--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

Don

donskister wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

There often is an effect but many ( most ) products are made to work fine on either.

Maybe you could be more specific if you have a concern about this.

Graham

donskister wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

Don

Motors will turn at the wrong speed if not used at their rated Hz.
60Hz transformers can overheat if used at 50Hz. The lower the
frequency, the heavier the xformer (more iron, more wire).
Transformers can overheat There is a potentialfor

"donskister" wrote in message
oups.com...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60.

60 Hz needs less iron but has higher losses.

Bennett Price wrote:

donskister wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

Don

Motors will turn at the wrong speed if not used at their rated Hz.

Not all motors by any means.


60Hz transformers can overheat if used at 50Hz.

This is why most are designed to be 50/60 Hz.


The lower the
frequency, the heavier the xformer (more iron, more wire).
Transformers can overheat There is a potentialfor

Can being the relevant word. It depends on the product.

Graham

Eeyore writes:

donskister wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

There often is an effect but many ( most ) products are made to work fine on either.

Maybe you could be more specific if you have a concern about this.

Also see: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/pwrfaq.htm#ipslfi

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

donskister wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

Don

The US and some countries use 60hz, Canada uses 50hz or used to as does
Europe. Some countries use 30hz. The military uses 400hz power in many
applications.
What I don't get is how can the US grid be tied to the Canadian grid as
we sell power back and forth with different freqencies. I know they make
phase converters (that is how the military gets 400hz) but seems like a
gigantic waste converting back and forth.

Paul Bunion wrote:
donskister wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

Don

The US and some countries use 60hz, Canada uses 50hz or used to as does
Europe. Some countries use 30hz. The military uses 400hz power in many
applications.
What I don't get is how can the US grid be tied to the Canadian grid as
we sell power back and forth with different freqencies. I know they make
phase converters (that is how the military gets 400hz) but seems like a
gigantic waste converting back and forth.


Imagine plugging a 60hz motor into a 400hz outlet! You gonna crank some
rpm's.

"Paul Bunion" wrote in message
news:Mnodh.1977$QD3.212@trndny01...

The US and some countries use 60hz, Canada uses 50hz or used to

Nope. 60 Hz although some generators were 25 hertz (but no more - see
http://www.iaw.com/~falls/power.html)

"Paul Bunion" wrote in message
news:Ipodh.1978$QD3.444@trndny01...

Imagine plugging a 60hz motor into a 400hz outlet! You gonna crank some
rpm's.

400 is used for aircraft and in some specialized shops.

Paul Bunion wrote:

Some countries use 30hz

30 ?

Where ?

Graham

Paul Bunion wrote:

The military uses 400hz power in many
applications.

And aerospace. It keeps the weight of transformers down.

Graham

Paul Bunion wrote:
donskister wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

Don


The US and some countries use 60hz, Canada uses 50hz or used to as does
Europe. Some countries use 30hz. The military uses 400hz power in many
applications.
What I don't get is how can the US grid be tied to the Canadian grid as
we sell power back and forth with different freqencies. I know they make
phase converters (that is how the military gets 400hz) but seems like a
gigantic waste converting back and forth.



Canada has been 60Hz for as long as I've been alive. The power grid is
directly interconnected with the US grid.

Eeyore wrote:

Paul Bunion wrote:


The military uses 400hz power in many
applications.


And aerospace. It keeps the weight of transformers down.

Graham



Transformers, motors, alternators, it's all smaller.

James Sweet wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Paul Bunion wrote:

The military uses 400hz power in many
applications.

And aerospace. It keeps the weight of transformers down.

Graham

Transformers, motors, alternators, it's all smaller.

I hadn't thought of motors and alternators too.

The A380's using variable frequency alternators btw to make even further weight
savings.

Graham

Yeah, imagine having to make parts of niagara falls flow at
different rates to accommodate the two standards.

James Sweet wrote:

Canada has been 60Hz for as long as I've been alive. The power grid is
directly interconnected with the US grid.

No, not all motors -- but virtually any induction motor will
be affected, and there are lots of them out there. Even
electromechanical pinball machines were made with different
motors for 50 vs 60 hz.

And I'm not sure why you think "most" transformers are
designed to be used at 50 or 60 Hz. You would have to derate
them from 60 Hz operation making them bigger, heavier, and
more expensive. How much of your consumer electronics is
overdesigned?

Eeyore wrote:

Bennett Price wrote:

donskister wrote:

Motors will turn at the wrong speed if not used at their rated Hz.

Not all motors by any means.


60Hz transformers can overheat if used at 50Hz.

This is why most are designed to be 50/60 Hz.

Paul Bunion wrote:
donskister wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone...

