George wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
...
Concern has slowly been changing from preserving individual species
on a piecmeal basis to preservation of specific environments. Thus
there is some degree of movement to leave more woods untouched,
even
though the trees therein are not scarce.
....



...
BTW, the only way I know of "preserving" anything is in some fluid
like
formalin. Anything else is just some short-lived human's pipedream.

Preservation in formalin has a limited lifetime too.

There is still a lack of consensus among cosmologists as to whether or
not the universe itself has a finite lifetime.

Paleontology has made it clear that forests can last for thousands
of human lifetimes. Once established, a forest may last until
geological forces harshen the climate and even then forests can
last thousands of years after the climate would have become too
harsh because the forest itself influences the local climate.

--

FF

wrote:
....
Paleontology has made it clear that forests can last for thousands
of human lifetimes. ...

That's not very long, really. Don't know what you're really driving at
--forested regions will remain forested under no intense changing
environment essentially forever. But over geological epoch time scales,
things don't stay the same very long at all, at least in some areas.

Large-scale defoliation from external forces such as Easter Island or
the importation of foreign pests (US Appalachia) for examples, are
something else entirely different.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Paleontology has made it clear that forests can last for thousands
of human lifetimes. Once established, a forest may last until
geological forces harshen the climate and even then forests can
last thousands of years after the climate would have become too
harsh because the forest itself influences the local climate.


Sorry, those forests blew down, burned down, succumbed to drought, diseases
predation and insect infestations thousands of times.

Not to mention, with cherry at best a transition tree - rare in any climax
forest, you only have it in abundance in transition phase.

Robatoy wrote:
In article ,
Rob Mitchell wrote:


I also know of lower quality (narrower, only 4-6' between knots or other
imperfections) in the $4 range. None of it is planed/jointed. Quite a
range because of quality, and demand


4 CAN$? That is not bad, Rob.

Spill!!
Where?
I'm in Sarnia...

*S*

Rob
What so you can take it all??

Check out
http://www.kooturlumber.com/lumber.shtml

They have online prices. I was there about 1 month ago, and he had much
more than I would need. It was unplaned so I couldn't get a real good
look at the grain, but it looked straight enough. He also had better
stuff for a bit more $$. A long way from Sarnia though, he is near
Stoney Creek, just south of Hamilton. Small private kind of place, but
quite a bit of wood.

Rob

George wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Paleontology has made it clear that forests can last for thousands
of human lifetimes. Once established, a forest may last until
geological forces harshen the climate and even then forests can
last thousands of years after the climate would have become too
harsh because the forest itself influences the local climate.


Sorry, those forests blew down, burned down, succumbed to drought,
diseases
predation and insect infestations thousands of times.

No need to apologize, I don't think it was your fault.

The trees in those forests blew down, burnt, were destroyed in
ice storms succumbed to drought, predation, insect infestions
and the like millions and millions of times. That is normal
for trees in a forest. From time to time, large contiguous
areas were set back. But the forests remained. What makes a
forest a climax environment is not that it cannot be set back,
(though some forests, those where fire was very rare, or very
common were much more stable than many believe) it is that it
keeps coming back after being set back by natural forces.


Not to mention, with cherry at best a transition tree - rare in any
climax
forest, you only have it in abundance in transition phase.

Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.

--

FF

wrote in message
oups.com...

Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.

Which _cannot_ be preserved.

Now try and get through to those malodorous huggers who think even a poplar
can be forever.

George wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.

Which _cannot_ be preserved.

In view of the fact that paleontology has made it clear that
forests can last for thousands of human lifetimes what is
your basis for saying that forests cannot be preserved?

--

FF

Duane Bozarth wrote:
wrote:
...
Paleontology has made it clear that forests can last for thousands
of human lifetimes. ...

That's not very long, really. Don't know what you're really driving
at
--forested regions will remain forested under no intense changing
environment essentially forever.

That's what I'm driving at. Forests can be preserved over
a time frame of thousands of years. Nothing can be preserved
forever so a statement that foo cannot be preserved is true
while not being partricularly illuminating.

Getting back to an earlier analogy, forests left on their
own typically will outlast a specimen preseverd in formalin
so if the lifetime of a specimen preserved in formalin es-
tablishes the time frame that constitutes 'preservation'
then indeed, forests can be preserved.

