Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his friends.
Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his own
business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point of
view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year or so
it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the number of
bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is firmly
convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that doesn't
stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal inertia, cannot
take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to. This seems
altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it would
play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that wasn't it.
I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband magnifier. I
then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a connector. The joints
had that traditional lead-free straight-sided volcano like shape. Once these
had been attended to, and the original laser put back in, everything was
fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider implications
of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and reliable
technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would say false
.... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these joints into
submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the avionics and
automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get rescinded ...

Arfa

I see it as another example of well-meaning people effecting change about
that which they know not. The consequence is that a few people feel they
have saved the world, and everyone else suffers. Mr. Common Sense has once
again died and gone to hell.

WT

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends. Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his
own business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point
of view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year
or so it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the
number of bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is
firmly convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that
doesn't stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal
inertia, cannot take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to.
This seems altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that
wasn't it. I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband
magnifier. I then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a
connector. The joints had that traditional lead-free straight-sided
volcano like shape. Once these had been attended to, and the original
laser put back in, everything was fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and
reliable technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would
say false ... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these
joints into submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the
avionics and automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get
rescinded ...

Arfa

I have worked with it and have concluded that it is different, but not
neccesarrily that big a deal. Some of it is much harder to work with than
others and I suspect that just like the early days of circuit board
automated production, we will see the manufacturers go through a learning
curve with respect to how to use it properly. Lead definitely has its
advantages, and I think the environmental impact is minimal for now, but
what about hundreds of years from now? Who knows what those lead containing
boards will be subjected to in time? It is a change that I suspect will not
be reversed, so I see no reason to do anything but get used to it and
happily accept any repairs that it brings me. No different from all those
hundreds of LA7838s that did not have enough solder deposited on the joints.
We ain't going back to manual inseertion and soldering in production lines
either.

Leonard

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends. Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his
own business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point
of view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year
or so it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the
number of bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is
firmly convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that
doesn't stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal
inertia, cannot take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to.
This seems altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that
wasn't it. I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband
magnifier. I then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a
connector. The joints had that traditional lead-free straight-sided
volcano like shape. Once these had been attended to, and the original
laser put back in, everything was fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and
reliable technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would
say false ... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these
joints into submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the
avionics and automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get
rescinded ...

Arfa


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends.
Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his own
business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point of
view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year or
so
it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the number of
bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is firmly
convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that doesn't
stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal inertia,
cannot
take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to. This seems
altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would
play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that wasn't
it.
I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband magnifier. I
then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a connector. The
joints
had that traditional lead-free straight-sided volcano like shape. Once
these
had been attended to, and the original laser put back in, everything was
fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications
of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and reliable
technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would say
false
... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these joints into
submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the avionics and
automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get rescinded ...

Arfa



But you can get that sort of failure with Pb/Sn if the flow soldering is not
hand redone for the large metalic heatsinky pins etc, combined with a blunt
post soldering leg/pin-cropper straining the joint before it comes out of
the factory.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"Wayne Tiffany" wrote in message
.com...
I see it as another example of well-meaning people effecting change about
that which they know not. The consequence is that a few people feel they
have saved the world, and everyone else suffers. Mr. Common Sense has once
again died and gone to hell.

Well meaning nothing! - many of these so called "green" initiatives are led
by anarchists hoping to destroy capitalism, although they do seem to have
shot themselves in the foot with this one as washing machines have a much
shorter life span and the capitalists sell more washing machines.

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends.
Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his own
business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point of
view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year or
so
it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the number
of
bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is firmly
convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that doesn't
stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal inertia,
cannot
take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to. This seems
altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would
play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that wasn't
it.
I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband magnifier. I
then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a connector. The
joints
had that traditional lead-free straight-sided volcano like shape. Once
these
had been attended to, and the original laser put back in, everything was
fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications
of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and reliable
technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would say
false
... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these joints into
submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the avionics and
automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get rescinded
...

