On 6/6/2017 11:17 PM, wrote:
I can't imagine that being a satisfactory long term solution to finishing. No abrasion resistance, no UV (or even light) resistance, no idea of what the long term effects of full exposure to the elements will do the finish. Open to the air instead of hidden in a joint, will it get hard, then brittle? Will it yellow or muddy?

If I was going to do that I would wipe some lacquer from a dauber or use a polyurethane conversion product.

I used super glue as a pen finish for a while, but found it unsatisfactory. Plenty of other home brews out there that worked better.

Glue is designed to glue, finish to finish. Switching them around never
sounded good to me. If it was a good idea, glue makers or finish makers
would perfect it and sell it as a finish with known results. They
probably already have.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 6/7/2017 9:11 AM, Jack wrote:
On 6/6/2017 11:17 PM, wrote:
I can't imagine that being a satisfactory long term solution to
finishing. No abrasion resistance, no UV (or even light) resistance,
no idea of what the long term effects of full exposure to the elements
will do the finish. Open to the air instead of hidden in a joint,
will it get hard, then brittle? Will it yellow or muddy?

If I was going to do that I would wipe some lacquer from a dauber or
use a polyurethane conversion product.

I used super glue as a pen finish for a while, but found it
unsatisfactory. Plenty of other home brews out there that worked better.

Glue is designed to glue, finish to finish. Switching them around never
sounded good to me. If it was a good idea, glue makers or finish makers
would perfect it and sell it as a finish with known results. They
probably already have.



I think it all has to do with potential sales. 3M makes or used to make
a product commonly referred to as Old Yeller. It was a weatherstrip
adhesive but used more often as a gasket sealant on engines. 3M made a
gasket adhesive but mechanics used the less expensive Old Yeller.


Another good example, TopKote. Originally manufactured by Empire and
sold as a metal surface lubricant. Bostitch bought the product and sold
it for many years with the same name but it was intended to be used as a
rust preventative. The original was a great rust preventative too.

Jack wrote in news

Glue is designed to glue, finish to finish. Switching them around
never sounded good to me. If it was a good idea, glue makers or finish
makers would perfect it and sell it as a finish with known results.
They probably already have.


At the same time, there are products out there that work well completely
outside of the intended use. Sparkfun Electronics has a post about a $30
electric skillet they use for prototyping SMD PC boards. I've tried the
method--heat gun on the back of the board and it works, but I have yet to
try the electric skillet.

Can't imagine the manufacturer even acknowledging that possibility exists.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On 07 Jun 2017 21:20:03 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Jack wrote in news

Glue is designed to glue, finish to finish. Switching them around
never sounded good to me. If it was a good idea, glue makers or finish
makers would perfect it and sell it as a finish with known results.
They probably already have.


At the same time, there are products out there that work well completely
outside of the intended use. Sparkfun Electronics has a post about a $30
electric skillet they use for prototyping SMD PC boards. I've tried the
method--heat gun on the back of the board and it works, but I have yet to
try the electric skillet.

Don't try mounting SMD LEDs that way or you'll turn them into
Dark-Emitting Axial Diodes. Inductors are a problem, too.

Can't imagine the manufacturer even acknowledging that possibility exists.

In today's litigious society and with CA Prop whatever, I suspect
you're right.

On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:20:46 -0400, wrote:

On 07 Jun 2017 21:20:03 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Jack wrote in news

Glue is designed to glue, finish to finish. Switching them around
never sounded good to me. If it was a good idea, glue makers or finish
makers would perfect it and sell it as a finish with known results.
They probably already have.


At the same time, there are products out there that work well completely
outside of the intended use. Sparkfun Electronics has a post about a $30
electric skillet they use for prototyping SMD PC boards. I've tried the
method--heat gun on the back of the board and it works, but I have yet to
try the electric skillet.

Don't try mounting SMD LEDs that way or you'll turn them into
Dark-Emitting Axial Diodes. Inductors are a problem, too.

Can't imagine the manufacturer even acknowledging that possibility exists.

In today's litigious society and with CA Prop whatever, I suspect
you're right.