Now, there are a few people here and there who think
the Earth is only 7,000 years old and the end of time
is just around the corner. Those folks will have a
different perspective, given that most of the world's
forests in the pre-industrial are were alread far older
than that. It is easy to discount such people as nuts
but some of them vote, run for office and otherwise
get into postitions in the government where they get
to influence decisions. E.g. since forests can't be
preserved forever there is no point in keeping them
around at all. When you combine those with the nut-
cases that claim a forest will grow back from a clear-
cut in seven years you realize that a certain degree
of vigilance is needed.

I'm not clear where Mr George fits into the scheme of
things, maybe he'll elaborate.

--

FF

wrote in message
ups.com...

George wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.

Which _cannot_ be preserved.

In view of the fact that paleontology has made it clear that
forests can last for thousands of human lifetimes what is
your basis for saying that forests cannot be preserved?


Last chance to think, Fred.

Preserving any living thing is impossible. Since the forest sprouts, grows,
matures, changes species, is acted upon and limited by outside as well as
inside influences, you can't preserve _any_ stage, not even the climax
forest, which becomes more vulnerable to disease and blow-over. I haven't
the slightest clue what is so difficult to comprehend about that if you know
_anything_ about such things as "ecosystems." Or are you just using a
buzzword?

For a micro view, consider what happens when a mature tree falls in one of
your "eternal" rainforests. It starts another cycle by letting light to the
floor. New plant and animal species engage in competition for the space,
sun and the fertilizer, and dominate, each for their time, until the
shade-tolerant tall-canopied climax trees finally gain a new foothold. On a
macro scale, flood, earthquake, fire and drought can make opportunities for
entirely new ecosystems to dominate for hundreds or thousands of years in
the midst of even a climax forest. Certain ungulates preserve and expand
their pastures at the expense of the forest, or even small creatures, which
cannot normally find sustenance in a forest, can chew back woody plants and
help maintain a healthy meadow.

There is no such thing as a forest lasting thousands of years without
change - period.

To return, and this is my last, so you're going, as I say, to have to THINK,
to the subject of cherry. Cherry is not a climax forest tree. It is
ecostupidity to think that you can have cherry without altering the climax
forest, or, in some misguided "preservation" attempt, believe that new trees
will begin to sprout under mature canopy. You can work yourself out of the
cherry business for hundreds of years if you allow climax forest to extend
farther from the last fruiting tree than a finch with a full bowel can fly
before defecating.

wrote:
Duane Bozarth wrote:
wrote:
...
Paleontology has made it clear that forests can last for
thousands
of human lifetimes. ...

That's not very long, really. Don't know what you're really
driving
at
--forested regions will remain forested under no intense changing
environment essentially forever.

That's what I'm driving at. Forests can be preserved over
a time frame of thousands of years. Nothing can be preserved
forever so a statement that foo cannot be preserved is true
while not being partricularly illuminating.

Getting back to an earlier analogy, forests left on their
own typically will outlast a specimen preseverd in formalin
so if the lifetime of a specimen preserved in formalin es-
tablishes the time frame that constitutes 'preservation'
then indeed, forests can be preserved.

Now, there are a few people here and there who think
the Earth is only 7,000 years old and the end of time
is just around the corner. Those folks will have a
different perspective, given that most of the world's
forests in the pre-industrial are were alread far older
than that. It is easy to discount such people as nuts
but some of them vote, run for office and otherwise
get into postitions in the government where they get
to influence decisions. E.g. since forests can't be
preserved forever there is no point in keeping them
around at all. When you combine those with the nut-
cases that claim a forest will grow back from a clear-
cut in seven years you realize that a certain degree
of vigilance is needed.

I'm not clear where Mr George fits into the scheme of
things, maybe he'll elaborate.