Good day. Im noticed some devices like motors, appliances or any
electronic devices used differents rated of hertz liked our TV used 60
hertz some TV used 50 Hz others rated 50~60. I know that every
countries have there own standard of hertz...My question is there any
effect with the performance of a motor or any kind of electronic
devices if they used with different rate of hertz. Is the rate of hertz
has effect the design, size of the wire and number of turns of
wire..etc.. when creating a new electronic devices...

Don

The US and some countries use 60hz, Canada uses 50hz or used to as does
Europe. Some countries use 30hz. The military uses 400hz power in many
applications.
What I don't get is how can the US grid be tied to the Canadian grid as
we sell power back and forth with different freqencies. I know they make
phase converters (that is how the military gets 400hz) but seems like a
gigantic waste converting back and forth.

Canada converted to 60 Hz back in the 50's.
Regards
Lee in Toronto

M Berger wrote:

No, not all motors -- but virtually any induction motor will
be affected, and there are lots of them out there. Even
electromechanical pinball machines were made with different
motors for 50 vs 60 hz.

And I'm not sure why you think "most" transformers are
designed to be used at 50 or 60 Hz. You would have to derate
them from 60 Hz operation making them bigger, heavier, and
more expensive. How much of your consumer electronics is
overdesigned?

Suppliers to the world market usually design for 50/60 Hz since 60Hz use is
quite rare on the global scale of things.

60Hz only transformers tend to be the speciality of the USA.

Graham


Eeyore wrote:

Bennett Price wrote:

donskister wrote:

Motors will turn at the wrong speed if not used at their rated Hz.

Not all motors by any means.


60Hz transformers can overheat if used at 50Hz.

This is why most are designed to be 50/60 Hz.

Many long distance feeds are now HVDC, which deals with the frequency
difference problem just fine.

I believe parts of Japan are 50 Hz and other parts are 60.

I've never heard about 30 Hz, but the swedish railroads use 16 2/3 Hz
(50/3) for the trains. The store behind this was that that was such a
low frequency that they could use DC motors in the early electrical
locomotives.

I live by the railroad, and when I was using a CRT monitor I could see
when a train approached from the north, as the current to drive the
train induced a strong magnetic field at 16 2/3 Hz, and the picture
would wobble slightly.

Thomas Tornblom wrote:

Many long distance feeds are now HVDC, which deals with the frequency
difference problem just fine.

I believe parts of Japan are 50 Hz and other parts are 60.

I've never heard about 30 Hz, but the swedish railroads use 16 2/3 Hz
(50/3) for the trains. The store behind this was that that was such a
low frequency that they could use DC motors in the early electrical
locomotives.

I live by the railroad, and when I was using a CRT monitor I could see
when a train approached from the north, as the current to drive the
train induced a strong magnetic field at 16 2/3 Hz, and the picture
would wobble slightly.

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency. Low frequencies used in
traction improve the motors' starting torque, and of course this is
important.

I've got a very old domestic appliance that claims to handle 25Hz, but
where 25Hz was ever found in homes in UK I dont know. I wonder if a few
old private gen plants used it at the time, and they thought theyd
corner the market, but am far from convinced.


NT

On 6 Dec 2006 15:20:08 -0800, wrote:

Thomas Tornblom wrote:
would wobble slightly.

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency. Low frequencies used in
traction improve the motors' starting torque, and of course this is
important.

I've got a very old domestic appliance that claims to handle 25Hz, but
where 25Hz was ever found in homes in UK I dont know. I wonder if a few
old private gen plants used it at the time, and they thought theyd
corner the market, but am far from convinced.


NT

You did not mention what appliance it was that was rated also for
25hz, but all toasters, and radiators would easily be included in the
list, and these would also work on the ultimate low frequency (DC).

Although 25 Hz was mostly used for trains, a lot of railway housing
and stations were also using this frequency (seeing it was readily
available). And you could see the flicker in the lighting where 25Hz
was used.

Peter Dettmann

wrote in message
ups.com...

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency.

Not necessarily true. Clearly they work on ZF, and would continue to work
until the motor impedance became significant.

Eeyore wrote:

Paul Bunion wrote:

Some countries use 30hz

30 ?

Where ?

Graham


Actually, it was 25 Hz and it was used in areas around mines.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

writes:



Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency.

Well, that depends on the type of DC motor, doesn't it?

There are motors that work just fine on either AC or DC.

Here's an article that agrees with what I said:
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ntwothirds.php

Thomas Tornblom wrote:
writes:

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency.

Well, that depends on the type of DC motor, doesn't it?

There are motors that work just fine on either AC or DC.

then they arent dc motors. Not often one has to state something quite
that obvious.


