind his work at 2am
in January?

I didn't bother asking the neighbor for a quote first because of something
went wrong with the install or if I went with someone else - I wouldn't
want
problems with him down the road. As a rule I don't do business with
friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, etc... - would rather deal with a
person I'll likely never see again - not mix business with pleasure - and
deal with someone who has deeper pockets should something go wrong and we
have to go into litigation.

I think what we paid was probably in the mid-range of what I could have
shelled out. For our house, a higher efficiency system would unlikely pay
for itself over what we had installed.

Did I get ripped - or was the $4700 I paid on par?

There are way too many variables here to say if you really paid too
much. For example, was there any duct work involved and if so how
much? Is it in a basement, crawl space, or attic? It shouldn't be a
suprize to you if they charge more to put it in a crawl space or attic!
We also don't know how reputable the company is and if they did
quality work and set it up properly. 10 SEER sounds low, but since your
in upstate NY I doubt that matters much since you won't be using A/C a
lot.

"Les Wilson" wrote in message
...
We recently had a new gas furnace and central AC installed. Paid about
$4700 from a local well known company for Rheem equipment (2-1/2 ton 10
SEER
AC and an 80% dual stage, variable speed 75,000 BTU (I think) furnace for
a
1750 sq ft home). It took two guys a good 7 hours to do the work. We're
in
upstate NY.

A second quote from another local company that's well known was anywhere
from $4700 to $6500 for Carrier equipment - depending on the efficiency
ratings.

A co-worker's husband does commercial HVAC for a school district and does
installs on the side. He quoted me for $3700 for a similar Rheem
installation.

A neighbor across the street does HVAC for a living - saw the vans parked
out front and later on out of curiosity asked me how much we paid - and
said
he would have come under the quote from my co-worker's husband.

I don't have buyer's remorse - I was ready to go with the co-worker's
husband, but my father-in-law is also our State Farm agent and he had
insurance concerns and all that good stuff since the co-worker's husband
wasn't bonded/insured/licensed to do the work independently. My wife
didn't
doubt the quality of his work or if he would stand behind it - her concern
was if the installation was faulty she wanted deeper pockets to go after
if
something went horribly wrong. Also would he stand behind his work at 2am
in January?

I didn't bother asking the neighbor for a quote first because of something
went wrong with the install or if I went with someone else - I wouldn't
want
problems with him down the road. As a rule I don't do business with
friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, etc... - would rather deal with a
person I'll likely never see again - not mix business with pleasure - and
deal with someone who has deeper pockets should something go wrong and we
have to go into litigation.

I think what we paid was probably in the mid-range of what I could have
shelled out. For our house, a higher efficiency system would unlikely pay
for itself over what we had installed.

Did I get ripped - or was the $4700 I paid on par?



Sir, I believe I would have to recommend that you seek additional training.

I see.

To answer the first question yes, they did do the calculations.

No new duct work - all existing (house is only 22 yrs old) and was done down
in the basement.

It rarely gets above 90 degrees here in the peak of summer and the humidity
level is usually comfortable - so there wasn't a need for a high SEER AC
unit. Seeing that the central AC was a new addition (we didn't have it
before), 10 SEER is better than the no SEER that we had!!

wrote in message
oups.com...
There are way too many variables here to say if you really paid too
much. For example, was there any duct work involved and if so how
much? Is it in a basement, crawl space, or attic? It shouldn't be a
suprize to you if they charge more to put it in a crawl space or attic!
We also don't know how reputable the company is and if they did
quality work and set it up properly. 10 SEER sounds low, but since your
in upstate NY I doubt that matters much since you won't be using A/C a
lot.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:12:03 GMT, "Les Wilson"
wrote:


I didn't bother asking the neighbor for a quote first because of something
went wrong with the install or if I went with someone else - I wouldn't want
problems with him down the road. As a rule I don't do business with
friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, etc... - would rather deal with a
person I'll likely never see again - not mix business with pleasure - and
deal with someone who has deeper pockets should something go wrong and we
have to go into litigation.


I'm not in that business but after hanging out in alt.home.repair for
many years it seems like what you paid is in the normal range for what
people pay for these things. Location has a big effect on the
pricing as well.

I agree with your thought on the neighbor and the other guy. I would
rather pay a little more any day of the week to have ti done right and
not have to worry aobut the "what-ifs" that go along with it. Sounds
like you found a good company to deal with and paid a fair price so I
sure wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

Steve B.

