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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
On 11/2/2016 1:01 AM, Bill Moinihan wrote:
Meanie wrote: The lamps you have look like T12. That means, according to the LED info, your LEDs will not reach the 50,000 hours because you are using T12 ballasts. You are correct. All 16 of the 4-foot fluorescent bulbs said they were 40 watts, rapid start, average life 12,000 hours. https://s18.postimg.org/llp51oemh/01..._t12_bulbs.jpg Of the four ceiling mounted units, three worked fine either with four T12/40W fluorescent bulbs or with four T8 LED bulbs. https://s22.postimg.org/8hx6ech7l/03..._just_fine.jpg The one ceiling unit that was humming badly had two ballasts inside when I removed the center covering steel plate: https://s13.postimg.org/kekhhvot3/04...0_ballasts.jpg Both ballasts were of the same type, with a sticker on each saying Universal Therm-o-matic rapid start ballast For two F40W T12/RS lamps, high power factor Cat No 446-LR-TC-P, 120V, 60Hertz, 0.8Amp line Universal Mfg. Corp, Paterson NJ, Made in USA Class P Automatic resetting thermal protected https://s11.postimg.org/orqbysecj/02...s_40_W_T12.jpg Even though only one ballast is humming badly, I found the oddest situation when I put in either just one known-good fluorescent bulb or just 1 of the new LED bulbs. Only one lane worked with just one bulb, which was this lane, which I'll call lane 2 since it's the second one from the outside: https://s15.postimg.org/4gu6scm0r/a_...is_working.jpg But when I put the single bulb in any other lane (leaving the rest of the lanes empty) the bulb didn't light up (whether it was fluorescent or LED). Is there any way to tell which two of the four lanes *each* ballast controls? Does the one good ballast control the two inside lanes? https://s17.postimg.org/tk1zfwckv/two_inside_lanes.jpg Or does one ballast control the two lanes next to each other? https://s16.postimg.org/uycmzw2wl/tw...each_other.jpg Or does the one ballast control every other lane? https://s12.postimg.org/vqlyluwa5/every_other_lane.jpg A four lamp fixture with two ballasts will operate two lamps each. One will control the outer lamps and the other will control the inner lamps. To determine what ballast controls what lamps, you need to follow a wire to the tombstone (pin) connection of the lamp. For example, follow the yellow wire to one of the connectors. If it's the inner lamp, then that ballast controls those two lamps and the other will control the outer two. |
#2
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Meanie wrote:
A four lamp fixture with two ballasts will operate two lamps each. I've looked this up last night, watching videos and googling how the things work so I agree with you that it's 1 ballast for 2 lamps. My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact). So it's probably no longer sold since it's most likely "magnetorestrictive", which means that it squeezes an iron core at 120 cycles per second (which is causing the loud hum in one of the two ballasts). Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts. One will control the outer lamps and the other will control the inner lamps. Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner. Is that the standard setup? To determine what ballast controls what lamps, you need to follow a wire to the tombstone (pin) connection of the lamp. Yes. I saw videos where people followed those wires. I like the name "tombstone", as it fits the rounded-top rectangular shape. I also found out that a T12 is 12/8ths of an inch in diameter, so, just looking at the lamps, I should have known that the diameter indicated a T12 while the diameter of the LEDs indicated a T8 (8/8ths of an inch), although neither seems to be that large in diameter in actuality. should indicate For example, follow the yellow wire to one of the connectors. If it's the inner lamp, then that ballast controls those two lamps and the other will control the outer two. Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors: The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps. It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other end of the second of those two lamps. I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1 replacement. I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement? |
#3
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Bill Moinihan wrote:
My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact). Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts. I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there? |
#4
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
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#5
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
On 11/2/2016 10:17 AM, Bill Moinihan wrote:
Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts. Correct. T12 are obsolete. Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner. Is that the standard setup? Yes. The other set up would be a single four lamp ballast. Yes. I saw videos where people followed those wires. I like the name "tombstone", as it fits the rounded-top rectangular shape. I also found out that a T12 is 12/8ths of an inch in diameter, so, just looking at the lamps, I should have known that the diameter indicated a T12 while the diameter of the LEDs indicated a T8 (8/8ths of an inch), although neither seems to be that large in diameter in actuality. Correct. A T8 is supposed to be 1 inch in diameter. Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors: The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps. It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other end of the second of those two lamps. I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1 replacement. I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement? Ballasts are now becoming universal. In that, I mean, they can accommodate voltage of 120 to 277 and they no longer have two wires of each color. Instead, they offer one red and two blues. Each of those wires connects with the two wires from each lamp. Thus, the single red will connect to the two yellows, one blue will connect to two blues and the other blue will connect to the two reds. Unfortunately, inexpensive replacements usually mean cheap ballasts which will not last long. Also keep in mind if you continue to use fluorescent fixtures, when a lamp is burned out, it is best to replace asap to ensure long life of the ballast. When a lamp isn't working, the ballast continuously attempts igniting the non-working lamp and that decreases the life of the ballast. |
#6
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
On 11/2/2016 10:25 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Moinihan wrote: My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact). Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts. I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there? When LEDs were first available as replacements for tubed fluorescent, they had to be direct wired (removal of ballasts). Now they've made LEDs to use the existing ballasts as it's driver. Though, that could still differ based on geographic location. |
#7
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Ralph Mowery wrote:
For about $ 20 you can get a single electronic ballast that will run all 4 tubes. Then put in the newer T8 bulbs. You will have to follow the wiring diagram that is on the ballast as it will be different from the old one. The new ones are made to fit in the same bracket/screw holes as one of the older ones. Thanks for that suggestion! How does this one look from Home Depot? http://www.homedepot.com/p/120-Volt-...3885/205409893 One question is whether I need "instant start" or "programmed/rapid start": https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4...cent-ballasts/ I think I need "rapid" start because that's what is there now, I think. Since cost is a major issue for me (I have little money but want to get rid of the buzzing from the bad ballast and if I can get rid of fluorescent tubes and save money on electricity, that would be a plus), here's the cost breakdown: $20 for the T8 electronic ballast $28 for the four T8 LED bulbs ----------------- %50 roughly, for the retrofit Is that my best option? |
#8
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Andy Burns wrote:
I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there? You've hit upon the major flaw of my "retrofit". I wanted to get rid of the fluorescent, especially since one of them buzzes loudly. But I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars just now. People suggested LEDs for two reasons: a. Energy cost b. Convenience I think the solution I came up with, which fits into a fixture with T8 ballast, is hitting me on both: A. I don't see how it saves energy yet, since it's the same ballast B. The T8 LEDs may burn out far more quickly since it's a T12 ballast On the first point, I admit I'm confused. How can it save *any* energy, if the ballast is the same? The LED box says "Uses 47% less energy" where it clarifies that in the small print saying "47% energy savings is based on the difference between using a 17W LED replacement lamp, compared to using a 32W fluorescent lamp with an electronic ballast. Performance varies based on ballast type. Your savings will depend on your rates, fluorescent lamp (sic) you are replacing and actual hours of operation. In my case, I have the non-electronic ballast, and it's 40Watts. I'm confused. Plus my energy costs are three times the 11 cents they seem to use in the LED light numbers. So, I'm confused. Does any of this mean I'll get more or less than the roughly half savings of energy costs? How? |
#9
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drop in LED tubes, was: Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
In Bill Moinihan writes:
