My insurance company wants to inspect my small metal/wood/welding shop in
rented industrial space. I believe my setup is very safe and meets most (if
not all) NEC, OSHA, etc. code. But I don't know how picky this guy is going
to be. Perhaps he is going to make sure he finds something in order to
justify his fee to the insurance company. Has anyone gone through this
before? Care to share any tips which may not be obvious?

TeamCasa wrote:

Most of these guys are really out to help (both the insurance company
who retained them and the business in my experience. Occasionally
you'll find one who's a thwarted early-year OSHA inspector, but by and
large the insurance guys are much more to tuned to reality. If,
however, he does find an actual code violation you can be sure he'll
flag it --of course, that's better than the actual OSHA or other
regulatory inspector finding it...

"TeamCasa" wrote in message
...
Al,
The list is long and overwhelming. However, most of these guys are
looking for the simple stuff.


I go through this once a year. In addition, make sure any three prong cords
have the ground prong in place. Fans should be plastic housings or
otherwise protected. He may want to see your employee training setup, when
was the last fire drill, emergency action and fire prevention plans, and
hazardous material communications program. Fork lift truck training,
propane storage, chemical and solvent storage. Not to mention exit signs and
good lighting

They are more interested in helping you be a safe employer rather that try
to shut you down and raise premiums. Listen to the guy, show him anything
he wants to see. My last inspector said he like to see a shop with music
blaring and employees all but dancing as happy people are safe people.

Put the guards back on the machines and have safety glasses and hearing
protection available even if not needed.

This sounds a bit too naughty for this time of year (a chance of getting
coal and all), but a trick around here, IF your shop is otherwise in
fine shape... leave the inspector a 'find'. A glaring, yet innocuous
violation, like a blade-guard (which normally wouldn't be there at all)
tied back with a string--- he finds it, you instantly fix it, and he's
happy and out the door. The less they find, the harder they look.
You have to make them feel like they are doing their job.

me bad


I agree. I had a fire inspector call to come by. I unscrewed bulbs in
an exit sign. Once found that was the end of the inspection.

If you have any chemicals more hazardous than water, better move them
off site...

AL wrote:

My insurance company wants to inspect my small metal/wood/welding shop in
rented industrial space. I believe my setup is very safe and meets most (if
not all) NEC, OSHA, etc. code. But I don't know how picky this guy is going
to be. Perhaps he is going to make sure he finds something in order to
justify his fee to the insurance company. Has anyone gone through this
before? Care to share any tips which may not be obvious?

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
All good sugestions here. I go through this a few times a year. My best
strategy is to have everything as good as I can but I leave a few "Red
Hearings" for him to find.

I never did that, never would even consider it. We try to maintain a save
and clean shop even if no one is watching.

Is't his job to find something wrong, make it easy for him or he WILL
find something else!!!

OK, so let him. He is trying to avoid claims and improve your operation.
I'll take his tips and help.

I have a 30,000' 100 yr.+ old building and there's no way an inspector won't
find something. I'll bet you anything I could "FIND" enough wrong with your
faculity to shut you down...depending on my mood.


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:tvZxd.3822$He3.1023@trndny05...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
All good sugestions here. I go through this a few times a year. My best
strategy is to have everything as good as I can but I leave a few "Red
Hearings" for him to find.

I never did that, never would even consider it. We try to maintain a
save and clean shop even if no one is watching.

Is't his job to find something wrong, make it easy for him or he WILL
find something else!!!

OK, so let him. He is trying to avoid claims and improve your operation.
I'll take his tips and help.

Tom Gardner wrote:

I have a 30,000' 100 yr.+ old building and there's no way an inspector won't
find something. I'll bet you anything I could "FIND" enough wrong with your
faculity to shut you down...depending on my mood.
....

But, in general, that's not a productive approach/mindset...

I'll send you a pair of my shoes, try 'em on.