"Les Wilson" wrote:

A co-worker's husband does commercial HVAC for a school district and does
installs on the side. He quoted me for $3700 for a similar Rheem
installation.


Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Jabs

Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Nah - no stolen equipment or parts... he's an honest guy. Everything would
have been bought new from a local wholesaler on my credit card and paid cash
for labor.

But we didn't go that route - so it's a moot point.

I agree with your thought on the neighbor and the other guy. I would
rather pay a little more any day of the week to have ti done right and
not have to worry aobut the "what-ifs" that go along with it. Sounds
like you found a good company to deal with and paid a fair price so I
sure wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

And that's what it pretty much came down to.

"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Jabs

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.

In article .com,
wrote:

"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.

These jobs require some specialized tools and equipment. Who
owns those tools? If he uses his work tools on the side, then
that is equivalent to theft. His company fronts all the money,
but the worker is putting wear and tear doing under the table
jobs. And how about the truck that transported those tools?
Who owned the truck? And whose contractor license was being
used? Most likely, you would have ended up with an illegal
furnace that couldn't pass inspection. And who paid for
stuff like worker's comp insurance? You did send in a
check, didn't you? If not, then you took a huge risk of the
furnace guy getting cut on sheet metal and being disabled.
Plus you broke the law. Were you planning to send a 1099 for
the work, or were you going to commit tax fraud along the
way, too? And was the worker in the union? What kind of
union guy does scab work on the side. Finally, what happens
if the job went bad after the fact? Who is there to stand
bye and warranty the work? Or fix the defects? Or do your
emergency service call at midnight when it is 40 below? Or
to accept the blame when your house burns own, and your own
insurance refuses to pay because you had unlicensed work
done with no building permit or inspection?

Every part of this deal stinks, and has huge cost risks for
very little monetary gain. Don't fall into that trap.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Jabs

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.


But it was morally right.....

If thats the case, you didnt pay more than $400 right?
At least....I hope not...

"John A. Weeks III" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:

"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.

These jobs require some specialized tools and equipment. Who
owns those tools? If he uses his work tools on the side, then
that is equivalent to theft. His company fronts all the money,
but the worker is putting wear and tear doing under the table
jobs. And how about the truck that transported those tools?
Who owned the truck? And whose contractor license was being
used? Most likely, you would have ended up with an illegal
furnace that couldn't pass inspection. And who paid for
stuff like worker's comp insurance? You did send in a
check, didn't you? If not, then you took a huge risk of the
furnace guy getting cut on sheet metal and being disabled.
Plus you broke the law. Were you planning to send a 1099 for
the work, or were you going to commit tax fraud along the
way, too? And was the worker in the union? What kind of
union guy does scab work on the side. Finally, what happens
if the job went bad after the fact? Who is there to stand
bye and warranty the work? Or fix the defects? Or do your
emergency service call at midnight when it is 40 below? Or
to accept the blame when your house burns own, and your own
insurance refuses to pay because you had unlicensed work
done with no building permit or inspection?

Every part of this deal stinks, and has huge cost risks for
very little monetary gain. Don't fall into that trap.

-john-



No no...allow them to allow unlicenced, untrained guys that think charging a
unit consists of slapping a manifold on it and allowing the suction side to
read 59psi on a 100F day..thats good for those of us that know better, and
know how to charge for our time, training, tools and such.


--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

"These jobs require some specialized tools and equipment. Who
owns those tools? If he uses his work tools on the side, then
that is equivalent to theft. His company fronts all the money,
but the worker is putting wear and tear doing under the table
jobs. And how about the truck that transported those tools?
Who owned the truck? "

"Plus you broke the law. Were you planning to send a 1099 for
the work, or were you going to commit tax fraud along the
way, too? "

Seems you a know a lot about situations you weren't even involved in.
You must be clairvoyant. Otherwise how do you know who's tools or
vehicle someone uses? In the case of the guy that did my work, he
came in his own vehicle, not one supplied by his employer. And since
most of his work is done in a plant, I think it would be pretty obvious
if he was walking out of the place with the employer's tools.

As for the tax issue, that's just plain silly. I hired a contractor.
It's no different than hiring a computer consultant to come straighten
out your PC for a day. Think you need to file tax forms for that,
cause you paid him? Thankfully, it hasn't got that crazy in the US
yet. The fact that a guy chooses to do part time work as well as work
full time somewhere else doesn't make him a dishonest tax cheat.

