I would have two simple questions...

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

William Sommerwerck wrote:

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.

Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

I work on lasers that use a buck/boost with 16 tap possibilities on 3
phase all the time, and I used to use the same units in theatrical
touring service until more modern solid state lasers dominated the
laser show industry. . From that perspective, I'm amazed at the
replies here that have failed to ask two simple questions. I will
state that I never met a house electrician who ever looked at the
rating plate on the gear, although I did have a few that asked about
phase sequences.

Two, I never met a house electrician who ever checked anything
hooked to the pigtail I gave him to connect, including "professional"
rental generator technicians (actually they were the worst) In the
theatrical business, it is up to the touring operator to check the
local guys work, and in most cases, we preferred they stand in a
corner and watch us, after your first blown passbank with 3 or 4 out
of 22 power transistors blown in the laser, you get the idea to check
the taps both preshow and under load condition. In one case I asked
for 220/3, went to lunch, and came out to find 380V European power
from the generator in my distro box, which is why the box had its
own"tagged out" disconnect switch. Its a rotary switch in big modern
generators, easy to mess up.

Questions:

One, Did the "electrician" hook straight to the machine's tappable
control transformers, or did he meet a simple junction box on the
side of the machine. If it were the later, I'd say he's off the
hook. On the other hand if he was staring at a tap strip , he should
have asked. There is also the possibility of a "cascade" of
transformers in some machines, ie little CTs all over the place in the
machine, that need tapped. ??????

Two, Did anybody bother to read the manual chapter on setup? Machine
shop gear needs leveled and "trammed" when moved, its not a simple
matter of tossing a CNC off the truck onto any old pad of concrete and
expecting good parts to tolerances, and the first paragraph usually
reads, something like "check settings" and have appropriate safety
gear. ??????

The fault occurred months down the road, a instant "oof and shower
of sparks:" would point to the electrician, but months down the road
is lack of due diligence on the part of the owner.

On Jul 5, 12:34*pm, wrote:
I work on lasers that use a buck/boost with 16 tap possibilities *on 3
phase all the time, and I used to use the same units in theatrical
touring service until more modern solid state lasers dominated the
laser show industry. . *From that perspective, *I'm amazed at the
replies here that have failed to ask two simple questions. *I will
state that I never met a house electrician who ever looked at the
rating plate on the gear, although I did have a few that asked about
phase sequences.

* * Two, I never met a house electrician who ever checked anything
hooked to the pigtail I gave him to connect, including "professional"
rental generator technicians (actually they were the worst) *In the
theatrical business, it is up to the touring operator to check the
local guys work, and in most cases, we preferred they stand in a
corner and watch us, after your first blown passbank with 3 or 4 out
of 22 power *transistors blown in the laser, you get the idea to check
the taps both preshow and under load condition. * In one case I asked
for 220/3, went to lunch, *and came out to find 380V European power
from the generator *in my distro box, which is why the box had its
own"tagged out" *disconnect switch. Its a rotary switch in big modern
generators, easy to mess up.

Questions:

*One, *Did the "electrician" hook straight to the machine's tappable
control transformers, or did he meet a simple *junction box on the
side of the machine. *If it were the later, I'd say he's off the
hook. *On the other hand if he was staring at a tap strip , he should
have asked. There is also the possibility of a "cascade" of
transformers in some machines, ie little CTs all over the place in the
machine, that need tapped. ??????

Two, Did anybody bother to read the manual chapter on setup? Machine
shop gear needs leveled and "trammed" *when moved, its not a simple
matter of tossing a CNC off the truck onto any old pad of concrete and
expecting good parts to tolerances, and the first paragraph usually
reads, something like "check settings" and have appropriate safety
gear. ??????

The fault occurred months down the road, a instant *"oof and shower
of sparks:" would point to the electrician, but months down the road
is lack of due diligence on the part of the owner.

BTW just measured our North American domestic single phase here!
Leg A = 119 volts, Leg B = 121 volts. Leg A to b = 232 volts.
119/115 = 3.4% high
121/115 = 5.2% high
232/230 = 0.8% high
It's about 02.00h in mid summer so system load is probably light and
utility will have adjusted. No AC loads here; not needed.

On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:48:36 -0700 (PDT), stan
wrote:

On Jul 5, 12:34*pm, wrote:
I work on lasers that use a buck/boost with 16 tap possibilities *on 3
phase all the time, and I used to use the same units in theatrical
touring service until more modern solid state lasers dominated the
laser show industry. . *From that perspective, *I'm amazed at the
replies here that have failed to ask two simple questions. *I will
state that I never met a house electrician who ever looked at the
rating plate on the gear, although I did have a few that asked about
phase sequences.

