My Onkyo TX 3000 stereo receiver went on the blink and I've had it in a local
repair shop for the past 3 months. The problem with the device is this. When you
push the on/off switch, nothing happens. Usually, once you turn it on, it will
be about a 2 or 3 second delay, you will hear a click sound and it powers up.
Well, that don't happen. Al the lights comes on, but that click sound never
materializes and NO SOUND. Anybody go a clue and is 3 months typically TOO Long
for a shop to take to repair???

"Waylon" wrote in message
...
My Onkyo TX 3000 stereo receiver went on the blink and I've had it in a
local
repair shop for the past 3 months. The problem with the device is this.
When you
push the on/off switch, nothing happens. Usually, once you turn it on, it
will
be about a 2 or 3 second delay, you will hear a click sound and it powers
up.
Well, that don't happen. Al the lights comes on, but that click sound
never
materializes and NO SOUND. Anybody go a clue and is 3 months typically TOO
Long
for a shop to take to repair???

I would suspect that the person who landed the job of looking at it, has '
lost his way ' a bit on it. It happens to us all sometimes, and it's usually
the slightly more obscure makes of this type of high end equipment, that it
happens on.

Basically, the failure of the unit to come on with the normal relay click,
means that the system control micro, is detecting some kind of fault
condition. This is what is being looked for by the system control during
that few seconds between you hitting the switch, and the relay closing to
complete the power up sequence. Often, it will be an output stage problem,
but this is where the fun and games can start. This kind of problem can
literally soak up hours of bench time, particularly if the unit has discrete
component output stages, and you don't have a schematic.

Having realised that you have spent half a day, and got nowhere, the
tendency is to cast it aside to get on with some jobs that will put food on
the table. You always promise yourself that you will look at it again on
Friday when you're less stressed, and in the meantime, will try to obtain a
service manual. Unfortunately, it never works like that, and this week turns
into next week, and then next month until it becomes an embarrassment, and
you start to dread the owner ringing up about it. Any other professionals
reading this will know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm willing to bet
that every one of us has been there at some time ...

I would suggest that you approach the shop where it is, and ask nicely what
the problem is. Suggest to them that if they are having too much of a
problem with it, that they just put it back together, and let you have it
back, as three months is not acceptable. If it's not fixed just because they
can't fix it, they shouldn't charge you anything. Most of us who are
reputable, work on a no fix no charge basis.

If the scenario is as I've described, they will probably appreciate your
direct approach and understanding. Providing that the person looking at it
is not a nonno, then as a fellow engineer, I have sympathy with him.

Arfa

I do thank you for your candor and honesty in your reply. I will talk to the
repair tech and express these sentiments and in a polite kind of way, ask for my
receiver back and get in the market for a replacement.

Again...Thank You.!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 23:26:00 GMT, "Arfa Daily" wrote:


"Waylon" wrote in message
.. .
My Onkyo TX 3000 stereo receiver went on the blink and I've had it in a
local
repair shop for the past 3 months. The problem with the device is this.
When you
push the on/off switch, nothing happens. Usually, once you turn it on, it
will
be about a 2 or 3 second delay, you will hear a click sound and it powers
up.
Well, that don't happen. Al the lights comes on, but that click sound
never
materializes and NO SOUND. Anybody go a clue and is 3 months typically TOO
Long
for a shop to take to repair???

I would suspect that the person who landed the job of looking at it, has '
lost his way ' a bit on it. It happens to us all sometimes, and it's usually
the slightly more obscure makes of this type of high end equipment, that it
happens on.

Basically, the failure of the unit to come on with the normal relay click,
means that the system control micro, is detecting some kind of fault
condition. This is what is being looked for by the system control during
that few seconds between you hitting the switch, and the relay closing to
complete the power up sequence. Often, it will be an output stage problem,
but this is where the fun and games can start. This kind of problem can
literally soak up hours of bench time, particularly if the unit has discrete
component output stages, and you don't have a schematic.

Having realised that you have spent half a day, and got nowhere, the
tendency is to cast it aside to get on with some jobs that will put food on
the table. You always promise yourself that you will look at it again on
Friday when you're less stressed, and in the meantime, will try to obtain a
service manual. Unfortunately, it never works like that, and this week turns
into next week, and then next month until it becomes an embarrassment, and
you start to dread the owner ringing up about it. Any other professionals
reading this will know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm willing to bet
that every one of us has been there at some time ...

