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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#41
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leaving conductors exposed
On Dec 15, 6:37*pm, mike wrote:
lsmartino wrote: On 12 dic, 23:51, mike wrote: Phil Allison wrote: "mike" Ok, but how did it make it past the "fire hazard" category. ** The design of the transformer prevents any fire or electrocution hazard. It's surely a source of ignition when you knock it over onto a pair of scissors on the desk. ** *Shorting the secondary winding is one of the tests carried out when certifying a transformer as "class 2" or double insulated. The unit must not overheat or burn to the extent that primary and secondary circuits can become fused. Most often this is achieved by adding a thermal fuse to the primary circuit that will open if the winding temp reaches a point that could damage the insulation used to make the tranny - * about 120C in most examples. Some older designs used fireproof insulation between the primary and secondary and the winding were contained on separate halves of a plastic bobbin. Such a tranny could smoke and burn but still not present an electrocution hazard. .... *Phil Ok, but what about the spark that happens when you knock it over while refilling your butane torch? *Or when you just cleaned a part with alcohol. *Dumb design!!! Safety design is a LOT more than just the obvious. There'd be a lot fewer houses burned to the ground if only engineers thought more about how their products are used and the hazards caused by confluence of circumstance. Did I mention...DUMB DESIGN!! But you bought a chinese no name "design" lamp, with chinese construction "quality" and chinese design "aspect" and you pretend that this lamp should be properly designed??? I bet you that the creator of that "jewel" isn t even an engineer. If you don t fell comfortable with the lamp, and I wouldn t BTW, just trash it. Well... I didn't buy it. The issue is not about the buyer's ability to determine the safety of a Chinese lamp. The issue is about the certification agencies who have the device in their lab for qualification. Their JOB is to protect me from harm. They should not have qualified such a device. You may feel otherwise, that's your right.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Take into account the fact that fake electrical chinese products almost always have fake certification labels. I have seen countless of useless power strip with fake UL labels, or badly constructed computer cases with a fake CE seal stamped over the chassis. I have seen even fake circuit breakers made in China with UL marks, so donīt assume that a poor quality electrical chinese product has been properly inspected just because it bears a UL or CE label. |
#42
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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leaving conductors exposed
On Dec 15, 6:52*pm, mike wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote: As to the risk here, I routinely touch both clips of the 1-amp 12 volt battery charger I have. I havent' done that with the 8 amp charger, probably because the phrase "8 amp" scares me, but it shoudln't and tomorrow I will, *I'll even find some alcohol to spark in. *If I don't post back, it means my house burned down and took my computer and me with it. It only takes a few milliamps to kill you. Assuming the current has a path to a vital organ, like the heart. It takes about 100mA through the heart to kill you. Guys, a battery charger is not a constant-current device! It provides only the current determined by its charging voltage (which I assume starts at around 14V) and your skin resistance, which even when your hands are wet, is no lower than a few thousand ohms. YOU CANNOT BE ELCTROCUTED BY THE OUTPUT OF A CAR-BATTERY CHARGER. That statement suggests a misguided interpretation of "certainty". I doubt you've considered ALL possibilities. "unlikely" might be a better word than "cannot" for use in that sentence.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Can you illustrate a real life situation where a 12V battery electrocutes a human being? I posted a skin resistance table that makes that possibility higly unlikely. |
#43
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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leaving conductors exposed
On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 05:52:33 -0800, the renowned "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: As to the risk here, I routinely touch both clips of the 1-amp 12 volt battery charger I have. I havent' done that with the 8 amp charger, probably because the phrase "8 amp" scares me, but it shoudln't and tomorrow I will, I'll even find some alcohol to spark in. If I don't post back, it means my house burned down and took my computer and me with it. It only takes a few milliamps to kill you. Assuming the current has a path to a vital organ, like the heart. It takes about 100mA through the heart to kill you. Guys, a battery charger is not a constant-current device! It provides only the current determined by its charging voltage (which I assume starts at around 14V) and your skin resistance, which even when your hands are wet, is no lower than a few thousand ohms. YOU CANNOT BE ELCTROCUTED BY THE OUTPUT OF A CAR-BATTERY CHARGER. Unless it is defective. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
#44
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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leaving conductors exposed
Maybe you're not familiar with the expression.. Never Say Never.
Being a repair newsgroup, many folks have likely encountered damaged battery chargers, and not knowing every possible fault, including improper previous repairs, one never knows if an electrical device has a fatal fault or not until it's been examined and tested. Nearly every electronic equipment service manual printed in the last 40 years (at least), includes a method to test line operated equipment for hazardous leakage levels that can be fatal. Safe levels of leakage for line operated equipment fall within the uA microamp range.. that's Less than a mA milliamp. I believe that actual current threshold determined to be hazardous is about 35mA, across the heart, which can interrupt normal heart rythyms. So, with a small voltage applied to fingers of one hand with the other hand grounded, the additional skin resistance of the arms will decrease the possibility of a fatal shock. That same voltage, applied to points near the heart will increase the possibility of a fatal shock. By following standard safe practices, one can be confident that they are working safely.. one hand in pocket, standing on dry, insulated material, good lighting, concentrating on what you're doing with no distractions or practical jokers around.. and one of my own personal habits which is to not have anyone standing behind you. You can't see or predict that person's movements, so tell 'em to move where you can see them. FWIW, a number of years ago there was a safety recall of some Dewalt cordless power tool battery chargers (not a car battery charger), because one of the battery terminals was not isolated from the AC line (by poor design). That model definitely presented a deadly fault, so don't always expect that new items are perfectly safe, either. -- Cheers, WB .............. "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message ... It takes about 100mA through the heart to kill you. Guys, a battery charger is not a constant-current device! It provides only the current determined by its charging voltage (which I assume starts at around 14V) and your skin resistance, which even when your hands are wet, is no lower than a few thousand ohms. YOU CANNOT BE ELCTROCUTED BY THE OUTPUT OF A CAR-BATTERY CHARGER. |
#45
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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leaving conductors exposed
Maybe you're not familiar with the expression.. Never Say Never.
We were not talking about defective equipment. Yes, OBVIOUSLY, defective products can electrocute you. And it's good sense not to do things that might expose you to equipment faults. Many years back I had a GE toast-r-oven repaired, and the tech didn't check the leakage. When I accidentally touched the toaster and the faucet, I got a shock. Removing the metal side panel showed that a bare wire was touching the metal. |
#46
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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leaving conductors exposed
In article ,
William Sommerwerck wrote: Many years back I had a GE toast-r-oven repaired, and the tech didn't check the leakage. When I accidentally touched the toaster and the faucet, I got a shock. Removing the metal side panel showed that a bare wire was touching the metal. I've never quite understood why such things aren't grounded in the US? Or perhaps they are now? -- *A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#47
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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leaving conductors exposed
Many years back I had a GE toast-r-oven repaired, and
the tech didn't check the leakage. When I accidentally touched the toaster and the faucet, I got a shock. Removing the metal side panel showed that a bare wire was touching the metal. I've never quite understood why such things aren't grounded in the US? Or perhaps they are now? The product was purchased 35 years ago. Household appliances generally did not have chassis grounds. |
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