NT

Homer J Simpson wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency.

Not necessarily true. Clearly they work on ZF,

yes

and would continue to work
until the motor impedance became significant.

no. A dc motor is by definition one that runs on dc only. Typically
these are permanent magnet motors, in which direction of rotation
depends on polarity. Motor impedance is not the issue. Motor impedance
is the issue with universal or ac/dc motors.


NT

writes:

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency. Low frequencies used in
traction improve the motors' starting torque, and of course this is
important.

Not quite true. Series wound DC motors (often called "universal" motors)
work on AC and DC. Frequency is a don't care. Often used in cheap appliances,
like mixers or hair dryers.

Steve.

--
Steven D. Swift, , http://www.novatech-instr.com
NOVATECH INSTRUMENTS, INC. P.O. Box 55997
206.301.8986, fax 206.363.4367 Seattle, Washington 98155 USA

(Steven Swift) writes:

writes:

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency. Low frequencies used in
traction improve the motors' starting torque, and of course this is
important.

Not quite true. Series wound DC motors (often called "universal" motors)
work on AC and DC. Frequency is a don't care. Often used in cheap appliances,
like mixers or hair dryers.

Engine starters are also frequently of this type. Perhaps less now
with permanent magnet gear starters.


Steve.

--
Steven D. Swift, , http://www.novatech-instr.com
NOVATECH INSTRUMENTS, INC. P.O. Box 55997
206.301.8986, fax 206.363.4367 Seattle, Washington 98155 USA


Thomas

wrote in message
oups.com...

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency.

Not necessarily true. Clearly they work on ZF,

yes

and would continue to work
until the motor impedance became significant.

no. A dc motor is by definition one that runs on dc only. Typically
these are permanent magnet motors, in which direction of rotation
depends on polarity. Motor impedance is not the issue. Motor impedance
is the issue with universal or ac/dc motors.

Nope. I doubt anyone has EVER built a traction motor with permanent magnets.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Thomas Tornblom wrote:
writes:

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency.

Well, that depends on the type of DC motor, doesn't it?

There are motors that work just fine on either AC or DC.

then they arent dc motors. Not often one has to state something quite
that obvious.

And yet they are called AC/DC motors. And run on either. Seems you need to
take a course - or two - before correcting others.

Eeyore wrote:

Suppliers to the world market usually design for 50/60 Hz since 60Hz use is
quite rare on the global scale of things.

60Hz only transformers tend to be the speciality of the USA.


Still trolling? Sci.electronics.design not big enough for all your
nonsense? What transformers are you talking about? Those cheap,
imported Chinese wall warts, or pole pigs? Just about everything else
is built with a SMPS. Why waste both iron and copper to build 50 Hz
transformers for the domestic market?

You just can't wait to get in another of your anti America digs, can
you?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Homer J Simpson wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Thomas Tornblom wrote:
writes:

Dc motors wont work on ac of any frequency.

Well, that depends on the type of DC motor, doesn't it?

There are motors that work just fine on either AC or DC.

then they arent dc motors. Not often one has to state something quite
that obvious.

And yet they are called AC/DC motors. And run on either.

precisely, not dc motors.


NT

M Berger wrote:
Yeah, imagine having to make parts of niagara falls flow at
different rates to accommodate the two standards.

James Sweet wrote:

Canada has been 60Hz for as long as I've been alive. The power grid is
directly interconnected with the US grid.

How do you think they control the frequency? They adjust the water
flow through the turbines to get the required speed. They have to match
the speed and phase of the grid before they can connect, then they
increase the water flow till the generator is producing the desired
current.

It would be very easy to change the speed, but it would make more
sense to use an alternator designed for the desired frequency.

wrote:

M Berger wrote:

Yeah, imagine having to make parts of niagara falls flow at
different rates to accommodate the two standards.

James Sweet wrote:


Canada has been 60Hz for as long as I've been alive. The power grid is
directly interconnected with the US grid.


How do you think they control the frequency? They adjust the water
flow through the turbines to get the required speed. They have to match
the speed and phase of the grid before they can connect, then they
increase the water flow till the generator is producing the desired
current.

It would be very easy to change the speed, but it would make more
sense to use an alternator designed for the desired frequency.

.... which one would then need to run at the correct speed.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"CJT" wrote in message
...
wrote:

It would be very easy to change the speed, but it would make more
sense to use an alternator designed for the desired frequency.

... which one would then need to run at the correct speed.

And it is (or was) the practice to run an AC clock off the output and trim
the speed to keep it at the correct time using another reference. That way
all of the AC clocks in town would stay in time.