[Dave Plowman (News)]

I have some car bits which are rusty and no longer available new.
Secondhand parts are likely no better. They aren't structural - they just
hold the rubber seal to the sunroof. Don't even show. Too complicated a
pressing to make new - or at least for me. I cleaned some down to bare
metal, treated with Jenolite, sprayed on zinc rich primer and finished
with chassis black. Some three years later they're rusty again.
I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the best
way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home kit? Or
any other tips?

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:11:40 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I have some car bits which are rusty and no longer available new.
Secondhand parts are likely no better. They aren't structural - they just
hold the rubber seal to the sunroof. Don't even show. Too complicated a
pressing to make new - or at least for me. I cleaned some down to bare
metal, treated with Jenolite, sprayed on zinc rich primer and finished
with chassis black. Some three years later they're rusty again.
I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the best
way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home kit? Or
any other tips?

Easy to copper plate the things. A handful of copper sulphate and a
couple of AA batteries would do. (Unless copper sulphate is considered
useful for terrorism)

Problem would be cleaning the things to plate.

[Andy Dingley]

On 22 Nov, 01:15, wrote:

Easy to copper plate the things.

Easy yes, but it will also _encourage_ corrosion. You're using an
acid process (it doesn't work without a splash of conc sulphuric acid
in there too) and this will lead to sub-plating pitting developing,
eventually breaking through.

If you want to copper plate, your easiest approach is often to nickel
plate it first. Try reading the Caswell book for advice.

Avoid Jenolite, as it's too dilute and although it cleans rust, it
also corrodes the steel. Either use glacial phosphoric (hydroponics
shop) or even better, a proprietary deruster with tannins added
(usually opaque white, not clear or pink).

Mostly though, I'd look askance at the quality of your zinc rich
primer. Try Davids 182 for a good one.

[geoff]

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
I have some car bits which are rusty and no longer available new.
Secondhand parts are likely no better. They aren't structural - they just
hold the rubber seal to the sunroof. Don't even show. Too complicated a
pressing to make new - or at least for me. I cleaned some down to bare
metal, treated with Jenolite, sprayed on zinc rich primer and finished
with chassis black. Some three years later they're rusty again.
I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the best
way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home kit? Or
any other tips?

Chuck them up to me, I'll stick them in with my metalwork for plating


--
geoff

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Huge wrote:
POR15

Just Googled on this and Rustbullet claim to better it. ;-)
That's the problem with this sort of thing.

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
Avoid Jenolite, as it's too dilute and although it cleans rust, it
also corrodes the steel. Either use glacial phosphoric (hydroponics
shop) or even better, a proprietary deruster with tannins added
(usually opaque white, not clear or pink).

That's fine but asking in a shop for a 'proprietary deruster' would likely
get you something like Jenolite. ;-) Any brand names?

Mostly though, I'd look askance at the quality of your zinc rich
primer. Try Davids 182 for a good one.

Can't remember what I used.

--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[The Medway Handyman]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have some car bits which are rusty and no longer available new.
Secondhand parts are likely no better. They aren't structural - they
just hold the rubber seal to the sunroof. Don't even show. Too
complicated a pressing to make new - or at least for me. I cleaned
some down to bare metal, treated with Jenolite, sprayed on zinc rich
primer and finished with chassis black. Some three years later
they're rusty again.
I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the
best way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home
kit? Or any other tips?

Loctite do a product that apparently converts rust to something black, never
used it, heard its good though.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ...id=47&plid=168


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Andy Dingley]

On 22 Nov, 10:27, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

That's fine but asking in a shop for a 'proprietary deruster' would likely
get you something like Jenolite. ;-) Any brand names?

If you ask at a sensible shop like County Industrial in Cwmbran, the
price of a thimbleful of Jenolite buys you a gallon can of something
white label made by the Ephraim Hardcastle "Victoria" works in
Cleckheaton, as they've done for the last 100 years. It looks like
milk, it turns rust black and it's cheap enough to dip a Landrover in
it.

In Halfrauds, I think it's by Loctite in little blue bottles. Still
white.

