In article ,
Woodchuck Bill wrote:

Charles wrote in :

What servers carry it?

Giganews

Google groups

Individual.net

(comp.os.linux.xbox)

Altopia - comp.os.linux.xbox
AstraWeb - not carried
Easynews - not carried
Individual.net - comp.os.linux.xbox 0000000110 0000000001 y
MegaNetNews - not carried
Shared Secrets - not carried
NewsGuy - comp.os.linux.xbox
NewsReader.com - comp.os.linux.xbox 116 2 y
NewsHosting - not carried
Octanews - comp.os.linux.xbox 0000000018 0000000002 y
Shaw.net (Canada) - not carried
Supernews - comp.os.linux.xbox 0000000111 0000000001 y
Uncensored-News - not carried

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:54:58 -0000, Dan wrote:

On Fri 22 Oct 2004 09:51:17a, (Susan Welchel)
wrote in om:

We would like to thank everyone for making this happen.

Just in case anybody hasn't seen it yet:
http://www.softwreck.shop.ms/

couldnt find it through all the popups! hope the new group is more
profetionally mannaged than the website! lol....



skeez

"Greg Millen" skribis:
"Paul Ebermann" wrote [...]

Since one expect to vote NO mainly the people who
think the new group has a negative impact on a given
group (rec.woodworking in this case) and to vote YES
mainly the people who like to read the new group, it
does not wonder, that the last ones mainly don't
participate in rec.woodworking, but the former
ones do.

You haven't allowed for the fact that most 'lurkers' post at least once,
have a bad experience, then return to lurking.

Have you any evidence for your "fact"?

_I_ don't know anything about the lurkers of
the groups I'm reading (and posting to).

One could decide to rest lurking by seeing the
"bad experience" of others.

I found very limited evidence
of this in the 50 I sampled. I found more than 60% in the other group.

Yes - there won't be a independant distibution,
as I sayed above.

Perhaps you are correct, IMHO the numbers don't make sense or present a
reasonable distribution.

As I don't know what a "reasonable distribution" should be,
I can't comment on this.


Note: I don't say there was no ballot-stuffing,
I only say your statistics don't give evidence
for it.


Paul

On Sun 24 Oct 2004 07:12:06a, skeezics wrote in
:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:54:58 -0000, Dan wrote:

Just in case anybody hasn't seen it yet:
http://www.softwreck.shop.ms/

couldnt find it through all the popups! hope the new group is more
profetionally mannaged than the website! lol....


Um. Did I mention I've got the popup blocker on by default?

Sorry about that. I should have noticed the little icon telling me that
Firefox had blocked popups. But I didn't. I'll be more careful next time.

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Paul Kierstead states:

PS: Perhaps you could make a rec.woodworking.conservative and
rec.woodworking.liberal so as to seperate out the two groups who can
never agree on whether a router or a dado blade is the best to cut a
dado.


Oops. I screwed up again. I used a handsaw and chisel for my last dado.


Ah, a Greenie (*). Sorry, you don't matter; you are too small of a
demographic. Now if you were to fully embrace neander ways and use a
plough plane, particularly a very expensive and fancy one, we might let
you in one of the the other groups.

(*) -- I have only the Green party in Canada to go by; here they are
fairly liberal and in most ways extremely sensible and -- for the most
part -- it would not be considered despicable to be mistaken for one. If
it is other wise there in the land where calling someone a liberal is
apparently an insult, I apologize.

Paul Kierstead notes:

Oops. I screwed up again. I used a handsaw and chisel for my last dado.


Ah, a Greenie (*). Sorry, you don't matter; you are too small of a
demographic. Now if you were to fully embrace neander ways and use a
plough plane, particularly a very expensive and fancy one, we might let
you in one of the the other groups.

(*) -- I have only the Green party in Canada to go by; here they are
fairly liberal and in most ways extremely sensible and -- for the most
part -- it would not be considered despicable to be mistaken for one. If
it is other wise there in the land where calling someone a liberal is
apparently an insult, I apologize.

