I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe

"Joe"

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.


** You can expect a no-brand electro operating in an environment of 65
degrees C to fail after 16,000 hours.

The answer is to turn all such devices off at the power point.



..... Phil

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:37:29 -0800, (Joe) wrote:

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7.

Heat kills electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic life calculators:
http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculators.aspx
http://www.cde.com/calc/
http://www.niccomp.com/Products/General/Alumlyticlifeexpect.pdf
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6588368.html
http://powerelectronics.com/images/archive/ElectrolyticCap.pdf

For every 10C increase in temperature, the lifetime is cut roughly in
half. If the box runs hot, the caps won't last very long, especially
if they're running at the bitter edge of their voltage rating, and
have a high ripple current (common in power supply filter caps).

Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann"


Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.


** Electros do not lose capacitance until the ESR value has risen
dramatically.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Eg;

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm


...... Phil

On 14/03/2010 02:37, Joe wrote:

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe

Electrolytic caps have always been a failure point on anything switched
on all the time: a few years ago replacing them in printers at fire
stations was a regular task for me and my colleagues. As they were used
for callouts, these printers were on 24x7x365.

This is of course made worse by capacitor plague these days:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I'm just about to replace a dodgy cap in my washing machine's control
board: the machine has been showing odd behaviour for a while, and
there's a 680uf 10v that is visibly bulging. The mchine isn't on all the
time, but the power switch is a soft on-off, so some parts must be
powerud up whenever it is plugged in. I'd say it's about 3 years old.

Failure of electrolytic caps in fairly new equipment is nothing new, and has
actually become common as manufacurers try using cheaper components to
attain the highest profits.

The throwaway society has been in development for decades. Every year
products are made to new lower quality standards, with the intended effect
of lowering everyone's expectations of any reliability or quality, IMO.

But typical shoppers just love those $30 DVD players, and can't get enough
of 'em.

It seems that the counterfeit electrolyte story will never go away, as
someone always has to mention it almost any time capacitors are discussed.

Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are minimumally
acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate specifications,
the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic gear,
is probably about the average lifetime before repair or replacement is
required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably going to
be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group might get into
class action, but probably not many would call their elected representatives
or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200 item that fails to work in a
year.
Then again, the retailer or manufacturer might just say that the buyer
should've bought the extended warranty.

The consumer is always the one that gets to find out how long a product will
last.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Joe" wrote in message
...
I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe

Joe wrote:

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe
They call that market research! Built in obsolescence.

"Joe" wrote in message
...
I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the
power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to
analog
converter box for my old TV. Son of a ... it too failed at about the 22
month mark. I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? About the only
similarity in use between these two boxes is that they both are on
"stand-by" power 24-7. Other than that, I use the converter a lot more
than the DVD player.

--- Joe



"Wild_Bill" wrote in message
...
Failure of electrolytic caps in fairly new equipment is nothing new, and
has actually become common as manufacurers try using cheaper components to
attain the highest profits.

The throwaway society has been in development for decades. Every year
products are made to new lower quality standards, with the intended effect
of lowering everyone's expectations of any reliability or quality, IMO.

But typical shoppers just love those $30 DVD players, and can't get enough
of 'em.

It seems that the counterfeit electrolyte story will never go away, as
someone always has to mention it almost any time capacitors are discussed.

Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are
minimumally acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate specifications,
the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic
gear, is probably about the average lifetime before repair or replacement
is required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably going
to be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group might get
into class action, but probably not many would call their elected
representatives or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200 item that
fails to work in a year.
Then again, the retailer or manufacturer might just say that the buyer
should've bought the extended warranty.

The consumer is always the one that gets to find out how long a product
will last.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............



