On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 01:33:48 -0500, Mike Duffy wrote:

My favorite 'nanny' warning from childhood was on a package of sodium
hypochlorite pool conditioner: 'Do not mix with brake fluid'.

Who would ever get the idea to make such a mixture otherwise?

PS: Make sure you are outside if you want to try this. It would also be a
good idea to put on safety goggles as well. And be patient. When the smoke
starts, don't attempt to speed things up by adding more of anything.

Here, in California, we are so inundated with such silly nanny warnings that
we become inured to them.

It's a big business just selling the signs, for heaven's sake!
https://www.google.com/search?q=cali...rning+stickers

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:51:07 -0600, amdx wrote:

I remove the labels on some 3.5 gallon food grade buckets by cutting
paper towel the size of the label, lay it over the label and then put
just enough Xylene on the paper towel to wet it. I wait 5 minutes and
the label will peel off whole with no problem. Sometimes I need to use
the paper towel to remove residual glue.
Before I found that, I could spend a hour scraping off the label. now
I can get 20 done in less than an hour.
Mikek

As Jeff said, we can't get Xylene in California.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:35:03 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Well, you could try using something that was actually formulated for
removing labels:
Ouch. Rather expensive at $25/quart.

Exactly.
1. Water, which is 1 cent a gallon, works fine to remove most paper labels
off of most grocery store jars (which is my application).

2. Gasoline, at $3 a gallon, works fine on most of the remaining underlying
goops. I use the gasoline outside, and I wash the jar of the gasoline, but
the stink still transfers into the house unless I air it outside for a day.

3. When the underlying goop is resistant to gasoline, usually acetone or MAF
cleaner does the trick.

That's my cheap, readily available 2-step (sometimes 3-step) process for
removing labels from food jars for further use of the jar.

MSDS shows interesting and noxious chemicals:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuUn_zu8l00x4xt9PxmxOv70k 17zHvu9lxtD7SSSSSS--
Ingredient C.A.S. No. % by Wt
Xylene 1330-20-7 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Hydrotreated Light Naphtha (Petroleum)
64742-49-0 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Ethylbenzene 100-41-4 7 - 13 Trade Secret *
Toluene 108-88-3 0.5 - 1.5 Trade Secret *
Benzene 71-43-2 0.1 Trade Secret *

Like you, I love the MSDS because they give you the list of noxious things
in the can (they don't need to list non-noxious stuff though).

This one looks suspiciously similar to gasoline, by the way, in that
gasoline contains the same stuff (almost certainly in different percentages
though).

For naphtha, use Coleman camp fuel. Xylene and toluene are no longer
available in California, so those won't work.

I definately tried Coleman Camp Fuel in the past, since I had about 4 cans
of the stuff. It didn't work anywhere nearly as well as gasoline did, and it
stunk too. It's almost certainly less flammable though.

I also tried charcoal lighter fluid, which was just as bad at removing the
goop as was the Coleman fuel.

So, whatever they put in those cans, is no good for the task of removing the
underlying goop under labels (once the label is removed by soaking in
water).

There are made for purpose label removers, all of which really smell
awful. Goop-Off, Un-Du, Turtle Wax T-529, Goo-Gone, etc.

Yup. The label removers are no better than gasoline, as far as I know, when
it comes to removing the underlying adhesive under most food-jar labels.

They're only better than gasoline in that they're not flammable, which is
why I use the gasoline outside currently.

Then, there are the home concoctions:
https://www.pinterest.com/explore/remove-sticky-labels/

Not one of those seems to use gasoline, even though it's clearly and
obviously a fantastic solvent (which I've used for years and which works
fine for removing the goop).

The main problem with gasoline is that it needs to be used outside.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:52:10 -0500, wrote:

d-limonene,

Fran, the retired chemist, will have to let us know *how* that d-limonene
works for removing the goop.

Remember, removing most labels is so easy to do with just plain old soaking
in water, that the problem isn't removing the label.

The problem is removing the underlying goop.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 08:30:51 -0500, Frank wrote:

+ He does not know that I am a retired chemist. I survived many fires
and explosions and release of toxic materials in the lab so I sorta know
what I am talking about. Then from the technical side, if the gasoline
is diluted the polar characteristics will change and it may not function
the same.

That's interesting that you're a retired chemist.
My chemistry training stopped after Organic Chemistry (Morrison and Boyd) in
college.

Water is polar.
But are you sure gasoline is polar?

There must be a good reason gasoline is the best solvent for removing label
goop, so, if you're saying the reason is its polarity, all we need to do is
find a solvent with similar polarity.

