On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:58:44 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

wrote in message ...
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:27:32 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
"isw" wrote in message ]...
In article ,
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

Correct. But I don't think X10 makes a three-way appliance module.

They all are. You just need an X10 wireless receiver and two (or more)
X10 remote switches.

Ahem. That is not the common usage of "two-way" or "three-way".

Sure it is. The appliance can be turned on or off from two or three
(or N) locations.

It wasn't like that when I was growing up 60 years ago.

What wasn't like that?

These terms have a specific meaning that refers to a hard-wired connection.

It refers to a function. The mechanics of how that function is
performed is irrelevant, isn't it?

On 11/25/2013 2:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 01:41:20 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

I've got a Wemo device in use now, pretty slick stuff. I can switch my
lights on and off from Jena Germany or China, with confirmation (if I
don't want to look at the webcam).


http://www.belkin.com/us/wemo
Kinda expen$ive. Uses wi-fi to communicate, not power lines. Supports
IFTTT.
https://ifttt.com/wtf
A major step up from X10. However, it might be a bit overkill for a
3-way light switch.

How to turn on a room light:

1960: Walk over to wall switch. Flip switch. Light turns on.

1975: Find the X10 wireless remote control. Try to remember which
button controls which light. Press button. Wrong light. Press "all
on" and never mind the electric bill.

2003: Say the magic buzzword that activates the voice controlled home
automation system.
You say: "Room light on".
Controller asks: "Which room"?
You say: "Can't you figure out which room I'm in"?
Controller says: "I do not understand the command".
You snarl: "Bedroom"
Controller asks: "Bright, reading, soft, or motion controlled"?
You say: "Bright" and the lights turn on.
You say (quietly): "Worthless piece of disgusting junk..."
Controller says: "I do not understand the command".
Sound of breaking glass as something hits the LCD display.

2013: Walk into dark room and try to find your tablet computer. Login
with biometric authentication and password. On the 4th try, the
tablet finally recognizes your hung over, unshaven, and unkempt
appearance. Wait while a dozen applications insist on updating
themselves immediately. Find the WeMo light switch app among the
dozen new games the kids have installed. Push the relevant light
switch button. Nothing happens. Try again. Still nothing. Pause
watching Netflix Super-HD movie to recover bandwidth. Try again.
Light comes on.

This is progress?

And all I want is a switch that will turn the kitchen light on and
off, from about 18 ft away without, and I don't want to add wiring.
I want it to act like what normally is called a 3* way switch.
I want the existing kitchen switch to at least look about the same,
being aware that the wiring/components may be different.
I would like it to drive a CFL bulb.
This model has a huge presence on the web,
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Chamberlai...h-Set/17101311
I says 500 watt incandescent lighting only. I see writings about these
types of receivers needing some leakage current, I'm tempted to get one
and try it.
At this point I have remote switch overload.

Thanks all, Mikek


*Searching the net I see, 2 way switch and 3 way switch are often used
to describe the same thing

These terms have a specific meaning that refers to a hard-wired connection.

It refers to a function. The mechanics of how that function is
performed is irrelevant, isn't it?

Not in this case.

If multiple wireless switches can be installed to activate lights or
appliances, then you have an N-way setup.

In article , says...

On 11/24/2013 7:51 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
You might want to look at X10 modules. X10 has two-way switches.

It's not so much whether a switch system will work with CFLs, but
whether CFLs will work with switch systems. Most X10 modules can switch
CFLs, and dim some * models.

* Not to be confused with the food.

I checked my CFL, it says "Not Dimable"
Btw, my bulb is 5000k 1550 to 1686 lumens? found three
ratings for the same bulb.
ECOT23 or sku384314. May look for new bulb, (again)

Mikek

A diffuser?

Jamie

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:32:50 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

These terms have a specific meaning that refers to a hard-wired connection.

It refers to a function. The mechanics of how that function is
performed is irrelevant, isn't it?

Not in this case.

If multiple wireless switches can be installed to activate lights or
appliances, then you have an N-way setup.

WTF are you talking about?