I think the solution I came up with, which fits into a fixture with T8 ballast, is hitting me on both: A. I don't see how it saves energy yet, since it's the same ballast B. The T8 LEDs may burn out far more quickly since it's a T12 ballast On the first point, I admit I'm confused. How can it save *any* energy, if the ballast is the same? My head hurts on trying to figure out just how a legacy ballast can worh with a retrofitted LED tube, but they do. I've installed a few of them. I measured the before and after using a Kil-a-watt brand meter. Don't have the paper here, but the measurements were something like the following. twin "40" fluorescent fixtu Ballast only w/no lamps: 12 watts Ballast w/both lamps: 84 Retrofitted with a "drop in" LED: Ballst w/LEDs: 60 Light output was higer with the LEDs. Again, these are NOT the exact numbers, but there definitely was a savings when using the drop in replacements. -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
#10
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Meanie wrote:
Correct. T12 are obsolete. Thanks for confirming. The funny thing is that the only difference is the diameter (and the wattage), so, it's odd that they're "obsolete" just because they're a bit fatter. What's so bad about a 40W tube versus a 32W tube? Is the 8 watts really a big deal? Or is there some other reason to ban "fat" tubes? Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner. Is that the standard setup? Yes. The other set up would be a single four lamp ballast. Since I think I have two bad ballasts, the single four-lamp ballast for 20 bucks is what I'm gonna get tomorrow at Home Depot (if they have it). Correct. A T8 is supposed to be 1 inch in diameter. I measured the T8 LED with a ruler and it was close to one inch, but the T12 was off by a lot. It was 1-3/8ths of an inch, or a T11 in diameter. Ballasts are now becoming universal. In that, I mean, they can accommodate voltage of 120 to 277 and they no longer have two wires of each color. Instead, they offer one red and two blues. Each of those wires connects with the two wires from each lamp. Thus, the single red will connect to the two yellows, one blue will connect to two blues and the other blue will connect to the two reds. Hmmm... that sounds like exactly the same setup, only different colors. I guess the colors actually "mean" something then... 'cuz color is the only difference on the outside. Unfortunately, inexpensive replacements usually mean cheap ballasts which will not last long. Also keep in mind if you continue to use fluorescent fixtures, when a lamp is burned out, it is best to replace asap to ensure long life of the ballast. When a lamp isn't working, the ballast continuously attempts igniting the non-working lamp and that decreases the life of the ballast. Thank you for that hint, as I did not know that. They never taught me anything about this stuff in school. Given out of 16 bulbs I took out, only about half were still working, so I'm surprised only one ballast was outright dead (with another suspect). |
#11
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Meanie wrote:
When LEDs were first available as replacements for tubed fluorescent, they had to be direct wired (removal of ballasts). Now they've made LEDs to use the existing ballasts as it's driver. Though, that could still differ based on geographic location. I don't know anything about LED tubes but if it was "direct wire" that might be better because who needs the ballast anyway? I don't even understand what the ballast even does, in the case of the LED tubes. Do you? |
#13
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
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#14
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Ralph Mowery wrote:
It could be the 8 watts or more likely the makeup of the tube. Less glass and material. The tubes do contain mercury so less of that to deal with. It's not obvious why they banned 40 Watts but kept 32 Watts (which seems miniscule of a difference). Googling, I found this: Why did US Department of Energy discontinued the T12 lights? http://www.t5fixtures.com/why-did-us...he-t12-lights/ Here is a direct quote of the main reason: "T12 light bulbs were becoming extremely inefficient" Here is a second direct quote of the secondary reason: "Polychlorinaed Biphenyls are used in T12 fixture ballast manufacturing" Huh? Why would a T12 ballast use PCBs while a T8 ballast wouldn't? Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you? Googling some more, I find this: The Case Against T12 Bulbs that Invited the Ban https://www.shineretrofits.com/knowl...ly-banned.html Which says (verbatim): "the conventional four-foot T12 lamp still consumes a whopping 40 watts every hour. On the other hand, the more modern T8 lamp consumes anything between 25 and 32 watts of energy in an hour." So I guess the 8 watts mattered to the DOE. SImilarly, it says "The T12 lamps are not long-lasting", but, since when does the DOE care about how long bulbs last (especially since incandescents don't last all that long either). Now we get to the hazardous waste where it says "T12 lamps release toxic mercury and PCB waste products". Huh? Why would T12s release more of these than T8s? |