"And was the worker in the union? "

Ahh, now I see where you're true concern is. What a joke!

wrote in message
oups.com...
"These jobs require some specialized tools and equipment. Who
owns those tools? If he uses his work tools on the side, then
that is equivalent to theft. His company fronts all the money,
but the worker is putting wear and tear doing under the table
jobs. And how about the truck that transported those tools?
Who owned the truck? "

"Plus you broke the law. Were you planning to send a 1099 for
the work, or were you going to commit tax fraud along the
way, too? "

Seems you a know a lot about situations you weren't even involved in.
You must be clairvoyant. Otherwise how do you know who's tools or
vehicle someone uses?


How did you know?

In the case of the guy that did my work, he
came in his own vehicle, not one supplied by his employer.

So?

And since
most of his work is done in a plant, I think it would be pretty obvious
if he was walking out of the place with the employer's tools.

Not really.


As for the tax issue, that's just plain silly. I hired a contractor.
It's no different than hiring a computer consultant to come straighten
out your PC for a day. Think you need to file tax forms for that,
cause you paid him? Thankfully, it hasn't got that crazy in the US
yet. The fact that a guy chooses to do part time work as well as work
full time somewhere else doesn't make him a dishonest tax cheat.

Since you hired a hack...its obvious that he isnt going to claim your job on
his taxes, but boy...what if he did...
I love it when I send subs 1099s and they freak out....tough ****...I got
mine, you got yours and the governt gets theirs.


"And was the worker in the union? "

Ahh, now I see where you're true concern is. What a joke!

No..you dont.
Im anti union....but Im not the poster you are replying to...however, it
matters none if hes in the union or not, but since I posted it point blank
first...again...you got no sense of morals there do ya pal?

I REALLY hope all you had to do was pay for the parts, since its obvious you
dont have a clue if you got shafted or not.

"Jabs" wrote in message
...
"Les Wilson" wrote:

A co-worker's husband does commercial HVAC for a school district and does
installs on the side. He quoted me for $3700 for a similar Rheem
installation.


Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all, I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper. Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is
another.

Jabs


No ****. Around here, that is the job of the school's sports department and
the superintendent.

Welllllllll, it actually was illegal. Was there a permit pulled. Did you
pay tax on the work, was the technician definitely refrigerant certified,
did you cover his workmans comp and liability insurance while you were
subcontracting his services, did he use his own torch, recovery machine,
evacuation pump, solder, braze rod, nitrogen, nitrogen regulator,
refrigerant, or did he steal any of these from his employer? Did he
reimburse the employer for the use of this equipment. I am gonna stop now,
but I think you get the idea. It is easy to come up with about a dozen more
ways it was immoral, or illegal. If he was some hack with his own tools and
machinery giving you a low ball bid it would be different. but if he is
employed by someone else it is most likely against company policy, immoral,
or illegal.

--
Bob Pietrangelo


www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist




wrote in message
oups.com...
"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Jabs

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.

"Les Wilson" wrote in
message
...
No new duct work - all existing (house is only 22
yrs old) and was done down
in the basement.
Seeing that the central AC was a new addition (we
didn't have it
before), 10 SEER is better than the no SEER that
we had!!


These statements disturb me about yoour installer.
No previous A/C and you didn't need at least a
couple of returns? I guess you won't notice you
need them if you don't use the A/C.

No... the existing ductwork has cold-air returns and all that good stuff.
What I was saying is that we never had central AC up until now. Everything
checks out - they did a good install (I kept an eye on them - had um
"projects" to do in the basement that day while they were working). :-)

These statements disturb me about yoour installer.
No previous A/C and you didn't need at least a
couple of returns? I guess you won't notice you
need them if you don't use the A/C.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"Les Wilson" wrote in
message
...
No new duct work - all existing (house is only 22
yrs old) and was done down
in the basement.
Seeing that the central AC was a new addition (we
didn't have it
before), 10 SEER is better than the no SEER that
we had!!


These statements disturb me about yoour installer.
No previous A/C and you didn't need at least a
couple of returns? I guess you won't notice you
need them if you don't use the A/C.

Just where in the article you left in this post does it state that he didn't
need returns?

It states that he is getting a 10 SEER unit, which the payback would depend
on a few factors. Like climate, usage, and utility rates!