* * Two, I never met a house electrician who ever checked anything
hooked to the pigtail I gave him to connect, including "professional"
rental generator technicians (actually they were the worst) *In the
theatrical business, it is up to the touring operator to check the
local guys work, and in most cases, we preferred they stand in a
corner and watch us, after your first blown passbank with 3 or 4 out
of 22 power *transistors blown in the laser, you get the idea to check
the taps both preshow and under load condition. * In one case I asked
for 220/3, went to lunch, *and came out to find 380V European power
from the generator *in my distro box, which is why the box had its
own"tagged out" *disconnect switch. Its a rotary switch in big modern
generators, easy to mess up.

Questions:

*One, *Did the "electrician" hook straight to the machine's tappable
control transformers, or did he meet a simple *junction box on the
side of the machine. *If it were the later, I'd say he's off the
hook. *On the other hand if he was staring at a tap strip , he should
have asked. There is also the possibility of a "cascade" of
transformers in some machines, ie little CTs all over the place in the
machine, that need tapped. ??????

Two, Did anybody bother to read the manual chapter on setup? Machine
shop gear needs leveled and "trammed" *when moved, its not a simple
matter of tossing a CNC off the truck onto any old pad of concrete and
expecting good parts to tolerances, and the first paragraph usually
reads, something like "check settings" and have appropriate safety
gear. ??????

The fault occurred months down the road, a instant *"oof and shower
of sparks:" would point to the electrician, but months down the road
is lack of due diligence on the part of the owner.

BTW just measured our North American domestic single phase here!
Leg A = 119 volts, Leg B = 121 volts. Leg A to b = 232 volts.
119/115 = 3.4% high
121/115 = 5.2% high
232/230 = 0.8% high
It's about 02.00h in mid summer so system load is probably light and
utility will have adjusted. No AC loads here; not needed.

Except for the fact that the NA standard is 120/240 volts (there are a
number of authorative references, feel free to Google them). So your
two 'phases' are almost dead on (probably measurement error) and the
240 is slightly low (measurement error, seems odd that it can be off
consdiering that it is supposed to be the sum of the two 120 legs.)

The reason that it was standardized at 120 volts was because of the
massive interconnecting done in North America in the past 25 years.
Old standards included the 115 volts you mention, and 117 volts in
some areas, and even some with 110 volts. It was determined that it
would be necessary to standardize all voltages (just not the low
voltages we are discussing here) to allow interconnection, and direct
substitution of equipment.

PeterD wrote:

Except for the fact that the NA standard is 120/240 volts (there are a
number of authorative references, feel free to Google them). So your
two 'phases' are almost dead on (probably measurement error) and the
240 is slightly low (measurement error, seems odd that it can be off
consdiering that it is supposed to be the sum of the two 120 legs.)


Not at all. He measured them at diffent times, unless he has three
meters.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

PeterD wrote:

It was determined that it
would be necessary to standardize all voltages (just not the low
voltages we are discussing here) to allow interconnection, and direct
substitution of equipment.


Not much standardization at voltage over 600V, at all.

13.8, 12.47, 12.00 KV are all fairly common MV distribution voltages
around here.
jk

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:50:07 -0700, jk wrote:

PeterD wrote:

It was determined that it
would be necessary to standardize all voltages (just not the low
voltages we are discussing here) to allow interconnection, and direct
substitution of equipment.


Not much standardization at voltage over 600V, at all.

13.8, 12.47, 12.00 KV are all fairly common MV distribution voltages
around here.
jk

It seems that way to you. More study can reveal how those
distribution voltages are related. You may bother or not.

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system
was rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.

I didn't miss the point (I think). He was doing the work of an electrician.
And whether or not he was a licensed electrician, he is still morally
responsible for the quality of his work. (Think Hamurabi.)


Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not
the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

No, there wouldn't be. But if he botched the job, he has to be held
responsible. Doesn't he?

Of course, one might argue that if the person who hired him /knew/ he wasn't
an electrician, and didn't have the work inspected, then he (the hirer) is
responsible for whatever went wrong.

In article , "William Sommerwerck" wrote:
1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system
was rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.

I didn't miss the point (I think). He was doing the work of an electrician.
And whether or not he was a licensed electrician, he is still morally
responsible for the quality of his work. (Think Hamurabi.)

Actually, you *are* missing the important point, which is that it's
_not_his_fault_:

1) 245VAC is *not* a problem in a nominal 240VAC supply.
2) If the equipment is actually labelled 220V, and not 240V, it's *old*.
3) Equipment designed for 220VAC normally operates just fine on 240VAC.
4) If the wiring, or the voltage, were in any way to blame, the failure almost
certainly would have occurred long before it did. Four weeks after the fact, I
can't see how that could be laid at the feet of the guy that did the wiring,
licensed or not.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "William
Sommerwerck" wrote:

1) 245VAC is *not* a problem in a nominal 240VAC supply.