100% agrrement on everything everyone has said. It's just par for the
course, I'm afraid. I replace probably 5 - 10 electrolytics in switchmode
power supplies every week. As others have said, it's not that there are not
caps adequately rated for the job - I use them as replacements. It's just
that a 105 degree low ESR cap with a 30% voltage margin, is a lot more
expensive than an 80 degree bog standard type, with a 5% voltage margin, so
the manufacturers use the cheapest one that will get them through the
warranty period. It's a consumer driven thing really. If you want a $30
no-name Walmart DVD player, then the people who make them for Walmart, are
going to have to use the cheapest components they can find. The fact that
the OP's machine was a Philips, that might be considered a 'good' name, no
longer holds water either. For some time now, Philips gear has not had the
same quality 'hallmark' as it did here in Europe, as little as 10 years ago
....

Arfa

Wild_Bill wrote:
Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are
minimumally acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate
specifications, the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I started noticing a lot of El Cheapie DVD players failing
*real* quick. ALARMINGLY so! Since they were "disposable",
I never thought much of it.

One day took one apart. 6.3V caps on a 10V (?) line...

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic
gear, is probably about the average lifetime before repair or
replacement is required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably
going to be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group
might get into class action, but probably not many would call their
elected representatives or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200
item that fails to work in a year.

Class action lawsuits don't usually amount to much -- besides
a chance for some lawyer to make a tidy sum by doing nothing.
Wasn't Gateway sued over one (all?) of their ($$$K) plasma sets
a few years ago?

D Yuniskis wrote:
Wild_Bill wrote:
Manufacturers choose to build equipment with capacitors that are
minimumally acceptable for the circuits the caps are used in.
It's not that there aren't any quality caps with adequate
specifications, the problem is that better quality caps cost more.

I started noticing a lot of El Cheapie DVD players failing
*real* quick. ALARMINGLY so! Since they were "disposable",
I never thought much of it.

One day took one apart. 6.3V caps on a 10V (?) line...

I think about 2 years of proper operation for new consumer electronic
gear, is probably about the average lifetime before repair or
replacement is required.

The higher priced consumer goods (big plasma TVs, etc) are probably
going to be a bit more reliable since a large outraged consumer group
might get into class action, but probably not many would call their
elected representatives or a consumer watchdog group for a $40 to $200
item that fails to work in a year.

Class action lawsuits don't usually amount to much -- besides
a chance for some lawyer to make a tidy sum by doing nothing.
Wasn't Gateway sued over one (all?) of their ($$$K) plasma sets
a few years ago?


Its a different world now. 25 years ago brand names meant something and
manufacturers would want to protect there reputation.

These days, much of the cheap stuff is no name junk that you would be
lucky to get parts or manuals for if at all. they really don't care as
long as it works out of the box. So what if the name you never heard of
is tarnished? they will just get a new name and go on and sell millions
at your favorite discount store and wallmart.

There may be customer expectations on lifetime, but other than the
factory warranty there is no implied life expectations.

There is no money in fixing this junk unless your doing it out of your
house and selling it on craigs list as a hobby.

bob

On Mar 13, 7:37*pm, (Joe) wrote:

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well before the problem occurred, I had come across a description of the
failure and how to fix it by replacing a particular capacitor on the power
supply board.

It turns out that the particular capacitor supposedly would likely be
leaking some electrolyte or be bulging - it was doing neither.

When I opened up the player and left it turned on for a few minutes, that
particular capacitor became very much hotter than any other capacitor, so
I replaced it, and the player is still working now, some two years later.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Digital Stream DTX9900 digital to analog
converter box for my old TV. *Son of a ... *it too failed at about the 22
month mark. *I opened up the case, and there it was - a bulging capacitor
on the power supply board.

I replaced that capacitor a couple of weeks ago, and the converter has
since been working.

Anybody else noticed any coincidences like these? *

I think you caught it early, before it had a chance to build up enough
pressure to leak or bulge. But at www.BadCaps.net, the experts
mention that some caps go bad without ever bulging or leaking,
although I've seen only one like that, in my 33-year-old Japanese TV
that's needed only two caps replaced. It's connected to an RCA
converter box that developed 3-4 bulging caps in less than 23 months.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:19:02 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann"
Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.