"Bob Pietrangelo" wrote in message
...
Welllllllll, it actually was illegal. Was there a permit pulled.


Does his location REQUIRE one to be pulled?

Did you
pay tax on the work,

You don't pay tax on Labor!

was the technician definitely refrigerant certified,
did you cover his workmans comp and liability insurance while you were
subcontracting his services, did he use his own torch, recovery machine,
evacuation pump, solder, braze rod, nitrogen, nitrogen regulator,
refrigerant, or did he steal any of these from his employer? Did he
reimburse the employer for the use of this equipment. I am gonna stop
now,
but I think you get the idea. It is easy to come up with about a dozen
more
ways it was immoral, or illegal. If he was some hack with his own tools
and
machinery giving you a low ball bid it would be different.


Agreed.


but if he is
employed by someone else it is most likely against company policy,
immoral,
or illegal.

--
Bob Pietrangelo


www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist




wrote in message
oups.com...
"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Jabs

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.

"John A. Weeks III" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:

"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.

These jobs require some specialized tools and equipment. Who
owns those tools? If he uses his work tools on the side, then
that is equivalent to theft. His company fronts all the money,
but the worker is putting wear and tear doing under the table
jobs. And how about the truck that transported those tools?
Who owned the truck? And whose contractor license was being
used?


Is it required in his particular state?


Most likely, you would have ended up with an illegal
furnace that couldn't pass inspection.


Does his state require inspection?

And who paid for
stuff like worker's comp insurance? You did send in a
check, didn't you? If not, then you took a huge risk of the
furnace guy getting cut on sheet metal and being disabled.
Plus you broke the law. Were you planning to send a 1099 for
the work,


A 1099 for $400?


or were you going to commit tax fraud along the
way, too? And was the worker in the union? What kind of
union guy does scab work on the side. Finally, what happens
if the job went bad after the fact? Who is there to stand
bye and warranty the work? Or fix the defects? Or do your
emergency service call at midnight when it is 40 below? Or
to accept the blame when your house burns own, and your own
insurance refuses to pay because you had unlicensed work
done with no building permit or inspection?


Does his state require either a permit or inspection?


Every part of this deal stinks, and has huge cost risks for
very little monetary gain. Don't fall into that trap.

-john-


Not saying I agree with hack work, just stating that their are different
requirements for different locals.


================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

In article ,
"tech" tech @ alt.hvac wrote:

A 1099 for $400?

The thread was about a furnace that was around $4000.
You gave an example, I gave a counter example. The
fact remains that they guy was working on a 1099 basis.
If you don't send a 1099 when required, the law has been
broken. If you don't think the guy was on 1099, then
maybe you hired him as a domestic employee, in which
case, did you send the social security withholding for
him? Its one or the other, there is no "none of the
above" when it comes to the IRS.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

"Since you hired a hack...its obvious that he isnt going to claim your
job on
his taxes, but boy...what if he did...
I love it when I send subs 1099s and they freak out....tough ****...I
got
mine, you got yours and the governt gets theirs. "

But boy what if did? What the hell are you talking about? Like if he
pays taxes on it then the IRS is gonna come after me? Whether someone
who did a job for me pays his taxes or not is his problem, not mine.
Your ignorance is unbounded. Sure you have to give subs a 1099. You
know why? Because you are contracting the subs in the course of your
business. Maybe you should read the instructions for form 1099
sometime:

"Trade of business reporting only. Report on Form 1099-Misc only when
payments are made in the course of trade or business. Personal
payments are not reportable"

Clearly homeowners are not required to file a 1099 when they get
someone to do a repair. Anybody else on this thread ever file one for
a repair job they had done, regardless of who does it? Of course not,
cause it's improper and just plain silly.

As are the rest of your arguments. Like asking me if I know where a
repairman's tools came from. I don't know or check where anyone's
tools came from. You're the one claiming they must be taken from work.
Maybe that's what you do, so you expect it.

"tech" tech @ alt.hvac wrote:


It states that he is getting a 10 SEER unit, which the payback would depend
on a few factors. Like climate, usage, and utility rates!

for some, payback isnt an issue. its a luxury item like a
hot tub i think my next luxury item will be one of these
http://tinyurl.com/afjt7

i do advocate getting the highest seer/eer system a person
can afford

wrote in message
...
for some, payback isnt an issue. its a luxury item like a
hot tub i think my next luxury item will be one of these
http://tinyurl.com/afjt7

Can I suggest one of the top two?