[Bruce[_8_]]

On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:10:22 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have some car bits which are rusty and no longer available new.
Secondhand parts are likely no better. They aren't structural - they
just hold the rubber seal to the sunroof. Don't even show. Too
complicated a pressing to make new - or at least for me. I cleaned
some down to bare metal, treated with Jenolite, sprayed on zinc rich
primer and finished with chassis black. Some three years later
they're rusty again.
I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the
best way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home
kit? Or any other tips?

Loctite do a product that apparently converts rust to something black, never
used it, heard its good though.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ...id=47&plid=168


Sounds exactly like Kurust.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "The Medway Handyman"
saying something like:

Loctite do a product that apparently converts rust to something black, never
used it, heard its good though.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ...id=47&plid=168

Probably phosphoric acid.
Dirt cheap to buy the raw stuff.

[Peter Parry]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:11:40 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the best
way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home kit? Or
any other tips?

Firstly get rid of all the rust. If the size permits the best way of
doing this is electrolytic de-rusting as this does not effect the bare
metal.

http://www.remap-internet.org.uk/remapedia/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=59

If the items still have some paint on you may need to wire brush the
piece several times at intervals of about 12-24 hours in the derusting
process to get rid of all the poorly adhering paint at the rust edges.

After washing and drying you can use whatever undercoat you like
followed by topcoat. As the electrolytic derusting gets rid of all
traces of active rust the paint cover is much more effective than it
would be on most chemically treated pieces where some rust nearly
always remains and starts again after a few months (or less).

[geoff]

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have some car bits which are rusty and no longer available new.
Secondhand parts are likely no better. They aren't structural - they
just hold the rubber seal to the sunroof. Don't even show. Too
complicated a pressing to make new - or at least for me. I cleaned
some down to bare metal, treated with Jenolite, sprayed on zinc rich
primer and finished with chassis black. Some three years later
they're rusty again.
I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the
best way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home
kit? Or any other tips?

Loctite do a product that apparently converts rust to something black, never
used it, heard its good though.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ...id=47&plid=168


That's the phosphoric acid

got 5l of it here lying around

--
geoff

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:11:40 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I cleaned some down to bare metal, treated with Jenolite,

Is that something akin to Kurust? I've had good results with that
stopping/converting corrsion.

sprayed on zinc rich primer

Obviously not that zinc rich or not in glavanic contact with the
steel.

Drygalv does the business here. Ground off head of a bolt used as a
gate latch has not rusted. Similary shed bought washers bolts drop
latches on the trailer that is outside 24/7 and has been for a few
years. Admitedly they are also "zinc plated" but we all know how
useless that is when outside 24/7...

Drygalv has a couple of drawbacks: It is expensive (IIRC I paid about
a tenner for a small 250ml? tin) and is rather soft as a paint but it
does work.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Mark]

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 22 Nov, 01:15, wrote:

Easy to copper plate the things.

Easy yes, but it will also _encourage_ corrosion.
If you want to copper plate, your easiest approach is often to nickel
plate it first. Try reading the Caswell book for advice.

Avoid Jenolite,

agreed


Mostly though, I'd look askance at the quality of your zinc rich
primer. Try Davids 182 for a good one.

I use Bondaprime, much favoured by the boating-fishing fraternity.
This is a rusty _steel_ milk churn I painted with it some 20 years ago and
its been outside ever since, never did get round to giving it a top coat.
but a good test as to how good a primer is.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2crt82t.jpg

-

[Andy Dingley]

On 22 Nov, 12:45, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

Loctite do a product that apparently converts rust to something black, never
used it, heard its good though.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ...d=13&subid=47&...

Probably phosphoric acid.

....and the rest.

[js.b1]

Get rid of rust...
- 3M Clean-n-Strip XT (purple) are great at getting a bright Sa2.5
finish with a cheap cordless drill
- Combine use with Loctite white milky stuff (goes black) to get into
pores to help neutralise what you can't get to

Zinc protection...
- Galvafroid - pure zinc so truly protects, £25 per tin that weighs
like a neutron star, rubs off, requires blackfriars galvanising primer
before painting
- Dinitrol - Lower zinc so lesser protection, more abrasion
resistance, easier to spray-prime & paint

It comes down to how rusted and what final finish.