Arfa



But you can get that sort of failure with Pb/Sn if the flow soldering is
not
hand redone for the large metalic heatsinky pins etc, combined with a
blunt
post soldering leg/pin-cropper straining the joint before it comes out of
the factory.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Granted, you can. But this guy saw it as enough of a difference from what he
has seen over the years with traditional lead-based solder, as to be worth
commenting about. Where the problem comes about, is with the higher temps
required to flow this stuff. The manufacturers dare not go up too high for
fear of damaging both semiconductor components, and the board substrate ( to
say nothing of their bank account from the higher energy costs associated
with having to use the stuff - green? - Ha! ). This leads to them going
*just* high enough to solder those components, which leaves them well short
of enough temperature to get a really good joint at high thermal inertia
components like connectors and power devices. Certainly, I see a lot more
bad joints now than we had become used to with lead-based solder, and by far
and away, the majority are on connectors and similar that would not have
been giving the same trouble a few years back. I also see a higher number
than would be expected, of bad joints on fine pin-pitch LSIs, often along
one side only, which I'm guessing is the side away from the solder
wavefront. From the time that the techniques were first developed to
production-solder these devices, the soldering has been very reliable, but
not any more ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me
to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends.
Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his own
business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point of
view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year
or
so
it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the number
of
bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is firmly
convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that
doesn't
stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal inertia,
cannot
take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to. This seems
altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount
of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would
play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that wasn't
it.
I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband magnifier.
I
then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a connector. The
joints
had that traditional lead-free straight-sided volcano like shape. Once
these
had been attended to, and the original laser put back in, everything
was
fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications
of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and reliable
technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would say
false
... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these joints into
submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the avionics and
automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get rescinded
...

Arfa



But you can get that sort of failure with Pb/Sn if the flow soldering is
not
hand redone for the large metalic heatsinky pins etc, combined with a
blunt
post soldering leg/pin-cropper straining the joint before it comes out
of
the factory.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Granted, you can. But this guy saw it as enough of a difference from what
he
has seen over the years with traditional lead-based solder, as to be worth
commenting about. Where the problem comes about, is with the higher temps
required to flow this stuff. The manufacturers dare not go up too high for
fear of damaging both semiconductor components, and the board substrate
to
say nothing of their bank account from the higher energy costs associated
with having to use the stuff - green? - Ha! ). This leads to them going
*just* high enough to solder those components, which leaves them well
short
of enough temperature to get a really good joint at high thermal inertia
components like connectors and power devices. Certainly, I see a lot more
bad joints now than we had become used to with lead-based solder, and by
far
and away, the majority are on connectors and similar that would not have
been giving the same trouble a few years back. I also see a higher number
than would be expected, of bad joints on fine pin-pitch LSIs, often along
one side only, which I'm guessing is the side away from the solder
wavefront. From the time that the techniques were first developed to
production-solder these devices, the soldering has been very reliable, but
not any more ...

Arfa



I'd not realised it was a hiding to nothing play off between
temperature/wave speed/heat capicity/heat transfer rate. Heatsinky
components/mechanically streesed ones should still be redone by hand surely.

In article ,
ian field wrote:
Well meaning nothing! - many of these so called "green" initiatives are
led by anarchists hoping to destroy capitalism,

Interesting view of the EU bureaucrats. Anarchists. One who believes in
the abolishment of law and order and or government. ;-)

--
*Life is hard; then you nap

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ian field wrote:
Well meaning nothing! - many of these so called "green" initiatives are
led by anarchists hoping to destroy capitalism,

Interesting view of the EU bureaucrats. Anarchists. One who believes in
the abolishment of law and order and or government. ;-)


Who said anything about EU beaurocrats? - They've simply passes popularist
legislation on things they know absolutely nothing about!

You'd have to be blind (or never watch the news) to miss the crowds of kooks
that riot every time there's a political summit, the EU beaurocrats see
large crowds rioting and decide that many people must all be right - eat
****, 2 000 000 000 000 flies can't be wrong!

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me
to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends.
Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his own
business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point
of
view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year
or
so
it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the
number
of
bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is firmly
convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that
doesn't
stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal inertia,
cannot
take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to. This seems
altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount
of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would
play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that
wasn't
it.
I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband magnifier.
I
then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a connector. The
joints
had that traditional lead-free straight-sided volcano like shape. Once
these
had been attended to, and the original laser put back in, everything
was
fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications
of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and reliable
technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would say
false
... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these joints into
submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the avionics and
automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get rescinded
...

