Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff
or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, (JMWEBER987) wrote:

Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff
or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas



http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/ht...ls_varnish.htm

Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. BRBR

Urethane is not varnish. Not even all varnishes are alike. What do you need
vrnish for? If it;s for exterior or waterproof use, get a marine spar varnish.
If not, then you can probably use Waterlox instead. It wipes on, self levels
and barely needs any sanding.

urethane has no flexibility at all, so it can crack. I almost never use it.

"JMWEBER987" writes:

Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with
for
use as a wipe on.

Forget it, they don't have a clue what varnish is.

If you truly need varnish, shop at marine chandeleries such as Jamestown
Distributors.

Don't be shocked at the price.

HTH

Lew

What do you needvrnish for

Well, I'm doing some finish testing for a bed being built. Wipe on poly was
available but most people here discourage using Polyurethane because of it's
plasitic look. I have several samples of different stains on red oak topcoated
with Olympic oil. I wanted to try a wipe on varnish on new samples of the two
colors I like best and see if I liked that better than the oil as a topcoat.
Depending on what it looks like I will need very little or a lot so I just
wanted to get a small can for testing.
Mike in Arkansas

On 01 Dec 2004 04:30:45 GMT, (JMWEBER987) wrote:

What do you needvrnish for

Well, I'm doing some finish testing for a bed being built. Wipe on poly was
available but most people here discourage using Polyurethane because of it's
plasitic look. I have several samples of different stains on red oak topcoated
with Olympic oil. I wanted to try a wipe on varnish on new samples of the two
colors I like best and see if I liked that better than the oil as a topcoat.
Depending on what it looks like I will need very little or a lot so I just
wanted to get a small can for testing.
Mike in Arkansas

YMMV, but I've found that the Watco Wipe-on poly is thin enough that it
doesn't give that plastic look.

JMWEBER987 wrote:

Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with
for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
varnish and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something
else altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
stuff
or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other
bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes.
All varnish is not polyurethane and all polyurethane is not varnish.

Whether a polyurethane varnish is suited to your purpose depends on your
purpose.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

DarylRos wrote:

Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. BRBR

Urethane is not varnish. Not even all varnishes are alike. What do you
need vrnish for? If it;s for exterior or waterproof use, get a marine spar
varnish. If not, then you can probably use Waterlox instead. It wipes on,
self levels and barely needs any sanding.

urethane has no flexibility at all, so it can crack. I almost never use
it.

Polyurethane can have a great deal of flexibility. It all depends on what
you buy. "Polyurethane" covers a quite broad range of materials.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Mark & Juanita wrote:
On 01 Dec 2004 04:30:45 GMT, (JMWEBER987) wrote:
YMMV, but I've found that the Watco Wipe-on poly is thin enough that it
doesn't give that plastic look.

Also, don't forget, that it depends a lot how much you put on per layer,
and how many layers you put on. I'm especially partial to shellac
underneath (to seal and "pop" the grain) and poly on top in very very
thin layers. You end up with a durable finish that doesn't look
plasticy at all.

-BAT

(JMWEBER987) wrote in
:

What do you needvrnish for

Well, I'm doing some finish testing for a bed being built. Wipe on
poly was available but most people here discourage using Polyurethane
because of it's plasitic look. I have several samples of different
stains on red oak topcoated with Olympic oil. I wanted to try a wipe
on varnish on new samples of the two colors I like best and see if I
liked that better than the oil as a topcoat. Depending on what it
looks like I will need very little or a lot so I just wanted to get a
small can for testing. Mike in Arkansas

The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like
Watco, only with a lot more solids (resins). So it builds much more
quickly. Two or three coats on red oak, and you're ready for wax, if you
want to tone down the gloss. Application is incredibly easy, and it brings
a nice, mild amber tone to unstained red oak.

See if you can find a sample...

Patriarch

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:38:25 GMT, patriarch
wrote:


The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like
Watco, only with a lot more solids (resins). So it builds much more
quickly. T

Waterlox also makes a urethane product that can be thinned and wiped
on. The urethane and Original are both excellent products.

Tung Oil varnishes are sold under the brands McCloskey (Tung Seal and
Gym Seal), and Hope's, among others.

Pratt and Lambert makes terrific alkyd varnishes, available at any
paint store that carries P&L products.

