Robert!

I am going to see a potential new customer, my veterinarian. She called
me yesterday about building some wall cabinets for her clinic. Oddly
she makes house calls and noticed my furniture when she was here about 2
years ago.

Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do
you know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New building,
probably 2 years old in a strip center.

Thanks

Leon

Leon wrote:
Robert!

I am going to see a potential new customer, my veterinarian. She called
me yesterday about building some wall cabinets for her clinic. Oddly
she makes house calls and noticed my furniture when she was here about 2
years ago.

Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do
you know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New building,
probably 2 years old in a strip center.


**** Leon - I can help you! We'll rent a welder and in a few weeks we
can have it all just nice. Very affordable - just ask me - I'll
reassure you.

Don't know about your codes down there but up here code does not
necessarily require steel studs in a strip mall. Very common to see
wood studs. Somewhat depends on the firewall separation between the spaces.

Wood studs would not preclude my initial statement though. We'd just
have to make sure to weld to the sheet rock screws. A tad slower
because of the precision involved, but I'm sure we can work that out. I
would have to charge extra though to run additional sheetrock screws in
to make sure they fall where I need them...

Because you are a friend, I'll even go so far as to throw the spot
painting of the welds at no extra charge!


--
-Mike-

First, I don't know how you could beat Mike's offer. Sounds pretty stout to me!

On the other hand, a couple of things to consider. When you have access to the other side of the wall, or if you have access to the wall before sheet rock installation (if this is a remodel) the fire code will allow you to install blocking, usually 2X6 between the studs at the proper height to catch your attachment rails. Screw to the blocking.

But i
f the walls are closed (your cabs are an add), there are two different ways to handle it that I use. You need to drill an exploratory hole in the sheet rock to see if it is one layer of 5/8" Firex, or two layers of 1/2". Different code applications in the buidling's area will determine what is used as well as whether the walls are fire blocking. One of our local burgs that was swallowed by San Antonio requires two layers of 5/8" Firex between lease spaces.

To hang uppers, I strip out the walls with 3/4" B/C ply cut into 8" strips. I glue the strips on the walls with plenty of Liquid Nails Heavy Duty adhesive and three screws long enough to penetrate the ply, sheet rock and side of the stud. I put in three screws per stud, pre-drilling the plywood (only) and use the fine thread sheet rock screws so they will bite the metal. If you pre-drill it is easier to mount your strips, but most important you can feel when the screw bites the stud and stop before you strip out the hole in the stud. With no pre-drill it's almost impossible to tell when to stop driving.

Spreading the load over 8" really gives you some holding power, even for really heavy cabinets. As we discussed before, I cut the strips 1/4" short on the length, and hold them down 1/4" top and bottom. Vertical edges are covered with a molding to cover the gap.

Using that method you can string line your walls for flat, and simply cut out or wedge out your plywood as needed to get your walls dead flat. For poorly built walls that's a life saver as the multiple layered fire code walls can get pretty bumpy. This method also works well if you have a wood wall that doesn't present an acceptable substrate.

The base cabs are different as you have to worry about counter tops. If you furr them out for a 3/4" attachment strip, then a post formed laminate top will not work unless you back the top away from the wall (ugly!) leaving a 3/4" gap. Since they hold no weight, it is easy enough to secure these directly to the metal studs behind sheet rock. In this case, I apply the glue to the cabinet back's attachment strip after a dry fit and then run up a couple of screws per stud.

With all the finish outs I have done, I have never had a cabinet pull from the walls using that detail. But I have had plenty of problems with "moly bolts", toggle bolts, plastic anchors, tap-ins, sheet rock anchors of all types, adhesives,and any of the newest latest and greatest ideas. So that's how I came up with the detail.

Hope that helps!

Robert

wrote:
First, I don't know how you could beat Mike's offer. Sounds pretty stout to me!

On the other hand, a couple of things to consider. When you have access
to the other side of the wall, or if you have access to the wall before
sheet rock installation (if this is a remodel) the fire code will allow
you to install blocking, usually 2X6 between the studs at the proper
height to catch your attachment rails. Screw to the blocking.

But i
f the walls are closed (your cabs are an add), there are two different
ways to handle it that I use. You need to drill an exploratory hole in
the sheet rock to see if it is one layer of 5/8" Firex, or two layers of
1/2". Different code applications in the buidling's area will determine
what is used as well as whether the walls are fire blocking. One of our
local burgs that was swallowed by San Antonio requires two layers of 5/8"
Firex between lease spaces.

