On 21 Dec 2004 13:28:20 -0800, "
wrote:

You don't think this is a problem?

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG

I hadn't noticed those two yet - nasty.

The first machine is probably illegal to operate in the UK in a
commercial workshop and is _certainly_ so in a school workshop.

In fact the first one just isn't something _I'd_ do. That's the most
common table-mounted router accident requiring a hospital visit
(according to the HSE's figures) - a blind emerging cut, where the
pushing hand goes straight into the unseen cutter.


The second picture is one I'd cheerfully do, but I'd never let kids do
it. _I_ have some idea of where my fingers are, where the bit is, and
how far to separate them. Kids can't reliably do that.

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:42:01 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 21 Dec 2004 13:28:20 -0800, "
wrote:

You don't think this is a problem?

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...in%20Dylan.jpg

http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Plaques%20and%20frames/plaque%20(Tabitha).JPG

I hadn't noticed those two yet - nasty.

The first machine is probably illegal to operate in the UK in a
commercial workshop and is _certainly_ so in a school workshop.

In fact the first one just isn't something _I'd_ do. That's the most
common table-mounted router accident requiring a hospital visit
(according to the HSE's figures) - a blind emerging cut, where the
pushing hand goes straight into the unseen cutter.


A blind emerging cut 1/4" high with a 3 1/2" high workpiece is considered
hazardous? Just how would one make such a roundover in the UK? Surely a
hand-held router would be considered even more dangerous (free-spinning
unguarded bit along with chance for router kickback if the person forgets
the proper feed direction -- see your comment below regarding kids).


The second picture is one I'd cheerfully do, but I'd never let kids do
it. _I_ have some idea of where my fingers are, where the bit is, and
how far to separate them. Kids can't reliably do that.

I think you are underestimating young teens. I know that when my dad
taught me how to use power tools, the single most important comment he made
was, "that blade doesn't know the difference between your finger and a
piece of wood -- know where it is at all times. Seeing how that girl's
concentration as she is making the cut, it appears she has been similarly
admonished.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:15:26 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

A blind emerging cut 1/4" high with a 3 1/2" high workpiece is considered
hazardous?

I can't see how big the workpiece is from that picture. Maybe it's not
really that hazardous.

It's certainly _considered_ hazardous - the HSE are having a real
thing about emerging cuts. Looking at the actual stats for hand
injuries, they seem to have a point. We might all just be careless
drunks working with our eyes shut, but that's when the injuries are
happening.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis18.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm

Just how would one make such a roundover in the UK?

Same way as in the picture - but not feeding it with your fingers.

For a commercial workshop there's a strong pressure to fit tunnel
guards for this find of work

To be honest, you're going to find no (UK) school workshops and very
few colleges with spindle moulders.


Surely a
hand-held router would be considered even more dangerous

Depends on circumstances. There's a good working principle in PUWER
which says that works should be done on the least-risk machine - which
means the fixed vertical spindle, if you have one. However spindle
moulders have a bad reputation in the UK and many people avoid having
one altogether - leaving them with the free router.


I think you are underestimating young teens.

I'm probably underestimating that one, but deliberately so. You have
to plan around the worst behaved and least attentive of the group.
This is also the one most likely to whine "But _Siirr_, you let Sammy
Maloof use the bandsaw!"

If you can filter the group, perhaps a woodworking club, then you can
achieve a lot more. Your best pupils are still the same, but you don't
have to account for the less able or committed to the same extent.
--
Smert' spamionam

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 21 Dec 2004 13:28:20 -0800, "
wrote:

You don't think this is a problem?


http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...oors%20plain%2
0Dylan.jpg


http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/...%20frames/plaq
ue%20(Tabitha).JPG

I hadn't noticed those two yet - nasty.

The first machine is probably illegal to operate in the UK in a
commercial workshop and is _certainly_ so in a school workshop.

In fact the first one just isn't something _I'd_ do. That's the most
common table-mounted router accident requiring a hospital visit
(according to the HSE's figures) - a blind emerging cut, where the
pushing hand goes straight into the unseen cutter.

Through 3" of wood? I think not.



The second picture is one I'd cheerfully do, but I'd never let kids do
it. _I_ have some idea of where my fingers are, where the bit is, and
how far to separate them. Kids can't reliably do that.


I have to respectfully disagree Andy. My own kids are proof of that and
I've had a few other kids that were either neighborhood kids or the kids of
friends, who over the years I've taught a bit of wood working to, or have
for one reason or another, have done wood working in my garage. I assure
you - not all and even *most* kids that are interested in this stuff are not
the absent minded air heads you typically find in the shopping malls.
There's a world of bright, attentive kids out there. If you haven't crossed
paths with them, then that's truly a shame, because it does your heart good
to work with them. They can indeed reliably function in a wood working
shop.

I've read more stuff here that concerns me than what I've seen and
experienced with the attentiveness and capability of the kids I've worked
with.
--

-Mike-