Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining. Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based? Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

Peace.

Jim

On 19 Oct 2004 08:30:40 -0700, Jim Brown wrote:
Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining.

Good.

Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based?

I've tried water-based poly now several times, from several different
manufacturers, and have been very unhappy with all of them. Doesn't
have a good gloss, it's not "flat", it's just muddy. Also, it's soft.
I put some on the wood around my shower enclosure, and it needed re-doing
in 3 years; it basically dissolved, didn't peel or anything, just _went away_.

Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

As much as Poly is a less-than-perfect finish for many applications, a
kitchen countertop is a very demanding location and may be appropriate for
it. How wide are your strips going to be, by the way? Anything less than
2 inches or so may look _very_ busy, and all you'll see is pattern rather
than the grain of the woods.

Also, I wonder if Poly has UV inhibitors which will prevent the cherry from
darkening normally? If so, you might want to give it some quality time in
the sunlight or other UV-source before putting the finish on. I'm sure
someone here can talk to that part of the issue.

How are you planning to join the strips together? Glue/biscits maybe?

Dave Hinz


Peace.

Jim

What about and oil-based poly? Or is spar varnish appropriate for this,
like they use on boats?

--
-Jim
©¿©¬

If you want to reply by email its -- ryan at jimryan dot com
Please use BCC and lets all avoid spam
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On 19 Oct 2004 08:30:40 -0700, Jim Brown wrote:
Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining.

Good.

Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based?

I've tried water-based poly now several times, from several different
manufacturers, and have been very unhappy with all of them. Doesn't
have a good gloss, it's not "flat", it's just muddy. Also, it's soft.
I put some on the wood around my shower enclosure, and it needed re-doing
in 3 years; it basically dissolved, didn't peel or anything, just _went
away_.

Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

As much as Poly is a less-than-perfect finish for many applications, a
kitchen countertop is a very demanding location and may be appropriate for
it. How wide are your strips going to be, by the way? Anything less than
2 inches or so may look _very_ busy, and all you'll see is pattern rather
than the grain of the woods.

Also, I wonder if Poly has UV inhibitors which will prevent the cherry
from
darkening normally? If so, you might want to give it some quality time in
the sunlight or other UV-source before putting the finish on. I'm sure
someone here can talk to that part of the issue.

How are you planning to join the strips together? Glue/biscits maybe?

Dave Hinz


Peace.

Jim

"Jim Brown" wrote in message
om...
Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining. Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based? Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

Peace.

Jim

Your do realize walnut and cherry being relative soft woods compared to the
usual wood used for counter tops will be very susceptible to dints and
dings? I should look great but I have to wonder how long.

"jtpr" wrote in message
...
What about and oil-based poly? Or is spar varnish appropriate for this,
like they use on boats?


I am thinking a spar varnish will NOT be good in this case. Spar varnishes
tend to remain flexible.

Jim Brown wrote:

Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining. Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based? Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

Peace.

Jim

It's amazing how much water accumulates around a kitchen sink. I put in
a white oak butcher block style counter top in my previous house. That
was a once in a lifetime experience. Get the hardest, nastiest,
waterproof stuff that you can find to coat it with and renew it often.
I used oil based poly and it took a couple months for dark spots to
start showing. Sand, sand, poly, poly. Then sand, sand, poly poly in a
few more months. Perhaps I should have tried a marine type varnish or
asphalt. In short, it was a lot of work and it didn't look all that
great. Perhaps you and SWMBO are better at keeping wet stuff off the
counter than we were, but then that's what counters are for.

This time I went with the quartz based stuff (Silestone, Caesarstone,
etc.). Impervious to anything after almost two years. Yea, stamp,
whistle and other expressions of childish glee.

mahalo,
jo4hn

jo4hn wrote:


It's amazing how much water accumulates around a kitchen sink. I put in
a white oak butcher block style counter top in my previous house. That
was a once in a lifetime experience. Get the hardest, nastiest,
waterproof stuff that you can find to coat it with and renew it often. I
used oil based poly and it took a couple months for dark spots to start
showing. Sand, sand, poly, poly. Then sand, sand, poly poly in a few
more months. Perhaps I should have tried a marine type varnish or
asphalt. In short, it was a lot of work and it didn't look all that
great. Perhaps you and SWMBO are better at keeping wet stuff off the
counter than we were, but then that's what counters are for.