But I've never found a solvent better than gasoline for removing the
underlying goop (although no one solvent works at all times).

I'll google to see if gasoline is polar, but it may get complex because
there is no one "chemical" called "gasoline". It's a mix of alkanes,
alkenes, alkynes and aromatics (but I'll doublecheck since that's off the
cuff).

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:43:42 -0500, wrote:

But "real men" are not "totally" stupid.

Agreed.
We wear goggles (sometimes) when cutting wood.

But, do you read the warning on California hammers?
They suggest you wear goggles every time you hammer a nail.

Nothing wrong with goggles. I have a half dozen myself.
But every time you hammer a nail?

They mitigate danger where
it makes sense - and in your case it does.

I wear a helmet, boots, and gloves when I ride a motorcycle.
You don't need to tell me that riding a motorcycle is dangerous.

Tell me something I don't know.
Otherwise you're wasting everyone's time.

That was my only point in preventing people telling me that the otherwise
excellent solvent has deleterious properties (that everyone already knows).

I hope you haven't fathered
any kids yet - the world doesn't need any more Bannons with yout
cheap-assed attitude.

Grandkids. All Roman Catholic.
You're doomed.


Buy a commercial goo remover that is safe
(relatively) to use - and use it outside in fresh air - because they
ALL STINK.

1. Water works fine to remove most paper labels.
Water is much cheaper than anything else you can suggest for removing the
label.

2. Gasoline works fine to remove most goop under the labels.
The only problem with gasoline is that it (a) stinks and (b) is flammable.
Outside is no problem, which is how I do it currently.

But the goal is to dilute the gasoline 10:1 so that it can be stored and
used inside. The scientific trick is to find a good diluent that negates the
deleterious properties of the gasoline.

If that's too difficult a scientific problem for you, I understand.
Engineering a solution isn't always as simple as buying something off the
shelf.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 07:04:41 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

If you live near the border, go to Tijuana, go to a liquor store and buy
agua diente, It is pure (180 proof) ethanol. Fifty years ago it was $0.50
per liter, going to be more now.

California is a big state (which is why they get away with being whacko)
where I'm nowhere near the border. Too bad. That's a great price for 90%
alcohol and 10% water.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:57:56 -0500, wrote:

Gasoline does the same thing. Might take twice as long but you still
measure it in seconds and fractions there-of.

Yup. Every kid has melted a huge box of stryofoam peanuts into a cup of
gasoline to make what the kids call 'napalm' (at least we did in the Vietnam
war days when we were young kids).

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:39:11 -0500, bitrex wrote:

One time, not thinking what I was doing, I poured a little hardware
store acetone into a Styrofoam cup, and instantly ended up with a big
gloppy mess of acetone and melted Styrofoam on my lap.

Every kid I know of (including me) has made what we called "napalm" simply
by melting the Styrofoam peanuts into a cup of gasoline.

We made better jellied gasoline using dish detergent, but I think it's a
pretty common experience for kids world wide to melt styrofoam into
gasoline.

All kids made pipe bombs too, which were far more dangerous when you compare
it, just as we all mixed the pool chemicals that exploded in a gush. Most of
the time we were more cautious than we needed to be, especially when playing
with the M80's under the ice.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:03:06 -0500, wrote:

Naptha won't help the flammabilty/explosive danger.

Thanks for looking at the problem from a scientific standpoint.

The main issue is that gasoline is a *fantastic* readily available and cheap
(relatively) solvent for eliminating the goop under the labels (after the
label is removed by soaking in water); but gasoline (a) stinks, and (b) is
flammable.

So all we're trying to do is reduce those two deleterious qualities:
a. Lower the stink (or mask it with a better stink perhaps)
b. Lower the flammability issue (probably by lowering the quantity)

Looking at naphtha as the diluent and gasoline as the solvent, and assuming
something around a 1:10 ratio of diluent to solvent, the first thing I find
is that naphtha is, like gasoline, not a single chemical in and of itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_naphtha

Looking up whether naphtha is a good diluent for gasoline, people do it:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...8-naphtha.html

But the results were too complex for me to glean the gist of the results in
a single skim, so I'll move on to the next suggestion for the moment.

Butane is even worse.
I don't see butane readily available either.
It might be (e.g., lighter refills), but it seems too flammable for me to
consider as the diluent.

