Hi,

I am looking to setup a BGA rework station (including reballing chip).

I have seen a few options in my price range and was wondering if
anyone here, with BGA experience know of any of these products and how
good each is:

1. http://zhuomao.en.alibaba.com/produc..._ZM_R5860.html

Most expensive product, but designed to do BGA rework and nothing
else. $2000 USD

2. Havnt got a link but I have been told that I can get away with a
preheater, SMD hot air gun, 20x microscope.

If your really good I guess this might work. But I am not an
experienced solder'r and I think I would prob end up cooking the
chips. Good DIY back yard solution. Might get it up and running for
$600 USD

3. http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_rework.html

I think this setup is about $1500 USD.

I mainly want to do motherboards.

Any positive tips greatfully rec'd.

-Al

I know these guys make great irons, and this setup is a peicemeal
approach to BGA rework station in that all the components can be
brought seperately. Hakko is unforuntaly pricey.

There was one more system:

http://www.jovy.avrepair.com/bga_rework/

Al wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am looking to setup a BGA rework station (including reballing chip).

I have seen a few options in my price range and was wondering if
anyone here, with BGA experience know of any of these products and how
good each is:

1.
http://zhuomao.en.alibaba.com/produc...welding_machin
e_ZM_R5860.html

Most expensive product, but designed to do BGA rework and nothing
else. $2000 USD

2. Havnt got a link but I have been told that I can get away with a
preheater, SMD hot air gun, 20x microscope.

If your really good I guess this might work. But I am not an
experienced solder'r and I think I would prob end up cooking the
chips. Good DIY back yard solution. Might get it up and running for
$600 USD

3. http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_rework.html

I think this setup is about $1500 USD.

I mainly want to do motherboards.

Any positive tips greatfully rec'd.

-Al

I know these guys make great irons, and this setup is a peicemeal
approach to BGA rework station in that all the components can be
brought seperately. Hakko is unforuntaly pricey.


How would you know that you have successfully remade every connection?
without the original manufacturer's whole board testing setup

N_Cook wrote:
Al wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am looking to setup a BGA rework station (including reballing chip).

I have seen a few options in my price range and was wondering if
anyone here, with BGA experience know of any of these products and how
good each is:

1.
http://zhuomao.en.alibaba.com/produc...welding_machin
e_ZM_R5860.html

Most expensive product, but designed to do BGA rework and nothing
else. $2000 USD

2. Havnt got a link but I have been told that I can get away with a
preheater, SMD hot air gun, 20x microscope.

If your really good I guess this might work. But I am not an
experienced solder'r and I think I would prob end up cooking the
chips. Good DIY back yard solution. Might get it up and running for
$600 USD

3. http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_rework.html

I think this setup is about $1500 USD.

I mainly want to do motherboards.

Any positive tips greatfully rec'd.

-Al

I know these guys make great irons, and this setup is a peicemeal
approach to BGA rework station in that all the components can be
brought seperately. Hakko is unforuntaly pricey.


How would you know that you have successfully remade every connection?
without the original manufacturer's whole board testing setup

I guess you could ask that question of any of these bottom end
machines that dont have a xray unit.

The CCD Microsope on the side profile lets you see the balls go
molten, which is a help.

I have also heard of people testing the resistance on the datalines -
if they get a bridged joint it shows. But to do this I think you need
schematic.

-Al

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:52:53 -0800 (PST), Al
wrote:

I am looking to setup a BGA rework station (including reballing chip).

All you need is a propane torch, heat gun, IR thermometer, some
aluminum foil to protect the plastic, and substantial nerve. I've
done about 20 assorted laptops this way with about 50% success rate.
Not great but certainly economical.

2. Havnt got a link but I have been told that I can get away with a
preheater, SMD hot air gun, 20x microscope.

Propane torch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oVxGGPdkbc

Heat gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR8L3B3eDr0

Alcohol lamp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zclj4waulAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9NRBLQVP4

Overkill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpywTfVB52g

If your really good I guess this might work.

I'm really bad and evil, but if I'm good, maybe Santa Claus will buy
me a new laptop instead of having to repair broken laptops.

But I am not an
experienced solder'r and I think I would prob end up cooking the
chips.

Look at the people in the above videos. Do they look like qualified
service techs? Learn By Destroying(tm). Like everything else, this
takes practice and control. Even with $1500 worth of equipment,
you're going to destroy some boards before you get it right.