I would suggest that you approach the shop where it is, and ask nicely what
the problem is. Suggest to them that if they are having too much of a
problem with it, that they just put it back together, and let you have it
back, as three months is not acceptable. If it's not fixed just because they
can't fix it, they shouldn't charge you anything. Most of us who are
reputable, work on a no fix no charge basis.

If the scenario is as I've described, they will probably appreciate your
direct approach and understanding. Providing that the person looking at it
is not a nonno, then as a fellow engineer, I have sympathy with him.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Waylon" wrote in message
...
My Onkyo TX 3000 stereo receiver went on the blink and I've had it in a
local
repair shop for the past 3 months. The problem with the device is this.
When you
push the on/off switch, nothing happens. Usually, once you turn it on, it
will
be about a 2 or 3 second delay, you will hear a click sound and it powers
up.
Well, that don't happen. Al the lights comes on, but that click sound
never
materializes and NO SOUND. Anybody go a clue and is 3 months typically
TOO Long
for a shop to take to repair???

I would suspect that the person who landed the job of looking at it, has '
lost his way ' a bit on it. It happens to us all sometimes, and it's
usually the slightly more obscure makes of this type of high end
equipment, that it happens on.

Basically, the failure of the unit to come on with the normal relay click,
means that the system control micro, is detecting some kind of fault
condition. This is what is being looked for by the system control during
that few seconds between you hitting the switch, and the relay closing to
complete the power up sequence. Often, it will be an output stage problem,
but this is where the fun and games can start. This kind of problem can
literally soak up hours of bench time, particularly if the unit has
discrete component output stages, and you don't have a schematic.

Having realised that you have spent half a day, and got nowhere, the
tendency is to cast it aside to get on with some jobs that will put food
on the table. You always promise yourself that you will look at it again
on Friday when you're less stressed, and in the meantime, will try to
obtain a service manual. Unfortunately, it never works like that, and this
week turns into next week, and then next month until it becomes an
embarrassment, and you start to dread the owner ringing up about it. Any
other professionals reading this will know exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm willing to bet that every one of us has been there at some time ...

I would suggest that you approach the shop where it is, and ask nicely
what the problem is. Suggest to them that if they are having too much of a
problem with it, that they just put it back together, and let you have it
back, as three months is not acceptable. If it's not fixed just because
they can't fix it, they shouldn't charge you anything. Most of us who are
reputable, work on a no fix no charge basis.

If the scenario is as I've described, they will probably appreciate your
direct approach and understanding. Providing that the person looking at it
is not a nonno, then as a fellow engineer, I have sympathy with him.

Arfa


I'm pretty sure this model is a bit old to have a microprocessor-controlled
protection circuit. More likely just an analog DC detect / overcurrent
detect circuit.

As far as "no fix no charge" is concerned, in my shop the initial check-out
fee is non-refundable except in extraordinary circumstances. Three months
time unable to fix might not qualify, but three months getting a runaround
would, in my opinion.

Mark Z.

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Waylon" wrote in message
...
My Onkyo TX 3000 stereo receiver went on the blink and I've had it in a
local
repair shop for the past 3 months. The problem with the device is this.
When you
push the on/off switch, nothing happens. Usually, once you turn it on,
it will
be about a 2 or 3 second delay, you will hear a click sound and it
powers up.
Well, that don't happen. Al the lights comes on, but that click sound
never
materializes and NO SOUND. Anybody go a clue and is 3 months typically
TOO Long
for a shop to take to repair???

I would suspect that the person who landed the job of looking at it, has
' lost his way ' a bit on it. It happens to us all sometimes, and it's
usually the slightly more obscure makes of this type of high end
equipment, that it happens on.

Basically, the failure of the unit to come on with the normal relay
click, means that the system control micro, is detecting some kind of
fault condition. This is what is being looked for by the system control
during that few seconds between you hitting the switch, and the relay
closing to complete the power up sequence. Often, it will be an output
stage problem, but this is where the fun and games can start. This kind
of problem can literally soak up hours of bench time, particularly if the
unit has discrete component output stages, and you don't have a
schematic.

