On 11/2/2016 1:01 AM, Bill Moinihan wrote:
Meanie wrote:

The lamps you have look like T12. That means, according to the LED info,
your LEDs will not reach the 50,000 hours because you are using T12
ballasts.

You are correct.

All 16 of the 4-foot fluorescent bulbs said they were 40 watts, rapid start,
average life 12,000 hours.
https://s18.postimg.org/llp51oemh/01..._t12_bulbs.jpg

Of the four ceiling mounted units, three worked fine either with four
T12/40W fluorescent bulbs or with four T8 LED bulbs.
https://s22.postimg.org/8hx6ech7l/03..._just_fine.jpg

The one ceiling unit that was humming badly had two ballasts inside when I
removed the center covering steel plate:
https://s13.postimg.org/kekhhvot3/04...0_ballasts.jpg

Both ballasts were of the same type, with a sticker on each saying
Universal Therm-o-matic rapid start ballast
For two F40W T12/RS lamps, high power factor
Cat No 446-LR-TC-P, 120V, 60Hertz, 0.8Amp line
Universal Mfg. Corp, Paterson NJ, Made in USA
Class P Automatic resetting thermal protected
https://s11.postimg.org/orqbysecj/02...s_40_W_T12.jpg

Even though only one ballast is humming badly, I found the oddest situation
when I put in either just one known-good fluorescent bulb or just 1 of the
new LED bulbs.

Only one lane worked with just one bulb, which was this lane, which I'll
call lane 2 since it's the second one from the outside:
https://s15.postimg.org/4gu6scm0r/a_...is_working.jpg

But when I put the single bulb in any other lane (leaving the rest of the
lanes empty) the bulb didn't light up (whether it was fluorescent or LED).

Is there any way to tell which two of the four lanes *each* ballast
controls?

Does the one good ballast control the two inside lanes?
https://s17.postimg.org/tk1zfwckv/two_inside_lanes.jpg

Or does one ballast control the two lanes next to each other?
https://s16.postimg.org/uycmzw2wl/tw...each_other.jpg

Or does the one ballast control every other lane?
https://s12.postimg.org/vqlyluwa5/every_other_lane.jpg



A four lamp fixture with two ballasts will operate two lamps each. One
will control the outer lamps and the other will control the inner lamps.
To determine what ballast controls what lamps, you need to follow a wire
to the tombstone (pin) connection of the lamp. For example, follow the
yellow wire to one of the connectors. If it's the inner lamp, then that
ballast controls those two lamps and the other will control the outer two.

Meanie wrote:

A four lamp fixture with two ballasts will operate two lamps each.

I've looked this up last night, watching videos and googling how the things
work so I agree with you that it's 1 ballast for 2 lamps.

My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact). So
it's probably no longer sold since it's most likely "magnetorestrictive",
which means that it squeezes an iron core at 120 cycles per second (which is
causing the loud hum in one of the two ballasts).

Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to
be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.

One will control the outer lamps and the other will control the inner lamps.

Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner.
Is that the standard setup?

To determine what ballast controls what lamps, you need to follow a wire
to the tombstone (pin) connection of the lamp.

Yes. I saw videos where people followed those wires.
I like the name "tombstone", as it fits the rounded-top rectangular shape.

I also found out that a T12 is 12/8ths of an inch in diameter, so, just
looking at the lamps, I should have known that the diameter indicated a T12
while the diameter of the LEDs indicated a T8 (8/8ths of an inch), although
neither seems to be that large in diameter in actuality.

should indicate For example, follow the
yellow wire to one of the connectors. If it's the inner lamp, then that
ballast controls those two lamps and the other will control the outer two.

Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors:
The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps.
It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of
those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other
end of the second of those two lamps.

I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in
looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1
replacement.

I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the
entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement?

Bill Moinihan wrote:

My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact).
Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to
be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.

I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent
tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the
Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually
involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there?

In article , says...


Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors:
The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps.
It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of
those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other
end of the second of those two lamps.

I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in
looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1
replacement.

I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the
entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement?

For about $ 20 you can get a single electronic ballast that will run all
4 tubes. Then put in the newer T8 bulbs.

You will have to follow the wiring diagram that is on the ballast as it
will be different from the old one. The new ones are made to fit in the
same bracket/screw holes as one of the older ones.

On 11/2/2016 10:17 AM, Bill Moinihan wrote:


Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to
be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.


Correct. T12 are obsolete.



Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner.
Is that the standard setup?

Yes. The other set up would be a single four lamp ballast.