** Electros do not lose capacitance until the ESR value has risen
dramatically.

Read what I wrote. I said that when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly. When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance. I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR
cazapitors but not all of them. ESR increase is a much better
indication of impending failure than cazapitance loss.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann"
"Phil Allison"

"Jeff Liebermann"
Note that this is for a perfectly normal electrolytic capacitor and
not the defective bulging variety caused by counterfeit electrolyte.
When a normal cap fails, it doesn't bulge. However, it does loose
capacitance and ESR rather rapidly. End-o-life is considered a 20%
drop in capacitance.

** Electros do not lose capacitance until the ESR value has risen
dramatically.

Read what I wrote.


** I did and it was misleading.

So I improved it for you.


I said that ..


** There would be no need for you to completely re-write it if it was OK
the first time.

when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly.

** Nonsense - bulging at the end of life in a hot environment is 100%
NORMAL for modern electros.


When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance.

** Fraid the ESR would have gone so high the electro cap would not be doing
its job long before that.


I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR cazapitors but not
all of them.

** Purely academic to even measure it.


ESR increase is a much better indication of impending failure than
cazapitance loss.

** Goody - this it what you missed previously.


This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

** Smug prick.


http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).

** Bob designed the project single handed and " Electronics Australia "
magazine published it - that meant it was available for any kit supplier
to market as a kit. However the programmed uP was available only from Bob.

Dick Smith Electronics was one of four retailers in Australia that did a kit
and included the uP - one of them did not.

So the unit is the " Bob Parker ESR meter" or "Electronics Australia ESR
meter".



..... Phil

Hi!

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months
shy of 2 years, it failed

This sort of thing is completely inexcusable. I suppose it's brought on by
cost, or at least I hope so, given how many years have gone by since the
electrolytic plague took place. This computer (see the sig) is running on
all of its original electrolytics, as is the Deskpro EN a few places down
and many other devices. The EN runs some of its 'lytics a little bit warm to
the touch, but it's still going. It runs 24/7.

This machine also spends a large amount of time powered on, and was used as
a server prior to falling into my possession sometime in 2002.

I tried to save a 16-port SMC ethernet switch after it started acting up.
One of the electrolytics was blown up, but a replacement did not restore
normal operation. My guess is that damage to the other circuitry had taken
place.

So it *can* be done. I suppose the only reason it doesn't always work out is
due to cost and the odd defective unit.

William
--
Brought to you by an IBM PS/2 9585-0XF, "Defiant"
AMD 486-133/64MB/2GB S/N 23HN457

Jeff Liebermann wrote in
:


I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).




I love my DSE ESR meter.

Very useful,great price,fun to build.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

"William R. Walsh" m
wrote in message ...
Hi!

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months
shy of 2 years, it failed

This sort of thing is completely inexcusable. I suppose it's brought on by
cost, or at least I hope so, given how many years have gone by since the
electrolytic plague took place. This computer (see the sig) is running on
all of its original electrolytics, as is the Deskpro EN a few places down
and many other devices. The EN runs some of its 'lytics a little bit warm
to
the touch, but it's still going. It runs 24/7.

This machine also spends a large amount of time powered on, and was used
as
a server prior to falling into my possession sometime in 2002.

I tried to save a 16-port SMC ethernet switch after it started acting up.
One of the electrolytics was blown up, but a replacement did not restore
normal operation. My guess is that damage to the other circuitry had taken
place.

So it *can* be done. I suppose the only reason it doesn't always work out
is
due to cost and the odd defective unit.


William


Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail for
regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the resulting
hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low output. This
causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in an effort to restore
the rail to the correct value. As all the other rails are tightly
magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a consequence of them all sharing
the same transformer core, the end result is that the 3.3v and 5v rails can
go sky-high, causing a trail of catastrophic damage to various LSIs in the
equipment.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily"

Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail for
regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the
resulting hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low
output. This causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in an
effort to restore the rail to the correct value. As all the other rails
are tightly magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a consequence of them
all sharing the same transformer core, the end result is that the 3.3v and
5v rails can go sky-high, causing a trail of catastrophic damage to
various LSIs in the equipment.