This time I went with the quartz based stuff (Silestone, Caesarstone,
etc.). Impervious to anything after almost two years. Yea, stamp,
whistle and other expressions of childish glee.

mahalo,
jo4hn

I would suggest a number of coats of very thin marine epoxy, such as
those made by West, Raka...Make sure to get one that cures very slowly.

You might consider making the counter by the sink of a different
material. You could use granite, marble... Give at least 1 foof space
around the sink. Make it like a granite insert in the wood top. You
could then use wood for the rest of the counter. I agree with another
poster, though. You should probably use harder/tougher wood.

-Peter

In article ,
says...

"jtpr" wrote in message
...
What about and oil-based poly? Or is spar varnish appropriate for this,
like they use on boats?


I am thinking a spar varnish will NOT be good in this case. Spar varnishes
tend to remain flexible.





I tend towards agreeing there but it is a double edged sword. softer may
dent more easily but the more brittle non spar varnish is more likely to
develop micro cracks and surface scratches with use and that would
shorten it's useful life.

Then again I think any natural wood and common finishes on working
counter tops is asking for trouble in short order. If I were so inclined
towards that combination it would probably entail the use of one of
those two part epoxy finishes.

--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

(Jim Brown) wrote in
om:

Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining. Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based? Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

Peace.

Jim

If this is a counter that will get a lot of abuse then your best bet is
probably something like walnut oil. If it's just going to get a moderate
amount of abuse then maybe a short oil varnish like Behlan's Rock Hard
tabletop varnish will be okay. The problem with poly, conversion varnish,
etc, is that they are not repairable. So if it gets scratched you're
pretty much hosed. If you look at butcher block counters (which is what
you're making here), they usually don't have a surface finish for this
reason.
Matt

MikeG writes:


[...]

Then again I think any natural wood and common finishes on working
counter tops is asking for trouble in short order. If I were so inclined
towards that combination it would probably entail the use of one of
those two part epoxy finishes.

Just one data point he In my mothers kitchen there is a simple fir
board below the window sill, extending the kitchen sink. This board is
used as an eating place by the cat (well, about 5 different cats over
the time...), as talon-sharpening device by some of the cats, so it
gets a lot of abuse. It was waxed with beeswax *once* when installed
(10years ago), and shows some wear, but it is still perfectly
serviceable and has a very nice look and is absolutely smooth to the
touch. So don't overestimate both load and importance of the finish
on real wood.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

Dave Hinz wrote in message ...
On 19 Oct 2004 08:30:40 -0700, Jim Brown wrote:
Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining.

Good.

Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based?

I've tried water-based poly now several times, from several different
manufacturers, and have been very unhappy with all of them. Doesn't
have a good gloss, it's not "flat", it's just muddy. Also, it's soft.
I put some on the wood around my shower enclosure, and it needed re-doing
in 3 years; it basically dissolved, didn't peel or anything, just _went away_.

Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

As much as Poly is a less-than-perfect finish for many applications, a
kitchen countertop is a very demanding location and may be appropriate for
it. How wide are your strips going to be, by the way? Anything less than
2 inches or so may look _very_ busy, and all you'll see is pattern rather
than the grain of the woods.

I am planning to use ~1.75" x 1.75" strips. Dark - light strips
should make an interesting look.


Also, I wonder if Poly has UV inhibitors which will prevent the cherry from
darkening normally? If so, you might want to give it some quality time in
the sunlight or other UV-source before putting the finish on. I'm sure
someone here can talk to that part of the issue.

I really like the darkened cherry color, so, planning to get a UV
light and darken the cherry for a while.

How are you planning to join the strips together? Glue/biscits maybe?

Just gluing. As an exercise, I built myself a similar top for a
workbench (7' x 24.4" x 1.875"). Titebond III worked very good. I
thought it would be difficult to bond the strips all at once, so I
worked with 3 separate pieces and then glued them together. One thing
I learned was, it was not enough to clamp the piecese only sideways.
To create a flat surface you need to clamp them from top and bottom
surfaces as well. Used a 4" strips for both sides and then removed it
before glue was set. Otherwise they shift around and you endup with a
jagged surface. I planed the pieces but hate wasting wood.