Methanol is corrosive, VERY flammable and poisonous (absorbs
through the skin too)

The problem, I think, with *any* alcohol, is that they're gonna dilute it
with water, and water isn't what we want to mix with the gasoline, so,
unless we can find reagent grade alcohols, I think alcohol that we do find
will have water in it.

Dichloromethane may be an alternative but it has serious health risks
as well

Is that a common household chemical?

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:16:28 -0500, JC wrote:

Well, I'm just really glad I don't live in Califailia. I do like my
solvents.

I am hoping that the solvent that we scientifically come up with is not only
readily available, but that it *lowers* the negative qualities of gasoline.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:37:20 -0500, wrote:

The only thing I know of that will "dilute" gasoline and make it
less flammable is Carbon Tet - which has serious safety issues itself
and has been illegal for years.

This is interesting, even though carbon tetrachloride is probably difficult
to get and hence isn't a standard household chemical.

You have a good point in that the goal of dilution is to reduce the
deleterious qualities of the gasoline, which, let's face it, works just fine
as a label goop remover.

The problem with the gasoline is obvious though, so that's what I'm trying
to reduce by diluting with some other common household chemical.

I was hoping that the dilution would reduce the negative complications of
gasoline.

From the scientific standpoint (which is really what I'm after), are you
saying that a 50:50 mixture of methanol and gasoline would be *more*
flammable than a 100% mixture of either one?

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:51:39 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Dedicated label remover is better than WD-40 and the orange smell is
quite nice.

https://youtu.be/b4Cu1tYpc64

No, he doesn't compare petrol to the others :-P

Thanks for that video.

The video underscores the fact that no one solvent works in all cases, so
all we really are looking for is a solvent that works most of the time.

The video also underscores the *confusion* that surrounds removing labels.

They tested against paper labels the following removers:
1. Maplin Label Remover
2. Zinsser Universal Degreaser & Cleaner
3. WD-40
4. Methylated spirits

The confusion is that the video highlights that there are two *separate*
problems, one of which I've solved long ago, but both of which they are
attacking.

1. Removing a (paper in this case) label
2. Removing the underlying goop

I only am attacking the underlying goop, since soaking removes paper labels
quite well already.

IMHO, when I'm looking for a cheap readily available household chemical to
remove the goop, I don't need to make the problem *harder* by also asking
that chemical to remove the (paper in this case) label, especially since
there is already a cheap readily available household solved (aka dihydrogen
oxide) which removes paper labels quite handily.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:38:22 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

I will reiterate my recommendation, use WD-40 for label removal.

I hear you on the miracle-in-a-can as I knew about it, and had tried it
years ago, and decided it was a myth. But I can try it again, especially if,
as you say, they supply a liquid version of this miracle in a can.

If the odor is too offensive for your manly
sensibilities, buy the product in liquid form.

I appreciate that advice since I didn't know they made a liquid form.
I have only used the spray, and found it to be substandard in every way for
"lubrication" and "protection" of metal-on-metal surfaces.

If you do not atomize it with a spray, the odor is far less
pervasive.

Thank you for that point, which I agree with you on, which is that for my
use, the miracle in a can will best be the liquid version.

With WD-40, apply a light layer to the label and just let it sit for a little while. Come back in 10 - 15
minutes and the adhesive will have dissolved and the label will slide off with virtually no work.

Interesting that you mention a "label".
I always remove the label first, generally by soaking in plain old water.
Once I have the label removed, that's where I need the solvent to remove the
goop.

If you need a powerful solvent that will dissolve almost anything else, buy a can of lacquer thinner (yes, it
is available in California) LT is unbelievable in it's utility.

I think I've tried it, but I see I don't have any on my shelves at the
moment, so, if California will allow me to buy it, I'll pick up some lacquer
thinner if it's still sold.

Use of and storage of gasoline and other highly carcinogenic chemicals mixtures inside the living area of a
residence is as inadvisable as smoking or leaving a loaded, unlocked firearm where might be accessible by a 5
year old child.

And wipe your shoes before you come in the house.
Otherwise, someone might slip on the mud.

Robert Bannon posted for all of us...


Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute gasoline?


AS a FF I was going to let this pass but I see from some of your replies are
less than "manly" as you put it.

Please let me know where you live, when you are going to do it and if there
are innocent victims in your abode. I will update the run card and CAD so
responders will not endanger themselves to recover your charred
unrecognizable remains.

--
Tekkie

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:29 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:38:22 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

I will reiterate my recommendation, use WD-40 for label removal.

I hear you on the miracle-in-a-can as I knew about it, and had tried it
years ago, and decided it was a myth. But I can try it again, especially if,
as you say, they supply a liquid version of this miracle in a can.