Yes. I saw videos where people followed those wires.
I like the name "tombstone", as it fits the rounded-top rectangular shape.

I also found out that a T12 is 12/8ths of an inch in diameter, so, just
looking at the lamps, I should have known that the diameter indicated a T12
while the diameter of the LEDs indicated a T8 (8/8ths of an inch), although
neither seems to be that large in diameter in actuality.

Correct. A T8 is supposed to be 1 inch in diameter.


Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors:
The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps.
It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of
those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other
end of the second of those two lamps.

I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in
looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1
replacement.

I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the
entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement?

Ballasts are now becoming universal. In that, I mean, they can
accommodate voltage of 120 to 277 and they no longer have two wires of
each color. Instead, they offer one red and two blues. Each of those
wires connects with the two wires from each lamp. Thus, the single red
will connect to the two yellows, one blue will connect to two blues and
the other blue will connect to the two reds.

Unfortunately, inexpensive replacements usually mean cheap ballasts
which will not last long. Also keep in mind if you continue to use
fluorescent fixtures, when a lamp is burned out, it is best to replace
asap to ensure long life of the ballast. When a lamp isn't working, the
ballast continuously attempts igniting the non-working lamp and that
decreases the life of the ballast.

On 11/2/2016 10:25 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Moinihan wrote:

My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact).
Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may
have to
be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.

I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent
tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the
Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually
involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there?



When LEDs were first available as replacements for tubed fluorescent,
they had to be direct wired (removal of ballasts). Now they've made LEDs
to use the existing ballasts as it's driver. Though, that could still
differ based on geographic location.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

For about $ 20 you can get a single electronic ballast that will run all
4 tubes. Then put in the newer T8 bulbs.

You will have to follow the wiring diagram that is on the ballast as it
will be different from the old one. The new ones are made to fit in the
same bracket/screw holes as one of the older ones.

Thanks for that suggestion!

How does this one look from Home Depot?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/120-Volt-...3885/205409893

One question is whether I need "instant start" or "programmed/rapid start":
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4...cent-ballasts/

I think I need "rapid" start because that's what is there now, I think.

Since cost is a major issue for me (I have little money but want to get rid
of the buzzing from the bad ballast and if I can get rid of fluorescent
tubes and save money on electricity, that would be a plus), here's the cost
breakdown:

$20 for the T8 electronic ballast
$28 for the four T8 LED bulbs
-----------------
%50 roughly, for the retrofit

Is that my best option?

Andy Burns wrote:

I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent
tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the
Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually
involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there?

You've hit upon the major flaw of my "retrofit".

I wanted to get rid of the fluorescent, especially since one of them buzzes
loudly. But I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars just now.

People suggested LEDs for two reasons:
a. Energy cost
b. Convenience

I think the solution I came up with, which fits into a fixture with T8
ballast, is hitting me on both:

A. I don't see how it saves energy yet, since it's the same ballast
B. The T8 LEDs may burn out far more quickly since it's a T12 ballast

On the first point, I admit I'm confused.
How can it save *any* energy, if the ballast is the same?

The LED box says "Uses 47% less energy" where it clarifies that in the small
print saying "47% energy savings is based on the difference between using a
17W LED replacement lamp, compared to using a 32W fluorescent lamp with an
electronic ballast. Performance varies based on ballast type. Your savings
will depend on your rates, fluorescent lamp (sic) you are replacing and
actual hours of operation.

In my case, I have the non-electronic ballast, and it's 40Watts.
I'm confused.

Plus my energy costs are three times the 11 cents they seem to use in the
LED light numbers.

So, I'm confused.

Does any of this mean I'll get more or less than the roughly half savings of
energy costs?

How?

In Bill Moinihan writes:

I think the solution I came up with, which fits into a fixture with T8
ballast, is hitting me on both:

A. I don't see how it saves energy yet, since it's the same ballast
B. The T8 LEDs may burn out far more quickly since it's a T12 ballast

On the first point, I admit I'm confused.
How can it save *any* energy, if the ballast is the same?

My head hurts on trying to figure out just how a legacy
ballast can worh with a retrofitted LED tube, but
they do. I've installed a few of them.

I measured the before and after using a Kil-a-watt brand meter.
Don't have the paper here, but the measurements were something
like the following.

twin "40" fluorescent fixtu

Ballast only w/no lamps: 12 watts
Ballast w/both lamps: 84

Retrofitted with a "drop in" LED:

Ballst w/LEDs: 60

Light output was higer with the LEDs.

Again, these are NOT the exact numbers,
but there definitely was a savings when
using the drop in replacements.