Well, I'm fairly liberal in lots of ways, including the ones neocons consider
insulting. But that's their problem, something a good shrink might help some of
them with, that belief the world should jerk itself into a shape that fits all
their preconceptions. Still, I'm not any kind of full-fledged greenie. It was
just faster to take the saw and chisel instead of adjusting the tablesaw or
finding a router bit to fit the scant 9/16" needed.

Of course, I could use the E.C.Emmerich plow plane I've got. I just didn't
think of that.

Charlie Self
"When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not
hereditary." Thomas Paine

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:32:07 -0400, Paul Kierstead wrote:

(*) -- I have only the Green party in Canada to go by; here they are
fairly liberal and in most ways extremely sensible and -- for the most
part -- it would not be considered despicable to be mistaken for one. If
it is other wise there in the land where calling someone a liberal is
apparently an insult, I apologize.

Well, for myself, I'll be voting straight-ticket Green Party here in the
US. Again. So *I* think you gave Charlie a compliment of the highest order!

http://www.gp.org

--
Joe Wells

Okay, I've tried to read everything about this issue that I can, and I
haven't yet found a post that tells me why this is a Bad Thing.

Everything I know about newsgroups tells me that the most likely scenario
is that the group gets created, enjoys a short honeymoon period, then
traffic dies off to nothing and the moderators forget about it so no posts
ever make it through. Every now and then someone posts a "Hey, what's this
woodworking.all-ages group? How come it's dead?" to this group, which
generates another "Oh, that's Vito and Susan. They're dumb." thread.

What's so bad about that?

Dan wrote in
:

Everything I know about newsgroups tells me that the most likely
scenario is that the group gets created, enjoys a short honeymoon
period, then traffic dies off to nothing and the moderators forget
about it so no posts ever make it through.

The group will be unmoderated.

--
Bill

Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com wrote in
:

They actually swayed the result for the creation of
comp.os.linux.xbox, which passed because of the Stromboli
votes. The group now exists, but it is dead as a teak board.

What servers carry it?

The two largest ISPs (uni-berlin.de and supernews) carry it,

Yes, I know. I have posted to it a few times, and I didn't get very helpful
answers, other than a pointer to a web page.

and it has five to ten posts per day about Linux on Xbox.
I call that a success.

Then the Satanism group must be a hit, as it has even more posts on average
per day of existence. If the "soft wreck" averages 5-10 woodworking posts a
day, compared to 300+ per day like rec.woodworking, you will consider that
a success too?

--
Bill

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:45:36 +0000, Woodchuck Bill wrote:

Then the Satanism group must be a hit, as it has even more posts on
average per day of existence. If the "soft wreck" averages 5-10
woodworking posts a day, compared to 300+ per day like rec.woodworking,
you will consider that a success too?

Even if the soft wreck gets 20 on-topic, non-crossposted messages per day,
they will likely be swamped by the trolls, spammers, and other assorted
kooks. I think the signal to noise in this group will be quite, quite bad.

--
Joe Wells

(Ken Arromdee) wrote in
:

Dave: Chill for a while. Even a few days would be long enough.

It was my impression that challenges to vote results had to be made
within a certain time period. In other words, Usenet policy creates
the emergency.

Todd said that he may be extending the 5-day discussion period..though he
didn't say it was definite, and he didn't specify how long it would be
extended for, if it is extended.

I strongly suggest that opponents of this RESULT tone down the rhetoric a
few notches if they seriously want to influence a possible reversal. Stop
attacking the proponents & the NAN team, and start digging for some serious
evidence of voter fraud to account for about 100 specific votes. They
reversed one result recently. Calm down & focus, instead of "lock and
load", and you might have a shot.

--
Bill

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:17:35 +0000, Woodchuck Bill wrote:

(Ken Arromdee) wrote in
:

Dave: Chill for a while. Even a few days would be long enough.

It was my impression that challenges to vote results had to be made
within a certain time period. In other words, Usenet policy creates the
emergency.