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 01:41:20 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

I've got a Wemo device in use now, pretty slick stuff. I can switch my
lights on and off from Jena Germany or China, with confirmation (if I
don't want to look at the webcam).


http://www.belkin.com/us/wemo
Kinda expen$ive. Uses wi-fi to communicate, not power lines. Supports
IFTTT.
https://ifttt.com/wtf
A major step up from X10. However, it might be a bit overkill for a
3-way light switch.

How to turn on a room light:

1960: Walk over to wall switch. Flip switch. Light turns on.

1975: Find the X10 wireless remote control. Try to remember which
button controls which light. Press button. Wrong light. Press "all
on" and never mind the electric bill.

2003: Say the magic buzzword that activates the voice controlled home
automation system.
You say: "Room light on".
Controller asks: "Which room"?
You say: "Can't you figure out which room I'm in"?
Controller says: "I do not understand the command".
You snarl: "Bedroom"
Controller asks: "Bright, reading, soft, or motion controlled"?
You say: "Bright" and the lights turn on.
You say (quietly): "Worthless piece of disgusting junk..."
Controller says: "I do not understand the command".
Sound of breaking glass as something hits the LCD display.

2013: Walk into dark room and try to find your tablet computer. Login
with biometric authentication and password. On the 4th try, the
tablet finally recognizes your hung over, unshaven, and unkempt
appearance. Wait while a dozen applications insist on updating
themselves immediately. Find the WeMo light switch app among the
dozen new games the kids have installed. Push the relevant light
switch button. Nothing happens. Try again. Still nothing. Pause
watching Netflix Super-HD movie to recover bandwidth. Try again.
Light comes on.

This is progress?

SO you're saying the "CLAPPER" which I didn't see listed, would be a
better choice?

Jamie

I just saw these products in Home Despot, and thought they might be of
interest...

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...tle-inventions

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"isw" wrote in message ]...
In article ,
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

Correct. But I don't think X10 makes a three-way appliance module.

They all are. You just need an X10 wireless receiver and two (or more)
X10 remote switches.

Ahem. That is not the common usage of "two-way" or "three-way".
Perhaps, but the effect is exactly the same: if light is on, any
switch can turn it off - and vice-versa.

amdx wrote:
On 11/25/2013 2:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 01:41:20 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

I've got a Wemo device in use now, pretty slick stuff. I can switch my
lights on and off from Jena Germany or China, with confirmation (if I
don't want to look at the webcam).


http://www.belkin.com/us/wemo
Kinda expen$ive. Uses wi-fi to communicate, not power lines. Supports
IFTTT.
https://ifttt.com/wtf
A major step up from X10. However, it might be a bit overkill for a
3-way light switch.

How to turn on a room light:

1960: Walk over to wall switch. Flip switch. Light turns on.

1975: Find the X10 wireless remote control. Try to remember which
button controls which light. Press button. Wrong light. Press "all
on" and never mind the electric bill.

2003: Say the magic buzzword that activates the voice controlled home
automation system.
You say: "Room light on".
Controller asks: "Which room"?
You say: "Can't you figure out which room I'm in"?
Controller says: "I do not understand the command".
You snarl: "Bedroom"
Controller asks: "Bright, reading, soft, or motion controlled"?
You say: "Bright" and the lights turn on.
You say (quietly): "Worthless piece of disgusting junk..."
Controller says: "I do not understand the command".
Sound of breaking glass as something hits the LCD display.

2013: Walk into dark room and try to find your tablet computer. Login
with biometric authentication and password. On the 4th try, the
tablet finally recognizes your hung over, unshaven, and unkempt
appearance. Wait while a dozen applications insist on updating
themselves immediately. Find the WeMo light switch app among the
dozen new games the kids have installed. Push the relevant light
switch button. Nothing happens. Try again. Still nothing. Pause
watching Netflix Super-HD movie to recover bandwidth. Try again.
Light comes on.

This is progress?

And all I want is a switch that will turn the kitchen light on and off,
from about 18 ft away without, and I don't want to add wiring.
I want it to act like what normally is called a 3* way switch.
I want the existing kitchen switch to at least look about the same,
being aware that the wiring/components may be different.
I would like it to drive a CFL bulb.
This model has a huge presence on the web,
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Chamberlai...h-Set/17101311

I says 500 watt incandescent lighting only. I see writings about these
types of receivers needing some leakage current, I'm tempted to get one
and try it.
At this point I have remote switch overload.