Having realised that you have spent half a day, and got nowhere, the
tendency is to cast it aside to get on with some jobs that will put food
on the table. You always promise yourself that you will look at it again
on Friday when you're less stressed, and in the meantime, will try to
obtain a service manual. Unfortunately, it never works like that, and
this week turns into next week, and then next month until it becomes an
embarrassment, and you start to dread the owner ringing up about it. Any
other professionals reading this will know exactly what I'm talking
about. I'm willing to bet that every one of us has been there at some
time ...

I would suggest that you approach the shop where it is, and ask nicely
what the problem is. Suggest to them that if they are having too much of
a problem with it, that they just put it back together, and let you have
it back, as three months is not acceptable. If it's not fixed just
because they can't fix it, they shouldn't charge you anything. Most of us
who are reputable, work on a no fix no charge basis.

If the scenario is as I've described, they will probably appreciate your
direct approach and understanding. Providing that the person looking at
it is not a nonno, then as a fellow engineer, I have sympathy with him.

Arfa


I'm pretty sure this model is a bit old to have a
microprocessor-controlled protection circuit. More likely just an analog
DC detect / overcurrent detect circuit.

As far as "no fix no charge" is concerned, in my shop the initial
check-out fee is non-refundable except in extraordinary circumstances.
Three months time unable to fix might not qualify, but three months
getting a runaround would, in my opinion.

Mark Z.


Yeah, I know what you're saying, Mark. It's always a difficult one as to
whether there should be a standard charge applied to a no-go repair. I tend
to work along the lines that if it can't be fixed because there is no
service info available, and I've spent time trying to work around that fact,
then it is chargeable at the base examination rate. Likewise, if it can't be
fixed because of lack of spares. But, except in some special circumstances,
if I can't fix it simply because I personally can't get to the bottom of the
problem - and no matter how good we think we are, it happens to us all
occasionally - then I don't feel that it is justified to charge the owner
for my lack of ability in his particular case. I'm probably too soft for my
own good, but I always think that if the owner had taken it to my mate down
the road, he would have been able to fix it. ( he probably wouldn't 'cause
I'm better than him ( !! ) ) but still, the thought is always there.

The trick is to realise early on when you are beat, and not to waste so much
time, but none of us likes to admit defeat, and the answer is always just
two more voltage checks away, isn't it ... ?

And yes, you're probably right about the protect circuit. In fact now I come
to think of it, I have a dim recollection of having one of these, or a
similar vintage Onkyo, come across my bench some long time ago, with a
similar problem. It turned out to be the delay cap on the protect IC ( one
of those little 9 pin SIL things ) that was the problem. It had leaked, and
the electrolyte had attacked the timing resistor that was nearby. Cleaning
up and replacing those two items cured it.

Arfa

if I can't fix it simply because I personally can't get to the bottom of
the problem - and no matter how good we think we are, it happens to us all
occasionally - then I don't feel that it is justified to charge the owner
for my lack of ability in his particular case.


That's why we charge it as in initial check-out fee. The idea is that the
checkout fee applies to all units equally and covers fixed and other
operating costs of the shop - Yellow Pages ad, utilities, etc. This is
explained up front and the large majority of customers are OK with it, so
long as it applies to a completed repair. Since we went to this policy
several years ago, our financial standing has improved considerably.

The checkout fee is only refunded on rare occasions. I will write the refund
check to avoid an argument, even if the customer is being unreasonable,
since I feel any time spent arguing is too valuable, and can be better spent
elsewhere, i.e. fixing the next piece o' crap on the bench.


Mark Z.

************************************************** *******

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Waylon" wrote in message
...
My Onkyo TX 3000 stereo receiver went on the blink and I've had it in a
local
repair shop for the past 3 months. The problem with the device is this.
When you
push the on/off switch, nothing happens. Usually, once you turn it on,
it will
be about a 2 or 3 second delay, you will hear a click sound and it
powers up.
Well, that don't happen. Al the lights comes on, but that click sound
never
materializes and NO SOUND. Anybody go a clue and is 3 months typically
TOO Long
for a shop to take to repair???

