Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew

Thanks Charlie, it's where I am leaning, but wanted to get some other
thoughts first.

A

"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message

in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

If you have to severely compromise and feel that you're not going to make a
fair wage on the construction, then I think you should turn the job down.
Quote this person a price that you feel comfortable with, not what he
bargains you down to. Explain that the quality of your work and the time
you'd have to spend on his bed demands that you'd have to charge him $XXX.
If he doesn't like it then don't take the job. If he wants carving, then
charge him accordingly. It sounds like you're just starting out. If you take
a job just to get a client, but break even or lose money, it's going to
leave a very sour taste in your mouth and your woodworking will suffer for
it.

Work up what YOU think is a fair estimate. Stick to it.
When i give an estimate to someone, it's pretty much the bottom line price.
And it's not out of the question to turn someone down for not wanting to
meet my wages in the same way that they can turn me down for not fitting
into their budget. Also beware of the customers who are willing to spend
tons of money on materials, but little on labor. --dave

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message

in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

If you have to severely compromise and feel that you're not going to make
a
fair wage on the construction, then I think you should turn the job down.
Quote this person a price that you feel comfortable with, not what he
bargains you down to. Explain that the quality of your work and the time
you'd have to spend on his bed demands that you'd have to charge him $XXX.
If he doesn't like it then don't take the job. If he wants carving, then
charge him accordingly. It sounds like you're just starting out. If you
take
a job just to get a client, but break even or lose money, it's going to
leave a very sour taste in your mouth and your woodworking will suffer for
it.

"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew


It is apparent he cannot, or will not, afford custom furniture.
--

FMB
(only one B in FMB)

Do you know of any other custom furniture makers who will meet his
price? If you do then you are being unreasonable. If the only
competition at that price however can be found in Wal-mart or Ikea,
then you shouldn't worry. You will never compete with their prices and
you shouldn't for the simple reason that your work is of a much higher
quality. (If it isn't you should probably look for a new line of work,
but it doesn't sound as if that is the case)

Besides, $1,000 is in my opinion a very reasonable price for a solid
wood bed with a decent finish.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs
even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

There's nothing wrong in telling him that you cannot do it for $800.
Don't feel ashamed for quoting a higher price, even if it quotes you
out of the work.

I used to do web development on the side, and I'd quote some ridiculous
price on a simple website when I didn't really want the work (just not
enough time to do it, etc.). I worked with the same pool of clients
all the time, and I did not want to turn down work outright.

Remember, it's your time, and it's your right to quote anything you
want. It's a free country, and they can take their business elsewhere
if they please.

Come to think of it, $1k is pretty darned inexpensive for a custom bed.

Andrew,

I'm a headhunter when I'm not woodworking and deal mostly with sales
people. One Sales Manager gave me a piece of advice that really stuck
with me.

Don't ever be afraid to lose a sale.

If you let that creep into a negotiation, you've had it.

When I first meet with a prospective client, I make sure that they know what
custom furniture means. When we talk about ballpark pricing, I tell them
that a good starting point is to go look at a Very High End furniture store
(Ethan allen is the bottom end of what I consider High end), and add about
10%-25% to their prices. I also make sure to explain that the product that
they'll get from me is custom made, with real wood (there are a couple of
places I use ply like drawer bottoms, but very few), and that they can
expect to pass the items I make on to their grandkids.
If someone is asking about kitchen cabinets (for some reason a lot of people
think that furniture makers are cabinetmakers), I tell them that they should
go talk to a cabinet shop (I have a couple that I refer people to), and that
if they can't do what you want, come back and see me, but realize that
you'll be getting furniture quality cabinets, which is going to be
expensive, andis overkill because you're probably going to want to re-do the
kitchen in 20 years or so.... (I hate doing kitchens, but will do them if
folks want to pay my rates).
Its been about 8-10 years since I had a client that caem back after the
first meeting, then later balked at the price. I'd rather drop a client fast
if they are going to end up not closing a deal anyway. When someone comes in
and says "I saw something I like at (insert store name here) for $XXXX and I
think you should be able to make it for about the same price, beacue I only
want to change a couple of minor details", its time to have a short (15
minute max) discussion about what a heirloom quality custome made piece of
furniture really is, compared to Sears or some other mass market furniture
store. Send them to Thos Moser's furniture store (they have a web site too),
and tell them to use *it* as a starting point for what custom furniture
costs....