Arfa



But you can get that sort of failure with Pb/Sn if the flow soldering
is
not
hand redone for the large metalic heatsinky pins etc, combined with a
blunt
post soldering leg/pin-cropper straining the joint before it comes out
of
the factory.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Granted, you can. But this guy saw it as enough of a difference from what
he
has seen over the years with traditional lead-based solder, as to be
worth
commenting about. Where the problem comes about, is with the higher temps
required to flow this stuff. The manufacturers dare not go up too high
for
fear of damaging both semiconductor components, and the board substrate
to
say nothing of their bank account from the higher energy costs associated
with having to use the stuff - green? - Ha! ). This leads to them going
*just* high enough to solder those components, which leaves them well
short
of enough temperature to get a really good joint at high thermal inertia
components like connectors and power devices. Certainly, I see a lot more
bad joints now than we had become used to with lead-based solder, and by
far
and away, the majority are on connectors and similar that would not have
been giving the same trouble a few years back. I also see a higher number
than would be expected, of bad joints on fine pin-pitch LSIs, often along
one side only, which I'm guessing is the side away from the solder
wavefront. From the time that the techniques were first developed to
production-solder these devices, the soldering has been very reliable,
but
not any more ...

Arfa



I'd not realised it was a hiding to nothing play off between
temperature/wave speed/heat capicity/heat transfer rate. Heatsinky
components/mechanically streesed ones should still be redone by hand
surely.



As long as the manufacturers can (only just) get the product to out live the
warranty they're very happy. Most electronic components generate heat so the
temperature cycles up/down every time its used. The expansion/contraction
breaks lead free solder pretty quickly so the production lines are busier
than ever turning out replacement equipment.

"Jamie" t wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:

Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends. Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with
his own business of many years. He told my friend that from a business
point of view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last
year or so it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of
the number of bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He
is firmly convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material
that doesn't stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal
inertia, cannot take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to.
This seems altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that
wasn't it. I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband
magnifier. I then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a
connector. The joints had that traditional lead-free straight-sided
volcano like shape. Once these had been attended to, and the original
laser put back in, everything was fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and
reliable technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some
would say false ... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate
these joints into submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that
the avionics and automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never
get rescinded ...

Arfa
well, i do use it and i don't like the finish i get from it how ever,
we do like using it on repairing old electronic boards that have high
wattage R's on the board that create cracks when hot. I find in those
cases you can increase the heat on the tip and force it to flow nicely
which gives a good bond on those hot running components.



Trouble with that philosophy, is that the jury is still out on whether you
can reliably mix leaded and non-leaded solder. Some solder manufacturers say
that you can, whilst others say that you can't. A number of independant
metalurgical experts are of the opinion that by mixing the two solders, the
long term integrity of the joint will be compromised. There is actually no
requirement in the legislation to repair equipment that was originally
manufactured with leaded solder, with anything other than leaded solder.
Somewhere around the shop, I have an old reel of leaded high melting point
solder that I used to use for that sort of thing, but haven't in a long
time. It was originally for resoldering those spring-off resistors -
remember them ?

Just as an aside, after this morning's NAD, this afternoon I had a Sony home
cinema - one of the DAV series - I dunno, a 300 or 500 or some such. It had
the usual problem of thinking that it was in headphone mode, but instead of
the common bad connector, this time, it was yet more lead-free bad joints on
the power amp PCB. As well as the ones on the bottom of the connector that
were causing the headphone problem, it also had cracked-around joints on
just about all of the six channels' output filter chokes, a problem which
you've probably all seen more than once on these, and also on the output
relays. Now these are problems that have developed, as the boards are old
enough that if they were original production drys, they would have showed
long ago. I accept that drys also 'develop' with leaded solder on certain
components that suffer high levels of thermal cycling in use, but the amount
of drys on this one board, all on components that are either fairly large,
or subject to mechanical vibration stress ( the relays ) rather than thermal
issues, leads me to believe that there is a different failure mechanism at
work here, possibly related to the lack of ductility of lead-free compared
to leaded solder.

As far as the suggestion of manufacturers having to hand work bunches of
components as the boards roll off the line, I can't imagine any way that
this could be accomplished in a practical or cost-effective way.

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his friends.
Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his own
business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point of
view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year or so
it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the number of
bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is firmly
convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that doesn't
stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal inertia, cannot
take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to. This seems
altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it would
play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that wasn't it.
I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband magnifier. I
then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a connector. The joints
had that traditional lead-free straight-sided volcano like shape. Once these
had been attended to, and the original laser put back in, everything was
fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider implications
of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and reliable
technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would say false
... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these joints into
submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the avionics and
automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get rescinded ...