Only because the others are more expensive and don't include the nice lady!
:-)

"John A. Weeks III" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"tech" tech @ alt.hvac wrote:

A 1099 for $400?

The thread was about a furnace that was around $4000.

Ooops, I was thinking about another site where this guy only paid $400! (my
bad) :-(

If you don't send a 1099 when required, the law has been
broken. If you don't think the guy was on 1099, then
maybe you hired him as a domestic employee, in which
case, did you send the social security withholding for
him? Its one or the other, there is no "none of the
above" when it comes to the IRS.

John,

1099's are required when a business deducts the monies paid as an operating
expense. That's why Steve sends 1099's out to his subs, as he should.

A private individual cannot deduct the money he paid a contractor as a
expense, and he already paid the tax when he earned the money in the first
place. In the eyes of the IRS, it is the person who received the money that
is responsible for reporting that income.

Domestic employees are a whole other issue, and if you ever get into the
extremely complex but vague IRS definitions of what constitutes an employee
vs. a contractor, you'd probably get a headache (as I have).

As a commercial electrical contractor, I actually allow my individually
licensed employees to use company equipment to do small jobs for neighbors,
family members and friends. Conversely, my employees donate a lot of time
assisting me in community projects and the like... so I think it works out.

Don't jump on the guy without knowing the whole story here. While I don't
approve of taking work from other tradesmen so my people can get rich on the
side, helping your neighbor, family or the community does have its benefits.

Jake

"John,

1099's are required when a business deducts the monies paid as an
operating
expense. That's why Steve sends 1099's out to his subs, as he should.
A private individual cannot deduct the money he paid a contractor as a
expense, and he already paid the tax when he earned the money in the
first
place. In the eyes of the IRS, it is the person who received the money
that
is responsible for reporting that income. "

Exactly. Good to see someone else understands the issue and that
homeowners don't need to supply 1099 regardless of who fixes a furnace.
This Steve character doesn't know what he's talking about. I can
only imagine the BS he feeds customers.

Welllllllll, it actually was illegal. Was there a permit pulled.

Since when is a permit required to change an A/C compressor. That's
the example I gave that got this guy Steve all in a huff. It might be
in some whacko area, but for most area, it's not required.

Did you
pay tax on the work,

Yes, I paid tax

was the technician definitely refrigerant certified,

Yes he was, as that is his main career at a large industrial opeartion
that has enough A/C to require a guy on site.. Now tell me, how many
of residential customers that call in any A/C guy ask to see his
certification? So why jump on this issue?


did you cover his workmans comp and liability insurance while you were
subcontracting his services,

get this straight, I didn't "subcontract" anything. I'm not in a
business, just a private homeowner

did he use his own torch, recovery machine,
evacuation pump, solder, braze rod, nitrogen, nitrogen regulator,
refrigerant, or did he steal any of these from his employer? Did he
reimburse the employer for the use of this equipment.

As far as I know, he used his own eqpt. Does any homeowner check where
your eqpt came from? I can just see this "Uh, Mr. repairman, please
show me all your receipts to show where your tools came from. Geez,
get real.


I am gonna stop now,
but I think you get the idea. It is easy to come up with about a dozen
more
ways it was immoral, or illegal. If he was some hack with his own
tools and
machinery giving you a low ball bid it would be different. but if he
is
employed by someone else it is most likely against company policy,
immoral,
or illegal.

You should stop now. Because you don't know what you're talking about.
I could just as easily accuse any contractor of all kinds of things,
like screwing customers, doing unneccary work. But on the basis of all
the crap you've come up with, everyone is a crook because one thing or
another "might" not be proper, without any knowledge or proof that it
is. There are lots of guys that moonlight, run their own business on
the side and work for an employer. And as I have pointed out
repeatidly, he's not doing work that is in confict with his employer
because the employer is an A/C end user, not a contractor that
services/installs. Got it now? Or should we have a remedial class for
you guys on why 1099's aren't involved here either?

wrote in message
ups.com...
Welllllllll, it actually was illegal. Was there a permit pulled.

Since when is a permit required to change an A/C compressor. That's
the example I gave that got this guy Steve all in a huff. It might be
in some whacko area, but for most area, it's not required.