Frost's Restoration do 3M clean-n-strip discs and etch sprays if just
surface corrosion, then primer (fill in imperfections), paint,
polishing compound and wax after a few weeks.

Zinga (think that is right) is an improvement on Galvafroid, but the
best is 2pk (or lesser 1pk) zinc epoxy primer at £30-55. Colleague
used 1pk zinc epoxy primer on a windscreen surround that had been
wrecked years earlier by an windscreen removal tool in the hands of an
idiot main dealer. No rust progression (or leaks) after several years,
he also saturated the underside of the windscreen trim with 3M 08509
non-setting black butyl goo in a cartridge for a belt-n-braces backup.

[Adrian]

"js.b1" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Zinga (think that is right) is an improvement on Galvafroid

I asked more-or-less the OP's exact question of a supplier of both Zinga
& Galvafroid. Their answer as to which was best?

In the context of used car suspension parts, cleaned up with power wire
brush, they said... neither. Both of those require REALLY clean - freshly
blasted - steel to give of their best. For this job, they recommended
Rustoleum 769 primer.

[js.b1]

On Nov 22, 9:42*pm, Adrian wrote:
Both of those require REALLY clean - freshly blasted
steel to give of their best.

Indeed, freshly blasted is Sa2, bright mirror is Sa2.5.

You can get Sa2.5 on lightly corroded auto steel with a 3M clean-n-
strip.
An example would be a scrape which has been neglected such that paint
has domed and gone brittle in the surrounding area, underneath you
will find dark millscale which the 3M Clean-n-Strip cleans out to
leave bright shiny metal as a broad crater of limited depth. Then
either zinc product works superbly at stopping corrosion dead - but
are mechanically weak. You need galvanising primer, then normal car
paint, but it is still a weak underlying area.

For this job, they recommended
Rustoleum 769 primer.

Good and that tackles the weakness of pure zinc products (they are
meant for freshly drilled or ground welds on RSJ, where you want the
longest life but also where abrasion resistance is immaterial).

You can buy miniature sand blasting kits; exactly like a paint air
sprayer, plug in to a compressor, will blast small areas for auto
repair etc. Add-ons for pressure washers also exist of course.

[geoff]

In message
,
js.b1 writes
On Nov 22, 9:42*pm, Adrian wrote:
Both of those require REALLY clean - freshly blasted
steel to give of their best.

Indeed, freshly blasted is Sa2, bright mirror is Sa2.5.

Dave, you can always pop up and use my blast cabinet if you're so
inclined

--
geoff

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
geoff wrote:
In message
,
js.b1 writes
On Nov 22, 9:42 pm, Adrian wrote:
Both of those require REALLY clean - freshly blasted
steel to give of their best.

Indeed, freshly blasted is Sa2, bright mirror is Sa2.5.

Dave, you can always pop up and use my blast cabinet if you're so
inclined

That could be very helpful as there's no real rush. Is it sand or
something more gentle? They are small enough to post. I've tried finding a
local firm that can do this without success. I've heard of the domestic
ones but I don't have a compressor or really anywhere to put one. The joys
of living in central London. ;-)

--
*Remember, no-one is listening until you fart.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[geoff]

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
geoff wrote:
In message
,
js.b1 writes
On Nov 22, 9:42 pm, Adrian wrote:
Both of those require REALLY clean - freshly blasted
steel to give of their best.

Indeed, freshly blasted is Sa2, bright mirror is Sa2.5.

Dave, you can always pop up and use my blast cabinet if you're so
inclined

That could be very helpful as there's no real rush. Is it sand or
something more gentle?

150-250 micron glass beads is what I use

They are small enough to post. I've tried finding a
local firm that can do this without success. I've heard of the domestic
ones but I don't have a compressor or really anywhere to put one.

200l reservoir built out of a kitchen sink and (here's your special
interest) Bass speaker cabinet

The joys
of living in central London. ;-)


20 mins Euston to Watford by train


--
geoff

[Adrian]

"js.b1" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Both of those require REALLY clean - freshly blasted steel to give of
their best.