You can get a gallon of it for about $17 through Amazon. That should last you for years.


If the odor is too offensive for your manly
sensibilities, buy the product in liquid form.

I appreciate that advice since I didn't know they made a liquid form.
I have only used the spray, and found it to be substandard in every way for
"lubrication" and "protection" of metal-on-metal surfaces.

That is because it is a penetrating oil and water displacement agent. It was originally developed for
protecting the outer skin and the fuel tanks of the Atlas missile.


If you do not atomize it with a spray, the odor is far less
pervasive.

Thank you for that point, which I agree with you on, which is that for my
use, the miracle in a can will best be the liquid version.

With WD-40, apply a light layer to the label and just let it sit for a little while. Come back in 10 - 15
minutes and the adhesive will have dissolved and the label will slide off with virtually no work.

Interesting that you mention a "label".
I always remove the label first, generally by soaking in plain old water.
Once I have the label removed, that's where I need the solvent to remove the
goop.

If you need a powerful solvent that will dissolve almost anything else, buy a can of lacquer thinner (yes, it
is available in California) LT is unbelievable in it's utility.

I think I've tried it, but I see I don't have any on my shelves at the
moment, so, if California will allow me to buy it, I'll pick up some lacquer
thinner if it's still sold.

A gallon through Amazon should be less than $20. I really hate going to Home Depot. The gallons are a much
better deal than quarts.


Use of and storage of gasoline and other highly carcinogenic chemicals mixtures inside the living area of a
residence is as inadvisable as smoking or leaving a loaded, unlocked firearm where might be accessible by a 5
year old child.

And wipe your shoes before you come in the house.
Otherwise, someone might slip on the mud.

Good advice, wiping your shoes also helps keep unnecessary dirt out of the house. One of our critters is a
very sweet, personable and affectionate donkey. Every opportunity she gets to come in the house, she sneaks
in, she doesn't ever cause a problem, other than the dirt that comes in on her hooves.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:05:58 -0000 (UTC)
Robert Bannon wrote:


Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute
gasoline?

I use gasoline as a home goo-gone substitute for removing labels.
Most often I do it outside, because of the stink, but I want to keep
it inside in tiny amounts, diluted as much as possible.

I've already tried all the common home chemicals from alcohol to
acetone to lemon juice to engine degreaser to dish detergent to brake
cleaner to windex to automatic-transmission fluid and MAF cleaner,
all of which work sometimes but all of which fail often (either
because they melt the container or they don't dissolve the goo).

I've even tried common flavorings such as orange blossom extract, rose
water, pure lemon extract, coconut oil and walnut oil, which,
surprisingly, are totally useless (but they do smell the best!).

I've found, through decades of experience, that gasoline, which also
fails sometimes, works more often than any other household common
chemical.

But gasoline has all the problems that most of you will love to
"teach" me, but that's not the question (so please don't try to teach
me why gasoline vapors are flammable and why I should goo-be-gone
outdoors because I know that).

Also please don't try to teach me that there are commercial lemon-oil
solutions.

I just want to dilute the gasoline and I already know that even the
diluted gasoline vapors will be flammable. We take risks sometimes
when working around the house and not being a pussy about it all the
time.

So I plan to keep a small jar of gasoline properly labeled under the
kitchen sink (let's not go into the dangers of doing that, because
properly diluting it won't solve that danger for the most part).

Without being a pussy about the question, do you have any suggestion
that you think might work best to dilute the gasoline 10:1 (or even
100:1) so that I'm using the minimum effective amount of gasoline
indoors?

What can I 'cut' the gasoline with that will mix with the gas and
dilute it (maybe 10:1 or even maybe 100:1)?

Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute
gasoline?

Acorn Flour works best.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:57:44 -0800, Oren wrote:

For removing labels I was suggesting lighter fluid (NAPHTHA) to remove
labels. Not suggesting mixing it with gas. I removes labels, tar,
grease & oil stains. https://tinyurl.com/hpzopew

The problem isn't removing the label, but the goop under the label once the
label is removed.

The Naphtha probably works but does it work better than gasoline?
Dunno.

I'd need to find naphtha in the stores to test it out against gasoline
(which works just fine for removing most goop).

In the rare case that gasoline fails to remove the goop, acetone often works
(but acetone fails more than does gasoline).