That is correct until you factor in that the taps were set to 220v. If the
taps were set at 240, then 245v would never have been a problem.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system
was rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.

I didn't miss the point (I think). He was doing the work of an electrician.
And whether or not he was a licensed electrician, he is still morally
responsible for the quality of his work. (Think Hamurabi.)

Only if it can be shown that he did something wrong. I don't know what
US tolerances on voltage are but in the UK 245v on a nominally 240 line
(these days 230v with asymetric tolerancing) wouldn't raise eyebrows.

Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not
the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

No, there wouldn't be. But if he botched the job, he has to be held
responsible. Doesn't he?

Iff he botched the job. The kit worked for a while after he left. And he
did not claim to be a qualified electrician.

Had he connected the machine chassis to live and electrocuted someone
then it would be a different matter. But even then the employer who got
in a cut price handyman to do a qualified industrial electricians job
would still be guilty of more serious fundamental health and safety
offences for not having the installation inspected by a competent person
before switching it on. What are the US regs like on employer liability?

Of course, one might argue that if the person who hired him /knew/ he wasn't
an electrician, and didn't have the work inspected, then he (the hirer) is
responsible for whatever went wrong.

Exactly. And that is how the insurers would argue it to avoid paying out
a dime if the whole building burnt down as a result of unqualified
electrical work that had not been properly inspected before switch on. I
don't see that the handyman has anything to answer for although he may
still have problems with frivolous litigation from the OP's mate.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:54:05 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:


You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.


We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

If the same person gets a license, does that automatically make him no
longer a handyman, but an electrician?

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union spit?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

Gunner



"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:


So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union spit?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

Gunner

Yes, you're a glorified handyman...happy? ;-)

Yes you have the knowledge and experience, but as long as you do not hold a
valid license, you can call yourself an electrician, but you cannot call
yourself a licensed electrician. As an unlicensed electrician you cannot
LEGALLY perform ANY electrical work outside of your own single family
residence. BTW, union or not makes no difference, it's state law we're
talking about.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:16:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union spit?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

You can get a license without being in the union.

Excuses do not make you qualified. Especially if the tests you took
were way back in '74.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:48:41 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:16:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union spit?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

You can get a license without being in the union.

Of course I can. And did.

Excuses do not make you qualified. Especially if the tests you took
were way back in '74.

Where did you get that date from? Was that the year you were spawned?

I put my C7-C10 on "Hold" with the California BCA in 1998. I think its
expired now..as I recall, it only had a 10 yr life on hold.

Shrug..another weekend at a Contractors Fast Learn and take the test on
Monday. Not a big deal. Except the fees and costs.
Which means Ill simply continue on as a CNC tech who occasionally does
electrical work, until the economy turns around. Of course..I may be
near retirement age by that time...assuming the US doesnt melt down
totally.

Shrug

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:44:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

I guarantee it doesn't match yours.

You seem to think that since you understand the rules of making a
connection that you understand electrical power.

I doubt seriously that you have such a grasp of the industry.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:26:07 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:44:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

I guarantee it doesn't match yours.

You seem to think that since you understand the rules of making a
connection that you understand electrical power.

Odd...so Im simply a wire hooker-upper? And my CNC machine repair is
simply making connections? No understanding of the trade?

I doubt seriously that you have such a grasp of the industry.

Why...because Im not a Union Member?

Chuckle...I charge MORE than most Union Members do. And I get the work.

I suggest you review what you wrote..and why you wrote it.

VBG

Gunner




"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

Geoff.


Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected
by an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed
electrician to be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but
there is no law against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced
electrical service panels and added circuits for renovations in the
homes of quite a few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but
it was no trouble to get a permit and have the work inspected when it
was complete. Even licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.

"James Sweet" wrote in message
...

Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected by
an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed electrician to
be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but there is no law
against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced electrical
service panels and added circuits for renovations in the homes of quite a
few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but it was no trouble to
get a permit and have the work inspected when it was complete. Even
licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.

You're fooling yourself. You cannot legally do any electrical work at the
homes of your friends or family. If there is ever an electrical fire at any
building that you did electrical work in...you can kiss your life goodbye.
You can be arrested, tried in a criminal court, and sentenced to prison,
plus sued for everything you own in a civil court. This can happen to you
because it is a crime in any state (as far as I know) for you to do this
work. Liability insurance is not even an option for you because you have to
be licensed to get the insurance in the first place.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:40:26 -0700, James Sweet
wrote:



If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

Geoff.


Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected
by an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed
electrician to be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but
there is no law against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced
electrical service panels and added circuits for renovations in the
homes of quite a few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but
it was no trouble to get a permit and have the work inspected when it
was complete. Even licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.

That depends entirely on the jurisdiction. Several cities have
tradesmen full employment laws. Some have no inspectors at all.

I would have two simple questions...

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
rewired?

No.

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?
--
John English

In my opinion, No and no to both your questions below. The result would
likely have been the same.

Bob

"John E." wrote in message
obal.net...
This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice
to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and
such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely
had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?
--
John English

John E wrote:

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?

What you have not said is what was the voltage supposed to be?

Where? Common and regular practice as you call it varies from country to
country.

Also what was the actual voltage at the old location. If it was supposed to
be 240 volts then 245 is well within actual variations, or the calibration
of a meter.

If it was supposed to be 208 or 220 or 308, etc then it is too high.

This to me is starting to get tedious. A simple question of "who was at fault"
has become a "****ing contest" over who can make the most outrageous guess
as to why their champion is guilt free.

IMHO it really boils down to exactly what the owner of the business expected
when he hired "the guy". If he hired someone he knew was unlicensed, he
should have had the work inspected or hired a licensed electrician. Otherwise
he was taking a chance that he would never get caught cheating, and he lost.

As for the CNC device failing, his expectation of "the guy" to open it up
and adjust the voltage tapes is unreasonable. Again he took a chance that
he could move the device without hiring the proper technician to pack it up,
unpack it after arival and set it up. And again, he lost.

Considering the worst outcome of it would have been a fire destroying the
building, everything in it and killing all the people involved, a $4000
controller failure, which was probably not caused by the voltage problem
anyway, is a small price to pay for loosing.

As for insurance, no property insurance will cover damage due to illegal
repairs, etc, which includes uninspected work done by unlicensed electricians,
and no manufacturer will cover damage due to untrained technicians modifying
the equipment (even to move the voltage taps), or damage caused by over
voltage due to an unlicensed electrician wiring the equipment.

There may also be civil and criminal liability here, the best thing to do
IMHO is to have the company and "the guy" come to an agreement where they
will leave him alone, and eat the loss. They will then pay for any repairs
to the equipment and "the work" as legally mandated.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

This to me is starting to get tedious.

The standard USENET rule applies:

THEN DON'T RESPOND.

"John E." wrote in message
obal.net...

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice
to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and
such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely
had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?
--
John English


It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.

It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied. IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.

Rich. wrote:


It is not regular practice to inform the owner, unless something is found to
be wrong. Having 245v in the building is not normal, and there is a lot of
equipment out there that does not have taps. Equipment without taps could be
damaged by this higher than usual voltage.


Where, no one will say where this is. As for the voltage, here in Israel
230 volts is normal, 245 is not. In the UK, 240 is the "nominal voltage",
245 is less than 3% high and well with the accuracy of a random voltmeter.

In the US, the nominal line voltage is around 127 volts, specified to be
120, BUT the system almost everywhere is a 240 volt 2 phase system, with
one phase to ground being "120" volts and the voltage between them being
"240" volts.


It is the responsibility of the electrician to make sure the equipment he is
wiring can correctly run on the power being supplied. IMO the electrician
did not do his job correctly.


Only if the electrician is hired to hook up the equipment to the power line
and adjust the equipment as needed. If an electrician is hired to run some
conduit with a connection to a panel at one end and an outlet at the other
than there is no responsability for the equipment that may be plugged into
it, or the actual voltage.

Since there was no electrician here, just an unlicensed "handyman", there is
even less liability.

The original poster asked what was reasonable and customary. The answer to that
is:

1. Hire a licensed electrician to run the wire and make sure the outlets are
up to spec according to the applicable law.

2. Hire a technican authorized by the manufacturer of the equipment to
properly pack it up, unpack it after moving and hook it up, making any
adjustments as needed.

For the first, nothing else is legal, and therefore anything else (except
inspection by a licensed electrician) is reasonable.

The second is a little more fluid, but the manufacturer would argue that
using someone who is not authorized to make connections, modify the equipment,
etc voids their warranty, so one can argue that is the customary practice.

I guess you can argue that it is customary to cheat on the license for small
electrical jobs, and the certification of technicians for repairs, etc, but
that custom also carries the burden of accepting responsability for any
damaged caused by the people who do the work.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

USA, N. American continent, planet Earth.

On 2009-07-05, John E wrote:
2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?