Did you
pay tax on the work,

Yes, I paid tax

was the technician definitely refrigerant certified,

Yes he was, as that is his main career at a large industrial opeartion
that has enough A/C to require a guy on site.. Now tell me, how many
of residential customers that call in any A/C guy ask to see his
certification? So why jump on this issue?


did you cover his workmans comp and liability insurance while you were
subcontracting his services,

get this straight, I didn't "subcontract" anything. I'm not in a
business, just a private homeowner

did he use his own torch, recovery machine,
evacuation pump, solder, braze rod, nitrogen, nitrogen regulator,
refrigerant, or did he steal any of these from his employer? Did he
reimburse the employer for the use of this equipment.

As far as I know, he used his own eqpt. Does any homeowner check where
your eqpt came from? I can just see this "Uh, Mr. repairman, please
show me all your receipts to show where your tools came from. Geez,
get real.


I am gonna stop now,
but I think you get the idea. It is easy to come up with about a dozen
more
ways it was immoral, or illegal. If he was some hack with his own
tools and
machinery giving you a low ball bid it would be different. but if he
is
employed by someone else it is most likely against company policy,
immoral,
or illegal.

You should stop now. Because you don't know what you're talking about.
I could just as easily accuse any contractor of all kinds of things,
like screwing customers, doing unneccary work. But on the basis of all
the crap you've come up with, everyone is a crook because one thing or
another "might" not be proper, without any knowledge or proof that it
is. There are lots of guys that moonlight, run their own business on
the side and work for an employer. And as I have pointed out
repeatidly, he's not doing work that is in confict with his employer
because the employer is an A/C end user, not a contractor that
services/installs. Got it now? Or should we have a remedial class for
you guys on why 1099's aren't involved here either?


http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:24:16 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"Jabs" wrote in message
. ..
"Les Wilson" wrote:

A co-worker's husband does commercial HVAC for a school district and does
installs on the side. He quoted me for $3700 for a similar Rheem
installation.


Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all, I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper. Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is
another.

Jabs


No ****. Around here, that is the job of the school's sports department and
the superintendent.

In this nation, it is the job of the service industry - those with
yellow page ads.

We've seen them on prime time news shows stealing from customers by
charging for services and parts that were not defective. I do blieve
that one of the guys was honest though but the vast majority were
crooks.

I'd recommend the guy doing it on the side. He probably hasn't
learned how to steal like the pros yet.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Welllllllll, it actually was illegal. Was there a permit pulled.

Since when is a permit required to change an A/C compressor. That's
the example I gave that got this guy Steve all in a huff. It might be
in some whacko area, but for most area, it's not required.

Im not in a huff....damn...

In some areas, yes..a permit is required to put a compressor in...

If you people understood the true purpose behind inspections you would not
be bitching about it.


Did you
pay tax on the work,

Yes, I paid tax

was the technician definitely refrigerant certified,

Yes he was, as that is his main career at a large industrial opeartion
that has enough A/C to require a guy on site.. Now tell me, how many
of residential customers that call in any A/C guy ask to see his
certification? So why jump on this issue?

Because we are rwquired by law to carry our card, and you would be amazed at
the smarter homeowners that DO ask.
We have gone to a ID tag now that has the picture ID on the front, and the
EPA card on the back.



did you cover his workmans comp and liability insurance while you were
subcontracting his services,

get this straight, I didn't "subcontract" anything. I'm not in a
business, just a private homeowner


Then you did indeed subcontract the repair...

did he use his own torch, recovery machine,
evacuation pump, solder, braze rod, nitrogen, nitrogen regulator,
refrigerant, or did he steal any of these from his employer? Did he
reimburse the employer for the use of this equipment.

As far as I know, he used his own eqpt. Does any homeowner check where
your eqpt came from? I can just see this "Uh, Mr. repairman, please
show me all your receipts to show where your tools came from. Geez,
get real.


We are getting real.

See...if one of my guys ASKED if he could use my supplied equipment to help
out a friend of his, the answer would be yes, but if I catch him using my
equipment to install a compressor for someone, he not only gets fired, but
he is charged for the time he used our equipment.



I am gonna stop now,
but I think you get the idea. It is easy to come up with about a dozen
more
ways it was immoral, or illegal. If he was some hack with his own
tools and
machinery giving you a low ball bid it would be different. but if he
is
employed by someone else it is most likely against company policy,
immoral,
or illegal.