There's also a big difference between BGA rework and what a hot air
soldering station is used for. With the torch method, you're only
interested in reflowing the solder. With the soldering station,
you're interested in removing the chip and replacing it with a new
chip.

Good DIY back yard solution. Might get it up and running for
$600 USD

About $10 for the torch, or $25 for the heat gun.

Any positive tips greatfully rec'd.

Some things I learned the hard way:
1. Don't push on the chips when they're hot. They'll move no matter
how steady you think your hands are.
2. Don't push on the chips with your bare fingers even if you think
the chip has cooled down. I have the blisters to prove that this is a
bad idea.
3. Slopping some liquid flux under the chips before reflowing makes a
huge cloud of concentrated smog and noxious fumes. If you wrap the
board in foil, there's less smog, but it still smells awful.
4. Do this with the board and chip horizontal. If vertical, the BGA
will fall off when the solder melts (oops).
5. Anything worth doing is also worth overdoing. However, that
doesn't work for dinner or BGA reflow. If you smell something buring,
it's either your dinner or your motherboard.
6. Plastic melts at a much lower temperature than solder. Do
something to protect the platic parts.
7. Let the chip and board warm up slowly, and cool down VERY slowly.
If you try to go to fast, you'll get a cold solder connection, warped
board, or both.

I know these guys make great irons, and this setup is a peicemeal
approach to BGA rework station in that all the components can be
brought seperately. Hakko is unforuntaly pricey.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

Jeff Liebermann wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:52:53 -0800 (PST), Al
wrote:

I am looking to setup a BGA rework station (including reballing chip).

All you need is a propane torch, heat gun, IR thermometer, some
aluminum foil to protect the plastic, and substantial nerve. I've
done about 20 assorted laptops this way with about 50% success rate.
Not great but certainly economical.

2. Havnt got a link but I have been told that I can get away with a
preheater, SMD hot air gun, 20x microscope.

Propane torch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oVxGGPdkbc

Heat gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR8L3B3eDr0

Alcohol lamp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zclj4waulAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9NRBLQVP4

Overkill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpywTfVB52g

If your really good I guess this might work.

I'm really bad and evil, but if I'm good, maybe Santa Claus will buy
me a new laptop instead of having to repair broken laptops.

But I am not an
experienced solder'r and I think I would prob end up cooking the
chips.

Look at the people in the above videos. Do they look like qualified
service techs? Learn By Destroying(tm). Like everything else, this
takes practice and control. Even with $1500 worth of equipment,
you're going to destroy some boards before you get it right.

There's also a big difference between BGA rework and what a hot air
soldering station is used for. With the torch method, you're only
interested in reflowing the solder. With the soldering station,
you're interested in removing the chip and replacing it with a new
chip.

Good DIY back yard solution. Might get it up and running for
$600 USD

About $10 for the torch, or $25 for the heat gun.

Any positive tips greatfully rec'd.

Some things I learned the hard way:
1. Don't push on the chips when they're hot. They'll move no matter
how steady you think your hands are.
2. Don't push on the chips with your bare fingers even if you think
the chip has cooled down. I have the blisters to prove that this is a
bad idea.
3. Slopping some liquid flux under the chips before reflowing makes a
huge cloud of concentrated smog and noxious fumes. If you wrap the
board in foil, there's less smog, but it still smells awful.
4. Do this with the board and chip horizontal. If vertical, the BGA
will fall off when the solder melts (oops).
5. Anything worth doing is also worth overdoing. However, that
doesn't work for dinner or BGA reflow. If you smell something buring,
it's either your dinner or your motherboard.
6. Plastic melts at a much lower temperature than solder. Do
something to protect the platic parts.
7. Let the chip and board warm up slowly, and cool down VERY slowly.
If you try to go to fast, you'll get a cold solder connection, warped
board, or both.

I know these guys make great irons, and this setup is a peicemeal
approach to BGA rework station in that all the components can be
brought seperately. Hakko is unforuntaly pricey.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS


No mention there of freezer spray or alignment jigs, masking off etc


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Is there a technique of pulling a hot ni-chrome wire under the chip,
combined with a lift/wedge/hook , so no lifting of fine board traces with
the chip ? Also no heat damage to the original chip, if a BGA solder problem
in the first place


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:16:59 -0000, "N_Cook"
wrote:

Is there a technique of pulling a hot ni-chrome wire under the chip,
combined with a lift/wedge/hook , so no lifting of fine board traces with
the chip ? Also no heat damage to the original chip, if a BGA solder problem
in the first place

No, or rather not that I know of. The wire would need to be VERY thin
for this to work. It would also take forever as the heat affected
zone and thermal mass of the nichrome wire is rather small. I would
think it would just smear the solder ball rather than reflow it. Some
of onine BGA repair videos suggest using glue to position the BGA
chip, which might block the hot wire.