** Over-voltage protection is essential for devices with such SMPSs - a
sacrificial zener bridging the regulated voltage will do the job for a
single output supply.

Multiple output supplies need something a bit more complex that monitors a
sum off all the DC outputs and reacts to any significant increase.

Many cheap and some expensive products do not have anything.



...... Phil

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:30:29 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

Read what I wrote.

** I did and it was misleading.
So I improved it for you.

Ummm... thanks. It's not often that I get to engage in a debate where
both sides basically agree.

I said that ..

** There would be no need for you to completely re-write it if it was OK
the first time.

Fine. Next time I reply to one of your asterisk infested rants, I'll
use words with fewer syllables and shorter sentences in the vain hope
that you might find them more digestible.

when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly.

** Nonsense - bulging at the end of life in a hot environment is 100%
NORMAL for modern electros.

I'm staring at a 20 year old Motorola MSF5000 CLB SSCB controller
board with 5 assorted electrolytic cazapitors. Every single one of
them failed with an unusually high ESR measurement. One leaked but
none bulged. I see the same thing in switchers and motherboards. Some
caps also blow the rubber plug out the bottom instead of bulging the
case.

Actually, you may be correct. Self-destruction and bulging just might
be considered normal for "modern" electrolytic cazapitors, but not the
older caps.

When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance.

** Fraid the ESR would have gone so high the electro cap would not be doing
its job long before that.

Correct. The high ESR (equivalent series resistance) is especially
bad in cazapitors that have a high ripple current, such as in power
supplies. The increased internal resistance times the current squared
causes considerable self heating.

The office next to me does home energy calculations and tomography.
They have a rather expensive FLIR IR camera. I've borrowed it a few
times to look at boards and power supplies looking for hot spots. It's
totally wonderful and easily shows hot caps, chips, etc. Some
examples:
http://www.nationalinfrared.com/image_browser.php

I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR cazapitors but not
all of them.

** Purely academic to even measure it.

Yep. However, I'm lazy. If the ESR tester says it's bad, I usually
don't bother also measuring the cazapitance. Next time I replace some
caps, I'll take some measurements.

ESR increase is a much better indication of impending failure than
cazapitance loss.

** Goody - this it what you missed previously.

Well, ok. I'll admit that your statement is a bit clearer. Please
don't let it go to your head.

This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

** Smug prick.

Damn right. I'm also arrogant, self centered, self righteous,
egotistical, and believe the world revolves around me. One has to be
like that to debate anything with you.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).

** Bob designed the project single handed and " Electronics Australia "
magazine published it - that meant it was available for any kit supplier
to market as a kit. However the programmed uP was available only from Bob.

Dick Smith Electronics was one of four retailers in Australia that did a kit
and included the uP - one of them did not.

So the unit is the " Bob Parker ESR meter" or "Electronics Australia ESR
meter".

Ummm... thanks. Actually, I lied. The front of mine says: "ESR and
Low-Ohms Meter". No Dick Smith anywhere in sight. I forgot if I
bought it from Dick Smith or someone else. I think it came via
Canada.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann"
"Phil Allison"

Read what I wrote.

** I did and it was misleading.
So I improved it for you.

Ummm... thanks.


** **** you.


I said that ..

** There would be no need for you to completely re-write it if it was OK
the first time.

Fine.

** So the fool agrees he had to re-write his piece to cover up the earlier
errors.


when *NORMAL* cazapitors fail they
don't bulge but do have their ESR increase rather rapidly.

** Nonsense - bulging at the end of life in a hot environment is 100%
NORMAL for modern electros.

I'm staring at a 20 year old Motorola

** 20 years old is not "modern ".

Actually, you may be correct. Self-destruction and bulging just might
be considered normal for "modern" electrolytic cazapitors, but not the
older caps.

** Goody - one for me.


When the
basic tolerance on the cazapitor is -20%/+80%, an additional -20% loss
in cazapitance could easily result in a measured value of 60% of the
rated cazapitance.

** Fraid the ESR would have gone so high the electro cap would not be
doing
its job long before that.

Correct.