You should stop now. Because you don't know what you're talking about.
I could just as easily accuse any contractor of all kinds of things,
like screwing customers, doing unneccary work. But on the basis of all
the crap you've come up with, everyone is a crook because one thing or
another "might" not be proper, without any knowledge or proof that it
is. There are lots of guys that moonlight, run their own business on
the side and work for an employer. And as I have pointed out
repeatidly, he's not doing work that is in confict with his employer
because the employer is an A/C end user, not a contractor that
services/installs. Got it now? Or should we have a remedial class for
you guys on why 1099's aren't involved here either?


If hes moonlighting, and from what you say, he is....then perhaps his boss
might have a problem with it.
You claim we are assuming alot....but you are as well.

I havent seen your answer on what you paid yet...you got a compressor put
in...was it more than $400 by your hack?

BTW....in areas that require a licence, that licence that we are talking
about isnt an EPA card, its a state issued card, and in many areas, it is
required for repairs as well.
What will you do if in 3 months that compressor fails again, and you cant
show a licenced company put it in? How will you get warranty service then?
Lie about it?

If you would stop assuming so much, and READ these posts, you would see that
there is a lesson here, even if its not what you want to hear.

wrote in message
oups.com...
"John,

1099's are required when a business deducts the monies paid as an
operating
expense. That's why Steve sends 1099's out to his subs, as he should.
A private individual cannot deduct the money he paid a contractor as a
expense, and he already paid the tax when he earned the money in the
first
place. In the eyes of the IRS, it is the person who received the money
that
is responsible for reporting that income. "

Exactly. Good to see someone else understands the issue and that
homeowners don't need to supply 1099 regardless of who fixes a furnace.
This Steve character doesn't know what he's talking about. I can
only imagine the BS he feeds customers.


Hummmm....man...you dont know what you are talking about.

But its ok...you dont know why we are thinking you are clueless either.

BTW...soon as I get a copy from the local TV station, you can get a copy for
free of the piece we did that PROTECTS homeowners from hacks, and immoral AC
contractors. Its like a 20-20 piece...shows how you can get ripped off and
not know it,
There is no BS fed to a customer you ****. Anything, and EVERYTHING can be
shown to them, and there isn't this up sell BS, or selling of parts they
don't need.
When you know something about the company....then you can whine, but right
now, you are just trying very unsuccessfully to try to **** me off...and its
not working.
Actually, if you would learn how to read, you would see that everyone here
was more worried about if you got someone that didn't rip you off..but..you
are so hell bent on defending your position that you didn't do anything
wrong....its amazing.
And yes...IF you paid more than $XXXX for your repair, and you hired out a
sub, since you would be acting as your own contractor in this area, you
would be required to send a 1099...but you know how each and every states
laws are, what the technical issues are, and how you can deduct what you
can...but then, that's why I don't do MY taxes and have an accountant on
hand for it. I don't claim to know a damn thing about anything..but you wont
find a more honest and that means honest to the point you might not like it
person around here.
Its your unit...if you are happy that you lied and cheated to get what you
wanted done, that's great, but since you had a hack do the work, I really
honestly sincerely hope you didn't pay more than $400 for it.
IF you did, I would go to the guy and ask for my money back, since without a
licence in some areas, if it dies tomorrow, you have zero warranty.

Its funny...you homeowners want truth and honesty, and when you get it point
blank and in your face its not what you wanted all of a sudden.
But you let some hack come in, snow you, tell you what you want to hear, get
to your pocketbook, steal from you, and you THINK he did a good job, the
real guys are the crooks..the crooks are the guys that made ya feel good,
stole from you, and thats that.
Have it your way...
MY customers are smarter than that....
And no...we DONT take every job that comes down the line....some we tell to
get someone else...thats one advantage of being in this industry...if a
customer is not willing to listen, we can just pack up, and leave....and NOT
charge for a damn thing.
But...you havent a clue why....$400 man..I really hope you didnt pay more
than that...
Unlicenced, working on the side, stealing his employers
tools...actually...should be less than that since hes not out a damn
thing...bet the compressor was stolen as well...Stolen you say?
Yup...charged to his boss's company, that end user of AC you keep stating,
and then, slipped out the back, onto his Pinto wagon, and installed at your
home.
I would ask for reciepts as well...