Thanks all, Mikek


*Searching the net I see, 2 way switch and 3 way switch are often used
to describe the same thing

The device i mentioned needs no added wiring, and does not need a
hole in the wall for the switch,which is a flat panel with a rocker-type
switch.

On 11/25/2013 9:03 PM, Robert Baer wrote:

The device i mentioned needs no added wiring, and does not need a
hole in the wall for the switch,which is a flat panel with a rocker-type
switch.


Sounds like an opportunity for some enterprising engineer !

Ya up to the challenge ?

In article ,
dave wrote:

On 11/24/2013 03:31 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
X10 has been around 35 years. It's cheap, and it works.

I've been to their warehouse in North Las Vegas. They are busy. Dr. Bill
Wattenburg invented the communications over powerline methods they use.

Hmm. http://www.smarthomeusa.com/info/x10story/

Isaac

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:29:40 -0600, amdx wrote:

And all I want is a switch that will turn the kitchen light on and
off, from about 18 ft away without, and I don't want to add wiring.
I want it to act like what normally is called a 3* way switch.

No problem. Find about 50ft of kite string. Drill a hole in the wall
switch lever. Replace the two 6-32 screws holding the switch plate
with eye hooks. Screw another eye hook into the wall 18ft away. Run
the string in a loop, with a weight to maintain tension. Tie the ends
to the hole in the switch lever. Pull on one string, and the switch
turns on. Pull on the other string, and the switch turns off. Just
like a 3-way switch.

Who needs technology anyway?

I want the existing kitchen switch to at least look about the same,
being aware that the wiring/components may be different.

Well, nobody will notice the extra hole and string. However, if want
to hide the mechanism, I fishing line should be sufficiently strong
and transparent.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/24/2013 10:51 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"amdx" wrote in message ...
On 11/24/2013 7:51 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

You might want to look at X10 modules. X10 has two-way switches.

It's not so much whether a switch system will work with CFLs,
but whether CFLs will work with switch systems. Most X10
modules can switch CFLs, and dim some models.

I checked my CFL, it says "Not Dimable"

I'll have to make this clear... Whether the module will turn a CFL on
and off has nothing to do with whether the CFL is dimmable.

While accurate, that may create the wrong impression that it's
ok to use a non dim-able CFL with a module that includes the
dimming function.

If the module includes a dimming function and dims
(or attempts to) a CFL that is not dim-able, you
will likely burn out the CFL.

Ed

On 11/26/2013 12:09 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:29:40 -0600, amdx wrote:

And all I want is a switch that will turn the kitchen light on and
off, from about 18 ft away without, and I don't want to add wiring.
I want it to act like what normally is called a 3* way switch.

No problem. Find about 50ft of kite string. Drill a hole in the wall
switch lever. Replace the two 6-32 screws holding the switch plate
with eye hooks. Screw another eye hook into the wall 18ft away. Run
the string in a loop, with a weight to maintain tension. Tie the ends
to the hole in the switch lever. Pull on one string, and the switch
turns on. Pull on the other string, and the switch turns off. Just
like a 3-way switch.

Who needs technology anyway?

I want the existing kitchen switch to at least look about the same,
being aware that the wiring/components may be different.

Well, nobody will notice the extra hole and string. However, if want
to hide the mechanism, I fishing line should be sufficiently strong
and transparent.

That"s it, the string kept breaking, I'll change to fish line, much
stronger.

Thanks, Mikek

On 11/24/2013 9:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:58:29 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 11/24/2013 1:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 13:33:02 -0600, amdx wrote:

I want the new switch and
it's remote to work as a *THREE way switch, meaning, I can turn the
light on or off from the other switch no matter what position the first
is in. Also, I just recalled this this already is a three way circuit,
one switch is hidden behind the refrigerator.

Z-wave 3 way switch
http://www.smarthome.com/59464/GE-45614-Z-Wave-3-Way-On-Off-Kit/p.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vguVa58PGI

Same warning, "The device controlled by this Z-Wave switch must not
exceed 600 watts (Incandescent); 15 Amps, 1800W (Resistive);
or ½ HP (Motor)."
I found lots of remote controls (tv type) but not a normal wall mount
flip switch.