I would suspect that the person who landed the job of looking at it, has
' lost his way ' a bit on it. It happens to us all sometimes, and it's
usually the slightly more obscure makes of this type of high end
equipment, that it happens on.

Basically, the failure of the unit to come on with the normal relay
click, means that the system control micro, is detecting some kind of
fault condition. This is what is being looked for by the system control
during that few seconds between you hitting the switch, and the relay
closing to complete the power up sequence. Often, it will be an output
stage problem, but this is where the fun and games can start. This kind
of problem can literally soak up hours of bench time, particularly if
the unit has discrete component output stages, and you don't have a
schematic.

Having realised that you have spent half a day, and got nowhere, the
tendency is to cast it aside to get on with some jobs that will put food
on the table. You always promise yourself that you will look at it again
on Friday when you're less stressed, and in the meantime, will try to
obtain a service manual. Unfortunately, it never works like that, and
this week turns into next week, and then next month until it becomes an
embarrassment, and you start to dread the owner ringing up about it. Any
other professionals reading this will know exactly what I'm talking
about. I'm willing to bet that every one of us has been there at some
time ...

I would suggest that you approach the shop where it is, and ask nicely
what the problem is. Suggest to them that if they are having too much of
a problem with it, that they just put it back together, and let you have
it back, as three months is not acceptable. If it's not fixed just
because they can't fix it, they shouldn't charge you anything. Most of
us who are reputable, work on a no fix no charge basis.

If the scenario is as I've described, they will probably appreciate your
direct approach and understanding. Providing that the person looking at
it is not a nonno, then as a fellow engineer, I have sympathy with him.

Arfa


I'm pretty sure this model is a bit old to have a
microprocessor-controlled protection circuit. More likely just an analog
DC detect / overcurrent detect circuit.

As far as "no fix no charge" is concerned, in my shop the initial
check-out fee is non-refundable except in extraordinary circumstances.
Three months time unable to fix might not qualify, but three months
getting a runaround would, in my opinion.

Mark Z.


Yeah, I know what you're saying, Mark. It's always a difficult one as to
whether there should be a standard charge applied to a no-go repair. I
tend to work along the lines that if it can't be fixed because there is no
service info available, and I've spent time trying to work around that
fact, then it is chargeable at the base examination rate. Likewise, if it
can't be fixed because of lack of spares. But, except in some special
circumstances, if I can't fix it simply because I personally can't get to
the bottom of the problem - and no matter how good we think we are, it
happens to us all occasionally - then I don't feel that it is justified to
charge the owner for my lack of ability in his particular case. I'm
probably too soft for my own good, but I always think that if the owner
had taken it to my mate down the road, he would have been able to fix it.
( he probably wouldn't 'cause I'm better than him ( !! ) ) but still, the
thought is always there.

The trick is to realise early on when you are beat, and not to waste so
much time, but none of us likes to admit defeat, and the answer is always
just two more voltage checks away, isn't it ... ?

And yes, you're probably right about the protect circuit. In fact now I
come to think of it, I have a dim recollection of having one of these, or
a similar vintage Onkyo, come across my bench some long time ago, with a
similar problem. It turned out to be the delay cap on the protect IC ( one
of those little 9 pin SIL things ) that was the problem. It had leaked,
and the electrolyte had attacked the timing resistor that was nearby.
Cleaning up and replacing those two items cured it.

Arfa

Well said, Mark. I can only think of one instance where we refunded a
check-out fee, and it was exactly for the reason that you gave. We make a
very deliberate effort to make people understand up front and have little
problems. Even if we can't figure out the problem, we put time into ruling
things out and making the evaluation, handling the unit, being responsible
for it while in our possesion, using the space and time that could have been
dedicated to other jobs, and likely using more time than an actual repair.
Most of the time, if a tech who is skillful can't figure out a problem, it
is because of less than adequate documentation or the nature of the problem
is such that it becomes clear that excessive time and cost in parts will be
needed to proceed effectively. Just coming to that conclusion has value to
the client and uses resources that cost real money.

Does a doctor give you a refund if he can't diagnose your problem? They
don't even give you a refund if they screw up the diagnosis and have to see
you again, they charge you. The even charge again for redoing work that
they didn't get right the first time.