** Goody - another one.


I've seen some loss of cazapitance with high ESR cazapitors but not
all of them.

** Purely academic to even measure it.

Yep.

** Goody - another one.


ESR increase is a much better indication of impending failure than
cazapitance loss.

** Goody - this it what you missed previously.

Well, ok. I'll admit that your statement is a bit clearer. Please
don't let it go to your head.

** Goody - another one.


This is why service techs use ESR meters to find bad and failing electro
caps and not capacitance meters.

Yeah, yeah...

** Smug prick.

Damn right. I'm also arrogant, self centered, self righteous,
egotistical, and believe the world revolves around me.


** Goody - another one.



http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm

I bought the Dick Smith ESR tester designed by Bob Parker. Really
nice and handy (as long as I remember to discharge the cap before
testing).

** Bob designed the project single handed and " Electronics Australia "
magazine published it - that meant it was available for any kit supplier
to market as a kit. However the programmed uP was available only from
Bob.

Dick Smith Electronics was one of four retailers in Australia that did a
kit
and included the uP - one of them did not.

So the unit is the " Bob Parker ESR meter" or "Electronics Australia ESR
meter".

Ummm... thanks. Actually, I lied.


** Goody - yet another one.

Mr. Liebermann last seen crashing in flames over enemy lines ......



...... Phil

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:37:29 -0800, (Joe) wrote:

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months shy
of 2 years, it failed - having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

Well, I'm not happy to hear this because I have their DVDR 6765 (or
some 4 digit number beginning with 6) the latest one they've sold and
it's nearing two years of age.

There's only one other model** out there with a hard drive, by another
company. and I hear it has fewer features.

This one could be better too, and they've had time to upgrade the
firmware, which is possible, but haven't done so. (But it still works
pretty easily and records DVDs or 160 hours on the harddrive, and can
copy from one to the other.)

**Mine is made for OTA or cable. Most such things seem to be made for
people with only cable or satellite, but even then I guess there
aren't many models suitable for a given signal supplier.

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 01:19:31 -0400, mm
wrote:

having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

So I forgot to ask, what is the well-known problem, and can you tell
by looking which capacitor in the power supply?

If you didn't figure it out by looking, how did you find it?

I can't always do much, but I can replace a power supply cap.

Well, I'm not happy to hear this because I have their DVDR 6765 (or
some 4 digit number beginning with 6) the latest one they've sold and
it's nearing two years of age.

In article , mm
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 01:19:31 -0400, mm
wrote:

having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

So I forgot to ask, what is the well-known problem, and can you tell
by looking which capacitor in the power supply?

If you didn't figure it out by looking, how did you find it?

I can't always do much, but I can replace a power supply cap.

Well, I'm not happy to hear this because I have their DVDR 6765 (or
some 4 digit number beginning with 6) the latest one they've sold and
it's nearing two years of age.

The well-known problem was with the DVP 642. I found the info on the web site

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/philips_dvp642/

An article there gave the actual part number which is printed on the
circuit board for that particular capacitor.

The URL, above, also has info on other Philips DVD players. Have a look.

--- Joe

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily"

Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail for
regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the
resulting hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low
output. This causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in an
effort to restore the rail to the correct value. As all the other rails
are tightly magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a consequence of them
all sharing the same transformer core, the end result is that the 3.3v
and 5v rails can go sky-high, causing a trail of catastrophic damage to
various LSIs in the equipment.


** Over-voltage protection is essential for devices with such SMPSs - a
sacrificial zener bridging the regulated voltage will do the job for a
single output supply.

Multiple output supplies need something a bit more complex that monitors a
sum off all the DC outputs and reacts to any significant increase.

Many cheap and some expensive products do not have anything.



..... Phil



Yes, agreed. Most LCD TV switchers have sophisticated shutdown circuitry for
the main control IC, and sometimes for the pfc supply as well. These
circuits measure under and over voltage, as well as over-current conditions,
and can represent a fault-finding nightmare, as you try to over-ride them
with the supply in isolation from the TV, to see which supply or protection
circuit, is causing the shutdown ...