To hang uppers, I strip out the walls with 3/4" B/C ply cut into 8"
strips. I glue the strips on the walls with plenty of Liquid Nails Heavy
Duty adhesive and three screws long enough to penetrate the ply, sheet
rock and side of the stud. I put in three screws per stud, pre-drilling
the plywood (only) and use the fine thread sheet rock screws so they will
bite the metal. If you pre-drill it is easier to mount your strips, but
most important you can feel when the screw bites the stud and stop before
you strip out the hole in the stud. With no pre-drill it's almost
impossible to tell when to stop driving.

Spreading the load over 8" really gives you some holding power, even for
really heavy cabinets. As we discussed before, I cut the strips 1/4"
short on the length, and hold them down 1/4" top and bottom. Vertical
edges are covered with a molding to cover the gap.

Using that method you can string line your walls for flat, and simply cut
out or wedge out your plywood as needed to get your walls dead flat. For
poorly built walls that's a life saver as the multiple layered fire code
walls can get pretty bumpy. This method also works well if you have a
wood wall that doesn't present an acceptable substrate.

The base cabs are different as you have to worry about counter tops. If
you furr them out for a 3/4" attachment strip, then a post formed
laminate top will not work unless you back the top away from the wall
(ugly!) leaving a 3/4" gap. Since they hold no weight, it is easy enough
to secure these directly to the metal studs behind sheet rock. In this
case, I apply the glue to the cabinet back's attachment strip after a dry
fit and then run up a couple of screws per stud.

With all the finish outs I have done, I have never had a cabinet pull
from the walls using that detail. But I have had plenty of problems with
"moly bolts", toggle bolts, plastic anchors, tap-ins, sheet rock anchors
of all types, adhesives,and any of the newest latest and greatest
ideas. So that's how I came up with the detail.

Hope that helps!

Robert






Thank you ! I may very well only be the provider and not the installer.
I really don't want to get into a liability situation. But I'll see what
she wants this afternoon. Thanks again.

On 3/17/2016 9:02 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
Robert!

I am going to see a potential new customer, my veterinarian. She called
me yesterday about building some wall cabinets for her clinic. Oddly
she makes house calls and noticed my furniture when she was here about 2
years ago.

Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do
you know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New building,
probably 2 years old in a strip center.


**** Leon - I can help you! We'll rent a welder and in a few weeks we
can have it all just nice. Very affordable - just ask me - I'll
reassure you.

Don't know about your codes down there but up here code does not
necessarily require steel studs in a strip mall. Very common to see
wood studs. Somewhat depends on the firewall separation between the
spaces.

Wood studs would not preclude my initial statement though. We'd just
have to make sure to weld to the sheet rock screws. A tad slower
because of the precision involved, but I'm sure we can work that out. I
would have to charge extra though to run additional sheetrock screws in
to make sure they fall where I need them...

Because you are a friend, I'll even go so far as to throw the spot
painting of the welds at no extra charge!


Thank you? ;~)

Mike Marlow wrote in
:

Don't know about your codes down there but up here code does not
necessarily require steel studs in a strip mall. Very common to see
wood studs. Somewhat depends on the firewall separation between the
spaces.

Steel studs seem to have become ubiquitous here in S Fla for
ground level construction - wood only seems to be used on
upper floors (*). As Houston has a similar climate, I wouldn't
be surprised if the same is true there.

I hate the damn things.

John

(* note that in S Fla, this is only for interior walls, as
framed exterior walls are not allowed. CBS only.)

In article ,
says...

Mike Marlow wrote in
:

Don't know about your codes down there but up here code does not
necessarily require steel studs in a strip mall. Very common to see
wood studs. Somewhat depends on the firewall separation between the
spaces.

Steel studs seem to have become ubiquitous here in S Fla for
ground level construction - wood only seems to be used on
upper floors (*). As Houston has a similar climate, I wouldn't
be surprised if the same is true there.

I hate the damn things.

John

(* note that in S Fla, this is only for interior walls, as
framed exterior walls are not allowed. CBS only.)

Could you be kind enough to cite a source for that statement?

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:

In article ,
says...

(* note that in S Fla, this is only for interior walls, as
framed exterior walls are not allowed. CBS only.)

Could you be kind enough to cite a source for that statement?

I assume you're referring to the above, which is actually a
mis-statement. CBS and precast concrete are allowed.

Anyway, you'll find it in he

http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/to...rida/Building%
20Code/index.html

altho it takes some searching, because that's the code for
all of Florida and you have to look for the parts that
pertain to the "High Velocity Hurricane Zone".