Back in the day when I prototyped pc boards I had a hot plate, with a
good temp control setup, preheating the board is critical to dry out
the flux in the solder paste. Would then use a hot air unit to melt
the solder, it is impossible to do this on a whole board with out the
preheat to stick things down.

An electric skillet would be good to preheat, but using it to melt the
solder paste would be a waste of components and likely the pc board.

The leads would tend to delaminate caused by the epoxy sticking them
down would fail.

On 6/7/2017 10:24 AM, Leon wrote:
On 6/7/2017 9:11 AM, Jack wrote:
On 6/6/2017 11:17 PM, wrote:
I can't imagine that being a satisfactory long term solution to
finishing. No abrasion resistance, no UV (or even light) resistance,
no idea of what the long term effects of full exposure to the
elements will do the finish. Open to the air instead of hidden in a
joint, will it get hard, then brittle? Will it yellow or muddy?

If I was going to do that I would wipe some lacquer from a dauber or
use a polyurethane conversion product.

I used super glue as a pen finish for a while, but found it
unsatisfactory. Plenty of other home brews out there that worked
better.

Glue is designed to glue, finish to finish. Switching them around
never sounded good to me. If it was a good idea, glue makers or finish
makers would perfect it and sell it as a finish with known results.
They probably already have.


I think it all has to do with potential sales. 3M makes or used to make
a product commonly referred to as Old Yeller. It was a weatherstrip
adhesive but used more often as a gasket sealant on engines. 3M made a
gasket adhesive but mechanics used the less expensive Old Yeller.

Never saw anyone use old yeller, everyone I knew used Permatex, a
product designed for the purpose. That was 50 years ago, and I don't
think anything has changed.

Another good example, TopKote. Originally manufactured by Empire and
sold as a metal surface lubricant. Bostitch bought the product and sold
it for many years with the same name but it was intended to be used as a
rust preventative. The original was a great rust preventative too.

I don't know about Empire, but also 40 years ago I used 3M dry lubricant
before Bostik TopCote existed. It worked exactly as TopCote does today,
and in fact, the cans look almost identical. I suspect 3-M sold the
product or patent to whomever makes Topcote now, but it's just a guess.

http://jbstein.com/Flick/Lube1.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Lube2.jpg

Point is, the product was designed as a lubricant and moisture barrier
for machine parts, and it works exactly as designed, and required by
woodworkers on iron table tops. Homemade remedies are not even close to
as good, just as I suspect glue vs finish would fare.


--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 6/9/2017 9:01 AM, Jack wrote:
On 6/7/2017 10:24 AM, Leon wrote:
On 6/7/2017 9:11 AM, Jack wrote:
On 6/6/2017 11:17 PM, wrote:
I can't imagine that being a satisfactory long term solution to
finishing. No abrasion resistance, no UV (or even light) resistance,
no idea of what the long term effects of full exposure to the
elements will do the finish. Open to the air instead of hidden in a
joint, will it get hard, then brittle? Will it yellow or muddy?

If I was going to do that I would wipe some lacquer from a dauber or
use a polyurethane conversion product.

I used super glue as a pen finish for a while, but found it
unsatisfactory. Plenty of other home brews out there that worked
better.

Glue is designed to glue, finish to finish. Switching them around
never sounded good to me. If it was a good idea, glue makers or finish
makers would perfect it and sell it as a finish with known results.
They probably already have.


I think it all has to do with potential sales. 3M makes or used to make
a product commonly referred to as Old Yeller. It was a weatherstrip
adhesive but used more often as a gasket sealant on engines. 3M made a
gasket adhesive but mechanics used the less expensive Old Yeller.

Never saw anyone use old yeller, everyone I knew used Permatex, a
product designed for the purpose. That was 50 years ago, and I don't
think anything has changed.

different preferences for different locations. I bought old yeller
about 3 cases at a time.




Another good example, TopKote. Originally manufactured by Empire and
sold as a metal surface lubricant. Bostitch bought the product and sold
it for many years with the same name but it was intended to be used as a
rust preventative. The original was a great rust preventative too.