--

FF

Fred, I'm not getting into this whole topic. I'd just like to let you
know that in certian circumstances you'd be amazed at what a clear cut
job can look like after seven years. I'm not being unrealistic but I'm
thinking of a basswood job we cut 12 years ago. The trees were reaching
the point of being over mature and were harvested in the winter. The
trees that were shaded were mostly totally hollow (which is normally
how it goes) so they all went. Harvesting in the winter will allow for
stump sprout. At least here in the northern region. When you have 5
trunks competing you get tall straight trees. 12 years later those
trees are 30 to 40' tall and maybe 12" average at chest level. It's
now a nice woods compared rotting out over time. My point is that every
woods is basically different and areas in the woods differ as to how
they should be logged.

wrote:
George wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.


Which _cannot_ be preserved.


In view of the fact that paleontology has made it clear that
forests can last for thousands of human lifetimes what is
your basis for saying that forests cannot be preserved?

What paleontology clearly shows is that while an area may remain
forested for thousands -- or millions of years -- the composition of the
forest changes radically and repeatedly throughout the time it is in
existence.

What ecology shows us is that even a 'climax' forest is not stable.
'Climax' is an attractor, not an end point.

So, no, forests cannot be 'preserved' in the sense that most of the
environmentalist tree-huggers use the term.

--RC

Bob G. wrote:

Kind of depressing honestly... Have Tools, Have Time, Can not afford
lumber....

A guy Dad knows builds custom furniture for people for free. You feed him
wood, he feeds you furniture. It's the only way he can afford to sustain
the habit.

I hear even at that he's not keeping himself as busy as he wants. People
are having trouble affording to buy him wood.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Silvan:
I hear even at that he's not keeping himself as busy as he wants. People
are having trouble affording to buy him wood.

Maybe he needs to charge for his labor. He'd probably be
busier than a one armed paper hanger in an ass kicking
contest.

UA100

George wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

George wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.

Which _cannot_ be preserved.

In view of the fact that paleontology has made it clear that
forests can last for thousands of human lifetimes what is
your basis for saying that forests cannot be preserved?


Last chance to think, Fred.

Preserving any living thing is impossible. Since the forest sprouts,
grows,
matures, changes species, is acted upon and limited by outside as
well as
inside influences, you can't preserve _any_ stage, not even the
climax
forest, which becomes more vulnerable to disease and blow-over. I
haven't
the slightest clue what is so difficult to comprehend about that if
you know
_anything_ about such things as "ecosystems." Or are you just using
a
buzzword?

None of what you said has any bearing on the notion of preserving
a forest. If the forest is there now and still there in a hunderd
years and was there all the time in between the forest has been
preserved for one hundred years. Change that to a thousand years
or ten thousand, the same logic applies. I cannot fathom how you
conclude that a forest cannot be preserved if the trees die. That
is a classic example of the cliche of not seeing a forest because
the trees block your view.


There is no such thing as a forest lasting thousands of years without
change - period.


Of course. That continuous change is essential for the preservation
of the forest. COnsider your earlier example, that of a specimen
preserved in formulin. It also undergoes continuous change, does
that mean it is not preserved?

To return, and this is my last, so you're going, as I say, to have to
THINK,
to the subject of cherry. Cherry is not a climax forest tree. It is
ecostupidity to think that you can have cherry without altering the
climax
forest, or, in some misguided "preservation" attempt, believe that
new trees
will begin to sprout under mature canopy. You can work yourself out
of the
cherry business for hundreds of years if you allow climax forest to
extend
farther from the last fruiting tree than a finch with a full bowel
can fly
before defecating.

As you know, numerous forces set back succession in forests so that
the edge envionment in which cherry flourishes will continually be
created.

--

FF

wrote:

... I'm
thinking of a basswood job we cut 12 years ago. The trees were
reaching
the point of being over mature and were harvested in the winter. The
trees that were shaded were mostly totally hollow (which is normally
how it goes) so they all went. Harvesting in the winter will allow
for
stump sprout. At least here in the northern region. When you have 5
trunks competing you get tall straight trees. 12 years later those
trees are 30 to 40' tall and maybe 12" average at chest level. ...

That is a bit faster than I would have expected. How much longer
do you think it'll take befor those hollow trees are replaced
with more hollow trees?

Probably forever, because you want to manage that woodlot to keep
producing good wood, right? That's fine with me but its not
a forest unless trees therein can progress all the way through
their natural life-style. I do NOT insist that every patch of
woods must be left to grow into forest, I only argue that if
if it is not allowed to mature into a forest, it is not a forest.