Todd said that he may be extending the 5-day discussion period..though he
didn't say it was definite, and he didn't specify how long it would be
extended for, if it is extended.

I strongly suggest that opponents of this RESULT tone down the rhetoric a
few notches if they seriously want to influence a possible reversal. Stop
attacking the proponents & the NAN team, and start digging for some
serious evidence of voter fraud to account for about 100 specific votes.
They reversed one result recently. Calm down & focus, instead of "lock and
load", and you might have a shot.

Except that we still don't know *what* evidence would be accepted.

--
Joe Wells

Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
Mike M mikem14.mindspring.com wrote:


Forgive me if I get this wrong as I'm a lurker. They have created a
new group in the hope that they won't have to decide what threads to
read and not read. This group shouldn't even worry about it. You
have the experience, knowledge and contacts. I will wade thru a lot
of bandwidth if good information is there.


Hey Mike.

They're deluding themselves as well as insulting fine participants here.
An unmoderated group has no chance in hell of maintaining any level of
sanitized content. When the alt.troll groups hit them they'll be pretty
much sunk - the reason the wreck doesn't dry up and blow away when it's
targeted is that it's so heavily used and supported by regulars that it
just keeps plodding along through the muck and comes out the other side.

Don't be a stranger, Mike. Jump in, experience the melee, see where the
wreckians take you and enjoy the ride.

You meant a Moderated group dint ya?

Philski

In article , Woodchuck Bill
wrote:

start digging for some serious
evidence of voter fraud to account for about 100 specific votes. They
reversed one result recently. Calm down & focus, instead of "lock and
load", and you might have a shot.

Where are the headers for the emailed votes?

Never mind, rhetorical question...

Dave Balderstone wrote in
tone.ca:

Where are the headers for the emailed votes?

Have you e-mailed to votetaker to request them?

--
Bill

On 24 Oct 2004 17:45:36 GMT, Woodchuck Bill
wrote:

Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com wrote in
:

They actually swayed the result for the creation of
comp.os.linux.xbox, which passed because of the Stromboli
votes. The group now exists, but it is dead as a teak board.

What servers carry it?

The two largest ISPs (uni-berlin.de and supernews) carry it,

Yes, I know. I have posted to it a few times, and I didn't get very helpful
answers, other than a pointer to a web page.

and it has five to ten posts per day about Linux on Xbox.
I call that a success.

Then the Satanism group must be a hit, as it has even more posts on average
per day of existence. If the "soft wreck" averages 5-10 woodworking posts a
day, compared to 300+ per day like rec.woodworking, you will consider that
a success too?

I would. I just doubt it's going to happen.

In article , philski
wrote:

You meant a Moderated group dint ya?

There's no moderated group... the vote passed on an unmoderated group
that may or may not be created.

If it is created, it will be unmoderated and the trolls will
undoubtedly descend. I hope poor, naive Vito's mental health can handle
the strain.

djb

Joe Wells wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:32:07 -0400, Paul Kierstead wrote:


(*) -- I have only the Green party in Canada to go by; here they are
fairly liberal and in most ways extremely sensible and -- for the most
part -- it would not be considered despicable to be mistaken for one. If
it is other wise there in the land where calling someone a liberal is
apparently an insult, I apologize.


Well, for myself, I'll be voting straight-ticket Green Party here in the
US. Again. So *I* think you gave Charlie a compliment of the highest order!

http://www.gp.org

So...in essence, you're voiting for Bush huh?

Just my .02!

Philski

philski wrote:

Joe Wells wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:32:07 -0400, Paul Kierstead wrote:


(*) -- I have only the Green party in Canada to go by; here they are
fairly liberal and in most ways extremely sensible and -- for the most
part -- it would not be considered despicable to be mistaken for one. If
it is other wise there in the land where calling someone a liberal is
apparently an insult, I apologize.



Well, for myself, I'll be voting straight-ticket Green Party here in the
US. Again. So *I* think you gave Charlie a compliment of the highest
order!

http://www.gp.org

So...in essence, you're voiting for Bush huh?