Its not worth wasting time on customers that just aren't going to pan out.
If they're looking for a "deal", they've got the wrong idea about custom
work.....

--JD





"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew

Oh yeah, and $800 is way too little for a bed. a fairly simple twin bed
using one of my existing designs starts at about $2,000 in my shop,and goes
up from there.
--JD



"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew

T&D,
Seems the client doesn't unserstand the concept of custom made furniture, of
working with a craftsman, or the expense invloved. He did not show up with
sketches at the first meeting, then looked around and set a ceiling, then
comes back with a carving request. My own reaction would have been, as you
did, to diplomatically explain that you get what you pay for. The carving
request, hmm, give him a realistic quote, a time frame, and forget about it.
Sticker shock can be put to work for you.

"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, "Tattooed and Dusty"
wrote:
snip
What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew

Quoting my hero at http://www.wonderfulwood.com/

What we don't do:

Wonderful Wood does not beat the price of knock down particle board furniture at
Kmart. We do not make things in lots of 10,000 for next to nothing (I don't want
to make 10,000 of anything, except maybe dollars). If someone is already making
what you want, chances are we can't beat their price. If you really want one, go
get it before they run out.

Instead we offer:

Personal attention

High quality craftsmanship

attention to detail you won't get in a factory built piece

finally, and most important, customer satisfaction


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

when i'm designing a stained glass panel, anything beyond the initial talks
and napkin sketches is subject to a design fee that gets applied to the
panel cost if purchased, and is non-refundable. if they balk at this after
deciding to go with you in the first place, then you really don't want them
as a customer.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
T&D,
Seems the client doesn't unserstand the concept of custom made furniture,
of
working with a craftsman, or the expense invloved. He did not show up
with
sketches at the first meeting, then looked around and set a ceiling, then
comes back with a carving request. My own reaction would have been, as
you
did, to diplomatically explain that you get what you pay for. The carving
request, hmm, give him a realistic quote, a time frame, and forget about
it.
Sticker shock can be put to work for you.

"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...


Snip
Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.


Been there and done that. For what it is worth, I NEVER give a price until
I have designed the piece. Yes some times I do a lot of work for nothing
but most of the time I sell the job. Once the customer has as much time
vested in the design as you do he normally does not want to choose something
else. Basically my CAD drawings are the customer designs that I have
modified so that it will work. If the customer demands a price up front I
simply tell them "Ball Park X amount give or take 60%". If they start
getting that crazy look in their face at that point we part ways and don't
waist any more of each others time. If they start comparing pricing to a
store's pricing I quickly suggest that they go to the store and buy that
item.

On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, the inscrutable "Tattooed and Dusty"
spake:

Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

This it all too common for self-employed people in all lines
of work.


A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the

Big DANGER flag #1!


commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Yeah, most clients want you to drop your first quoted price after
adding new design items. sigh If you need the work and want to stay
busy, that's an option. But _if_ you accept work like this, I'd
suggest getting the -full- amount up front, after you've done the
design signoff and have his signature on the contract and design
papers. And always get at least half the money as a non-refundable
downpayment (wood/hardware costs, design time, etc.)


Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

Big DANGER flag #2! You have 2 choices:

1) Run away! (best choice)
or
2) ask $2,450 for the bed. (He'll run away.)


What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Trust your instincts.


Any advice at all?