#15
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drop in LED tubes, was: Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
danny burstein wrote:
My head hurts on trying to figure out just how a legacy ballast can worh with a retrofitted LED tube, but they do. I've installed a few of them. I only yesterday figured out how (by looking it up) a legacy ballast works with LED tubes, but I couldn't find an article that explains how it works with LEDs. I measured the before and after using a Kil-a-watt brand meter. Don't have the paper here, but the measurements were something like the following. twin "40" fluorescent fixtu Ballast only w/no lamps: 12 watts Ballast w/both lamps: 84 Retrofitted with a "drop in" LED: Ballst w/LEDs: 60 Light output was higer with the LEDs. Again, these are NOT the exact numbers, but there definitely was a savings when using the drop in replacements. Thanks for providing that reference information. I have to admit, the two 4-bulb lamps currently with the LEDs in them are brighter than the sun it seems, at least in a garage they are. Compared to the fluorescents, they rock with light output! I just hope they last, given they are T8s on a T12 ballast. |
#16
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Ralph Mowery wrote:
You need to get the bulbs to match the ballast which in this case is 'instant start'. I have not bought any floursecent bulbs ina while, but the last time I bought them seems that I could get a box of 12 for only a little more than 4 bulbs. If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can not comment on that. It would be nice if I can just cut out the ballast altogether. Maybe the LED bulbs work with or without the ballast? I'll call Feit tomorrow to ask if that's possible. |
#17
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Bill Moinihan wrote:
Now we get to the hazardous waste where it says "T12 lamps release toxic mercury and PCB waste products". Huh? Why would T12s release more of these than T8s? Reading more, I think they are just making most of this stuff up. This article lists all the stuff that was retired: http://www.ledsource.com/blog/light-...orescent-tube/ 100 watt and 150 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2012 75 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2013 60 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2014 40 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2014 T8 single-pin fluorescent 8 foot slim and high-output ¡V banned January 2009 Most reflector lamps over 50 watts (except some 65W) ¡V July 1, 2010 Magnetic ballasts for many standard fluorescent lamps ¡V July 1, 2010 T12 fluorescent tubes 4 foot ¡V banned July 14, 2012 T12 fluorescent tubes 2 foot U-Bend ¡V banned July 14, 2012 T12 fluorescent tubes 8 foot (slim and high output)¡V banned July 14, 2012 T8 with low CRI ¡V banned July 14, 2012 (DOE changed CRI to 87 in April 2011) PAR20, PAR30, PAR38 Halogen standard lamps (within 40W to 205W) ¡V banned July 14, 2012 So it just seems to be an "efficiency" thing since they all have different secondary reasons. |
#18
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Ralph Mowery wrote:
If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can not comment on that. This bulb seems to simply require me to "bypass the ballast": http://www.ledsource.com/products/ef...ies-led-tubes/ |
#19
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
Bill Moinihan wrote:
Here is a second direct quote of the secondary reason: "Polychlorinaed Biphenyls are used in T12 fixture ballast manufacturing" Huh? Why would a T12 ballast use PCBs while a T8 ballast wouldn't? Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you? Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW ballasts have had any PCB content for decades. Jon |
#20
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 14:48:37 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:
Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW ballasts have had any PCB content for decades. Thanks for that update. After reading a few of these articles, and after noting that the government bans *plenty* of other bulbs (which don't have ballasts), the *real* reason is just the energy efficiency, I'm sure. I guess the write of that article I referenced needed more words, so they went on about PCBs, but, that's not the real reason. They even banned some T8 bulbs, for example. And Halogens. And incandescent. So, it's all about energy. |
#21
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Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
On 11/03/2016 3:16 PM, Bill Moinihan wrote:
.... So, it's all about energy. No, it's "all for the children"... |
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