--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Meanie wrote:

Correct. T12 are obsolete.

Thanks for confirming. The funny thing is that the only difference is the
diameter (and the wattage), so, it's odd that they're "obsolete" just
because they're a bit fatter.

What's so bad about a 40W tube versus a 32W tube?
Is the 8 watts really a big deal?

Or is there some other reason to ban "fat" tubes?

Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner.
Is that the standard setup?

Yes. The other set up would be a single four lamp ballast.

Since I think I have two bad ballasts, the single four-lamp ballast for 20
bucks is what I'm gonna get tomorrow at Home Depot (if they have it).

Correct. A T8 is supposed to be 1 inch in diameter.

I measured the T8 LED with a ruler and it was close to one inch, but the T12
was off by a lot. It was 1-3/8ths of an inch, or a T11 in diameter.

Ballasts are now becoming universal. In that, I mean, they can
accommodate voltage of 120 to 277 and they no longer have two wires of
each color. Instead, they offer one red and two blues. Each of those
wires connects with the two wires from each lamp. Thus, the single red
will connect to the two yellows, one blue will connect to two blues and
the other blue will connect to the two reds.

Hmmm... that sounds like exactly the same setup, only different colors. I
guess the colors actually "mean" something then... 'cuz color is the only
difference on the outside.

Unfortunately, inexpensive replacements usually mean cheap ballasts
which will not last long. Also keep in mind if you continue to use
fluorescent fixtures, when a lamp is burned out, it is best to replace
asap to ensure long life of the ballast. When a lamp isn't working, the
ballast continuously attempts igniting the non-working lamp and that
decreases the life of the ballast.

Thank you for that hint, as I did not know that.
They never taught me anything about this stuff in school.

Given out of 16 bulbs I took out, only about half were still working, so I'm
surprised only one ballast was outright dead (with another suspect).

Meanie wrote:

When LEDs were first available as replacements for tubed fluorescent,
they had to be direct wired (removal of ballasts). Now they've made LEDs
to use the existing ballasts as it's driver. Though, that could still
differ based on geographic location.

I don't know anything about LED tubes but if it was "direct wire" that might
be better because who needs the ballast anyway?

I don't even understand what the ballast even does, in the case of the LED
tubes.

Do you?

In article , says...


Thanks for that suggestion!

How does this one look from Home Depot?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/120-Volt-...3885/205409893

One question is whether I need "instant start" or "programmed/rapid start":
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4...cent-ballasts/

I think I need "rapid" start because that's what is there now, I think.

Since cost is a major issue for me (I have little money but want to get rid
of the buzzing from the bad ballast and if I can get rid of fluorescent
tubes and save money on electricity, that would be a plus), here's the cost
breakdown:

$20 for the T8 electronic ballast
$28 for the four T8 LED bulbs
-----------------
%50 roughly, for the retrofit

Is that my best option?

You need to get the bulbs to match the ballast which in this case is
'instant start'. I have not bought any floursecent bulbs ina while, but
the last time I bought them seems that I could get a box of 12 for only
a little more than 4 bulbs.

If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
not comment on that.

In article , says...

Meanie wrote:

Correct. T12 are obsolete.

Thanks for confirming. The funny thing is that the only difference is the
diameter (and the wattage), so, it's odd that they're "obsolete" just
because they're a bit fatter.

What's so bad about a 40W tube versus a 32W tube?
Is the 8 watts really a big deal?

Or is there some other reason to ban "fat" tubes?


It could be the 8 watts or more likely the makeup of the tube. Less
glass and material. The tubes do contain mercury so less of that to
deal with. They kept cutting down on the mercury in the t12 tubes and
someetimes they would not start up if it was much below 50 deg F. Not
sure of the makeup of the coating on the inside ot the tubes, but less
used there also.

I worked in a large company that had thousands of bulbs. Toward the
last of the t12 tubes we had many that would not start up and this was
in a room that was over 70 deg F.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

It could be the 8 watts or more likely the makeup of the tube. Less
glass and material. The tubes do contain mercury so less of that to
deal with.

It's not obvious why they banned 40 Watts but kept 32 Watts (which seems
miniscule of a difference).