Thank him for thinking of your but gracefully decline. This guy would
never pay the full amount to you, finding fault with this or that
until you just gave the thing to him. Clients like this flew in
directly from Hell and we don't need them.


--------------------------------------------
Proud (occasional) maker of Hungarian Paper Towels.
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

Larry Jaques wrote:

2) ask $2,450 for the bed. (He'll run away.)



He probably will. But that's still a pretty damn cheap price for a
custom headboard & footboard with custom carvings.

Larry Bud responds:

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs
even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

There's nothing wrong in telling him that you cannot do it for $800.
Don't feel ashamed for quoting a higher price, even if it quotes you
out of the work.

For sure. Tell him to check sites such as Mike Maxwell's (maxwellfurniture.com)
where a spindle bed goes for over $1700 and a four poster is over $3000. And
those are semi-production, at least in that Mike has had the templates made up
for some time now. One-off designs normally cost considerably more.

Charlie Self
"I think we agree, the past is over." George W. Bush

Or check here

http://www.io.com/~colca/Home_Furnit...owens_bed.html

and

http://www.io.com/~colca/Home_Furnit...r/dresser.html

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, the inscrutable "Tattooed and Dusty"
spake:
Snip

Big DANGER flag #2! You have 2 choices:

1) Run away! (best choice)
or
2) ask $2,450 for the bed. (He'll run away.)


LOL.

#2 . sometimes they will run away. A friend taught me to way over bid a
project if you do not particularily want it. We do that and get it about
half the time. Then it instantly becomes an unexpected "Gravy " job.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, the inscrutable "Tattooed and Dusty"
spake:
Snip

Big DANGER flag #2! You have 2 choices:

1) Run away! (best choice)
or
2) ask $2,450 for the bed. (He'll run away.)


LOL.

#2 . sometimes they will run away. A friend taught me to way over bid a
project if you do not particularily want it. We do that and get it about
half the time. Then it instantly becomes an unexpected "Gravy " job.


I had a friend who worked for a painting contractor one summer. He did
strictly high end work. They took their time and did a good job. He only
used experienced, competent painters.

The bidding process was unique. All the other painters were trying to beat
each others bid. He would often go in and bid anywhere from 50% more to as
much as double or triple what others bid. The folks who hired him figured if
they paid more, they would get a better job. And if quality was a
consideration, the higher price was justified.

He worked full time making bids while his crews did the painting. He took
extra time to make the bids. He presented the bid in a fancy cover with
photographs and a detailed description of what he would do and offered a
gaurantee. He spent some time with the prospective customer to make them
feel special.

All for top dollar. He closed at least a quarter of all bids. And in some
neighborhoods, he closed up to half of the bids. And all of them were far
higher than the competition.

So bidding a high number may be very appropriate in some cases. This guy
made a carrer of it.

On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, "Tattooed and Dusty"
wrote:

Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

[snip]

I agree with all of the advice you have been given by others about walking
away ... with one caveat. What else are you going to do with your time if
you are not working on this commission?

If you have something better to do -- irrespective as to whether it
involves you being compensated with $$ -- then tell the guy "no". For
example, for what he is offering, you might value more highly simply
sitting on your butt and watching the cars drive by. If, on the other
hand, you can find more value -- by whatever your measure of that may be --
in doing the commission than in not doing it, apart from the $$, then
perhaps say yes. IOW, even if you would only net $100 for 50 hours of
work, maybe $100 is something you need more than anything else you might
do/earn during that same 50 hours.

That all being said, even if you do this suggested calculation and it comes
out in favor of the commission, you might still want to say know because
the guy is too confused, may change his mind even after you start the work
(and not be willing to accept the notion of a "change order"), and/or may
cause some sort of problem at the end (such as refuse to pay the balance)
even after you have faithfully produced what he ordered. FWIW. -- Igor

In article . com,
"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote:

[major snippage]

Any advice at all?