CBS construction here is more complicated that other places,
too, because you have to fill the blocks after the wall is
built, and provide rebar in the wall to tie into the tiebeam
that's poured at the top of the wall.

The history of that is wood frame construction was allowed
up until Hurricane Andrew, when it was observed to fail
completely and catastrophically. After that block construction
was required, in the normal manner, until sometime in the late
90s when it was discovered that a reinforced roof could break
the tiebeam off the top of the wall in a hurricane. Then they
required the wall be filled, and tied with rebar into the
tiebeam.

We have a lot of unique building rules. No staples in the
roof, for example - everything must be nailed.

John

John McCoy wrote:

CBS construction here is more complicated that other places,
too, because you have to fill the blocks after the wall is
built, and provide rebar in the wall to tie into the tiebeam
that's poured at the top of the wall.

Rebar in and fill every cell of every block? Or just at corners, openings,
etc.?

"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
Robert!

I am going to see a potential new customer, my veterinarian. She called
me yesterday about building some wall cabinets for her clinic. Oddly she
makes house calls and noticed my furniture when she was here about 2 years
ago.

Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do you
know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New building,
probably 2 years old in a strip center.

Steel studs? That's easy. MAGNETS!! Just mount some powerful neodymium
magnets in the cabinets and just place them on the wall. Nothing could be
simpler. You may need to hire some extra muscle to maneuver them into
place.

Glad to help. ;-)

On 3/18/2016 8:29 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:


"Leon" lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in message
...
Robert!

I am going to see a potential new customer, my veterinarian. She
called me yesterday about building some wall cabinets for her clinic.
Oddly she makes house calls and noticed my furniture when she was here
about 2 years ago.

Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do
you know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New
building, probably 2 years old in a strip center.

Steel studs? That's easy. MAGNETS!! Just mount some powerful
neodymium magnets in the cabinets and just place them on the wall.
Nothing could be simpler. You may need to hire some extra muscle to
maneuver them into place.

Glad to help. ;-)



I kind'a like that idea! LOL

On 3/17/2016 6:44 PM, Leon wrote:
Robert!

Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do
you know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New building,
probably 2 years old in a strip center.

FWIW, What I do to install blocking for new cabinets on buildings with
metal stud walls:

Buy a few 1 5/8" metal studs, cut them into 6" to 8" pieces (to make u
shaped channels).

If drywall is already up, remove a 6" to 8" horizontal strip of drywall
where you want the cabinet blocking.

Screw the resultant "u channel" (bottom of the u facing each stud) with
sheet metal screws, one to each existing upright metal stud, between
them, and flush with the front edge of each, and at the height you want
your blocking.

You now have two metal "flanges", one one each side of the opening)
facing you to which you can screw (inside the channel) either 3/4"
plywood or blocking of your choice.

Replace the previously removed drywall if desired.

Takes longer to describe than to do. Quick, EZ, strong, very little fuss
and mess, particularly in a commercial setting.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 3/17/2016 6:44 PM, Leon wrote:
Robert!

I am going to see a potential new customer, my veterinarian. She called
me yesterday about building some wall cabinets for her clinic. Oddly
she makes house calls and noticed my furniture when she was here about 2
years ago.

Anyway I'm betting the walls in the clinic have steel studs. What do
you know about hanging things on a wall with steel studs? New building,
probably 2 years old in a strip center.

Thanks

Leon


Problem Solved. I visited my vet, her husband, and her father. They
are totally willing to install the cabinets themselves. In fact I think
they actually prefer to do this themselves as this is going to be in
their computer room. They all watched the building and their portion
being built so they know what's what inside the walls, and they do have
steel studs. Apparently dad witnessed all of the other cabinets that
were hung and he seemed to remember it being done as Nailshooter
indicated, 3/4" plywood glued to the wall and predrilled holes at the
stud locations through the plywood only and fine thread DW screws into
the steel studs. Anyway I will only have to build the cabinets and
possibly a desk after this portion of the job.

Thanks to all for your suggestions, except Mike! LOL. At least you
make me laugh.

On 3/18/2016 4:46 PM, Leon wrote:
Apparently dad witnessed all of the other cabinets that were hung and he
seemed to remember it being done as Nailshooter indicated, 3/4" plywood
glued to the wall and predrilled holes at the stud locations through the
plywood only and fine thread DW screws into the steel studs. Anyway I
will only have to build the cabinets and possibly a desk after this
portion of the job.

If you're going that route, and seeing how it is a commercial space, now
would be a perfect time to take a second, angle the bottom back tack
strips appropriately before assembling the cabinets, and introduce them
to installing cabinets with French cleats ...