Arfa


well, i do use it and i don't like the finish i get from it how ever,
we do like using it on repairing old electronic boards that have high
wattage R's on the board that create cracks when hot. I find in those
cases you can increase the heat on the tip and force it to flow nicely
which gives a good bond on those hot running components.


--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
A number of independant metalurgical experts are of the opinion that by
mixing the two solders, the long term integrity of the joint will be
compromised.

Who are these experts and where are the links to the info on this? I would
be curious what testing they have done and on what formulations. The
vendors that have been willing to comment to me off the record say that
there is no problem and that they are just political CYAing when they say to
use lead free to repair lead free boards.

Leonard

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Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"Jamie" t wrote in
message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Trouble with that philosophy, is that the jury is still out on whether you
can reliably mix leaded and non-leaded solder. Some solder manufacturers
say
that you can, whilst others say that you can't. A number of independant
metalurgical experts are of the opinion that by mixing the two solders,
the
long term integrity of the joint will be compromised. There is actually no
requirement in the legislation to repair equipment that was originally
manufactured with leaded solder, with anything other than leaded solder.
Somewhere around the shop, I have an old reel of leaded high melting point
solder that I used to use for that sort of thing, but haven't in a long
time. It was originally for resoldering those spring-off resistors -
remember them ?

Just as an aside, after this morning's NAD, this afternoon I had a Sony
home
cinema - one of the DAV series - I dunno, a 300 or 500 or some such. It
had
the usual problem of thinking that it was in headphone mode, but instead
of
the common bad connector, this time, it was yet more lead-free bad joints
on
the power amp PCB. As well as the ones on the bottom of the connector that
were causing the headphone problem, it also had cracked-around joints on
just about all of the six channels' output filter chokes, a problem which
you've probably all seen more than once on these, and also on the output
relays. Now these are problems that have developed, as the boards are old
enough that if they were original production drys, they would have showed
long ago. I accept that drys also 'develop' with leaded solder on certain
components that suffer high levels of thermal cycling in use, but the
amount
of drys on this one board, all on components that are either fairly large,
or subject to mechanical vibration stress ( the relays ) rather than
thermal
issues, leads me to believe that there is a different failure mechanism at
work here, possibly related to the lack of ductility of lead-free compared
to leaded solder.

As far as the suggestion of manufacturers having to hand work bunches of
components as the boards roll off the line, I can't imagine any way that
this could be accomplished in a practical or cost-effective way.

Arfa



Another failure mode I've come across ove rthe years is where the component
sourcing changes, but the board layout/drilling remains the same and the new
comps have smaller diameter pins. The solder bridges the gap ok for a few
years and then cracks, not even heat stressed, just room temp changes
probably. How would the non Pb/Sn stuff fare with that situation in
comparison.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
A number of independant metalurgical experts are of the opinion that by
mixing the two solders, the long term integrity of the joint will be
compromised.

Who are these experts and where are the links to the info on this? I
would be curious what testing they have done and on what formulations.
The vendors that have been willing to comment to me off the record say
that there is no problem and that they are just political CYAing when they
say to use lead free to repair lead free boards.

Leonard

Hi Leonard

I came across several on the net saying much the same thing, when I was
researching an article on the stuff a couple of years back, when everyone in
the business thought that it was suddenly going to be "illegal" to use
leaded solder after the RoHS directive came in, and that if you did, the
solder police in their green uniforms would come rushing round to arrest you
before beating you up and throwing you in Eurojail for 20 years. I've
cleaned up the PC since then, but have found the following link to an
article written by a Dr Paul Goodman, who works for a well respected
institution who provide help and advice to industry on the technicalities of
this directive and associated issues. I had a number of direct conversations
with Paul to make sure that I was correctly understanding comments that he
had made in his document on the subject, and came to the conclusion that he
knew what he was talking about. The bit that refers to mixing solder types
is under the heading "REWORK"

http://documents.rs-components.com/E...g_and_RoHS.pdf

I'm sure with a bit of time spent, other similar comments could be found
again, unless there has been a serious genuine ( or politically motivated )
change of opinion by those that agreed with Paul, in the intervening couple
of years. The document I have referred to is still live - I've just checked.
In case that long link embedded in a news post gives any trouble, the gap
either side of the word "and" is filled with an underscore.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
A number of independant metalurgical experts are of the opinion that by
mixing the two solders, the long term integrity of the joint will be
compromised.