Yup.
You want customers who appreciate your work and realize that it costs
money to create an heirloom-grade one-of-kind piece of furniture.
If they don't understand that, you don't want them as a customer because
they will never find it 'worth-it'.
Suggest they go check out proper furniture stores as they will likely
find something they will appreciate for the money (because they
obviously don't have a clue what custom work is all about).

As a friend of mine always says: "if they won't let you make any
money...maybe you should just give it to them?"

If I were in your shoes, I would follow my gut and bail.

0¿0

Rob

On 8 Feb 2005 10:15:46 -0800, the inscrutable "A.M. Wood"
spake:


Larry Jaques wrote:

2) ask $2,450 for the bed. (He'll run away.)

He probably will. But that's still a pretty damn cheap price for a
custom headboard & footboard with custom carvings.

Yes, it's a REAL price, not a price for a United Furniture
piece made of termite barf.


--------------------------------------------
Proud (occasional) maker of Hungarian Paper Towels.
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:13:41 -0500, the inscrutable "Lee Michaels"
spake:

"Leon" wrote in message
om...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

2) ask $2,450 for the bed. (He'll run away.)


LOL.

#2 . sometimes they will run away. A friend taught me to way over bid a
project if you do not particularily want it. We do that and get it about
half the time. Then it instantly becomes an unexpected "Gravy " job.

Goodonya, Mate.


I had a friend who worked for a painting contractor one summer. He did
strictly high end work. They took their time and did a good job. He only
used experienced, competent painters.
--snipage--
All for top dollar. He closed at least a quarter of all bids. And in some
neighborhoods, he closed up to half of the bids. And all of them were far
higher than the competition.

So bidding a high number may be very appropriate in some cases. This guy
made a carrer of it.

That's a smart man! I'll bet he's very, very well off, too. And I'd
imagine that all of his painters loved him for it, too, because it
meant they'd get to use real brushes and guns, truly decent masking
materials, good paint, and they had time to do it right.


--------------------------------------------
Proud (occasional) maker of Hungarian Paper Towels.
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

That's a smart man! I'll bet he's very, very well off, too. And I'd
imagine that all of his painters loved him for it, too, because it
meant they'd get to use real brushes and guns, truly decent masking
materials, good paint, and they had time to do it right.

Ther is nothing quite as satisifying as being paid for and doing a quality
job.




--------------------------------------------
Proud (occasional) maker of Hungarian Paper Towels.
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design
================================================== ====

Charlie Self gave good advice.

I've lost money on clients like this - in other industries. Usually the
shenanigans start after the project started and you invested your own
money. So consider yourself lucky.

So far you have invested more time than it's worth. Be polite when you
say goodbye.


Tattooed and Dusty wrote:
Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, "Tattooed and Dusty"
wrote:


Snip

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Drop him like a bad habit. I've had situations much like the one
you're describing with both carpentry and website design, and it's
never come out well for me. If they're expecting more and more for
the same or less payment, that's just going to continue until you're
ready to kill them just to make them go away!

The rough thing about customers that act like that is they're very
often the same folks who will get really indignant when you drop them.
Generally the best way I've found to deal with the situation you're in
is to quote a price you know they are not willing to pay, and stick to
it. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up for a gigantic
headache!

Good luck!


Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:51:39 GMT, igor wrote:

On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, "Tattooed and Dusty"

I agree with all of the advice you have been given by others about walking
away ... with one caveat. What else are you going to do with your time if
you are not working on this commission?

I made this mistake once several years back, and took a job for about
40% less than my usual rate- the problem was that I was dramatically
undercutting the other tradesmen in the area, and word of mouth
travelled like wildfire. For the sake of keeping busy, I kept taking
jobs at that reduced rate because people were telling their friends
that that was what I charged, and it began to cost me other
(higher-paying) jobs because I wanted to fulfill the commitments I had
made. After about six months of this, I had to drop everyone in that
circle of aquaintances and start re-establishing my prices and
reputation with an entirely new group of clients. Sometimes it's
better to sit on your hands then it is to take a bad job just to keep
busy! It was a costly mistake to make, to say the least.