Dave Hinz


Peace.

Jim

"Leon" wrote in message om...
"Jim Brown" wrote in message
om...
Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining. Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based? Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

Peace.

Jim

Your do realize walnut and cherry being relative soft woods compared to the
usual wood used for counter tops will be very susceptible to dints and
dings? I should look great but I have to wonder how long.

This is a very good point and I thought about this for a while and
decided to go with it. I am hoping to get an uncommon look. Call me
a pervert if you will but I like stuff showing their age. Wife says
she won't be cutting on it and wont't place hot pots and pans on it.
We will see.

MattH wrote in message news:1098211177.0i7UDaErb68Dbg7x09f3WQ@1usenet.. .
(Jim Brown) wrote in
om:

Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining. Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based? Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

Peace.

Jim

If this is a counter that will get a lot of abuse then your best bet is
probably something like walnut oil.

This is interesting. Would applying just oil protect the wood from
water?
My primary concern is not dents and scratches but water damage. If
this works, this may be the perfect solution for me. Any other
comments on this?

If it's just going to get a moderate
amount of abuse then maybe a short oil varnish like Behlan's Rock Hard
tabletop varnish will be okay. The problem with poly, conversion varnish,
etc, is that they are not repairable. So if it gets scratched you're
pretty much hosed. If you look at butcher block counters (which is what
you're making here), they usually don't have a surface finish for this
reason.
Matt

On 20 Oct 2004 05:22:46 -0700, Jim Brown wrote:
MattH wrote in message news:1098211177.0i7UDaErb68Dbg7x09f3WQ@1usenet.. .

If this is a counter that will get a lot of abuse then your best bet is
probably something like walnut oil.

This is interesting. Would applying just oil protect the wood from
water?
My primary concern is not dents and scratches but water damage. If
this works, this may be the perfect solution for me. Any other
comments on this?

Yeah, test it with your glue. Also, maybe you might want to consider
biscuits rather than just glue joints? Solves three things for you:
1. Better strength to the joint
2. Controls the vertical movement you're noting in your glue-ups, and
3. Lets you buy a new tool.

#3 is, of course, the most important benefit.

Dave Hinz

"Jim Brown" wrote in message
om...

Your do realize walnut and cherry being relative soft woods compared to
the
usual wood used for counter tops will be very susceptible to dints and
dings? I should look great but I have to wonder how long.

This is a very good point and I thought about this for a while and
decided to go with it. I am hoping to get an uncommon look. Call me
a pervert if you will but I like stuff showing their age. Wife says
she won't be cutting on it and wont't place hot pots and pans on it.
We will see.

As long as you know all the possible draw backs and can live with them then
go for it. We of course will need pictures posted. ;~)

Very interesting idea. I've done some similar things, and can offer
some experience:

1. Cherry gets darker over time, walnut gets lighter. The time may
come when the contrast is greatly subdued.

2. Providing you keep standing water wiped up, the biggest risk of
damage from water is in endgrain areas that you can't get to, like the
perimeter of the sink cutout, or the faucet cutouts (depending on
whether the sink mounts from above or below). Caulks will fail.

3. Even normal use in a kitchen is pretty tough service for any
surface coating, and unfortunately, the most durable are probably the
least asthetically appealing (IMO, at least). I'd consider a
non-toxic oil treatment--not a finish, really--like regular
applications of mineral oil. This is traditional on maple or similar
countertops. This has the advantage of being more repairable.


(Jim Brown) wrote in message . com...
Gentlemen and you know who you are,

I am building a countertop with alternating cherry and walnut strips
glued together. Due to the sink in the middle there will be some
water splashing around. I like the natural look of walnut and cherry
so no staining. Planning to use many coats of polyurethane for both
top and bottom surfaces. Water based or oil based? Anything better?
Since I have little experience with wood finishing, please do not skip
any steps you deem as obvious.

Peace.

Jim

(ed_h) wrote in message . com...
Very interesting idea. I've done some similar things, and can offer
some experience:

1. Cherry gets darker over time, walnut gets lighter. The time may
come when the contrast is greatly subdued.

2. Providing you keep standing water wiped up, the biggest risk of
damage from water is in endgrain areas that you can't get to, like the
perimeter of the sink cutout, or the faucet cutouts (depending on
whether the sink mounts from above or below). Caulks will fail.