Still want poly? ANY polyurethane can be thinned down to become
"wiping poly", just like Minwax and Watco.

Plain old boiled linseed oil, from any hardware store will pop figure
under any of the above or shellac.

** Don't forget that varnish and BLO rags can spontaneously combust,
don't leave them around all balled up! **

Have fun,
Barry

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:11:53 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Forget it, they don't have a clue what varnish is.

So what is it ?

patriarch wrote:

snip
The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like
Watco, only with a lot more solids (resins). So it builds much more
quickly. Two or three coats on red oak, and you're ready for wax, if you
want to tone down the gloss. Application is incredibly easy, and it
brings a nice, mild amber tone to unstained red oak.

See if you can find a sample...

Patriarch

At the local Woodcraft store they have Waterlox samples in little
pouches...should be more than enough to test on your samples. Samples of
several Waterlox products are available...something like $2.00 each IIRC.

Walt

I agree that brush-on poly can look plastic-like. About the only thing I
have used it on recently is a hardwood bar top. Yup, it looks like plastic.

However I have used MinWax wipe on poly and it does a pretty good job of
simulating oil. Others have said that the Watco wipe-on is even better but
I have not used it yet. It does provide similar iridescence (for lack of a
better word) as oil, in that the grain changes its character as light and
your perspective changes.

I apply it in a similar manner as oil by flooding the first coat and letting
it soak. Then wiping off excess. However subsequent coats are done lightly
allowing the finsh to build slowly. A durable top such as a table will
require several coats. I have built some tops to 7-8 coats because the
product is very thin. Use the usual process for light sanding that you
would for Danish or other finishes. Probably sounds silly but I often
burnish the final coat or two with a piece of brown grocery bag (probably
equivalent to about 600 to 800 grit paper and always available in the
pantry). The good news is you can usually sand and overcoat on 2 to 4 hour
intervals depending on temp and humidity

FWIW, "Varnish" is generic term. Look it up in a dictionary.

Paint, Polyurethane, Shellac, and other top coatings are Varnishes. They
can be oil, alcohol, or water based.


varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in
oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on
exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for
the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent,
translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or
gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile
solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish
with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a
volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the
sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for
the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's,
patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture
varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy
cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied
when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and
other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their
instruments.varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic
resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which
dries on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is
used for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent,
translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or
gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile
solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish
with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a
volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the
sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for
the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's,
patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture
varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy
cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied
when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and
other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their
instruments.




"JMWEBER987" wrote in message
...
Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with
for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
varnish
and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else
altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
stuff
or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:11:53 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Forget it, they don't have a clue what varnish is.

So what is it ?


"ANY" product that is applied to cover a surface. Paint, Shellac,
Polyurethane, All Varnishes. Varnish is a generic term. Varnish is not
restricted to being oil, or water based.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
JMWEBER987 wrote:

There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other
bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes.

All varnish is not polyurethane

True. Shellac and Paint are "Varnishes".



and all polyurethane is not varnish.

False. Unless you are relating to something like Polyurethane Glue.

Varnish is a generic term for anything that is used for the protection or
decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted.

On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, JMWEBER987 wrote:
Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it
with for use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans
labeled Urethane. Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what
they have. Ha, a can of varnish. Read the back and it says 100%
urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish and urethane are the same thing
and poly-urethane is something else altogether. Right?? Wrong??. The
brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff or would I be
better off buying something online like Watco or the like from one of
the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

Get yourself a copy of Bob Flexnor (sp) book "Understanding Wood
Finishing." He cuts through a lot of the hype, black magic, and pure BS
of wood finishing.

"Varnish" is synthetic resin in an oil-based carrier.

It was a substitute for Shellac, which is subject to the uncertainty of
shipping from India--much less of a concern now than in earlier times.

Polyurethane is the most common type of resin used in the varnishes in
Big Box stores.

Any film finish built up thick enough is going to look and feel like
"plastic" because it essentially IS plastic. We get "plastic" look and
feel from Poly partly because the brushed on product "Meets VOC
Standards" by being (imo) too thick in the can and needing a bit of
thinning--and partly--heck probably mostly-- 'cuz it's the first finish
most of us attempt and we use it to cover up our mistakes . .

Disclaimer: I am NOT a coatings chemist, nor do I play one on
Television. Moreover, I've never used a finish more complicated than
brushed shellac.