If you have something better to do -- irrespective as to whether it
involves you being compensated with $$ -- then tell the guy "no". For
example, for what he is offering, you might value more highly simply
sitting on your butt and watching the cars drive by. If, on the other
hand, you can find more value -- by whatever your measure of that may be --
in doing the commission than in not doing it, apart from the $$, then
perhaps say yes. IOW, even if you would only net $100 for 50 hours of
work, maybe $100 is something you need more than anything else you might
do/earn during that same 50 hours.

That all being said, even if you do this suggested calculation and it comes
out in favor of the commission, you might still want to say know because
the guy is too confused, may change his mind even after you start the work
(and not be willing to accept the notion of a "change order"), and/or may
cause some sort of problem at the end (such as refuse to pay the balance)
even after you have faithfully produced what he ordered. FWIW. -- Igor

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

Tattooed and Dusty wrote:

Any advice at all?

I haven't seen pictures of quite what you have in mind, but we used to sell
a line of American-made, mass-produced stuff that featured a lot of fancy
carved posts and other whatnots. I don't quite remember the pricing
structure, but it was big dollar stuff. What he's offering is not even
peanuts if what he has in mind is any kind of similar. I think these
headboards used to retail for $2,500. (Big premium because they were
American made, hand-finished, and used quality materials, and quality
joinery.)

If the thing this guy wants is any kind of similar, I think you need to
double the estimate as a starting point. If he's still interested at $1600
then it's probably worth putting up with his sh!t. Otherwise his name is
tater, and he's hot hot hot.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

Tue, Feb 8, 2005, 5:59am (EST-3)
(A.M.=A0Wood) exclaims:
Come to think of it, $1k is pretty darned inexpensive for a custom bed.

Maybe when it come to being paid for making one. But, in my world,
that would be way the Hell too expensive to pay out for one, on my
income.

Which is one reason I am looking for ideas to make my own.



JOAT
Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
- David Fasold

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:13:41 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
om...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On 7 Feb 2005 23:11:31 -0800, the inscrutable "Tattooed and Dusty"
spake:
Snip

Big DANGER flag #2! You have 2 choices:

1) Run away! (best choice)
or
2) ask $2,450 for the bed. (He'll run away.)


LOL.

#2 . sometimes they will run away. A friend taught me to way over bid a
project if you do not particularily want it. We do that and get it about
half the time. Then it instantly becomes an unexpected "Gravy " job.


I had a friend who worked for a painting contractor one summer. He did
strictly high end work. They took their time and did a good job. He only
used experienced, competent painters.

The bidding process was unique. All the other painters were trying to beat
each others bid. He would often go in and bid anywhere from 50% more to as
much as double or triple what others bid. The folks who hired him figured if
they paid more, they would get a better job. And if quality was a
consideration, the higher price was justified.

He worked full time making bids while his crews did the painting. He took
extra time to make the bids. He presented the bid in a fancy cover with
photographs and a detailed description of what he would do and offered a
gaurantee. He spent some time with the prospective customer to make them
feel special.

All for top dollar. He closed at least a quarter of all bids. And in some
neighborhoods, he closed up to half of the bids. And all of them were far
higher than the competition.

So bidding a high number may be very appropriate in some cases. This guy
made a carrer of it.

good point, Lee...
Years ago, I worked on folks cars on weekends... my older brother did this also,
and had been making pretty good money at it..

I was telling him one night that I knew that I did good work and that the
customers were happy, but I had very little repeat business..

His advice was to double my labor rates... that People believe that they "get
what they pay for" and if you charge discount prices they don't think that
they're getting quality work..

I took his advice and spent several years not only getting repeat business but
several referrals..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"mac davis" wrote in message

Years ago, I worked on folks cars on weekends... my older brother did this
also,
and had been making pretty good money at it..

I was telling him one night that I knew that I did good work and that the
customers were happy, but I had very little repeat business..

His advice was to double my labor rates... that People believe that they
"get
what they pay for" and if you charge discount prices they don't think that
they're getting quality work..

I took his advice and spent several years not only getting repeat business
but
several referrals..

Amazing how that works.

Tue, Feb 8, 2005, 7:51pm (EST+5) (igor) claims to
say:
snip apart from the $$, then perhaps say yes. IOW, even if you would
only net $100 for 50 hours of work, maybe $100 is something you need
more than anything else you might do/earn during that same 50 hours.
snip

I can't agree less. What I make to sell priced at hundreds of
dollars, more like $20 or $30. But, even if I NEEDED the money, I
wouldn't price my labor at $2 an hour. If the guy does that once, he'll
be expected to do it again. If he needs money that bad, he should get a
job flipping burgers, until he gets a paying customer.



JOAT
Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
- David Fasold

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:26:21 -0500, (J T) wrote:

Tue, Feb 8, 2005, 7:51pm (EST+5) (igor) claims to
say:
snip apart from the $$, then perhaps say yes. IOW, even if you would
only net $100 for 50 hours of work, maybe $100 is something you need
more than anything else you might do/earn during that same 50 hours.
snip

I can't agree less. What I make to sell priced at hundreds of
dollars, more like $20 or $30. But, even if I NEEDED the money, I
wouldn't price my labor at $2 an hour. If the guy does that once, he'll
be expected to do it again. If he needs money that bad, he should get a
job flipping burgers, until he gets a paying customer.


Well, w/ respect, you may have missed my point. My point: Life is not just
a matter of yes/no decisions; it often is a matter of this/that decisions.
Also, as for the $$ involved, I did say, "For example, for what he is
offering, you might value more highly simply sitting on your butt and
watching the cars drive by." IOW, it is a question of what the OP values,
taking one road or the other. How much he is paid in relation to how much
work he does is only one part of the equation. And as far as being
"expected to do it again", that is a separate matter. At least for me,
I've taken jobs that underpaid me for what I could get elsewhere -- because
of who I would be working for, what kind of work it was, or simply an
opportunity to work on something about which I wanted to learn.

All this being said, in some ways you helped to actually endorse my point
-- i.e., you think that for the OP the decision should be between $2/hour
woodworking or somewhat more flipping burgers. IOW, again, it is not a
yes/no decision on the woodworking job, it is a this/that decision on the
ww job or burgers. Thanks. -- Igor

Simply put - go with your gut - chances are he will find something else to
change AFTER you've done most of the work. Be polite but kiss him goodbye.

V

"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew

Vic Baron wrote:
Simply put - go with your gut - chances are he will find something else to
change AFTER you've done most of the work. Be polite but kiss him goodbye.

V

This is good advice before accepting any commission. If the customer or
the job don't 'feel right' to you then either ask for a whole bunch of
money up front or politely decline.

Someone made the point that economically it's better to put your time to
use on a low paying job than to sit idle. Economically that's correct.
However you have to factor in what it does to you as a person. If it
makes you feel resentful or taken advantage of, you're better off
sitting idle, economics or no.

--RC


"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...

Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew

Wed, Feb 9, 2005, 9:39pm (EST+5) (igor) claims:
snip All this being said, in some ways you helped to actually endorse
my point -- i.e., you think that for the OP the decision should be
between $2/hour woodworking or somewhat more flipping burgers. IOW,
again, it is not a yes/no decision on the woodworking job, it is a
this/that decision on the ww job or burgers.

Noooo, I think he shouldn't be charging $2 an hour for woodworking.
Unless he wants to sell hs stuff for only $2 an hour. But, seeing as
how he's out of work, I think he'd be better off flipping burgers, at
more than $2 an hour, to get some money coming in. $2 an hour Isn't
going to cut it, unless he's living at home with his parents, and not
paying food, rent, etc. And, I didn't get that impression. Could be
wrong tho.