I wasn't joking about peanut butter (smooth variety) either. It takes
longer so the oil soaks in and loosens the label. YMMV

I just use water to remove the label.
a. I fill the jar with water so it sinks
b. I drop it into a larger bucket of water

You can't beat water for being a readily available household chemical.
But water only removes the label.

My problem is removing the goop.
You can't beat gasoline for being a readily available household chemical for
removing the goop.

The only problem with the gasoline is it has to be used outdoors.
So that's why I'm trying to find how to make it so that it can be used
indoors.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:40:36 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute gasoline?


AS a FF I was going to let this pass but I see from some of your replies are
less than "manly" as you put it.

Please let me know where you live, when you are going to do it and if there
are innocent victims in your abode. I will update the run card and CAD so
responders will not endanger themselves to recover your charred
unrecognizable remains.

.... sometimes it isn't worth chewing through the restraints :-\

"Robert Bannon" wrote in message
news
Butane is even worse.
I don't see butane readily available either.
It might be (e.g., lighter refills), but it seems too flammable for me to
consider as the diluent.

Wouldn't work even if it weren't flammable since it is only a liquid when
under pressure.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:02:42 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

Wouldn't work even if it weren't flammable since it is only a liquid when
under pressure.

Good point. I didn't even think of that.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:57:44 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 02:02:46 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 17:15:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

Lighter fluid, NAPHTHA!

Did you try peanut butter on the labels?

Butane might cut gasoline, as you suggested.
Naptha is almost certain verboten in California.


For removing labels I was suggesting lighter fluid (NAPHTHA) to remove
labels. Not suggesting mixing it with gas. I removes labels, tar,
grease & oil stains. https://tinyurl.com/hpzopew


I wasn't joking about peanut butter (smooth variety) either. It takes
longer so the oil soaks in and loosens the label. YMMV

But I'm not sure.
It's got to be sold in order for me to use it though.

I don't see naptha at Home Depot for example.
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Paint-Pai...vZc5bmZ1z0t5hf
Forget the peanut butter. Peanut OIL is what does the job - the
"butter" is just a carrier

On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 7:06:00 PM UTC-5, Robert Bannon wrote:

I hereby nominate Robert Bannon for an anticipatory Darwin Award. Usually they are awarded posthumously, but he is such a "real man" that I thought he may wish to enjoy it in advance.

Real Men are responsible for themselves and others, and typically avoid all forms of ritual suicide, including the breathing of benzine-based fumes indoors. Can you say CARCINOGEN? For sure, you cannot spell it.

Sheesh!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:54:41 -0500, wrote:

Forget the peanut butter. Peanut OIL is what does the job - the
"butter" is just a carrier

But the "butter" holds the oil on :- )

....or try vegetable oil to soak the labels.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:35:03 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Well, you could try using something that was actually formulated for
removing labels:
Ouch. Rather expensive at $25/quart.

Exactly.
1. Water, which is 1 cent a gallon, works fine to remove most paper labels
off of most grocery store jars (which is my application).

2. Gasoline, at $3 a gallon, works fine on most of the remaining underlying
goops. I use the gasoline outside, and I wash the jar of the gasoline, but
the stink still transfers into the house unless I air it outside for a day.

3. When the underlying goop is resistant to gasoline, usually acetone or MAF
cleaner does the trick.

That's my cheap, readily available 2-step (sometimes 3-step) process for
removing labels from food jars for further use of the jar.

MSDS shows interesting and noxious chemicals:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuUn_zu8l00x4xt9PxmxOv70k 17zHvu9lxtD7SSSSSS--
Ingredient C.A.S. No. % by Wt
Xylene 1330-20-7 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Hydrotreated Light Naphtha (Petroleum)
64742-49-0 30 - 60 Trade Secret *
Ethylbenzene 100-41-4 7 - 13 Trade Secret *
Toluene 108-88-3 0.5 - 1.5 Trade Secret *
Benzene 71-43-2 0.1 Trade Secret *

Like you, I love the MSDS because they give you the list of noxious things
in the can (they don't need to list non-noxious stuff though).

This one looks suspiciously similar to gasoline, by the way, in that
gasoline contains the same stuff (almost certainly in different percentages
though).

For naphtha, use Coleman camp fuel. Xylene and toluene are no longer
available in California, so those won't work.

I definately tried Coleman Camp Fuel in the past, since I had about 4 cans
of the stuff. It didn't work anywhere nearly as well as gasoline did, and it
stunk too. It's almost certainly less flammable though.

I also tried charcoal lighter fluid, which was just as bad at removing the
goop as was the Coleman fuel.