"If you would stop assuming so much, and READ these posts, you would
see that
there is a lesson here, even if its not what you want to hear. "

YOU are the one that's assuming everything, not me. You assume
everyone steals tools and it's up to a homeowner to know where they
came from. You assume a permit is required to replace a compressor.
Oh, but now you say it "may" be required. Please do tell. Do you get
a permit to replace a compressor? Almost everywhere, it's not
required, yet you assume it was in my case and that by not getting one
I broke the law.

You assume an employer has a problem with an employee having a business
on the side that doesn't conflict with the employer's business. You
assume there are tax reporting issues for a homeowner when they hire a
repariman and they have to file 1099's, when in fact as others have
pointed out, it's totally false.

I can just imagine the BS you feed customers to take advantage of them.
You sound like the shyster that comes in and sites all kinds of
non-existent BS, then tells the lady, sorry dear I'm gonna have to call
in some non-existent agency to red tag your furnace to scare her into
getting unneccesary work done.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:02:29 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"
wrote:

Every part of this deal stinks, and has huge cost risks for
very little monetary gain. Don't fall into that trap.

-john-

everybody wants to get an unfair advantage over everyone else John!
That's what Capitalism is all about...

Bill

Getting some one to do it "on the side" is poor practice as he is
probably not licensed or insured. Also he may be using school district
tools and materials, you could both be in trouble with the law if he
gets caught. If he wants to be a contractor he should do it full time
and not get subsidized by the school district.

The price seems fair, not having seen the job. The VS motor and two
stage makes, higher efficiency furnace would be better (90%). Since
you are in upstate NY, heating efficiency will be more important than
cooling efficiency, but I would have gone for 11 or 12 SEER anyway.

Stretch

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:12:03 GMT, Les Wilson wrote:
We recently had a new gas furnace and central AC installed. Paid about
$4700 from a local well known company for Rheem equipment (2-1/2 ton 10 SEER
AC and an 80% dual stage, variable speed 75,000 BTU (I think) furnace for a
1750 sq ft home). It took two guys a good 7 hours to do the work. We're in
upstate NY.

A second quote from another local company that's well known was anywhere
from $4700 to $6500 for Carrier equipment - depending on the efficiency
ratings.

A co-worker's husband does commercial HVAC for a school district and does
installs on the side. He quoted me for $3700 for a similar Rheem
installation.

A neighbor across the street does HVAC for a living - saw the vans parked
out front and later on out of curiosity asked me how much we paid - and said
he would have come under the quote from my co-worker's husband.

I don't have buyer's remorse - I was ready to go with the co-worker's
husband, but my father-in-law is also our State Farm agent and he had
insurance concerns and all that good stuff since the co-worker's husband
wasn't bonded/insured/licensed to do the work independently. My wife didn't
doubt the quality of his work or if he would stand behind it - her concern
was if the installation was faulty she wanted deeper pockets to go after if
something went horribly wrong. Also would he stand behind his work at 2am
in January?


I'm also in Rochester, and got pretty much exactly the same equipment
installed three years ago, in a 50 year old house. Did the company happen
to have the initials I H A A C?

Anyway, we paid something around $3800 to remove the old furnance,
do a bit of duct work, and install new furnance and the outside A/C unit.
( There was no A/C in the house, before. ) We have a 1300 sq ft house. There
was one guy working most of the day, with a second one who came in
to help carry out the old, absolutely huge Perfection furnace that
was there before. Boy, am I glad I didn't have to help with THAT. ;-)

- Rich

"Les Wilson" wrote:

Nah - no stolen equipment or parts... he's an honest guy.


Les,
SURE...he is!

Jabs

Les,
I'm sure you got a great deal and made out very well. I'm even more sure
that you side-jobber made out even better. I have no doubts about that. I
just don't like it when our kids get ripped off so that someone else can get
a great deal. Especially if it's tax/education dollars that got ripped-off
through illegal use of school district materials *AND/OR" equipment & tools.

Jabs


wrote in message
oups.com...
"Les,
Being that the school district probably has the deepest pocket of them
all,
I'll bet the district attorney would like to know how he can do it
cheaper.
Stealing is one thing....but stealing from the children is another.

Jabs

Before you go getting all huffed up over nothing, it sounds like the
reason he can do it cheaper than a regular contractor is that he's
doing work on the side, with no overhead. That's exactly how I got a
compressor replaced. A friend of a friend did A/C work full time for a
local business. The business was an end user of A/C, much like the
school here, not a heating/cooling business. The guy did the work and
I got a great deal. Nothing illegal about it at all.