"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

I have a 30,000' 100 yr.+ old building and there's no way an inspector
won't
find something. I'll bet you anything I could "FIND" enough wrong with
your
faculity to shut you down...depending on my mood.
...

But, in general, that's not a productive approach/mindset...

Tom Gardner wrote:

I'll send you a pair of my shoes, try 'em on.

boots, only, please...

Tom Gardner responds:

I'll send you a pair of my shoes, try 'em on.


"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

I have a 30,000' 100 yr.+ old building and there's no way an inspector
won't
find something. I'll bet you anything I could "FIND" enough wrong with
your
faculity to shut you down...depending on my mood.
...

But, in general, that's not a productive approach/mindset...

And how does that help improve the safety in the OP's shop? That's what the
insurance inspector is supposed to be doing, not trying to find something to
shut him down, which does nothing but deprive the insurance company of a
premium.

Charlie Self
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." George Orwell

I invited the fire department over to inspect my shop. They liked my
safety gear, first aid kit, fire extinguishers, smoke alarms, etc.
One guy liked the way I soldered hardware cloth to the fluorescent
light reflectors to protect the bulbs. They did not like the cans of
finish and paints I had stored on metal shelving.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"TeamCasa" wrote in message
...

Al,
The list is long and overwhelming. However, most of these guys are
looking for the simple stuff.



I go through this once a year. In addition, make sure any three prong cords
have the ground prong in place. Fans should be plastic housings or
otherwise protected. He may want to see your employee training setup, when
was the last fire drill, emergency action and fire prevention plans, and
hazardous material communications program. Fork lift truck training,
propane storage, chemical and solvent storage. Not to mention exit signs and
good lighting

They are more interested in helping you be a safe employer rather that try
to shut you down and raise premiums. Listen to the guy, show him anything
he wants to see. My last inspector said he like to see a shop with music
blaring and employees all but dancing as happy people are safe people.

Put the guards back on the machines and have safety glasses and hearing
protection available even if not needed.


I remember the time OSHA went through a Ultra high tech Radar site.
My dad was the senior most person there other than the General and sometimes
higher due to certain clearances he needed.

He got tagged because of his Polly Perk - those plastic coffee pots that had
(as most today do) a two prong plug. It sat on his desk.

He took the cord to the shop and drilled out the rivet in the pot side,
secured a three prong plug/cable and stripped 6" from the end. Cut the black
and white lines short and attached the socket for the poly side. The Ground
looped back from this socket and then up to a Green tagged lug. This lug was
sheet metal screwed into the side of the perk.

That mod passed OSHA.

He naturally used a SS screw - didn't want the iron taste!

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

In article , "Tom
Gardner" says...
All good sugestions here. I go through this a few times a year. My best
strategy is to have everything as good as I can but I leave a few "Red
Hearings" for him to find. Simple things and easy to fix like covers off of
electrical boxes, chains around welding tanks unhooked, pile of debris in
the middle of an isle, guard off of a machine.... Is't his job to find
something wrong, make it easy for him or he WILL find something else!!!

Some insurance inspectors are like that, others understand that the
company has already agreed to insure the risk, and their job is to help
both the owner and the insurance company reduce the risk of losses. I'm
happy to have one of the latter working for me now as an agent -- sure,
he knows what not to insure, but he also knows that nobody is perfect,
so you have to present the risk to the underwriter in a reasonable
light.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

In article ,
says...
Tom Gardner wrote:

I have a 30,000' 100 yr.+ old building and there's no way an inspector won't
find something. I'll bet you anything I could "FIND" enough wrong with your
faculity to shut you down...depending on my mood.
...

But, in general, that's not a productive approach/mindset...

If the insurance company did a good job underwriting the application in
the first place, then they won't be looking for reasons to dump it. But
not every company does a good job the first time, and not every loss
control inspector understands their job as reducing risk while keeping
the customer. If it's the first time this inspector has inspected the
risk for this insurance company, then sure, I can see being nervous
about it, even if that doesn't seem like a productive approach.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

Joshua Putnam wrote:

....
... I can see being nervous
about it, even if that doesn't seem like a productive approach.