Just my .02!

Philski
voting even....

Philski (apologizing for my dyslexic fangers)

In article ,
otforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Well, I'm fairly liberal in lots of ways, including the ones neocons consider
insulting. But that's their problem, something a good shrink might help some
of
them with, that belief the world should jerk itself into a shape that fits
all
their preconceptions. Still, I'm not any kind of full-fledged greenie. It was
just faster to take the saw and chisel instead of adjusting the tablesaw or
finding a router bit to fit the scant 9/16" needed.

LOL. Now, to be wildly on-topic, I am curious as to why you used a
handsaw. For many years my dad (mostly a finish carpenter) cut the odd
Dado he did with a circular saw (and occasionally a table saw) and a
chisel. The saws were used in the same manner as a hand saw would be
used for a Dado of course (not using a dado blade). Sometimes he would
give an extra run down the middle if the dado was wide. And he
occasionally did the nibble-away method Norm is fond of. The set-up time
on a table saw is amazing low; blade height, fence, cut, fence. Of
course sometimes it is quite pleasant to use a handsaw, though I suck at
using one an amazing amount (though am getting better!)

PK

Woodchuck Bill wrote:

Dave Balderstone wrote:

Where are the headers for the emailed votes?

Have you e-mailed to votetaker to request them?

I emailed the votetaker and asked for the headers of the vote
that forged my email address. He replied with a form letter.
I asked again and got no reply.

What evidence exists that these are real people?

One Stromboli said they do and that was enough to make their votes
count.

So I can create a thousand sock puppets on a single IP address, and
vote any way I want to?

Yup - the technical phrase for this is "doing a Stromboli" :-)


Jimi

J T wrote:
Apparently you are saying that no one staying with rec.woodworking
has respectible values. I would like to know who appointed you
qualified to make such judgement calls.

Well, it's the free speech thing. She's perfectly allowed,
qualified and entitled to make judgement calls. I (and you)
are similarly allowed to IGNORE THE HELL out of her judgement calls.

Freedom is a fine thing.

BugBear

Dave Balderstone wrote:

In article , Joe Wells
wrote:

A Usenet voting arms race. Do the news.groupies see how ****ed up this is
yet?

I think it's indisputable that many do. The questions now are (IMO):

-- what gets done to fix the problem

-- what's the timeframe to fix it

-- is a suspension of the RFD/CFV process while the fix is being worked
on appropriate

The answer to the last is, not until a specific fix is proposed.

--
This account is subject to a persistent MS Blaster and SWEN attack.
I think I've got the problem resolved, but, if you E-mail me
and it bounces, a second try might work.
However, please reply in newsgroup.

What a load of self-righteous dung. Take yourself, your attitudes and
your postings and leave already. This group is one of the better on
usenet, and whatever motivates your clique of moralistic pantywaist
bedwetters, take that with you to your "new and improved" group and
stop bothering us. The wreck wasn't broke but you tried to fix it,
and used a flawed "voting" to validate your "soft" and "respectable"
alternative. Don't you have some cookies to bake?

Mutt


(Susan Welchel) wrote in message . com...
We would like to thank everyone for making this happen. Now,
woodworkers with respectable values will have an on-topic forum, and
they will not be stuck with the politics, filth, and drivel that are
associated with rec.woodworking. The NAN moderation team will create
the new group, rec.woodworking.all-ages, in about one week. All decent
woodworking folk should request the new group from the administrator
of their NSP.

snip

Vito Kuhn and Susan Welchel

On 25 Oct 2004 06:38:39 -0700, (Mutt) wrote:

The wreck wasn't broke but you tried to fix it,
and used a flawed "voting" to validate your "soft" and "respectable"
alternative.

So why didn't _you_ vote against it?

It's too late to complain about it now, when you did nothing in the
first place.

On 25 Oct 2004 06:38:39 -0700, (Mutt) wrote:

Don't you have some cookies to bake?

Kookie?

Maybe it's da Kookie Monster sending out these fake emails.