Who are these experts and where are the links to the info on this? I
would be curious what testing they have done and on what formulations.
The vendors that have been willing to comment to me off the record say
that there is no problem and that they are just political CYAing when
they say to use lead free to repair lead free boards.

Leonard

Hi Leonard

I came across several on the net saying much the same thing, when I was
researching an article on the stuff a couple of years back, when everyone
in the business thought that it was suddenly going to be "illegal" to use
leaded solder after the RoHS directive came in, and that if you did, the
solder police in their green uniforms would come rushing round to arrest
you before beating you up and throwing you in Eurojail for 20 years. I've
cleaned up the PC since then, but have found the following link to an
article written by a Dr Paul Goodman, who works for a well respected
institution who provide help and advice to industry on the technicalities
of this directive and associated issues. I had a number of direct
conversations with Paul to make sure that I was correctly understanding
comments that he had made in his document on the subject, and came to the
conclusion that he knew what he was talking about. The bit that refers to
mixing solder types is under the heading "REWORK"

http://documents.rs-components.com/E...g_and_RoHS.pdf

I'm sure with a bit of time spent, other similar comments could be found
again, unless there has been a serious genuine ( or politically
motivated ) change of opinion by those that agreed with Paul, in the
intervening couple of years. The document I have referred to is still
live - I've just checked. In case that long link embedded in a news post
gives any trouble, the gap either side of the word "and" is filled with an
underscore.

Arfa



Most of the far-eastern manufacturers were years ahead of the RoHS deadline
and a huge number failed due to faulty soldering, as it was before the
deadline I used lead/tin solder - most of my monitor customers were regulars
so if mixing solder types had been any less reliable than the original
lead-free, I would have soon found out!

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"Jamie" t wrote in
message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Trouble with that philosophy, is that the jury is still out on whether
you
can reliably mix leaded and non-leaded solder. Some solder manufacturers
say
that you can, whilst others say that you can't. A number of independant
metalurgical experts are of the opinion that by mixing the two solders,
the
long term integrity of the joint will be compromised. There is actually
no
requirement in the legislation to repair equipment that was originally
manufactured with leaded solder, with anything other than leaded solder.
Somewhere around the shop, I have an old reel of leaded high melting
point
solder that I used to use for that sort of thing, but haven't in a long
time. It was originally for resoldering those spring-off resistors -
remember them ?

Just as an aside, after this morning's NAD, this afternoon I had a Sony
home
cinema - one of the DAV series - I dunno, a 300 or 500 or some such. It
had
the usual problem of thinking that it was in headphone mode, but instead
of
the common bad connector, this time, it was yet more lead-free bad joints
on
the power amp PCB. As well as the ones on the bottom of the connector
that
were causing the headphone problem, it also had cracked-around joints on
just about all of the six channels' output filter chokes, a problem which
you've probably all seen more than once on these, and also on the output
relays. Now these are problems that have developed, as the boards are old
enough that if they were original production drys, they would have showed
long ago. I accept that drys also 'develop' with leaded solder on certain
components that suffer high levels of thermal cycling in use, but the
amount
of drys on this one board, all on components that are either fairly
large,
or subject to mechanical vibration stress ( the relays ) rather than
thermal
issues, leads me to believe that there is a different failure mechanism
at
work here, possibly related to the lack of ductility of lead-free
compared
to leaded solder.

As far as the suggestion of manufacturers having to hand work bunches of
components as the boards roll off the line, I can't imagine any way that
this could be accomplished in a practical or cost-effective way.

Arfa



Another failure mode I've come across ove rthe years is where the
component
sourcing changes, but the board layout/drilling remains the same and the
new
comps have smaller diameter pins. The solder bridges the gap ok for a few
years and then cracks, not even heat stressed, just room temp changes
probably. How would the non Pb/Sn stuff fare with that situation in
comparison.


...................after less than a years use you'd be able to pull most of
the components out without heating the solder!

"ian field" wrote in message
...