Did you look at the above Smarthome URL? It's a wall mount switch.
All Z-wave saves you in this case is having to run an extra wire
between switches to make it 3-way.

I'm using a CFL, until I change it.
Mikek

It would be VERY helpful if you would supply a list of requirements
and constraints for your project.

Sorry, I think I needed educating before I knew what the requirements
and constraints of my project were!
I consider myself appropriately chastised.
But, I'll probably make the same mistake again. :-/

Mikek

amdx wrote:

That"s it, the string kept breaking, I'll change to fish line, much
stronger.


There's always logging chain, for longer runs.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:32:09 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 11/24/2013 9:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:58:29 -0600, amdx wrote:

Same warning, "The device controlled by this Z-Wave switch must not
exceed 600 watts (Incandescent); 15 Amps, 1800W (Resistive);
or ½ HP (Motor)."

I just noticed that I have several motion detector wall switches on
the shelf. Their maximum ratings are identical to the above Z-Wave
switch. I suspect that this may be a standard rating for triac
controlled electrical switches. The incandescent rating is probably
limited by the filament inrush current. The 15A (1800 watts) by the
code limit for a wall switch electrical circuit. No clue on the 1/2
HP motor. As I previously mumbled, if you need more switching
capability, I suggest using a contactor (relay).

I just realized why you crossposted to both sci.electronics.design and
sci.electronics.repair. If take the advice of those in design, and it
doesn't work, the readers of repair can be expected to fix the damage.
I'm not sure if that actually works, but it's worth trying.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/27/2013 10:23 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:32:09 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 11/24/2013 9:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:58:29 -0600, amdx wrote:

Same warning, "The device controlled by this Z-Wave switch must not
exceed 600 watts (Incandescent); 15 Amps, 1800W (Resistive);
or ½ HP (Motor)."

I just noticed that I have several motion detector wall switches on
the shelf. Their maximum ratings are identical to the above Z-Wave
switch. I suspect that this may be a standard rating for triac
controlled electrical switches. The incandescent rating is probably
limited by the filament inrush current. The 15A (1800 watts) by the
code limit for a wall switch electrical circuit. No clue on the 1/2
HP motor. As I previously mumbled, if you need more switching
capability, I suggest using a contactor (relay).

I just realized why you crossposted to both sci.electronics.design and
sci.electronics.repair. If take the advice of those in design, and it
doesn't work, the readers of repair can be expected to fix the damage.
I'm not sure if that actually works, but it's worth trying.

Chuckle, chuckle.
Mikek :-)

PS. All I'm switching is a 22 watt CFL. One light (only) on the circuit.
The olden days 100 Watt.
Now 22 watt.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:52:56 -0600, amdx wrote:

Chuckle, chuckle.
Mikek :-)

I have a difficult time being serious since I've been doing everything
EXCEPT electronics for that past 3 weeks. For your amusement:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/antennas/dish-move-project/
I'm getting too old for such things.

PS. All I'm switching is a 22 watt CFL. One light (only) on the circuit.
The olden days 100 Watt.
Now 22 watt.

That's in eco-watts, where the power consumption, phase angle, and
luminous output are somehow related to carbon credits and promotional
advertising budget.

The problem with CFL lamps is that the power factor on most (not all)
is about 0.5. That means your 22 watt CFL bulb is actually consuming
44 VA. Your wiring isn't going to overheat if you max out the rated
wattage with:
1500 watts / 22 watts = 68 CFL lamps
but the peak current will greatly exeed the current rating of the
light switch. With a PF of 0.5, you're stuck with only 34 CFL 22 watt
lamps. If you have a Kill-a-Watt meter (about $28), you can measure
the PF, watts, VA, and operating costs directly.

I have an EcoSmart 150 watt (42 eco-watts) CFL bulb hanging in the
shop controlled by a motion detector wall switch that probably uses a
triac. The maximum ratings are identical to your proposed 3-way
electronic switch. It's been running for about 1.5 years and has so
far failed to blow the circuit breaker, incinerate the switch, or burn
the house to the ground. Please note that this is a rather
substantial endoresement as most devices do not survive very long when
I'm involved.

As long as you don't try to switch more than 34 CFL 22 watt lights,
the switch should work.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558