I've gotten three so far.

They were boring.



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On 24 Oct, in article

"Woodchuck Bill" wrote:

Charles wrote in :

What servers carry it?

Giganews

Google groups

Individual.net

(comp.os.linux.xbox)

Demon (there, they seem to have had 124 posts: the oldest is dated Wed,
15 Sep 2004 10:59:28 +0100, and the newest 25 Oct 2004 10:35:21 -0700).

--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support."

Andy: Maybe I wasn't clear, I couldn't care less about their new
group, nor about voting for or against it as from my perspective the
wreck ain't broke, and all I want is for them to cut out their
moralistic whinings and insulting superior "Hoorah!!" attitudes and
leave already.

Mutt

Andy Dingley wrote in message . ..
On 25 Oct 2004 06:38:39 -0700, (Mutt) wrote:

The wreck wasn't broke but you tried to fix it,
and used a flawed "voting" to validate your "soft" and "respectable"
alternative.

So why didn't _you_ vote against it?

It's too late to complain about it now, when you did nothing in the
first place.

(Mutt) wrote in
om:

Andy: Maybe I wasn't clear, I couldn't care less about their new
group, nor about voting for or against it as from my perspective the
wreck ain't broke, and all I want is for them to cut out their
moralistic whinings and insulting superior "Hoorah!!" attitudes and
leave already.


Her gloat may have been premature. The RESULT is under review, and the
group passage may be voided. We will know by Nov 12, which also happens to
be the last day of voting for the talk.kookology proposal.

--
Bill

On 25 Oct 2004 01:25:15 GMT, Bruce Barnett
wrote:

Joe Wells writes:

Except that we still don't know *what* evidence would be accepted.

There is evidence that can suggest fraud occurred.
I'd like to see the mail headers from the Stromboli votes.

Might not do you any good if they were bounced out from shell
accounts.

igor did say:

Mangler, I like your comments (and your nom de bois). Is it
possible/probable that (1) with the new practice of some web-based forums
"appropriating" NG content, (2) the OP's mention of starting some "for
sale" and commercial service NGs, and (3) the ability of the OPs to set up
a forum that "appropriates" the content of this new NG, that: This is all
the start of a move to their establishing a website with ads, etc -- i.e.,
a commercial venture?

All just idle BS, of course. Where's my beer? Oh, beer wench? Where the
&%$# is that unmoderated she-devil? -- Igor

It's not that I'm opposed to a rec.woodworking.forsale type group.
Actually I think that would be good. I'm just opposed to the apparent
motives of the OP. And certainly put off by the holier than thou attitude.

As for the beer wench... She's with me at the beach this week. Beer's
cold, fish are biting, my new Fine Woodworking videos just came in the
mail. Life is good.

In news.groups Greg Millen wrote:

You haven't allowed for the fact that most 'lurkers' post at least once,
have a bad experience, then return to lurking.

No, a good number of lurkers never post. You'll never find any
records of them, unless they decide to participate in something
like a Big-8 vote. I wouldn't be surprised if someone managed
to do a local study and found a 10 to 1 lurkeroster ratio, and
if the turnover is anywhere near the 50% I've seen in some places,
then there's a good number of folks that are new enough to not
want to post yet, but old enough to know the group enough to
vote. That means it is quite possible that that "most lurkers"
have never posted, and we would never know about them except the
one instance of an email and ID that showed up in a RESULT.

ru

--
My standard proposals rant:
Quality, usefulness, merit, or non-newsgroups popularity of a topic
is more or less irrelevant in creating a new Big-8 newsgroup.
Usenet popularity is the primary consideration.

In news.groups Woodchuck Bill wrote:
Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com wrote in
:


and it has five to ten posts per day about Linux on Xbox.
I call that a success.

Then the Satanism group must be a hit, as it has even more posts on average
per day of existence. If the "soft wreck" averages 5-10 woodworking posts a
day, compared to 300+ per day like rec.woodworking, you will consider that
a success too?