3. Even normal use in a kitchen is pretty tough service for any
surface coating, and unfortunately, the most durable are probably the
least asthetically appealing (IMO, at least). I'd consider a
non-toxic oil treatment--not a finish, really--like regular
applications of mineral oil. This is traditional on maple or similar
countertops. This has the advantage of being more repairable.

I recently purchased the "Understanding Wood Finishing" (1994) by Bob
Flexner and read parts of it. I think this is a very good book and he
knows what he is talking about. This is what he says about water
protection (From Page 202):
"Resistance to water and water vapor depends as much on the thickness
of the finish as it does on the type of finish. The three type of
varnish (alkyd, phenolic and polyurethane), which are nearly
impermeable to water and water vapor when built up to a thick film,
lose almost all of their resistance when applied thin in the form of a
wiping varnish. ... It follows that oil-containing finishes offer very
little protection against water and water vapor, because they are also
very thin.
Among the film finishes, the best water and water vapor protection
is provided by varnish and conversion finishes. ..."

On page 208 he rates (0 being the worst and 5 being the best) oil
containing finishes for water resistance as:

Wax: 0 to 2
Oil-Containing finishes: 0 to 2
Shellac: 2
Varnish Polyurethane: 5
Conversion Finishes: 5

What is best for water protection is listed as worst for repair and
appearence like you are saying.

I am still not sure which way I should go!

I may end up applying conversion varnish underneath the block and oil
on top like you and Matt suggested.

Jim

Countertop is almost finished now. I posted a picture in abpw. Ended up
using Murdoch's hard sealer and Murdoch's Table Top (polymerized tung-oil)
by Sutherland Wells.

* If you are planning to buy a jointer, this would be a good project to
justify it. I could use one a lot. I was able to do this with a table saw
and planer.
* Make sure to use waterproof glue. I used Titebond III.
* You need more clamps then you have.
* Applying varnish with a brush without making bubbles is difficult. Rub
it instead.
* SWMBO turned out to be allergic to walnut dust. I got some irritation in
my eyes. I don't know how you can check before you select the wood type to
make sure that you are OK.
* Cherry is more brittle than walnut and can burn easily.
* Do not try to clamp and glue more then 4 or 5 strips at once. In this
case each strip was about 1.65" wide. If you have different width this
number would be different.
* I did not need to use any biscuits or splines. Just gluing the strips
together worked well.
* I used Murdoch's hard sealer and Murdoch's Table Top (polymerized
tung-oil) by Sutherland Wells. Expensive but repairable. We will see how
durable it is.

On 20 Oct 2004 15:03:31 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On 20 Oct 2004 05:22:46 -0700, Jim Brown wrote:
MattH wrote in message news:1098211177.0i7UDaErb68Dbg7x09f3WQ@1usenet.. .

If this is a counter that will get a lot of abuse then your best bet is
probably something like walnut oil.

This is interesting. Would applying just oil protect the wood from
water?
My primary concern is not dents and scratches but water damage. If
this works, this may be the perfect solution for me. Any other
comments on this?

Yeah, test it with your glue. Also, maybe you might want to consider
biscuits rather than just glue joints? Solves three things for you:
1. Better strength to the joint

Not really. The glue bond is stronger than the wood. Had a
discussion on this very subject w/a architectural woodworker
extraordinaire a while back and we did a test - broke a glued up board
and it didn't fail at the glue joint (the wood was oak).

2. Controls the vertical movement you're noting in your glue-ups, and
3. Lets you buy a new tool.

Now these two, yeah, ok. :-)

Renata

#3 is, of course, the most important benefit.

Dave Hinz

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 08:02:31 -0500, Renata
wrote:


2. Controls the vertical movement you're noting in your glue-ups, and

I've started to really like the method of cutting grooves with a slot
cutter and using splines. The splines can be quickly made to whatever
thickness is needed from scrap, with the planer. If I use a 5/32"
cutter, I can also use store bought biscuits.

This method is extremely fast because marking out and setup are much
easier.

Barry