I don't know about Empire, but also 40 years ago I used 3M dry lubricant
before Bostik TopCote existed. It worked exactly as TopCote does today,
and in fact, the cans look almost identical. I suspect 3-M sold the
product or patent to whomever makes Topcote now, but it's just a guess.

It was Empire that had TopCote before, I began using it around 1989. It
was in a pump bottle vs. aerosol. TopCote was bought by Bostik and
recently renamed the product as GlideCote



http://jbstein.com/Flick/Lube1.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Lube2.jpg


Not exactly the same. Have you used the 3M for your metal wood working
surfaces? TopCote specifically says that it will not be a problem for
finishes.

This is one of Empires most recent products.

https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Manufa.../dp/B0000EI96N



Point is, the product was designed as a lubricant and moisture barrier
for machine parts, and it works exactly as designed, and required by
woodworkers on iron table tops. Homemade remedies are not even close to
as good, just as I suspect glue vs finish would fare.



Agreed, the home remedies do not hold up as well as the products
specifically made to prevent rust. Granted home remedies probably work
for some people but not all.

wrote in
:

On 07 Jun 2017 21:20:03 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

At the same time, there are products out there that work well
completely outside of the intended use. Sparkfun Electronics has a
post about a $30 electric skillet they use for prototyping SMD PC
boards. I've tried the method--heat gun on the back of the board and
it works, but I have yet to try the electric skillet.

Don't try mounting SMD LEDs that way or you'll turn them into
Dark-Emitting Axial Diodes. Inductors are a problem, too.

Well, I just tried it. Yes, I know--but sometimes you gotta pee on the
electric fence for yourself. No LED worked at all. I didn't bother
metering the resistors, I probably should have.

I'll cut another board and give things a try again. It sounds like you
and Markem have some experience, any suggestions? Will drying the LEDs
somehow help?

FWIW, I'm cutting the traces with a CNC mill, so my traces are a good
..030" taller than the rest of the board.

*snip*

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On 11 Jun 2017 17:54:14 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

wrote in
:

On 07 Jun 2017 21:20:03 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

At the same time, there are products out there that work well
completely outside of the intended use. Sparkfun Electronics has a
post about a $30 electric skillet they use for prototyping SMD PC
boards. I've tried the method--heat gun on the back of the board and
it works, but I have yet to try the electric skillet.

Don't try mounting SMD LEDs that way or you'll turn them into
Dark-Emitting Axial Diodes. Inductors are a problem, too.

Well, I just tried it. Yes, I know--but sometimes you gotta pee on the
electric fence for yourself. No LED worked at all. I didn't bother
metering the resistors, I probably should have.

Resistors will take quite a lot of punishment but it might be
worthwhile checking them too. Any silicon devices will be far more
sensitive than the resistors. You might check connections, too (to
see if the soldering worked at all).

I'll cut another board and give things a try again. It sounds like you
and Markem have some experience, any suggestions? Will drying the LEDs
somehow help?

I wouldn't use a skillet. A lot of people have good luck with toaster
ovens. LEDs are a special case, though. The melting point of the
package is close to the solder melting point. The temperature profile
(time vs. temperature) matters a lot. I'd suggest placing and
soldering LEDs by hand.

FWIW, I'm cutting the traces with a CNC mill, so my traces are a good
.030" taller than the rest of the board.

Try buffing the board with a green Scotch Brite pad. It'll knock down
any burrs on the traces and polish it nice and pretty. ;-)

wrote in :

On 11 Jun 2017 17:54:14 GMT, Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
Well, I just tried it. Yes, I know--but sometimes you gotta pee on the
electric fence for yourself. No LED worked at all. I didn't bother
metering the resistors, I probably should have.

Resistors will take quite a lot of punishment but it might be
worthwhile checking them too. Any silicon devices will be far more
sensitive than the resistors. You might check connections, too (to
see if the soldering worked at all).

Argh... My test bed failed. I've got a useful little thing that's a 9V
battery holder with a 1k resistor soldered to it. Unfortunately, the
crimp failed and was inconsistently passing power.

I only had 6 poorly soldered LEDs out of 24, and after fixing them they
all light!

Moral of the story (and why I'm posting):
Occasionally verify your test equipment works properly!

*trim*

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!