There tends to be different standards for tech and sci groups. I'd say
the Xbox group is doing OK, but I wouldn't say it was a hit. On the
other hand, my impression is that 10/day for a tech group is considered
quite acceptable. For comparison, a rec.* group that was doing OK, to
me, would be running at 20-30/day, and lively at 50/day.

ru

--
My standard proposals rant:
Quality, usefulness, merit, or non-newsgroups popularity of a topic
is more or less irrelevant in creating a new Big-8 newsgroup.
Usenet popularity is the primary consideration.

wrote:

In news.groups Greg Millen wrote:

You haven't allowed for the fact that most 'lurkers' post at
least once, have a bad experience, then return to lurking.

No, a good number of lurkers never post. You'll never find
any records of them, unless they decide to participate in
something like a Big-8 vote. I wouldn't be surprised if
someone managed to do a local study and found a 10 to 1
lurkeroster ratio, and if the turnover is anywhere near the
50% I've seen in some places, then there's a good number of
folks that are new enough to not want to post yet, but old
enough to know the group enough to vote. That means it is
quite possible that that "most lurkers" have never posted, and
we would never know about them except the one instance of an
email and ID that showed up in a RESULT.

Excellent observation - and not one that I'd have accepted
without some convincing evidence...

I post to three newsgroups: the wreck (most frequent), ABPW
(occasionally), and alt.solar.thermal (perhaps twice or three
times a month) but my few woodworking web pages have produced (as
of 04:40 today) 164,679 hits from 16075 unique visitors in 2816
domains from 88 countries since the beginning of this year.

The interesting thing to me is that I haven't promoted the web
site other than to occasionally provide a woodworking link on the
two woodworking groups - and my woodworking pages present fairly
mundane stuff.

I'm obliged to conclude that the wreck's lurkeroster ratio is a
great deal higher than 10:1.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

Morris Dovey wrote in
:

I'm obliged to conclude that the wreck's lurkeroster ratio is a
great deal higher than 10:1.

I've been a power lurker and infrequent poster to rec.woodworking for
almost four years now. I'll vouch for that.

--
Bill

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:58:56 -0500, Morris Dovey wrote:

The interesting thing to me is that I haven't promoted the web site other
than to occasionally provide a woodworking link on the two woodworking
groups - and my woodworking pages present fairly mundane stuff.

I'm obliged to conclude that the wreck's lurkeroster ratio is a great
deal higher than 10:1.

Unless you've specified no robots in your robots.txt file, many search
engines will be scanning your entire site, giving you a distorted view if
you don't look at the sources of hits.

-Doug

--
"It has been a source of great pain to me to have met with so many among
[my] opponents who had not the liberality to distinguish between
political and social opposition; who transferred at once to the person,
the hatred they bore to his political opinions." --Thomas Jefferson

Doug Winterburn wrote:

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:58:56 -0500, Morris Dovey wrote:

The interesting thing to me is that I haven't promoted the web site other
than to occasionally provide a woodworking link on the two woodworking
groups - and my woodworking pages present fairly mundane stuff.

I'm obliged to conclude that the wreck's lurkeroster ratio is a great
deal higher than 10:1.

Unless you've specified no robots in your robots.txt file, many search
engines will be scanning your entire site, giving you a distorted view if
you don't look at the sources of hits.

Agreed. If it's safe to make the assumption that the robots begin
with the root directory; and that /only/ robots (unlikely) pull
up the index.html page, then we can subtract 2084 "tours" of the
site and subtract some smaller number of unique visitors.

Still, it's a lot more visitors than I ever expected. Sure hope
they're all finding whatever it was they wanted...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

It certainly looks like it. More fool The Powers That Be to be so
easily used.
I'm not sure it matters though. This group has withstood every type of
wringing out in the many years it's been around. It will survive this
too. There have been such splits in Usenet history. You see the
resulting empty newsgroups all over the place. It's just a waste of
bandwidth. It's not fatal to the people who hang out here.



GregP wrote in message . ..

Maybe the group name should be changed to
rec.stromboli.all.ages