Charcoal lighter fluid is usually undistinguishable from "varsol" ot
"mineral spirits".

Coleman fuel, or "white gas" has virtually the same flammability as
regular gasoline but burns cleaner and has an octane of about 50 - the
same as the old "straight run" gasoline from the '20s.

So, whatever they put in those cans, is no good for the task of removing the
underlying goop under labels (once the label is removed by soaking in
water).

There are made for purpose label removers, all of which really smell
awful. Goop-Off, Un-Du, Turtle Wax T-529, Goo-Gone, etc.

Yup. The label removers are no better than gasoline, as far as I know, when
it comes to removing the underlying adhesive under most food-jar labels.

They're only better than gasoline in that they're not flammable, which is
why I use the gasoline outside currently.

Then, there are the home concoctions:
https://www.pinterest.com/explore/remove-sticky-labels/

Not one of those seems to use gasoline, even though it's clearly and
obviously a fantastic solvent (which I've used for years and which works
fine for removing the goop).

The main problem with gasoline is that it needs to be used outside.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:21 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 08:30:51 -0500, Frank wrote:

+ He does not know that I am a retired chemist. I survived many fires
and explosions and release of toxic materials in the lab so I sorta know
what I am talking about. Then from the technical side, if the gasoline
is diluted the polar characteristics will change and it may not function
the same.

That's interesting that you're a retired chemist.
My chemistry training stopped after Organic Chemistry (Morrison and Boyd) in
college.

Water is polar.
But are you sure gasoline is polar?

There must be a good reason gasoline is the best solvent for removing label
goop, so, if you're saying the reason is its polarity, all we need to do is
find a solvent with similar polarity.

But I've never found a solvent better than gasoline for removing the
underlying goop (although no one solvent works at all times).

I'll google to see if gasoline is polar, but it may get complex because
there is no one "chemical" called "gasoline". It's a mix of alkanes,
alkenes, alkynes and aromatics (but I'll doublecheck since that's off the
cuff).
The reason one solvent doesn't work all the time is there are so
many "glues" used to attach labels.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:22 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:43:42 -0500, wrote:

But "real men" are not "totally" stupid.

Agreed.
We wear goggles (sometimes) when cutting wood.

But, do you read the warning on California hammers?
They suggest you wear goggles every time you hammer a nail.

Nothing wrong with goggles. I have a half dozen myself.
But every time you hammer a nail?


My perscription bifocal glasses are listed safety glasses - and
without them I'm not sure I'd hit the "right" nail . . .
They mitigate danger where
it makes sense - and in your case it does.

I wear a helmet, boots, and gloves when I ride a motorcycle.
You don't need to tell me that riding a motorcycle is dangerous.

Tell me something I don't know.
Otherwise you're wasting everyone's time.

That was my only point in preventing people telling me that the otherwise
excellent solvent has deleterious properties (that everyone already knows).

I hope you haven't fathered
any kids yet - the world doesn't need any more Bannons with yout
cheap-assed attitude.

Grandkids. All Roman Catholic.
You're doomed.


Buy a commercial goo remover that is safe
(relatively) to use - and use it outside in fresh air - because they
ALL STINK.

1. Water works fine to remove most paper labels.
Water is much cheaper than anything else you can suggest for removing the
label.

2. Gasoline works fine to remove most goop under the labels.
The only problem with gasoline is that it (a) stinks and (b) is flammable.
Outside is no problem, which is how I do it currently.

But the goal is to dilute the gasoline 10:1 so that it can be stored and
used inside. The scientific trick is to find a good diluent that negates the
deleterious properties of the gasoline.

If that's too difficult a scientific problem for you, I understand.
Engineering a solution isn't always as simple as buying something off the
shelf.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:26 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:03:06 -0500, wrote:

Naptha won't help the flammabilty/explosive danger.

Thanks for looking at the problem from a scientific standpoint.

The main issue is that gasoline is a *fantastic* readily available and cheap
(relatively) solvent for eliminating the goop under the labels (after the
label is removed by soaking in water); but gasoline (a) stinks, and (b) is
flammable.

So all we're trying to do is reduce those two deleterious qualities:
a. Lower the stink (or mask it with a better stink perhaps)
b. Lower the flammability issue (probably by lowering the quantity)

Looking at naphtha as the diluent and gasoline as the solvent, and assuming
something around a 1:10 ratio of diluent to solvent, the first thing I find
is that naphtha is, like gasoline, not a single chemical in and of itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_naphtha

Looking up whether naphtha is a good diluent for gasoline, people do it:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...8-naphtha.html

But the results were too complex for me to glean the gist of the results in
a single skim, so I'll move on to the next suggestion for the moment.