But as you say, most cheapo switchers as found in DVD players and home
cinemas and the like, have absolutely nothing south of the rectifier.

Arfa

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 01:19:31 -0400, mm
wrote:

having symptoms of a well-known problem with a
certain capacitor in the power supply.

So I forgot to ask, what is the well-known problem, and can you tell
by looking which capacitor in the power supply?

If you didn't figure it out by looking, how did you find it?

I can't always do much, but I can replace a power supply cap.

Well, I'm not happy to hear this because I have their DVDR 6765 (or
some 4 digit number beginning with 6) the latest one they've sold and
it's nearing two years of age.


I don't know specifically with your model, but the most common problems
caused by bad electrolytics in items like this are no or intermittent
operation, a failure to come out of standby, a failure of the standby supply
to come up if the unit has been fully off-power, pattern on the screen of
the display, or random error messages on the screen like "no signal being
received" or some such.

If there is no physical evidence of a bad cap, such as bulging, leaking, or
a popped bung, then the best (and only, in my opinion) way of locating bad
or 'on their way' caps, is with an ESR meter. One of these will locate 99%
of bad caps without even having to remove them from the board, and is worth
its weight in gold to a commercial repairer. In saying that, measuring ESR
is a bit of a black art in terms of interpreting the readings the meter
gives you, but the digital types like Bob Parker's (now remodeled to the
"Blue ESR Meter" - see Anatek Corporation's website) make this
interpretation a whole bunch easier. Secondary-side caps are the most common
for giving a physically visible clue, and the worst offenders are those
mounted close to a heatsink. Primary-side troublemakers are usually
physically small low-value types - up to about 47uF - and are almost always
mounted close to a heatsink. Dead supply with no blown fuses, is the typical
symptom from these.

The best thing that you can do to prolongue the life of any power supplies
in DVD players or HC units, is to make sure that they are not locked up in a
cabinet with poor airflow, and that they are on the bottom of any equipment
stack, so that they are not drawing warm air from some unit underneath.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:


"William R. Walsh"
m wrote in message
...
Hi!

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months
shy of 2 years, it failed

This sort of thing is completely inexcusable. I suppose it's brought
on by cost, or at least I hope so, given how many years have gone by
since the electrolytic plague took place. This computer (see the sig)
is running on all of its original electrolytics, as is the Deskpro EN
a few places down and many other devices. The EN runs some of its
'lytics a little bit warm to
the touch, but it's still going. It runs 24/7.

This machine also spends a large amount of time powered on, and was
used as
a server prior to falling into my possession sometime in 2002.

I tried to save a 16-port SMC ethernet switch after it started acting
up. One of the electrolytics was blown up, but a replacement did not
restore normal operation. My guess is that damage to the other
circuitry had taken place.

So it *can* be done. I suppose the only reason it doesn't always work
out is
due to cost and the odd defective unit.


William


Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail
for regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the
resulting hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low
output. This causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in
an effort to restore the rail to the correct value. As all the other
rails are tightly magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a
consequence of them all sharing the same transformer core, the end
result is that the 3.3v and 5v rails can go sky-high, causing a trail
of catastrophic damage to various LSIs in the equipment.

Arfa




The SMPS in TEK 1710/20/30 series TV products would have the cap on the +5V
rail rise in ESR,the supply would drive ALL the other supply rails high,
the +40V would climb to 60v,the HV oscillator xstr would
overdissipate,char the PCB to the point it became conductive,and the supply
would go into "burst" mode. I had to grind out the charred area,fill with
epoxy,and set new eyelets and do track repairs.I also put in a better rated
+5v filter cap,no more problems.

Other techs just replaced the whole PCB.
I was always replacing bad electrolytics on the 1700 monitors.
They typically were installed in racks that kept their temp above "normal".

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Mar 15, 3:14*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"William R. Walsh" m
wrote in ...



Hi!