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"Jamie" t wrote in
message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
Trouble with that philosophy, is that the jury is still out on whether
you
can reliably mix leaded and non-leaded solder. Some solder manufacturers
say
that you can, whilst others say that you can't. A number of independant
metalurgical experts are of the opinion that by mixing the two solders,
the
long term integrity of the joint will be compromised. There is actually
no
requirement in the legislation to repair equipment that was originally
manufactured with leaded solder, with anything other than leaded solder.
Somewhere around the shop, I have an old reel of leaded high melting
point
solder that I used to use for that sort of thing, but haven't in a long
time. It was originally for resoldering those spring-off resistors -
remember them ?

Just as an aside, after this morning's NAD, this afternoon I had a Sony
home
cinema - one of the DAV series - I dunno, a 300 or 500 or some such. It
had
the usual problem of thinking that it was in headphone mode, but instead
of
the common bad connector, this time, it was yet more lead-free bad
joints
on
the power amp PCB. As well as the ones on the bottom of the connector
that
were causing the headphone problem, it also had cracked-around joints on
just about all of the six channels' output filter chokes, a problem
which
you've probably all seen more than once on these, and also on the output
relays. Now these are problems that have developed, as the boards are
old
enough that if they were original production drys, they would have
showed
long ago. I accept that drys also 'develop' with leaded solder on
certain
components that suffer high levels of thermal cycling in use, but the
amount
of drys on this one board, all on components that are either fairly
large,
or subject to mechanical vibration stress ( the relays ) rather than
thermal
issues, leads me to believe that there is a different failure mechanism
at
work here, possibly related to the lack of ductility of lead-free
compared
to leaded solder.

As far as the suggestion of manufacturers having to hand work bunches of
components as the boards roll off the line, I can't imagine any way that
this could be accomplished in a practical or cost-effective way.

Arfa



Another failure mode I've come across ove rthe years is where the
component
sourcing changes, but the board layout/drilling remains the same and the
new
comps have smaller diameter pins. The solder bridges the gap ok for a few
years and then cracks, not even heat stressed, just room temp changes
probably. How would the non Pb/Sn stuff fare with that situation in
comparison.


..................after less than a years use you'd be able to pull most
of the components out without heating the solder!

Here's another interesting and related piece that arrived on my computer
today

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/bespoke/be...n_whiskers.jsp

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...
Hi all

Friend of mine also in the electronic service business just called me to
tell of a conversation he had in the pub last night with one of his
friends.
Turns out this guy is a washing machine service engineer with his own
business of many years. He told my friend that from a business point of
view, he is delighted with lead-free solder, because in the last year or
so
it has boosted his profits significantly. This is because of the number of
bad joints that he now sees on items such as solenoids. He is firmly
convinced that the lead-free solder, being a harder material that doesn't
stick well in the first place to items with a large thermal inertia,
cannot
take the vibration that a washing machine subjects it to. This seems
altogether reasonable to me.

Just this morning, I have repaired a NAD CD player that would play for
anything between 5 and 45 minutes, before randomly failing. No amount of
physical provocation would bring on the fault, nor correct it when it
occured. It would need to be left off for about a half hour before it
would
play again. Just for sport, I tried a laser, but of course, that wasn't
it.
I then took the board out, and went over it with a headband magnifier. I
then found two perfect cracked-right-round joints on a connector. The
joints
had that traditional lead-free straight-sided volcano like shape. Once
these
had been attended to, and the original laser put back in, everything was
fine.

Is it just me, or does anyone else have concerns for the wider
implications
of this nonsense technology that has replaced a mature and reliable
technology in the dubious name of that new great ( and some would say
false
... ) god, "Green" ? If washing machines can vibrate these joints into
submission, I sincerely hope that the exemptions that the avionics and
automotive electronics industries currently enjoy, never get rescinded ...

Arfa



Perhaps we should offer the following service. What would it be called ?
From after day one, after expiry of warranty, while fully working order, go
inside any kit at owner's request and pre-emptively rework the usual
suspects.

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

N Cook wrote:


Perhaps we should offer the following service. What would it be called ?
From after day one, after expiry of warranty, while fully working order, go
inside any kit at owner's request and pre-emptively rework the usual
suspects.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me! If it aint broke, fix
it till it is broke.