Butane is even worse.
I don't see butane readily available either.
It might be (e.g., lighter refills), but it seems too flammable for me to
consider as the diluent.

Methanol is corrosive, VERY flammable and poisonous (absorbs
through the skin too)

The problem, I think, with *any* alcohol, is that they're gonna dilute it
with water, and water isn't what we want to mix with the gasoline, so,
unless we can find reagent grade alcohols, I think alcohol that we do find
will have water in it.

Dichloromethane may be an alternative but it has serious health risks
as well

Is that a common household chemical?
Also known as Methylene Chloride it is the main component of many
paint strippers. It is not generally available for retail sale in it's
"raw" form.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:26 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:16:28 -0500, JC wrote:

Well, I'm just really glad I don't live in Califailia. I do like my
solvents.

I am hoping that the solvent that we scientifically come up with is not only
readily available, but that it *lowers* the negative qualities of gasoline.
There really isn't anything that will "dilute" gasoline that is not
either at least as flammable or at least as dangerous as gasoline
itself - particularly not that will not also destroy it's solvency.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:19:25 -0500, wrote:

There really isn't anything that will "dilute" gasoline that is not
either at least as flammable or at least as dangerous as gasoline
itself - particularly not that will not also destroy it's solvency.

Model T Fords would run on moonshine added to leaded gas :-)

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:27 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:37:20 -0500, wrote:

The only thing I know of that will "dilute" gasoline and make it
less flammable is Carbon Tet - which has serious safety issues itself
and has been illegal for years.

This is interesting, even though carbon tetrachloride is probably difficult
to get and hence isn't a standard household chemical.

You have a good point in that the goal of dilution is to reduce the
deleterious qualities of the gasoline, which, let's face it, works just fine
as a label goop remover.

The problem with the gasoline is obvious though, so that's what I'm trying
to reduce by diluting with some other common household chemical.

I was hoping that the dilution would reduce the negative complications of
gasoline.

From the scientific standpoint (which is really what I'm after), are you
saying that a 50:50 mixture of methanol and gasoline would be *more*
flammable than a 100% mixture of either one?
The big danger with methanol combustion is you can't see the light
blue flame in a well lighted room - or even a poorly lighted one..
Other than that it is actually inherently safer than gasoline - and
the mixture is more dangerous than straight methanol as far as fire is
concerned.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:29 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:38:22 +0000, Stormin' Norman wrote:

I will reiterate my recommendation, use WD-40 for label removal.

I hear you on the miracle-in-a-can as I knew about it, and had tried it
years ago, and decided it was a myth. But I can try it again, especially if,
as you say, they supply a liquid version of this miracle in a can.

If the odor is too offensive for your manly
sensibilities, buy the product in liquid form.

I appreciate that advice since I didn't know they made a liquid form.
I have only used the spray, and found it to be substandard in every way for
"lubrication" and "protection" of metal-on-metal surfaces.

If you do not atomize it with a spray, the odor is far less
pervasive.

Thank you for that point, which I agree with you on, which is that for my
use, the miracle in a can will best be the liquid version.

With WD-40, apply a light layer to the label and just let it sit for a little while. Come back in 10 - 15
minutes and the adhesive will have dissolved and the label will slide off with virtually no work.

Interesting that you mention a "label".
I always remove the label first, generally by soaking in plain old water.
Once I have the label removed, that's where I need the solvent to remove the
goop.

Perhaps the "single step" method using "miracle in a can" would be the
sinpler way????

If you need a powerful solvent that will dissolve almost anything else, buy a can of lacquer thinner (yes, it
is available in California) LT is unbelievable in it's utility.

I think I've tried it, but I see I don't have any on my shelves at the
moment, so, if California will allow me to buy it, I'll pick up some lacquer
thinner if it's still sold.

Use of and storage of gasoline and other highly carcinogenic chemicals mixtures inside the living area of a
residence is as inadvisable as smoking or leaving a loaded, unlocked firearm where might be accessible by a 5
year old child.

And wipe your shoes before you come in the house.
Otherwise, someone might slip on the mud.
Turn your boots over and shake them before you put them on to be sure
there is no mouse or scorpian in your boot (or shoe)

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:02:42 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote:


"Robert Bannon" wrote in message
news
Butane is even worse.
I don't see butane readily available either.
It might be (e.g., lighter refills), but it seems too flammable for me to
consider as the diluent.