I bought a Philips DVP 642 DVD player in December 2005, and 2 months
shy of 2 years, it failed

This sort of thing is completely inexcusable. I suppose it's brought on by
cost, or at least I hope so, given how many years have gone by since the
electrolytic plague took place. This computer (see the sig) is running on
all of its original electrolytics, as is the Deskpro EN a few places down
and many other devices. The EN runs some of its 'lytics a little bit warm
to
the touch, but it's still going. It runs 24/7.

This machine also spends a large amount of time powered on, and was used
as
a server prior to falling into my possession sometime in 2002.

I tried to save a 16-port SMC ethernet switch after it started acting up.
One of the electrolytics was blown up, but a replacement did not restore
normal operation. My guess is that damage to the other circuitry had taken
place.

So it *can* be done. I suppose the only reason it doesn't always work out
is
due to cost and the odd defective unit.

William

Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics. If the supply monitors say the 12v rail for
regulation feedback, and the filter cap on that rail goes bad, the resulting
hash and ripple can appear to the sensing circuit as a low output. This
causes the m/s ratio of the chopper drive to open up in an effort to restore
the rail to the correct value. As all the other rails are tightly
magnetically coupled to the bad rail as a consequence of them all sharing
the same transformer core, the end result is that the 3.3v and 5v rails can
go sky-high, causing a trail of catastrophic damage to various LSIs in the
equipment.

Arfa

I've seen this with quite dramatic consequences. 2 years ago a friend
brought me a budget DTT-DVD player which was dead. Opened up,and
several caps had literally exploded, but only one was in the psu. the
others were downstream, on the main/processor pcb. Clearly there had
been some catastrophic voltage rise.

The other week I picked up a DTT set top box. Same thing - lots of
exploded caps, with only the legs still on the pcb. The few remaining
electolytics on the main pcb were bulging.
Needless to say, both these units were promptly scrapped as BER.
The lesson is: when something is acting erratically, don't wait before
changing the caps!
-B

Hi!

Further circuitry damage can often be a consequence of failing smps
secondary-side electrolytics.

Every cap in the switch's SMPS was fine, and the outputs were right on. A
large (filter?) cap on the main board blew its top. It looked like it had
been working up to this for a while. It had been working great up until the
moment it fell off the wagon.

A replacement cap didn't help much, and I sure couldn't complain about six
years of service from a used switch that I paid all of $10 for. I saved the
SMPS for later use and recycled the rest. A new D-Link switch replaced it.
What struck me was how the components have shrunk. The SMC switch had
several large ICs, two of them responsible for switching and one that
appeared to be a sort of processor (for what I have no idea, it was not a
managed switch). There were some artifacts near the processor for RAM and
ROM, probably used to add management functionality?

The D-Link switch is based on a Realtek platform. It runs cooler, performs
just as well and is a simpler design.

William

This looks like a good thread to jump into:

I have a friend that has a Hafler TA-1600. The bass is non-
existent and every thing else is a bit flat/muted. Each
channel has a separate board powered by a common, multi-tap,
dual voltage transformer that outputs ~32 and ~64 VAC with
120 VAC as the primary.

The transformer has two input leads and 12 output leads. One
group of three per board per voltage.

Each board has two power inputs, comprising the above voltages,
that contain three leads each that are Red - Black - Red. Red
to red gives the 32/64 volt for each input, while any red to
black combination gives half of the red to red voltage in that
winding group.

There is not any visible damage to any component.
Each board sounds identical to the other when isolated.
This amp is currently disassembled so that I may work
on each board individually, yet I'm not sure whether
attempting to save the system is actually worth the bother.

With reading all of the electrolytic problems that seem to
be permeating the electronic field, I am seeking information
to a possible fix, and hope that maybe someone here might
actually have some experience with the Hafler TA's and
could point to some resources/give some hints or how to's
with this unit.

Thanks,

Steve

PS: the voltages listed above are measured voltages. The
transformer does not have any specs listed on it.

If the sound is identically bad on both channels, that suggests something
common to both channels, such as the power supply. The possibility that a
coupling cap has suddenly lost value is unlikely, as the same cap would have
to fail on both channels.

I would also look at the /system/ in which the amplifier is installed. The
lack of bass might be due to an interface problem elsewhere.