Indeed, freshly blasted is Sa2, bright mirror is Sa2.5.

You can get Sa2.5 on lightly corroded auto steel with a 3M clean-n-
strip.
An example would be a scrape which has been neglected such that paint
has domed and gone brittle in the surrounding area, underneath you will
find dark millscale which the 3M Clean-n-Strip cleans out to leave
bright shiny metal as a broad crater of limited depth. Then either zinc
product works superbly at stopping corrosion dead - but are mechanically
weak. You need galvanising primer, then normal car paint, but it is
still a weak underlying area.

For this job, they recommended
Rustoleum 769 primer.

Good and that tackles the weakness of pure zinc products (they are meant
for freshly drilled or ground welds on RSJ, where you want the longest
life but also where abrasion resistance is immaterial).

You can buy miniature sand blasting kits; exactly like a paint air
sprayer, plug in to a compressor, will blast small areas for auto repair
etc. Add-ons for pressure washers also exist of course.

Nice to get secondary confirmation...

IYHO, should the Rustoleum be adequate as a one-coat finish on suspension
etc? From what I've read, it appears to be, but...

[Steve Firth]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the best
way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home kit? Or
any other tips?

For components that are exposed to spray or abrasion I'd recommend an
epoxy coating. Just to throw yet another confusing option into the long
list you already have, you understand. This is the sort of stuff that is
used to rust-proof steel in marine environments and it has the benefit
of chemical adhesion to the steel rather than a passive coating that can
be rubbed off.

http://www.rust.co.uk/epoxy-mastic.cfm

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
I've obtained some better ones but would like to protect them in the
best way possible. Any sort of plating worth doing? Especially a home
kit? Or any other tips?

For components that are exposed to spray or abrasion I'd recommend an
epoxy coating. Just to throw yet another confusing option into the long
list you already have, you understand. This is the sort of stuff that is
used to rust-proof steel in marine environments and it has the benefit
of chemical adhesion to the steel rather than a passive coating that can
be rubbed off.

http://www.rust.co.uk/epoxy-mastic.cfm

They're not exposed to anything like that. They are underneath a steel
sunroof and clamp the rubber seal which goes round the outside to it via
self tappers. You can't even see them, as that assembly fixes to the
sliding carriage. So just a good old fashioned water trap. The factory
obviously didn't realise there would be a problem as they have just one
layer of paint - no primer of any sort. There are three of them, one to
the front which survives well - it's the two side ones which rust badly.

But that does look like a good solution. Pity it's only in such large
quantities - 100mL would be more than enough. It'll cost 40 quid minimum
including post.

What it doesn't say is if it can be used as an undercoat for a normal car
finish like the current water based paints. If so I could do the actual
sunroof as well as they are rare as hens teeth too.

I've asked them for this information via their website.

--
*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Andy Dingley]

On 23 Nov, 08:49, (Steve Firth) wrote:

For components that are exposed to spray or abrasion I'd recommend an
epoxy coating.

Or "floor paint", as it's usefully obtained when refitting the
workshop. PU, chlorinated rubber or even epoxy floor paints all make
good extra-wear paints for parts expecting a hard life, although only
chlorinated rubber will last on flexing suspension parts.

[The Medway Handyman]

js.b1 wrote:


You can buy miniature sand blasting kits; exactly like a paint air
sprayer, plug in to a compressor, will blast small areas for auto
repair etc. Add-ons for pressure washers also exist of course.

But they use water as the propellant :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What it doesn't say is if it can be used as an undercoat for a normal car
finish like the current water based paints. If so I could do the actual
sunroof as well as they are rare as hens teeth too.

I've asked them for this information via their website

Got a prompt reply which is always encouraging.

'You can over paint Epoxy Mastic with most finishes, it is not a primer
for body work. It is designed for use on the vehicle underside, footwells
boot etc where a body finish is not required. Barrier coats are not
required but the adhesion/etch primer supplied with your chosen top coat
system should be used.'

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.