Yeah, but that's a far cry from the "treat it like an inquisition"
approach...

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
....
He took the cord to the shop and drilled ...
secured ... stripped ... Cut ... attached ... screwed ...

Me, I woulda' cut the 2-prong plug off and put on a 3-prong.

I'll send you the hip-boots I wear when I visit this NG!


"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Tom Gardner wrote:

I'll send you a pair of my shoes, try 'em on.

boots, only, please...

"Joshua Putnam" wrote in message

If the insurance company did a good job underwriting the application in
the first place, then they won't be looking for reasons to dump it. But
not every company does a good job the first time, and not every loss
control inspector understands their job as reducing risk while keeping
the customer. If it's the first time this inspector has inspected the
risk for this insurance company, then sure, I can see being nervous
about it, even if that doesn't seem like a productive approach.

Insurance companies are in business to make profit. To do that, they need
customers. The best customers are the ones that pay their premiums on time
and have few claims. The company that insures us gives a seminar at least
once a year of topics such as safety, workman's comp claims, drug testing,
etc.

They help us avoid problems as a partnership, not the Gestapo to give us a
hard time. Listen to the inspector and his report as it can save you money.
Ed

Back in the 80's, our liability policy was canceled shortly after an
inspection visit. Since we'd had the policy for many years, I was
puzzled and asked our agent to check out what happened. It turned out
that the inspector noticed we had installed an eye wash station, and
assumed we were using hazardous materials (not true). The insurance
company used his inspection report to decide not to renew our policy.

Business insurance is a weird world, and it gets stranger all the time.
Don't assume anyone is your friend or ally, no matter what their
brochure might say.


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Joshua Putnam" wrote in message

If the insurance company did a good job underwriting the application in
the first place, then they won't be looking for reasons to dump it. But
not every company does a good job the first time, and not every loss
control inspector understands their job as reducing risk while keeping
the customer. If it's the first time this inspector has inspected the
risk for this insurance company, then sure, I can see being nervous
about it, even if that doesn't seem like a productive approach.


Insurance companies are in business to make profit. To do that, they need
customers. The best customers are the ones that pay their premiums on time
and have few claims. The company that insures us gives a seminar at least
once a year of topics such as safety, workman's comp claims, drug testing,
etc.

They help us avoid problems as a partnership, not the Gestapo to give us a
hard time. Listen to the inspector and his report as it can save you money.
Ed

In article ,
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:

I remember the time OSHA went through a Ultra high tech Radar site.
My dad was the senior most person there other than the General and sometimes
higher due to certain clearances he needed.

He got tagged because of his Polly Perk - those plastic coffee pots that had
(as most today do) a two prong plug. It sat on his desk.

He took the cord to the shop and drilled out the rivet in the pot side,
secured a three prong plug/cable and stripped 6" from the end. Cut the black
and white lines short and attached the socket for the poly side. The Ground
looped back from this socket and then up to a Green tagged lug. This lug was
sheet metal screwed into the side of the perk.

That mod passed OSHA.

He naturally used a SS screw - didn't want the iron taste!

I think if that were my dad he would have "installed" the coffee pot
into the OSHA guy's windshield.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:50:02 GMT, "AL" wrote:


Then we chatted for a while and he took a picture of the
outside of the building. Then he left. The whole thing took less than 5
minutes.

The holiday week inspection.

I've seen them. G

Barry

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message

Lamp oil burns - maybe cutting oil burns ?
Martin


Or a contamination hazard if spilled?

In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message

Lamp oil burns - maybe cutting oil burns ?
Martin


Or a contamination hazard if spilled?