On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, (JMWEBER987) spake the
words:

Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff

If you swear by Microsoft, buy ALL the brands the TV commercials tell
you to buy, and spray paint on your head to cover your bald spot, go
for it. You obviously won't know the difference. ;(

The reason I'm so down on poly is that very few people can put on a
urethane finish without making it look like the piece was wrapped in
Saran and they're prone to miniscule bubbles which make it look even
worse. Abused, it's a cheesy finish which is hell to repair. The
wipe-on polys are better, a step in the right direction, IMHO.

Otherwise, use a non-urethane varnish which won't have to be stripped
with the most caustic aircraft paint remover known to man.


or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

Yes, or Russ at http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com/Varnishes.htm

Yes, Watco (very small amount of varnish), Waterlox (tung oil + more
varnish), and Tried & True varnish-oil are all great varnish-based
finishes. I've always loved varnish above all other finishes, despite
its longer drying time, though I haven't found a straight poly-free
varnish recently. I stopped looking when I found Waterlox. Since I
don't do glossy finishes (rubbing the gloss down to satin with 0000
steel wool and paste wax once it's dry), I don't have to worry about
slower-drying varnish gathering dust as much as gloss lovers do.



-------------------------------------------------------------
give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com
i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online
-------------------------------------------------------------

In article , jmweber987
@aol.com says...
Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish
and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff
or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

If you accept the current generic definition of varnish, a surface
finish of oil, carrier/thinner, resin, polyurethane and urethane are
varnishes. The only difference being the type of resin used and the hype
the advertisement people give it.

If you want to get picky about it and throw in archaic definitions the
whole mess can get quite complex.

My take is that, for almost all practical purposes, it matters little
which octane varnish is used. Of course my take is also to avoid varnish
whenever possible and practical.

You also will find spar/marine varnish. This is a long oil varnish, a
higher ration of oil to resin making for a more flexible finish that can
better accommodate the movement of wood in an outdoor environment.
However it is still a surface finish made up of an oil, carrier/thinner,
resin.

Hope it helps
--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

In article WTlrd.3315$zK1.1102@trndny05, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles"
"Charles says...
On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, JMWEBER987 wrote:
Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it
with for use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans
labeled Urethane. Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what
they have. Ha, a can of varnish. Read the back and it says 100%
urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish and urethane are the same thing
and poly-urethane is something else altogether. Right?? Wrong??. The
brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff or would I be
better off buying something online like Watco or the like from one of
the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

Get yourself a copy of Bob Flexnor (sp) book "Understanding Wood
Finishing." He cuts through a lot of the hype, black magic, and pure BS
of wood finishing.

"Varnish" is synthetic resin in an oil-based carrier.

It was a substitute for Shellac, which is subject to the uncertainty of
shipping from India--much less of a concern now than in earlier times.

Polyurethane is the most common type of resin used in the varnishes in
Big Box stores.

Any film finish built up thick enough is going to look and feel like
"plastic" because it essentially IS plastic. We get "plastic" look and
feel from Poly partly because the brushed on product "Meets VOC
Standards" by being (imo) too thick in the can and needing a bit of
thinning--and partly--heck probably mostly-- 'cuz it's the first finish
most of us attempt and we use it to cover up our mistakes . .

Disclaimer: I am NOT a coatings chemist, nor do I play one on
Television. Moreover, I've never used a finish more complicated than
brushed shellac.


A very good summary in all but one point. The resin need not be
synthetic. There are still some makers out there that use natural resins
such as rosin and amber. Tried and True finishes is one example.


--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:46:27 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Look it up in a dictionary.

Why ? When did dictionaries become an authority on technical terms?
Even if you ask the OWLs themselves they don't claim to be the
creators of language, only it's documentors. When you get to
technical or craft terminology, dictionaries produced by general
lexicographers are often carefully accurate over their source
citations, but vague or downright wrong over meanings.

For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
such as turpentine.

Well that's the description of someone who's never tried it. Have you
ever made copal dissolve in oil ?

--
Smert' spamionam

Leon wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
JMWEBER987 wrote:

There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other
bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes.

All varnish is not polyurethane

True. Shellac and Paint are "Varnishes".



and all polyurethane is not varnish.

False. Unless you are relating to something like Polyurethane Glue.