JOAT
Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
- David Fasold

Wed, Feb 9, 2005, 9:39pm (EST+5) (igor) has said:
snip All this being said, in some ways you helped to actually endorse
my point -- i.e., you think that for the OP the decision should be
between $2/hour woodworking or somewhat more flipping burgers. IOW,
again, it is not a yes/no decision on the woodworking job, it is a
this/that decision on the ww job or burgers.

Crap. I think I'm getting different threads mixed up with my
response.

Anyway, if he charges $2 per hour, he's gonna be expected to charge
$2 in the future. My thought was if he wanted income, while he waited
around for another woodworking job, he could do better flipping
burgers, rather than $2 an hour for his woodworking. It's his
woodworking reputaiton on the line. Unless he sold the stuff and his
past and future customers never found out.



JOAT
Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
- David Fasold

For some reason, some people just can't figure out that you have to earn a
certain amount of $ for every hour you put in. They will drive you nuts as
they try to make up their minds.

I have decided I would be better off fishing than dealing with some people.

Walt C



"Rick Cook" wrote in message
ink.net...
Vic Baron wrote:
Simply put - go with your gut - chances are he will find something else
to
change AFTER you've done most of the work. Be polite but kiss him
goodbye.

V

This is good advice before accepting any commission. If the customer or
the job don't 'feel right' to you then either ask for a whole bunch of
money up front or politely decline.

Someone made the point that economically it's better to put your time to
use on a low paying job than to sit idle. Economically that's correct.
However you have to factor in what it does to you as a person. If it makes
you feel resentful or taken advantage of, you're better off sitting idle,
economics or no.

--RC


"Tattooed and Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...

Hi All,
So in the past several months I have started turning my wood and metal
working hobbies into the way I make my money. It feels good to be
working for myself, making clients happy, and learning more and more
about small business ownership. I was wondering if anyone has any
advice on how to avoid a somewhat common problem I seem to running
into.

So I was contacted by a prospective client, wants to have a custom bed
designed. Looks at my portfolio and decides I am the guy to do it,
though I don't think he looked at anyone else's. We schedule a design
meeting and I ask him to bring some images, sketches etc of beds that
he either likes or doesn't like so we have a jump off place. He doesn't
do this, fine we talk some anyways. Seems he likes an idea I am
currently working on for another client, though wants to look at some
more mass produced beds to have a better sense of how to tweak my
design. Fine. I quote him the very large window of 600-1000 for
something like the headboard and footboard I am working on currently.

A couple weeks goes by. He emails me and says he went to go look at
some beds, and found one at a local scandanavian design place that he
likes the idea of, and wants to combine my project with one from that
store. Says they have them for 600, so he wants to spend no more than
that. This is when I start to contemplate dropping him. I want the
commision, but only so much. I email back, as diplomatically as I can
saying, I would love to work more on the design but that I can't and
don't want to compete with the mass made products. That I will use
higher quality materials, it will be made in town, to his
specifications etc. He replys saying that he can afford 600, and could
make 800 work. I say well lets go ahead and get together, look at what
he has in mind, let me come up with something, and see if it can come
in around that amount. I don't like designing with this hard ceiling,
as it frequently means I take the job for less than I would normally
want, but I like the work.

Today he emails me, asks if I can carve. Now all the other designs even
mentioned have been very clean, very modern, nothing even remotely
carved. Says he went to a furniture store, found a 2" thick 4 poster,
carved bed, and was wondering if I could replicate with some
modifications. Now I came to furniture through sculpture, and I can
infact carve. But no way in hell I am going to carve a full size bed,
for less than 800.

What should I do in this situation? Is there some way to avoid this
situation entirely? Does anyone ever ask for a retainer after the first
meeting? An odd question, but I started feeling like nothing was going
to come of this guy from the first meeting.

Any advice at all?

Thanks
Andrew