Ron(UK)

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
N Cook wrote:


Perhaps we should offer the following service. What would it be called ?
From after day one, after expiry of warranty, while fully working order,
go
inside any kit at owner's request and pre-emptively rework the usual
suspects.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me! If it aint broke, fix it
till it is broke.

Ron(UK)

Hi Ron. Setting aside the tongue-in-cheek angle, when you think about it, we
have always done this really, haven't we ? Certainly, whenever a piece of
kit comes into my shop, whilst fixing it, I will at least check all of "the
usual suspects" - regulators, external connectors, power resistors,
transformers etc, and often rework the joints on them anyway, 'just in
case', particularly if there is any indication that they might be poor. I
guess it would fall under the description of "preventive maintenance" ... ??

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
N Cook wrote:


Perhaps we should offer the following service. What would it be called
?
From after day one, after expiry of warranty, while fully working
order,
go
inside any kit at owner's request and pre-emptively rework the usual
suspects.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me! If it aint broke, fix
it
till it is broke.

Ron(UK)

Hi Ron. Setting aside the tongue-in-cheek angle, when you think about it,
we
have always done this really, haven't we ? Certainly, whenever a piece of
kit comes into my shop, whilst fixing it, I will at least check all of
"the
usual suspects" - regulators, external connectors, power resistors,
transformers etc, and often rework the joints on them anyway, 'just in
case', particularly if there is any indication that they might be poor. I
guess it would fall under the description of "preventive maintenance" ...
??

Arfa



I wonder how many small heatsinks I've added to TO220 ps pass transistors at
the same time as having to resolder the overheated joints.


--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
N Cook wrote:

Perhaps we should offer the following service. What would it be called ?
From after day one, after expiry of warranty, while fully working order,
go
inside any kit at owner's request and pre-emptively rework the usual
suspects.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me! If it aint broke, fix it
till it is broke.

Ron(UK)

Hi Ron. Setting aside the tongue-in-cheek angle, when you think about it, we
have always done this really, haven't we ? Certainly, whenever a piece of
kit comes into my shop, whilst fixing it, I will at least check all of "the
usual suspects" - regulators, external connectors, power resistors,
transformers etc, and often rework the joints on them anyway, 'just in
case', particularly if there is any indication that they might be poor. I
guess it would fall under the description of "preventive maintenance" ... ??

Arfa


Oh absolutely, but I don't agree with opening up an item of equipment
unnecessarily unless I`m sure that there`s an impending problem. We all
know the most common failings in our individual fields and I`ll go round
the usual suspects simply as part of the overall repair if only to help
insure against a bounce from a problem unrelated to the original fault.

I certainly wouldn`t advertise such a service. Imagine, every tiny
thing that goes wrong from then on would be 'my fault' and obviously
would be under guarantee! (forever!)


Ron(UK)


--
Lune Valley Audio
Public Address Systems
Hire Sales Maintenance
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

Ron(UK) wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
N Cook wrote:

Perhaps we should offer the following service. What would it be called
?
From after day one, after expiry of warranty, while fully working
order,
go
inside any kit at owner's request and pre-emptively rework the usual
suspects.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me! If it aint broke, fix
it
till it is broke.

Ron(UK)

Hi Ron. Setting aside the tongue-in-cheek angle, when you think about
it, we
have always done this really, haven't we ? Certainly, whenever a piece
of
kit comes into my shop, whilst fixing it, I will at least check all of
"the
usual suspects" - regulators, external connectors, power resistors,
transformers etc, and often rework the joints on them anyway, 'just in
case', particularly if there is any indication that they might be poor.
I
guess it would fall under the description of "preventive maintenance"
.... ??

Arfa


Oh absolutely, but I don't agree with opening up an item of equipment
unnecessarily unless I`m sure that there`s an impending problem. We all
know the most common failings in our individual fields and I`ll go round
the usual suspects simply as part of the overall repair if only to help
insure against a bounce from a problem unrelated to the original fault.

I certainly wouldn`t advertise such a service. Imagine, every tiny
thing that goes wrong from then on would be 'my fault' and obviously
would be under guarantee! (forever!)


Ron(UK)


--
Lune Valley Audio
Public Address Systems
Hire Sales Maintenance
www.lunevalleyaudio.com

fair point

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Oh absolutely, but I don't agree with opening up an item of equipment
unnecessarily unless I`m sure that there`s an impending problem. We all
know the most common failings in our individual fields and I`ll go round
the usual suspects simply as part of the overall repair if only to help
insure against a bounce from a problem unrelated to the original fault.