Now let's see, I guess that Imron, Awlgrip, and Irathane are all varnishes.
I guess that the 3M 8561 Transparent Film that we used to use to protect
the heaters on the DHC-7 was a varnish.

Varnish is a generic term for anything that is used for the protection or
decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted.

I see. So the piece of lucite I have covering my desktop is varnish? After
all it's used for protection of a surface and is transparent. Polyurethane
refers to large family of plastics with varied properties and uses. While
it is used for transparent coatings, that is only one minor use to which it
is put. Take a look at http://www.irproducts.com/ for a wide range of
polurethane products most of which are not adhesives or surface coatings.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Leon wrote:


"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 03:11:53 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Forget it, they don't have a clue what varnish is.

So what is it ?


"ANY" product that is applied to cover a surface. Paint, Shellac,
Polyurethane, All Varnishes. Varnish is a generic term. Varnish is not
restricted to being oil, or water based.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, varnish is "Resinous matter
dissolved in some liquid and used for spreading over a surface in order to
give this a hard, shining, transparent coat, by which it is made more
durable or ornamental".

Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
transparency test. If one wants to be pedantic then 100% solids
transparent urethane would also not be "varnish" because it's not dissolved
in anything, it's all "resinous matter".

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Leon wrote:

FWIW, "Varnish" is generic term. Look it up in a dictionary.

I did. The Oxford. It excludes paint, and if one is being pedantic it
excludes polyesters, epoxies, and some urethanes.

Paint, Polyurethane, Shellac, and other top coatings are Varnishes. They
can be oil, alcohol, or water based.


varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in
oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries
on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film.

So how about if it's a liquid that cures solid without ever being dissolved
in anything?

It is used
for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent,
translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a
fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil
(commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent
such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or
gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a
volatile solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel
is varnish with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative
dissolved in a volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in
the East from the sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their
constituents or for the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet,
carriage, bookbinder's, patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac,
and copal picture varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the
Egyptians coated mummy cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins
dissolved in oil and applied when warm. Another early use was for coating
oil paintings. Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying
linseed oil varnish on their instruments.varnish, homogeneous solution of
gum or of natural or synthetic resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a
volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on exposure to air, forming
a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for the protection or
decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted. For
oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a fossilized plant exudation such
as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil (commonly linseed oil or tung oil)
and is diluted with a volatile solvent such as turpentine. Spirit
varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or gums, such as shellac,
dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile solvent, e.g.,
alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish with added
pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a volatile
solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the sap of
trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for the
proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's,
patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture
varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy
cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and
applied when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings.
Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish
on their instruments.




"JMWEBER987" wrote in message
...
Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it
with for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
varnish
and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else
altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
stuff
or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Larry Jaques wrote:

On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, (JMWEBER987) spake the
words:

Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with
for
use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled
Urethane.
Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can
of
varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming
varnish and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something
else altogether.
Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this
stuff

If you swear by Microsoft, buy ALL the brands the TV commercials tell
you to buy, and spray paint on your head to cover your bald spot, go
for it. You obviously won't know the difference. ;(

The reason I'm so down on poly is that very few people can put on a
urethane finish without making it look like the piece was wrapped in
Saran and they're prone to miniscule bubbles which make it look even
worse. Abused, it's a cheesy finish which is hell to repair. The
wipe-on polys are better, a step in the right direction, IMHO.

Otherwise, use a non-urethane varnish which won't have to be stripped
with the most caustic aircraft paint remover known to man.

Uh, there are paint removers that will remove cured polyurethane from epoxy
without damaging the epoxy. The ones that remove the epoxy too are "the
most caustic aircraft paint removers known to man".


or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like
from
one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas

Yes, or Russ at http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com/Varnishes.htm

Yes, Watco (very small amount of varnish), Waterlox (tung oil + more
varnish), and Tried & True varnish-oil are all great varnish-based
finishes. I've always loved varnish above all other finishes, despite
its longer drying time, though I haven't found a straight poly-free
varnish recently. I stopped looking when I found Waterlox. Since I
don't do glossy finishes (rubbing the gloss down to satin with 0000
steel wool and paste wax once it's dry), I don't have to worry about
slower-drying varnish gathering dust as much as gloss lovers do.