That way they could take possibly the best made cabinets they'll likely
ever own with them if they move.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
..
If you're going that route, and seeing how it is a commercial space, now
would be a perfect time to take a second, angle the bottom back tack
strips appropriately before assembling the cabinets, and introduce them
to installing cabinets with French cleats ...

That way they could take possibly the best made cabinets they'll likely
ever own with them if they move.

Actually, that's and excellent thought. Workmanship like that is almost impossible to come by these days, and no doubt they cabinets will be well made enough to take to the next business location (or home!)should there be a remodel or relocation.

Robert
..

On 3/19/2016 1:17 AM, wrote:
On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
.
If you're going that route, and seeing how it is a commercial space, now
would be a perfect time to take a second, angle the bottom back tack
strips appropriately before assembling the cabinets, and introduce them
to installing cabinets with French cleats ...

That way they could take possibly the best made cabinets they'll likely
ever own with them if they move.

Actually, that's and excellent thought. Workmanship like that is almost impossible to come by these days, and no doubt they cabinets will be well made enough to take to the next business location (or home!)should there be a remodel or relocation.

Robert
.



Changing the subject a bit. Robert, what do you recommend priming and
or painting the MDO surface with?

On Saturday, March 19, 2016 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Changing the subject a bit. Robert, what do you recommend priming and
or painting the MDO surface with?

MDO is known for its very occasional outgassing under your finish. This isn't a problem as long as you apply an oil or solvent based primer. If I had no spray equipment or it wasn't feasible to spray, I would use this stuff as it has a long "open time".

http://goo.gl/BjCtp0

It can be rolled out with a small foam roller and/or brushed. It needs to be put on thin, and is not for any kind of grain filling. One even coat is all you need, even with the bare wood veneer. You can spot primer defects though without the fear of blending.

If spraying, this is my favorite:

http://goo.gl/8m3uIq

I have shot gallons of that stuff and love it. It is super "hot" and will dry in about 30 minutes for any recoats or touchups you might have. You can top coat in as little as an hour (they say) or two hours (I say). Spray it thin and it adheres great and dries hard. Most guys don't like this as they have to work very fast with this stuff and it will foul your guns if you don't handle it properly. Like I said, I love it. On small cabinet jobs, I can spray all my primer in the morning and all of my paint in the afternoon. A proper, sprayed factory finish in a day!

I like Sherwin Williams oil based enamels as well as Benjamin Moore's commercial line. I would place them dead even, but I use SW because I have an account there and I am used to using their products. They also have great customer support that in my experience has been knowledgeable about their products.

The SW "long oils" will dry out (if properly applied) looking like they were sprayed. This is a favorite of mine, sprayed/rolled/brushed.

http://goo.gl/jmQKl4

It's expensive, but really good stuff. Sprayed, it looks like a factory finish from a spray shop when applied to new wood. You will surprise yourself at how well this "lays out" when brushing or rolling. I have brushed out this product on moldings that looked sprayed when I finished, which surprised me as you know I have never blown my own horn about my brush work. The right brush and technique will give excellent results.

Absolutely run away from anything Valspar, Olympic, Devoe, and most of the other brands you get at different outlets. Their enamels (and for that matter, most of their products) are awful.

I actually like HD's latex enamels a lot, but their oil based enamel doesn't flow well off the brush and it doesn't lay out nearly as nice as the SW stuff. As a word of advice if they go to SW, do NOT get the lower priced enamels, stick with "Pro Classic". Their lower priced stuff is poor performing and requires many coats to get what you end up with after a couple of coats of Pro Classic.

So, one thin coat of primer if manually applied. Two if you use a thin coats of sprayed fast dry. Two coats of paint, regardless of application method, applied the manufacturer's recommendations.

Robert

On 3/18/2016 5:38 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/18/2016 4:46 PM, Leon wrote:
Apparently dad witnessed all of the other cabinets that were hung and he
seemed to remember it being done as Nailshooter indicated, 3/4" plywood
glued to the wall and predrilled holes at the stud locations through the
plywood only and fine thread DW screws into the steel studs. Anyway I
will only have to build the cabinets and possibly a desk after this
portion of the job.

If you're going that route, and seeing how it is a commercial space, now
would be a perfect time to take a second, angle the bottom back tack
strips appropriately before assembling the cabinets, and introduce them
to installing cabinets with French cleats ...

That way they could take possibly the best made cabinets they'll likely
ever own with them if they move.



Good idea and maybe 3 separate cabinets. they want to fill most of an
8' wall with a 2'deep and 2' tall cabinet.