--

FF

Rick Cook wrote:
wrote:
George wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.


Which _cannot_ be preserved.


In view of the fact that paleontology has made it clear that
forests can last for thousands of human lifetimes what is
your basis for saying that forests cannot be preserved?

What paleontology clearly shows is that while an area may remain
forested for thousands -- or millions of years -- the composition of
the
forest changes radically and repeatedly throughout the time it is in
existence.

What ecology shows us is that even a 'climax' forest is not stable.
'Climax' is an attractor, not an end point.

So, no, forests cannot be 'preserved' in the sense that most of the
environmentalist tree-huggers use the term.


I think you misrepresent the way most environmentalist tree-huggers
use the term 'preserved'.

--

FF

wrote:
Rick Cook wrote:

wrote:

George wrote:


wrote in message
legroups.com...


Agreed. But let's not forget that transition areas are a normal
part of the forest environment.


Which _cannot_ be preserved.


In view of the fact that paleontology has made it clear that
forests can last for thousands of human lifetimes what is
your basis for saying that forests cannot be preserved?


What paleontology clearly shows is that while an area may remain
forested for thousands -- or millions of years -- the composition of

the

forest changes radically and repeatedly throughout the time it is in
existence.

What ecology shows us is that even a 'climax' forest is not stable.
'Climax' is an attractor, not an end point.

So, no, forests cannot be 'preserved' in the sense that most of the
environmentalist tree-huggers use the term.



I think you misrepresent the way most environmentalist tree-huggers
use the term 'preserved'.

Certainly a number of the more vocal ones use 'preserved' in that way.
I'm aware that some (a minority) of environmentalists have a deeper
understanding of forest health. But even many of those seem to fall into
the 'preservationist' line when push comes to shove.

The result is that 'environmentalists' as a whole can appear a lot more
rational in print than they do in the ground, because the more rational
ones aren't the ones applying pressure.

Right now for example the 'environmentalists' are waging war to the
knife against efforts to prevent fires like the ones that burned about
250,000 acres of Arizona a couple of years ago. Since the effort
involves cutting trees they oppose it. They carry this to utterly
idiotic extremes, such as opposing thinning lanes along roads to create
barriers to fires jumping the roads. (Note I said 'thinning'. The
proposal in question would have allowed the US forest service to take
out brush and trees as necessary, not clear-cut the forest.)

But as the saying goes, 'the truth is out there. Anyone who wants to can
go look at the evidence. Those who don't want to can have a nice day.

I just killfiled one silly pointless debate in this newsgroup and I'll
be damned if I'll charge into another.

--RC

Rick Cook wrote:
wrote:



I think you misrepresent the way most environmentalist tree-huggers
use the term 'preserved'.

Certainly a number of the more vocal ones use 'preserved' in that
way.
I'm aware that some (a minority) of environmentalists have a deeper
understanding of forest health. But even many of those seem to fall
into
the 'preservationist' line when push comes to shove.

I've met hundreds of environmentalist tree-huggers and never once
met one who though forests were static with each tree living forever.

The result is that 'environmentalists' as a whole can appear a lot
more
rational in print than they do in the ground, because the more
rational
ones aren't the ones applying pressure.

I think the opposite for both environmentalists and timber interests.
Sam Donaldson explained why when he described a classic 'schtick'
used in journalism. "You interview one person on one side of the
issue, one person onthe other side, and one person somewhere
in-between. It's not scientific, but its good journalism" IMHO
it's not journalism becuase it creates the impression that two
extremists represent a consensus on two sides of an issue that
probably is multifaceted.

Right now for example the 'environmentalists' are waging war to the
knife against efforts to prevent fires like the ones that burned
about
250,000 acres of Arizona a couple of years ago. Since the effort
involves cutting trees they oppose it.

Tell, me, does the policy call for clearing the brush while leaving
tha largest (most fire resistant) trees in place? Or does it
call for removing large trees which will encourage understory
growth making the forest more succeptible to fire?

....


But as the saying goes, 'the truth is out there. Anyone who wants to
can
go look at the evidence. Those who don't want to can have a nice day.

Everybody should take a walk in the woods at least once in a while.

--

FF