-------------------------------------------------------------
give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com
i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online
-------------------------------------------------------------

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, varnish is "Resinous matter
dissolved in some liquid and used for spreading over a surface in order to
give this a hard, shining, transparent coat, by which it is made more
durable or ornamental".

Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
transparency test. If one wants to be pedantic then 100% solids
transparent urethane would also not be "varnish" because it's not
dissolved
in anything, it's all "resinous matter".


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition



var·nish (vär'nÄ*sh)
n.

1.. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder,
used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film.
2.. The smooth coating or gloss resulting from the application of this
paint.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

Now let's see, I guess that Imron, Awlgrip, and Irathane are all
varnishes.
I guess that the 3M 8561 Transparent Film that we used to use to protect
the heaters on the DHC-7 was a varnish.

Ok, Now you are assuming that all paints are opaque.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:46:27 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Look it up in a dictionary.

Why ? When did dictionaries become an authority on technical terms?
Even if you ask the OWLs themselves they don't claim to be the
creators of language, only it's documentors. When you get to
technical or craft terminology, dictionaries produced by general
lexicographers are often carefully accurate over their source
citations, but vague or downright wrong over meanings.

My original knowledge of this came from my brother in law. He checked his
"Artist Encyclopedia" and learnd this definition. This large dictionary
looking book deals mainly with making your own paints.

In article ,
says...
Need the technical definition be changed to satisfy those that cannot learn
the difference?


No, the technical definition is inadequate and out dated and should be
corrected and updated to keep up with an ever changing real world.

Like I said, nit picking or you aren't capable of understanding the
difference.

Take your pick you are either one the other or..........

MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

However it is still a surface finish made up of an oil, carrier/thinner,
resin.

Hope it helps
--
MikeG

All of this has helped but OP now has a headache. I think I will drive to
Tulsa (90 miles) this weekend and visit the Woodcraft store for some
recommended finishes.
Mike in Arkansas

Leon wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, varnish is "Resinous matter
dissolved in some liquid and used for spreading over a surface in order
to give this a hard, shining, transparent coat, by which it is made more
durable or ornamental".

Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
transparency test. If one wants to be pedantic then 100% solids
transparent urethane would also not be "varnish" because it's not
dissolved
in anything, it's all "resinous matter".


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition



var·nish (vär'nÄ*sh)
n.

1.. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating
binder,
used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film.
2.. The smooth coating or gloss resulting from the application of this
paint.

That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note that
"transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
opaque pigment then it's not varnish.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:24:36 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the
transparency test.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

1.. A paint containing a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder,
used to coat a surface with a hard, glossy, transparent film.

Then I suggest you re-read that more carefully.

It states that varnishes are paints, and that varnishes are
transparent.

It does _not_ state that paints are varnishes.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:24:36 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

It does _not_ state that paints are varnishes.


Point made. I Stand corrected on this point. However, white wash, is not
totally opaque and is considered paint.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
that
"transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
opaque pigment then it's not varnish.


I'll go and agree with you on that point. Although I would think that a
finish could contain some pigment and still be termed a varnish as long as
it is not opaque.

"MikeG" wrote in message
ews.com...

No, the technical definition is inadequate and out dated and should be
corrected and updated to keep up with an ever changing real world.

Well I think if you believe this you should have this corrected.


Like I said, nit picking or you aren't capable of understanding the
difference.

Oh I understand, you simply choose to not believe.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:


That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
that
"transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
opaque pigment then it's not varnish.


I have another reference that states that a varnish need not be transparent,
clear. It can also be translucent, which I would say most varnishes are.

Leon wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
that
"transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
opaque pigment then it's not varnish.


I'll go and agree with you on that point. Although I would think that a
finish could contain some pigment and still be termed a varnish as long as
it is not opaque.

Which is the case for some urethane-based varnishes sold as "spar varnish",
among others.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Leon wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:


That's not exactly in agreement with the Oxford, but it's close. Note
that
"transparent" is one of the defining characteristics. If it contains an
opaque pigment then it's not varnish.


I have another reference that states that a varnish need not be
transparent,
clear. It can also be translucent, which I would say most varnishes are.

Which still does not mean that the polyurethane classifier shoes used in
taconite mining are made of varnish, even though they may be translucent.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:24:36 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

Now what's your source for the claim that paint is varnish? It fails the


Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

FWW online has a nice article on finishes this month:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp

m