That would be the about only real reason to be concerned about it that I
can think up. Otherwise, the stuff is, as Al said, "pretty much inert",
at least in terms of fire hazard. Physical/chemical hazard is another
question entirely - one that I haven't got a clue about. I imagine
dropping concentrated chlorine into it would be a bad thing, as would
letting it come in contact with other strong oxidizers, and of course,
there's the classic "banana peel" scenario that a puddle of it on the
floor could cause.

Albany Georgia, about 1996, the shiney new Lowes (Open for less than 8
months, if I remember things right) burned to the ground. Cause was
later determined from witness testimony to be a customer managing to
somehow combine pool chlorine from one side of the store with paint
thinner on the other side of the store. Resulting mix went up more or
less like napalm, taking the entire store with it. And I do mean the
*ENTIRE* store - The only thing left standing when the smoke cleared was
a 20-ish foot long section of concrete block wall, and that was so
warped out of shape that it could barely be called "standing". Either
item by itself was a non-issue - Put em together, and you've got a
multi-million dollar fire and a "Closed until we rebuild" sign in the
parking lot...

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:50:02 GMT, "AL" wrote:


Then we chatted for a while and he took a picture of the
outside of the building. Then he left. The whole thing took less than 5
minutes.

The holiday week inspection.

I've seen them. G

Nah, he's already decided to deny any claims, so he didn't need to look
much....

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:33:32 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:

- maybe cutting oil burns ?

I'd expect it to burn just about as well as lamp oil - namely, with
great difficulty in getting it ignited (unless some sort of wick or
atomizing method is used)


like a mist feed coolant system?

Don Bruder writes:

Albany Georgia, about 1996, the shiney new Lowes (Open for less than 8
months, if I remember things right) burned to the ground. Cause was
later determined from witness testimony to be a customer managing to
somehow combine pool chlorine from one side of the store with paint
thinner on the other side of the store. Resulting mix went up more or
less like napalm, taking the entire store with it. And I do mean the
*ENTIRE* store - The only thing left standing when the smoke cleared was

Wouldn't a modern store like Lowes have a sprinkler system to prevent the
building from burning to the ground?

I noticed around here that Home Depot even has sprinklers in the shelving
units in the paint department.

Brian Elfert

In article ,
Brian Elfert wrote:

Don Bruder writes:

Albany Georgia, about 1996, the shiney new Lowes (Open for less than 8
months, if I remember things right) burned to the ground. Cause was
later determined from witness testimony to be a customer managing to
somehow combine pool chlorine from one side of the store with paint
thinner on the other side of the store. Resulting mix went up more or
less like napalm, taking the entire store with it. And I do mean the
*ENTIRE* store - The only thing left standing when the smoke cleared was

Wouldn't a modern store like Lowes have a sprinkler system to prevent the
building from burning to the ground?

I noticed around here that Home Depot even has sprinklers in the shelving
units in the paint department.

Brian Elfert

They had sprinklers. Clearly visible. Whether they were operational, or
even had a chance to activate, is another question altogether.

From witness testimony, it sounds like essentially what happened was a
fireball erupted in the paint department, and damn near the whole place
was on fire within minutes. By the time I managed to navigate the 6-8
blocks from my home to a clear vantage point of what was burning (took
all of about 5 minutes from the time I heard the series of explosions
and noticed the smoke plume) the entire store was a mass of flames that
I could feel the heat from on my face from roughly half a mile away, and
chunks of burned foam and similar material the size of basketballs were
starting to rain down in the downwind area. My home was in the "fallout
pattern", and it took me literally DAYS to get all of that crap cleaned
out of the landlord's swimming pool. It drifted around the area like
weird black snow for weeks afterwards, reeking of "burnt" and leaving
streaks of soot on everything it came in contact with. Not certain
exactly what it was, but I suspect probably quite a bit of stacked
styrofoam or similar insulation board was the source.

I've never heard whether anyone died in that fire, though I expect that
if anyone had, it would have been front-page news in the local
fish-wrap. Not a peep on that score, despite some heavy coverage of the
fire itself during the following days, so I can only assume everyone who
was inside somehow made it out OK.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.