I have 245 volts in my garage. Everything works great.

245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

There is no causal relationship, as far as I can tell, between
perfectly normal voltage provided in your shop, and your CNC machine
frying after 3 more weeks.

I have not yet seen a more inane discussion thread.

i

Ignoramus20157 wrote:

On 2009-07-05, John E wrote:

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?


I have 245 volts in my garage. Everything works great.

245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

There is no causal relationship, as far as I can tell, between
perfectly normal voltage provided in your shop, and your CNC machine
frying after 3 more weeks.

I have not yet seen a more inane discussion thread.


Dont worry there will be more. Its a great form of mindless intertainment.

Any CNC control or machine that cannot take a 10% overvoltage is a
piece of junk to begin with. Power supply technology in the last 20
years can easily design units that will handle these variations. The
power company likes to hold the voltage on the supply lines as high as
possible to reduce the losses per kw metered and delivered.
I have a number of CNC machines running on 515 volts measured at the
machine internal disconnect and never had a control failure from
overvoltage. Undervoltage is what damages equipment because the
currents run higher for the same work done and the power components get
hotter from the higher current.


John

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:10:07 -0400, john wrote:


I have not yet seen a more inane discussion thread.


Dont worry there will be more. Its a great form of mindless intertainment.

Any CNC control or machine that cannot take a 10% overvoltage is a
piece of junk to begin with.


As a CNC tech..I agree with you. Unfortunately however...there are far
far too many Big Name manufactures out there who utilize minimal design
perameters when they make something (very expensive) and then charge out
the ass when it goes tits up.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:43:44 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

As a CNC tech..I agree with you. Unfortunately however...there are far
far too many Big Name manufactures out there who utilize minimal design
perameters when they make something (very expensive) and then charge out
the ass when it goes tits up.

Yeah, this dopey **** really knows about quality. NOT!

"Big Name manufacturers"? What easy sleazy Japanesey?

Cite, asswipe? US makers?

Don't jack off at the mouth without backing it up.

What are you ****ed about? Single sided boards? What? How ****ing
hard can it be to be one that touts hi,mself as a CNC tech if all the
gear is so "cheaply made".

Jeez, when are you going to go tit up?

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:15:08 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:43:44 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

As a CNC tech..I agree with you. Unfortunately however...there are far
far too many Big Name manufactures out there who utilize minimal design
perameters when they make something (very expensive) and then charge out
the ass when it goes tits up.

Yeah, this dopey **** really knows about quality. NOT!

"Big Name manufacturers"? What easy sleazy Japanesey?

Mori Seiki, Sharnoa, Toyoda, Mitsubish and so forth.

Now I know you are simply masturbating while typing..as you dont have a
clue that there are any US manufactures left besides Haas and
Fadal....but hey...enjoy yourself and the rest of us can laugh our asses
off at you.

Cite, asswipe? US makers?

Don't jack off at the mouth without backing it up.

Shush..you must missed a stroke.

What are you ****ed about? Single sided boards? What? How ****ing
hard can it be to be one that touts hi,mself as a CNC tech if all the
gear is so "cheaply made".

VBG

Jeez, when are you going to go tit up?

Long after Ive had the chance to **** on your grave.

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

"Ignoramus20157" wrote in message
...
245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

Oddly enough, that's exactly what I've measured (give or take a few tenths)
in the MSOE power lab (which is equipped with 208V 3 phase), and very nearly
the same at my own bench at home.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 18:11:46 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Ignoramus20157" wrote in message
m...
245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

Oddly enough, that's exactly what I've measured (give or take a few tenths)
in the MSOE power lab (which is equipped with 208V 3 phase), and very nearly
the same at my own bench at home.

Tim

Your apparent conflation of single phase systems and 3 phase systems
only serves to confuse outsiders.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:56:15 -0500, Ignoramus20157
wrote:

On 2009-07-05, John E wrote:
2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?

I have 245 volts in my garage. Everything works great.

245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

There is no causal relationship, as far as I can tell, between
perfectly normal voltage provided in your shop, and your CNC machine
frying after 3 more weeks.

I have not yet seen a more inane discussion thread.

i

Mere ignorance is curable. I have seen worse in this NG. I have seen
far, far worse in other NG. Stick around and learn something, even if
it is only how crazy people get.

In article , "William Sommerwerck" wrote:
I would have two simple questions...

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system was
rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
about a 2% overvoltage.

Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" -- it's only
about a 2% overvoltage.

And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.

But I question the use of "3phase" and "245 volts" in the OP question.
Around here, 245 volts would be perfectly normal for a single phase
circuit, very high for a "standard" 208/3 phase delta.