If you're thinking of using this for repair (rather than replacement)
of BGA chips, I think you're using the wrong approach. For repair,
your trying to reconnect very small number of connections out of
possibly 100 or more connections. The idea is to fix the few, without
affecting the good connections. However, a hot wire will seriously
affect the good connections, as well as the bad. It might be useful
for removing the BGA, but not reworking it. Then, you still have the
problem of how to successfully solder the replacement chip, where the
nichrome wire method will be of no help.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:16:59 -0000, "N_Cook"
wrote:

Is there a technique of pulling a hot ni-chrome wire under the chip,
combined with a lift/wedge/hook , so no lifting of fine board traces with
the chip ? Also no heat damage to the original chip, if a BGA solder
problem
in the first place

No, or rather not that I know of. The wire would need to be VERY thin
for this to work. It would also take forever as the heat affected
zone and thermal mass of the nichrome wire is rather small. I would
think it would just smear the solder ball rather than reflow it. Some
of onine BGA repair videos suggest using glue to position the BGA
chip, which might block the hot wire.

If you're thinking of using this for repair (rather than replacement)
of BGA chips, I think you're using the wrong approach. For repair,
your trying to reconnect very small number of connections out of
possibly 100 or more connections. The idea is to fix the few, without
affecting the good connections. However, a hot wire will seriously
affect the good connections, as well as the bad. It might be useful
for removing the BGA, but not reworking it. Then, you still have the
problem of how to successfully solder the replacement chip, where the
nichrome wire method will be of no help.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I just tried some 0.4mm diam nichrome wire under an Intel BGA, but yes it
would probably need following up with some Kaptan or PTFE sheet slid in
after.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:40:42 -0000, "N_Cook"
wrote:

I just tried some 0.4mm diam nichrome wire under an Intel BGA, but yes it
would probably need following up with some Kaptan or PTFE sheet slid in
after.

Let me guess... as the wire went past a ball of solder, it melted the
solder, but was hot enough to resolder itself as the wire went past?
If that's true, a non-solderable follower will certainly cure that
problem.

You didn't answer my question. Are you trying to repair a motherboard
BGA chip (i.e. reflow), or are you trying to remove the BGA chip for
replacment? These are quite different.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:40:42 -0000, "N_Cook"
wrote:

I just tried some 0.4mm diam nichrome wire under an Intel BGA, but yes it
would probably need following up with some Kaptan or PTFE sheet slid in
after.

Let me guess... as the wire went past a ball of solder, it melted the
solder, but was hot enough to resolder itself as the wire went past?
If that's true, a non-solderable follower will certainly cure that
problem.

You didn't answer my question. Are you trying to repair a motherboard
BGA chip (i.e. reflow), or are you trying to remove the BGA chip for
replacment? These are quite different.


--

He is trying to remove the chip. He said he said ti needed to be followed
with a PTFE sheet (i.e. Non solderable follower) And in his first post he
talked about not destroying the traces on the board while removing the chip.

On Nov 22, 3:48*pm, "Michael Kennedy" wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message

...



On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:40:42 -0000, "N_Cook"
wrote:

I just tried some 0.4mm diam nichrome wire under an Intel BGA, but yes it
would probably need following up with some Kaptan or PTFE sheet slid in
after.

Let me guess... as the wire went past a ball of solder, it melted the
solder, but was hot enough to resolder itself as the wire went past?
If that's true, a non-solderable follower will certainly cure that
problem.

You didn't answer my question. *Are you trying to repair a motherboard
BGA chip (i.e. reflow), or are you trying to remove the BGA chip for
replacment? *These are quite different.

--

He is trying to remove the chip. He said he said ti needed to be followed
with a PTFE sheet (i.e. Non solderable follower) *And in his first post he
talked about not destroying the traces on the board while removing the chip.

FWIW I think I am leaning towards the Hakko solution, but I have got
someone to lend me a cheap chinese IR machine with preheater so I can
experiment and learn to know what to look for in a more expensive
setup before I go there.

-Al