Googling, I found this:
Why did US Department of Energy discontinued the T12 lights?
http://www.t5fixtures.com/why-did-us...he-t12-lights/

Here is a direct quote of the main reason:
"T12 light bulbs were becoming extremely inefficient"

Here is a second direct quote of the secondary reason:
"Polychlorinaed Biphenyls are used in T12 fixture ballast manufacturing"

Huh? Why would a T12 ballast use PCBs while a T8 ballast wouldn't?
Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

Googling some more, I find this:
The Case Against T12 Bulbs that Invited the Ban

https://www.shineretrofits.com/knowl...ly-banned.html

Which says (verbatim):
"the conventional four-foot T12 lamp still consumes a whopping 40 watts
every hour. On the other hand, the more modern T8 lamp consumes anything
between 25 and 32 watts of energy in an hour."

So I guess the 8 watts mattered to the DOE.

SImilarly, it says "The T12 lamps are not long-lasting", but, since when
does the DOE care about how long bulbs last (especially since incandescents
don't last all that long either).

Now we get to the hazardous waste where it says "T12 lamps release toxic
mercury and PCB waste products".

Huh? Why would T12s release more of these than T8s?

danny burstein wrote:

My head hurts on trying to figure out just how a legacy
ballast can worh with a retrofitted LED tube, but
they do. I've installed a few of them.

I only yesterday figured out how (by looking it up) a legacy ballast works
with LED tubes, but I couldn't find an article that explains how it works
with LEDs.

I measured the before and after using a Kil-a-watt brand meter.
Don't have the paper here, but the measurements were something
like the following.

twin "40" fluorescent fixtu

Ballast only w/no lamps: 12 watts
Ballast w/both lamps: 84

Retrofitted with a "drop in" LED:

Ballst w/LEDs: 60

Light output was higer with the LEDs.

Again, these are NOT the exact numbers,
but there definitely was a savings when
using the drop in replacements.

Thanks for providing that reference information.
I have to admit, the two 4-bulb lamps currently with the LEDs in them are
brighter than the sun it seems, at least in a garage they are.

Compared to the fluorescents, they rock with light output!

I just hope they last, given they are T8s on a T12 ballast.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

You need to get the bulbs to match the ballast which in this case is
'instant start'. I have not bought any floursecent bulbs ina while, but
the last time I bought them seems that I could get a box of 12 for only
a little more than 4 bulbs.

If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
not comment on that.

It would be nice if I can just cut out the ballast altogether.
Maybe the LED bulbs work with or without the ballast?
I'll call Feit tomorrow to ask if that's possible.

Bill Moinihan wrote:

Now we get to the hazardous waste where it says "T12 lamps release toxic
mercury and PCB waste products".

Huh? Why would T12s release more of these than T8s?

Reading more, I think they are just making most of this stuff up.

This article lists all the stuff that was retired:
http://www.ledsource.com/blog/light-...orescent-tube/


100 watt and 150 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2012
75 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2013
60 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2014
40 watt incandescent A-lamp ¡V banned January 1, 2014

T8 single-pin fluorescent 8 foot slim and high-output ¡V banned January
2009
Most reflector lamps over 50 watts (except some 65W) ¡V July 1, 2010
Magnetic ballasts for many standard fluorescent lamps ¡V July 1, 2010
T12 fluorescent tubes 4 foot ¡V banned July 14, 2012
T12 fluorescent tubes 2 foot U-Bend ¡V banned July 14, 2012
T12 fluorescent tubes 8 foot (slim and high output)¡V banned July 14,
2012
T8 with low CRI ¡V banned July 14, 2012 (DOE changed CRI to 87 in April
2011)
PAR20, PAR30, PAR38 Halogen standard lamps (within 40W to 205W) ¡V
banned July 14, 2012

So it just seems to be an "efficiency" thing since they all have different
secondary reasons.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
not comment on that.

This bulb seems to simply require me to "bypass the ballast":
http://www.ledsource.com/products/ef...ies-led-tubes/

Bill Moinihan wrote:


Here is a second direct quote of the secondary reason:
"Polychlorinaed Biphenyls are used in T12 fixture ballast manufacturing"

Huh? Why would a T12 ballast use PCBs while a T8 ballast wouldn't?
Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but
more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW
ballasts have had any PCB content for decades.

Jon

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 14:48:37 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but
more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW
ballasts have had any PCB content for decades.

Thanks for that update.

After reading a few of these articles, and after noting that the government
bans *plenty* of other bulbs (which don't have ballasts), the *real* reason
is just the energy efficiency, I'm sure.

I guess the write of that article I referenced needed more words, so they
went on about PCBs, but, that's not the real reason.

They even banned some T8 bulbs, for example. And Halogens. And incandescent.

So, it's all about energy.

On 11/03/2016 3:16 PM, Bill Moinihan wrote:
....

So, it's all about energy.

No, it's "all for the children"...