Wouldn't work even if it weren't flammable since it is only a liquid when
under pressure.

Or below 31 degrees F at atmospheric pressure (sea level standard)

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:19:25 -0500, wrote:

There really isn't anything that will "dilute" gasoline that is not
either at least as flammable or at least as dangerous as gasoline
itself - particularly not that will not also destroy it's solvency.

Model T Fords would run on moonshine added to leaded gas :-)

I thought the leaded gas was added to the moonshine.

In article ,
Robert Bannon wrote:

Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute gasoline?

[snip]

Without being a pussy about the question, do you have any suggestion that
you think might work best to dilute the gasoline 10:1 (or even 100:1) so
that I'm using the minimum effective amount of gasoline indoors?

What can I 'cut' the gasoline with that will mix with the gas and dilute it
(maybe 10:1 or even maybe 100:1)?

Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute gasoline?

The thread has 84 responses, some of which ignore your question to
advise you on safety.

If you're going for cheaper, I think anything you can find to dilute the
gasoline will be nearly as costly as the gasoline.

I know you want to do the label removal in the house, but wouldn't it be
better to do this final step outside? Surely you can save up the jars
until there is a sunny, breezy day? Also, you'll keep gasoline from
going down the sink drain (you mentioned a sink in what I deleted).

If ethanol works, how about isopropyl alcohol, a near relative?

Use a single edge razor blade to get most of the goop off, then use the
gasoline. Do the jars in batches for efficiency.

charles, that's all I've got

Robert Bannon wrote:


Any suggestions of common household chemicals that can dilute gasoline?

I use gasoline as a home goo-gone substitute for removing labels.
Most often I do it outside, because of the stink, but I want to keep it
inside in tiny amounts, diluted as much as possible.


** The adhesives used on most labels soften with heat - so a hot air gun will allow you to peel or scrape it off easily. The label itself stops solvents from penetrating through to the adhesive.

Any residual can be cleaned up with mineral turps.

I find "Eucalyptus Oil" a good solvent too.


..... Phil

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:08:19 -0000 (UTC), Robert Bannon
wrote:

Yup. The label removers are no better than gasoline, as far as I know, when
it comes to removing the underlying adhesive under most food-jar labels.

They work fairly well for me. Getting the oily residue off of
absorbent materials is my main objects. Number 2 objection is the
smell.

I went by Scarborough (Ace) Hardware today. What they have on the
shelf a
Acetone
Denatured Alcohol
Lacquer Thinner
Paint Thinner
Turpentine
Mineral Spirits
Japan Dryer
Painters Solvent (replaces MEK, toluene, xylene, VM+P Naphtha).
That's it. All the good stuff is gone.

MSDS for Exxon regular gasoline:
http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/IntApps/psims/Download.aspx?ID=83534&docFormat=RTF
Looks like it contains all your favorite missing VOC's. According to
the MSDS, gasoline is a mix of butane, isobutane, pentane, and
isopentane. I'm surprised that the California Air Resources Board
hasn't banned gasoline.

So, by using gasoline for cleaning and label removal, you're dumping
VOCs into the atmosphere. If there was a reward, I would probably
turn you in for re-education and brain washing (using an eco friend
brain wash cleaner).


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:11:04 -0500, wrote:

The reason one solvent doesn't work all the time is there are so
many "glues" used to attach labels.

I understand.

You might not notice but I don't believe anyone who says any one solve works
all the time, because it's just not going to happen.

You'll notice that I take pains to say that the gasoline works "most" of the
time, and "more" so than the other solvents that I have tried (with acetone
coming in second to gasoline but a distant second at that).

Also, I didn't realize you guys actually put the solvent *on* the label,
which I never do.

I remove the labels first, and only *after* the label is gone, do I use the
solvent to try to get rid of the goop.

So some of us (e.g., peanut oil Oren! ) are attacking different problems.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:19:41 -0700, Charles Bishop wrote:

If ethanol works, how about isopropyl alcohol, a near relative?

The problem with *any* alcohol, is getting it without the water.

I guess mixing gasoline with water might not be a bad idea though.

Dunno. I never tried it.

But that's the theoretical problem with consumer alcohol (which is a lot of
water with some alcohol).

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:31:08 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

So, by using gasoline for cleaning and label removal, you're dumping
VOCs into the atmosphere. If there was a reward, I would probably
turn you in for re-education and brain washing (using an eco friend
brain wash cleaner).

Yikes. And I invited you to our weekly inventors luncheon too!