Now there are lots of so-called techs that have no clue how to diagnose and
fix a problem and who are happy to charge an estimate fee to just tell the
client that the unit is not repairable or give them a ridiculously high
estimate. Reputable businesses don't operate this way. We are not in the
business of collecting estimate fees and not solving problems. We steer
people away from even paying for an estimate at the counter if we think the
problem is going to require excessive cost or if it is a product that we are
not familiar enough with to give an effective estimate. If they insist on
our evaluation, they understand that the fee for our service is not
refundable.

Leonard


"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
t...
if I can't fix it simply because I personally can't get to the bottom of
the problem - and no matter how good we think we are, it happens to us
all occasionally - then I don't feel that it is justified to charge the
owner for my lack of ability in his particular case.


That's why we charge it as in initial check-out fee. The idea is that the
checkout fee applies to all units equally and covers fixed and other
operating costs of the shop - Yellow Pages ad, utilities, etc. This is
explained up front and the large majority of customers are OK with it, so
long as it applies to a completed repair. Since we went to this policy
several years ago, our financial standing has improved considerably.

The checkout fee is only refunded on rare occasions. I will write the
refund check to avoid an argument, even if the customer is being
unreasonable, since I feel any time spent arguing is too valuable, and can
be better spent elsewhere, i.e. fixing the next piece o' crap on the
bench.


Mark Z.

************************************************** *******

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

"Waylon" wrote in message
...
My Onkyo TX 3000 stereo receiver went on the blink and I've had it in
a local
repair shop for the past 3 months. The problem with the device is
this. When you
push the on/off switch, nothing happens. Usually, once you turn it on,
it will
be about a 2 or 3 second delay, you will hear a click sound and it
powers up.
Well, that don't happen. Al the lights comes on, but that click sound
never
materializes and NO SOUND. Anybody go a clue and is 3 months typically
TOO Long
for a shop to take to repair???

I would suspect that the person who landed the job of looking at it,
has ' lost his way ' a bit on it. It happens to us all sometimes, and
it's usually the slightly more obscure makes of this type of high end
equipment, that it happens on.

Basically, the failure of the unit to come on with the normal relay
click, means that the system control micro, is detecting some kind of
fault condition. This is what is being looked for by the system control
during that few seconds between you hitting the switch, and the relay
closing to complete the power up sequence. Often, it will be an output
stage problem, but this is where the fun and games can start. This kind
of problem can literally soak up hours of bench time, particularly if
the unit has discrete component output stages, and you don't have a
schematic.

Having realised that you have spent half a day, and got nowhere, the
tendency is to cast it aside to get on with some jobs that will put
food on the table. You always promise yourself that you will look at it
again on Friday when you're less stressed, and in the meantime, will
try to obtain a service manual. Unfortunately, it never works like
that, and this week turns into next week, and then next month until it
becomes an embarrassment, and you start to dread the owner ringing up
about it. Any other professionals reading this will know exactly what
I'm talking about. I'm willing to bet that every one of us has been
there at some time ...

I would suggest that you approach the shop where it is, and ask nicely
what the problem is. Suggest to them that if they are having too much
of a problem with it, that they just put it back together, and let you
have it back, as three months is not acceptable. If it's not fixed just
because they can't fix it, they shouldn't charge you anything. Most of
us who are reputable, work on a no fix no charge basis.

If the scenario is as I've described, they will probably appreciate
your direct approach and understanding. Providing that the person
looking at it is not a nonno, then as a fellow engineer, I have
sympathy with him.

Arfa


I'm pretty sure this model is a bit old to have a
microprocessor-controlled protection circuit. More likely just an analog
DC detect / overcurrent detect circuit.

As far as "no fix no charge" is concerned, in my shop the initial
check-out fee is non-refundable except in extraordinary circumstances.
Three months time unable to fix might not qualify, but three months
getting a runaround would, in my opinion.

Mark Z.