I certainly wouldn`t advertise such a service. Imagine, every tiny
thing that goes wrong from then on would be 'my fault' and obviously
would be under guarantee! (forever!)


No one said that "Routine maintenance" is "Free maintenance". I
started several "Routine maintenance" programs while in the US Army for
electronics equipment to reduce downtime.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Oh absolutely, but I don't agree with opening up an item of equipment
unnecessarily unless I`m sure that there`s an impending problem. We all
know the most common failings in our individual fields and I`ll go round
the usual suspects simply as part of the overall repair if only to help
insure against a bounce from a problem unrelated to the original fault.

I certainly wouldn`t advertise such a service. Imagine, every tiny
thing that goes wrong from then on would be 'my fault' and obviously
would be under guarantee! (forever!)


No one said that "Routine maintenance" is "Free maintenance". I
started several "Routine maintenance" programs while in the US Army for
electronics equipment to reduce downtime.


That's a good point. Lots of things of course have routine maintenance -
your car or house furnace for instance. Also, thinking about it, I get lots
of items in for repair with "please service" on the repair ticket. We all
know that in most cases that we get such a request, there's going to be very
little in there that can be 'serviced', but I suppose that doesn't stop us
pulling the lid off anyway, just to look ...

I guess that the difference with your army kit, or a furnace or car, is that
a need for some routine service work has been shown and proven, and that
makes it of genuine benefit. Because a routine maintenance program is the
norm for items like this in the civilian world, it is perfectly normal for
car repair shops to offer "10,000 mile service for $x" or for a plumber /
heating engineer to offer "annual furnace service $y". In the case of the
army electronics gear, I'm guessing that it's a combination of taking care
of known issues with the kit, which probably spawned the need for the
program in the first place, and 'belt and braces', to ensure that the kit is
ready for full active service when needed ...

Arfa

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Oh absolutely, but I don't agree with opening up an item of equipment
unnecessarily unless I`m sure that there`s an impending problem. We all
know the most common failings in our individual fields and I`ll go round
the usual suspects simply as part of the overall repair if only to help
insure against a bounce from a problem unrelated to the original fault.

I certainly wouldn`t advertise such a service. Imagine, every tiny
thing that goes wrong from then on would be 'my fault' and obviously
would be under guarantee! (forever!)


No one said that "Routine maintenance" is "Free maintenance". I
started several "Routine maintenance" programs while in the US Army for
electronics equipment to reduce downtime.


That's a good point. Lots of things of course have routine maintenance -
your car or house furnace for instance. Also, thinking about it, I get lots
of items in for repair with "please service" on the repair ticket. We all
know that in most cases that we get such a request, there's going to be very
little in there that can be 'serviced', but I suppose that doesn't stop us
pulling the lid off anyway, just to look ...

I guess that the difference with your army kit, or a furnace or car, is that
a need for some routine service work has been shown and proven, and that
makes it of genuine benefit. Because a routine maintenance program is the
norm for items like this in the civilian world, it is perfectly normal for
car repair shops to offer "10,000 mile service for $x" or for a plumber /
heating engineer to offer "annual furnace service $y". In the case of the
army electronics gear, I'm guessing that it's a combination of taking care
of known issues with the kit, which probably spawned the need for the
program in the first place, and 'belt and braces', to ensure that the kit is
ready for full active service when needed ...

Arfa


Military "Preventive maintenance" is done on mission critical
equipment. We had over 300 vacuum tube 25" monochrome tv/video monitors
that were used for air traffic control, pilot ready rooms and classrooms
at Ft. Rucker's helicopter pilot training center. We also maintained 17
CATV and CARS systems to link multiple airfields and other areas. If
anything went down we had 15 minutes to find and repair the problem, or
the airfields were restricted to instrument rated pilots, only. That
meant instructors, because any pilot who had finished training was
transferred somewhere else, usually Vietnam. We had over 50 miles of
trunk, plus dozens of single channel microwave relay systems, and VERY
little spare equipment. Some of the older systems had no spares left,
yet were allowed zero scheduled downtime for maintenance. Its very
similar to being a TV broadcast engineer with studio and transmitter
sites scattered over a 50 mile range while trying your best for zero
downtime.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida