So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

Thoughts?

Steve

I recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors?

Typically NO, but you do need ventilation and for occasional home use a
window fan used in a window for exhaust will work. IF you are spraying then
you "may" have explosion considerations.

Oh, keep in mind "organic vapor filters " will NOT protect you against
Isocynates which may be contained in some products such as polyurethane.
--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

Thoughts?

Steve

"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

Thoughts?

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/flashpoint.html

For the basics. Normally that will appear on the container, as well.

Problem with some vapors is that they are enough heavier than air to hang
around close to the floor. Thus the of-repeated warning to use in a
"well-ventilated" space, which is meant to describe conditions where they
are mixed with a great volume of air, rather than waiting for that casual
spark in some low area. More for protection of your hide than lungs.

Rumpty wrote:

I recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors?

Typically NO, but you do need ventilation and for occasional home use a
window fan used in a window for exhaust will work. IF you are spraying
then you "may" have explosion considerations.

Oh, keep in mind "organic vapor filters " will NOT protect you against
Isocynates which may be contained in some products such as polyurethane.

Isocyanates _will_ be contained in _all_ polyurethanes including waterborne,
and will not be contained in any other kind of coating, as by definition
isocyanate-based coatings are polyurethanes.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

Thoughts?

Steve


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

Brushing does not seem to be a problem as not enough vapors are released in
one application. Venting is still a good thing. Spraying is a different
story as the solvents are more atomized.


I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

YES. Many a kitchen has burned up when the contractor used CC to install
countertops.


On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

See note above. My sister's new kitchen was done except of the counters.
POOF!

Mr Fixit eh says...

So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

It all depends on what the solvent is and how much is used. The risk
from exploding vapors from mineral spirits is pretty much zero. Contact
cement includes hexane, naphtha, and acetone, all extremely volatile and
potentially hazardous, especially hexane. Hexane is similar to but only
slightly heavier than the butane used in Bic lighters. It's about as
bad as it gets for risk of vapor combustion. Good ventilation is
absolutely essential, but obviously it can be used along with common
sense. Your ventilation plan should be plenty. Naphtha isn't a
chemical, but it is usually a mixture of mostly alkanes (hexane is an
alkane, as is butane and propane) and some other aliphatic hydrocarbons
falling somewhere between gasoline and kerosene in volatility. It is
excellent for cleaning wood prior to finishing, but use with caution if
the space is small or sparks or fire may be present. Most of us
probably already know acetone is extremely volatile. It has been the
bane of many a fiberglass factory. Lacquer thinner contains acetone and
nitrocellulose is explosive in its own right, so spraying lacquer in a
booth is literally like standing inside a bomb. I don't want to sound
paternalistic, because even basic precautions are usually all that is
needed, but everyone should know what can happen so they make sure it
doesn't.

Isocyanates _will_ be contained in _all_ polyurethanes including
waterborne,
and will not be contained in any other kind of coating, as by definition
isocyanate-based coatings are polyurethanes

John thanks for the clarification, I'm a ISO freak who has had bad dealings
with them. That's one reason why I use Hydrocote Resistane as a finish as
it doesn't contain ISO's.

Inhale deeply......

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Rumpty wrote:

I recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors?

Typically NO, but you do need ventilation and for occasional home use a
window fan used in a window for exhaust will work. IF you are spraying
then you "may" have explosion considerations.

Oh, keep in mind "organic vapor filters " will NOT protect you against
Isocynates which may be contained in some products such as polyurethane.

Isocyanates _will_ be contained in _all_ polyurethanes including
waterborne,
and will not be contained in any other kind of coating, as by definition
isocyanate-based coatings are polyurethanes.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

Thoughts?

Steve


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Rumpty wrote:

Isocyanates _will_ be contained in _all_ polyurethanes including
waterborne,
and will not be contained in any other kind of coating, as by definition
isocyanate-based coatings are polyurethanes

John thanks for the clarification, I'm a ISO freak who has had bad
dealings
with them. That's one reason why I use Hydrocote Resistane as a finish as
it doesn't contain ISO's.

Inhale deeply......

I remember the day that one of my former employers lost one of their minor
but irreplaceable corporate resources--there was a painter on the propeller
blade line who had been with the company over 30 years. He could put a
blade on the balance machine, check the balance, move it to the spray
booth, put a coat of paint on it, and it wouldn't need final balance (which
is intended to adjust for the weight of the paint) afterwards--he could
eyeball it that precisely. After spraying polyurethanes for 15 years or
so, with a good spray booth but no respirator (it was Fortune 500 Aerospace
and they do things like that right or not at all, but the safety folks did
their thing and the numbers said that in that booth he didn't need any kind
of protection), one day his system decided that it wanted to be allergic to
the stuff and he couldn't even come into the factory anymore (building is
about a quarter mile square) without going into anaphylactic shock.

That's the insidious thing about isocyanates--not that they're immediately
toxic but that when your system decides that it's had enough, then you
can't even get _close_ to them. And when that point of sensitization
occurs seems to be random--one guy can spray his whole life without any
protection and never have a problem, another guy can get sensitized the
first time he forgets to wear his air mask.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Rumpty wrote:

I recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors?

Typically NO, but you do need ventilation and for occasional home use a
window fan used in a window for exhaust will work. IF you are spraying
then you "may" have explosion considerations.

Oh, keep in mind "organic vapor filters " will NOT protect you against
Isocynates which may be contained in some products such as
polyurethane.

Isocyanates _will_ be contained in _all_ polyurethanes including
waterborne,
and will not be contained in any other kind of coating, as by definition
isocyanate-based coatings are polyurethanes.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains,
paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using
an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

Thoughts?

Steve


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Mr Fixit eh wrote:

So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains, paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.
snip

I once saw a woman in the ER who was blown through the
CLOSED door out into the yard while she was using contact
cement to surface counter tops. The water heater pilot
ignited the vapors. She was not seriously injured but the
windows were.


--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

My wife said I never listen to her. At
least I think that's what she said.





----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

In general, worry about the hazard from you breathing it, long before
you need to worry about explosion hazards.

The crucial factor is the concentration, and whether this is in a range
that forms an explosive mixture. For typical workshop use, this just
doesn't happen. If you're insistent on blowing yourself up, best way
to arrange it is to either knock the can over (suddenly raising the
concentration far beyond what you expected) or to have an ignition
source close to where you're working (concentration will be highest
around the can, or a large freshly glued/painted area)..

The significant concentration varies, depending on the chemical in
question. For our workshop solvents, you need a concentration of at
least 1% to form an explosive atmosphere (unless you're using some
plutonium and hydrazine process for staining cherry). This is
unthinkable in the workshop at large, but it's easily done near to a
pool of liquid solvent. So keep a good physical separation between
your solvents and your ignition sources ! This includes low-mounted
pilot lights and heavy vapours (like propane) that will concentrate
either on the floor, or below the ceiling.

There's a handy list of flamable solvents he
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/lowflashpoint.html
This lists the explosive limits, but it also lists the flashpoints.
Flashpoint is perhaps more useful here - if you're using a liquid with
a low flashpoint (around room temperature) then the vapour above a pool
of it will be an explosive mixture. This is where the definitions of
"flammable" and "highly flammable" come from - "Highly flammable" will
do this at room temperature, "Flammable" will do it with just a little
warmth (like a nice hot cup of tea)

Paint solvents are generally flammable. Glue solvents are often highly
flammable. be careful with paint, but be _really_ careful with solvent
based glues. The "construction adhesive" in mastic-gun tubes has an
infamous reputation for this - something like 75% of vapour explosion
accidents in construction are caused by this - not petrol, not paint
thinners. If toluene is an ingredient, be wary.

need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides.

This is called "veneer" and you do it with hide glue (ideally hot, but
the cold stuff is useful too). Now I'm a hide glue fan because I still
think it's the best and easiest way, but I appreciate others will have
their favourites. However anyone will tell you that doing this with
contact cement is a royal pain to do, let alone the vapour hazard.

Oh, and vapour exhaust fans need to be of a motor design that doesn't
use sparking brushgear ! (most are OK)

J. Clarke says...

That's the insidious thing about isocyanates--not that they're immediately
toxic but that when your system decides that it's had enough, then you
can't even get _close_ to them. And when that point of sensitization
occurs seems to be random--one guy can spray his whole life without any
protection and never have a problem, another guy can get sensitized the
first time he forgets to wear his air mask.

It was a methyl isocyanate leak that killed over 2,000 people in Bhopal
India.

I have a business associate I probably see a few times every year, a new
young furniture maker, last fall I asked what finish do you use, he answered
"wipe on poly" well as soon as I heard that I went into my ISO rant. I
recently saw him at a show and first thing he asked was what waterborne
finish I was using. I asked why? He mentioned that his wife does the
finishing and she developed "mood modification" after finishing, i.e. she
would argue and get POed really easy. Mood modification is another ISO
reaction.

I haven't sprayed poly in 20 years due to sore throats and mood
modification. I have on a rare occasion sprayed a fender or two on the
family car, and after spraying a hardened auto paint, my throat hurts....20
years later and same reaction.
--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Rumpty wrote:

Isocyanates _will_ be contained in _all_ polyurethanes including
waterborne,
and will not be contained in any other kind of coating, as by definition
isocyanate-based coatings are polyurethanes

John thanks for the clarification, I'm a ISO freak who has had bad
dealings
with them. That's one reason why I use Hydrocote Resistane as a finish
as
it doesn't contain ISO's.

Inhale deeply......

I remember the day that one of my former employers lost one of their minor
but irreplaceable corporate resources--there was a painter on the
propeller
blade line who had been with the company over 30 years. He could put a
blade on the balance machine, check the balance, move it to the spray
booth, put a coat of paint on it, and it wouldn't need final balance
(which
is intended to adjust for the weight of the paint) afterwards--he could
eyeball it that precisely. After spraying polyurethanes for 15 years or
so, with a good spray booth but no respirator (it was Fortune 500
Aerospace
and they do things like that right or not at all, but the safety folks did
their thing and the numbers said that in that booth he didn't need any
kind
of protection), one day his system decided that it wanted to be allergic
to
the stuff and he couldn't even come into the factory anymore (building is
about a quarter mile square) without going into anaphylactic shock.

That's the insidious thing about isocyanates--not that they're immediately
toxic but that when your system decides that it's had enough, then you
can't even get _close_ to them. And when that point of sensitization
occurs seems to be random--one guy can spray his whole life without any
protection and never have a problem, another guy can get sensitized the
first time he forgets to wear his air mask.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Rumpty wrote:

I recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors?

Typically NO, but you do need ventilation and for occasional home use
a
window fan used in a window for exhaust will work. IF you are
spraying
then you "may" have explosion considerations.

Oh, keep in mind "organic vapor filters " will NOT protect you
against
Isocynates which may be contained in some products such as
polyurethane.

Isocyanates _will_ be contained in _all_ polyurethanes including
waterborne,
and will not be contained in any other kind of coating, as by
definition
isocyanate-based coatings are polyurethanes.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Mr Fixit eh" wrote in message
oups.com...
So we've sorted out that dust is likely not a risk for combustion in
the home workshop unless you're shaking out your dust collector bags
right beside your furnace/ hot water tank pilot light.

Now for the vapours....I try to keep to the water-based stains,
paints,
etc, but every once in a while resort to an oil-based. If I'm using
an
oil-based, I crank the basement window open (basement shop). I
recently purchased a cartridge-style respirator with organic vapor
filters for lung protection. Do I need to be worried about an
explosion from these vapors? What sort of concentration is required
before the flame will make a big 'poof.'

I was planning to use some contact cement on a project. I had
purchased latex CC, but advice from this forum recommended oil-based
CC. Based on the warnings on the can, I'm thinking maybe this stuff
should stay out of the basement shop.

On a slightly different note.....

I need to attach oak skins to kitchen cabinet sides. How dangerous
is
this stuff to use on a main floor kitchen. I would close the
basement
door to prevent the vapours sinking to the basement, and set up a
fan
with windows open to exhaust the vapours.

Thoughts?

Steve


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Hax Planks wrote:

J. Clarke says...

That's the insidious thing about isocyanates--not that they're
immediately toxic but that when your system decides that it's had enough,
then you
can't even get _close_ to them. And when that point of sensitization
occurs seems to be random--one guy can spray his whole life without any
protection and never have a problem, another guy can get sensitized the
first time he forgets to wear his air mask.

It was a methyl isocyanate leak that killed over 2,000 people in Bhopal
India.

Enough of _anything_ will kill you outright. Most of us don't release 40
metric tons of pure isocyanate at one time.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:

Enough of _anything_ will kill you outright. Most of us don't
release 40
metric tons of pure isocyanate at one time.

Just how big was Norm's Highboy project?