Yeah, I know what you're saying, Mark. It's always a difficult one as to
whether there should be a standard charge applied to a no-go repair. I
tend to work along the lines that if it can't be fixed because there is
no service info available, and I've spent time trying to work around that
fact, then it is chargeable at the base examination rate. Likewise, if it
can't be fixed because of lack of spares. But, except in some special
circumstances, if I can't fix it simply because I personally can't get to
the bottom of the problem - and no matter how good we think we are, it
happens to us all occasionally - then I don't feel that it is justified
to charge the owner for my lack of ability in his particular case. I'm
probably too soft for my own good, but I always think that if the owner
had taken it to my mate down the road, he would have been able to fix it.
( he probably wouldn't 'cause I'm better than him ( !! ) ) but still, the
thought is always there.

The trick is to realise early on when you are beat, and not to waste so
much time, but none of us likes to admit defeat, and the answer is always
just two more voltage checks away, isn't it ... ?

And yes, you're probably right about the protect circuit. In fact now I
come to think of it, I have a dim recollection of having one of these, or
a similar vintage Onkyo, come across my bench some long time ago, with a
similar problem. It turned out to be the delay cap on the protect IC (
one of those little 9 pin SIL things ) that was the problem. It had
leaked, and the electrolyte had attacked the timing resistor that was
nearby. Cleaning up and replacing those two items cured it.

Arfa

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in message
news:XJQsf.35804$Mi5.29149@dukeread07...
Well said, Mark. I can only think of one instance where we refunded a
check-out fee, and it was exactly for the reason that you gave. We make a
very deliberate effort to make people understand up front and have little
problems. Even if we can't figure out the problem, we put time into
ruling things out and making the evaluation, handling the unit, being
responsible for it while in our possesion, using the space and time that
could have been dedicated to other jobs, and likely using more time than
an actual repair. Most of the time, if a tech who is skillful can't figure
out a problem, it is because of less than adequate documentation or the
nature of the problem is such that it becomes clear that excessive time
and cost in parts will be needed to proceed effectively. Just coming to
that conclusion has value to the client and uses resources that cost real
money.

Does a doctor give you a refund if he can't diagnose your problem? They
don't even give you a refund if they screw up the diagnosis and have to
see you again, they charge you. The even charge again for redoing work
that they didn't get right the first time.

Now there are lots of so-called techs that have no clue how to diagnose
and fix a problem and who are happy to charge an estimate fee to just tell
the client that the unit is not repairable or give them a ridiculously
high estimate. Reputable businesses don't operate this way. We are not
in the business of collecting estimate fees and not solving problems. We
steer people away from even paying for an estimate at the counter if we
think the problem is going to require excessive cost or if it is a product
that we are not familiar enough with to give an effective estimate. If
they insist on our evaluation, they understand that the fee for our
service is not refundable.

Leonard


"Mark D. Zacharias" wrote in message
t...
if I can't fix it simply because I personally can't get to the bottom
of the problem - and no matter how good we think we are, it happens to
us all occasionally - then I don't feel that it is justified to charge
the
owner for my lack of ability in his particular case.


That's why we charge it as in initial check-out fee. The idea is that the
checkout fee applies to all units equally and covers fixed and other
operating costs of the shop - Yellow Pages ad, utilities, etc. This is
explained up front and the large majority of customers are OK with it, so
long as it applies to a completed repair. Since we went to this policy
several years ago, our financial standing has improved considerably.

The checkout fee is only refunded on rare occasions. I will write the
refund check to avoid an argument, even if the customer is being
unreasonable, since I feel any time spent arguing is too valuable, and
can be better spent elsewhere, i.e. fixing the next piece o' crap on the
bench.


Mark Z.

************************************************** *******
I'm basically agreeing with all you are saying, and I find that I am not
charging for work only rarely. All I am saying is that we all get it wrong
sometimes, and then, under some circumstances, it seems the " right " thing
is not to charge the fee.

I'm probably in a slightly different position in that most of my work is
trade, so I don't get involved too much with the general public. That said,
over this side of the pond, it's long been a
' tradition ' in the electronic repair trade, for companies to offer " free
estimates ". Most of us have been working hard over the last few years to
get this changed, and the public are coming round to accepting it, slowly. I
really don't know why it is this way, though. Nobody here would expect to
take their car to a repair shop, and then take it away again at no charge,
to " have a think about it "

Arfa